Open 834: Trust Fall - Game Over

[Tammy]

Yo.

So when I confirmed this morning, Prism and Enchant had already confirmed so they're the team.

Go me.

[Tammy]

Greetings and Salutations Lady Tammy,


I am glad that we have the opportunity to meet again - hopefully under better terms this time as the last time we met was not the best circumstances. It has been a long time since that fateful evening in the smoky antechamber and I am a reformed bear. I promise that this time I have only the best of intentions.

I know you may have doubts about my alignment but I assure you that this time I am aligned with the town and I will endeavour to prove myself to you with deeds and words both fair and noble such that I may win your hand in this dance.

I have heard a mutual acquaintance remark that you are perhaps the kindest and fairest of all the ladies who grace the court and have no difficulty at all proving both your alignment and hunting down the enemies who would do us harm - possibly even in the top 90%. I hope you are as aligned with this fair town as I am and that we might eventually reach a point in the game where you might trust me enough to allow me to sweep you off your feet.

Deep Bow

Oh (s)pooky you sly charming devil you. (My computer autocorrected it to spooky. It might just fit!)

Keep the sweet nothings coming and maybe just maybe I'll get over my inherint mistrust of my ability to trust you.

[Tammy]

You were town in our last meeting though!

I did, however, sit in a huff for the first two days refusing to acknowledge you might be town due to seeing your great ability to lie in our previous two meetings.

(My reasoning for the paranoia was silly.)

[Tammy]

milord

[Tammy]

Hi Wisdom!

Are you guys joking?

[Tammy]

oh okay!

My inner contrarian was about to come out and look like a total dope.

[Tammy]

Voting is overrated anyway.

But! You can still death tunnel.

[Tammy]

kay

Tammy is scum, never changing my mind

Please don't death tunnel me. Whatever will I do?

[Tammy]

I've never seen the trolly side of Tammy before

I think I am in love.

I'm just trying to be worthy, m'lord.

[Tammy]

I have not thought about how I want to play this game at all. I didn't plan on playing mafia at all for a little while longer, but Prism, so here I am. Also the wiki says that when someone says they trust you, the person must reciprocate, which um had me confused and I thought that mafia then couldn't ask someone to trust. But that's not the case where you have to reciprocate, but I only learned that this morning when the rules were posted, which I read so go me don't be too shocked that I did this.

Anyway, I figured I'd see how things played out and started and figure out how to play it from there.

[Tammy]

i decided before i signed up that I would try to win Tammy's hand in dance or stay behind with her if I believe she is like mafia to keep her company.

>>

[Tammy]

I've had many, many thoughts on how to play this game: I've considered declaring that I will not trust or accept a trust at all, I've considered declaring the same but until 4 way. I haven't really arrived at a final answer — it's going to hinge largely on the other players — but the one guarantee is that I will not be exiting early. I will not accept any proposals prior to Day 3, and will adamantly resist any attempts to compel me to accept.

Can't believe i trustfelled scum for 2 min 35 second 302 miniseconds.

I wouldn't accept as scum until solo so don't worry.

Why not?

[Tammy]

i am hoping with all my heart that you rolled town as I did but if you did not I promise to stay behind and play you beautiful songs on youtube to keep you company <3

If I were scum, you don't know how much I would appreciate this. Your presence in games is enjoyable, even when you're a murderer, but here as scum I wouldn't have the sweet release of an early elimination when I made myself obvious. I'd just have to sit around waiting til the end. So, yeah the company would be nice.

I am town though!

[Tammy]

Why not?

petapan isn't here so I can't own him

I was just wondering because I thought you preferred going out first?

[Tammy]

i am hoping with all my heart that you rolled town as I did but if you did not I promise to stay behind and play you beautiful songs on youtube to keep you company <3

If I were scum, you don't know how much I would appreciate this. Your presence in games is enjoyable, even when you're a murderer, but here as scum I wouldn't have the sweet release of an early elimination when I made myself obvious. I'd just have to sit around waiting til the end. So, yeah the company would be nice.

I am town though!

Tammy I can say without question that if you were scum here that you have wrapped your hands around my fragile heart and that I am quite helpless against your charm and wit.

>>

There is a part of me that thinks that you know how untrusting and paranoid I can be and wouldn't want to spark that, so maybe you are town.

But that's a really stupid reason and I'll shake that one off.

Spoiler: For Lady Tammy

I liked the song!

[Tammy]

Anyway, I figured I'd see how things played out and started and figure out how to play it from there.

I'm really curious about this. Maybe you're having fun horsing around with Pooky but there isn't really a solve intent.

If I were scum, you don't know how much I would appreciate this. Your presence in games is enjoyable, even when you're a murderer, but here as scum I wouldn't have the sweet release of an early elimination when I made myself obvious. I'd just have to sit around waiting til the end. So, yeah the company would be nice.

I am town though!

This makes my head tilt a bit, too, because while you don't prefer scum your scumgame is not weak.

I'm not solving right now. I'm not really one to attempt to solve in the first few pages of the game. I don't like to do it, nor am I good at it. I typically think most people look scummy in the first few pages of the game because I can't tell the difference between people pretending to solve and people trying to get the game started. Unless something really jumps out at me, like your entrance in Warehouse 13, I pretty much view everything early game as neutral noise that I'll look back at later when I actually get serious. I used to try because I thought I needed to be aggressive to be town read, but I hated it, so now I play in a way that I enjoy and is comfortable for me.

I get that it can be annoying and I look scummy for it to people who aren't used to my early approach (and even some who are used to it), but once I get started that concern usually goes away. Usually.

I'm also working and just popping in here to shoot the shit every few minutes or so as a little break.

Thank you for thinking my scum game isn't weak. I will admit that I think my scum game is weaker than others do, but other than the flying scumsman which I hydra'd in last year, I have not drawn scum in 4? years? While I think I have a terrible scum game in general, I do not expect my first time drawing scum solo in four years to be anything but me obvscumming immediately and being able to do nothing about it.

Was I right in remembering that you preferred to go out first in most scum teams? What would be different about this game than that? (Or was that the joke you were referring to?)

[Tammy]

Never mind you answered that last one.

[Tammy]

Elaborating on my first line: By "solve intent" I mean you haven't really shown much interest in the meaning of interactions or in poking at places beyond the theory question to me. Perhaps that's my fault for shrugging it off rather than making my arrogance more transparent; the genuine answer would be that I have full confidence that I can get townread whenever I want and would prefer to let my partner go first.

I understood what you meant and was expecting you to call me out for it.

The theory question wasn't so much of a theory question as me trying to understand your mindset. That's not quite right, but I've drank a lot of tea and too much caffeine makes me tweaky and that's the best I got. I can't quite word what exactly I was looking for with that question or if it would have helped me in any way, but I'm pretty sure you've stated before that you prefer to be the first one to go in a mafia team which I thought was interesting because you do have a strong scum game. So, you saying that you would prefer to go last felt a little incongruous with that previous statement and I wondered if it was due to the game mechanic or if it could be alignment relevant.

[Tammy]

uh oh Duckie don't get yourself banned!

[Tammy]

I'm not reading his posts

@Moderator please check if this is allowed under site rules

Oh I forgot you had him on ignore. My bad.

[Tammy]

This playerlist is insane

Tammy, how do you think you'd be approaching the start of this right now if you were scum, that you're not doing now (if anything)?

I thought you were prism. I'm going to get you guys confused fair warning. I don't think I've seen you in forever!

Hmmm. I'm not sure. One thing that used to get me caught is not seeming appropriately happy to draw town, so I started trying to fake that happiness and energy at the start. I might do that? I don't know. There's nobody here that has that beginning of the game meta for me, so I probably wouldn't? I might make a few more posts that look appropriately solvey in some fashion? Just because my strength as scum is only as good as how long I can go without getting widespread suspicion. I'm not all that great at shaking off suspicion once it starts if it starts early unless I know specifically how to manipulate the person who suspects me.

I don't know if that makes sense. So I might have used a couple of those things, but not sure if I would have.

[Tammy]

I think everyone involved knows you guys are joking

[Tammy]

the lesson i learned from the last run of this is that even if i get perfect reads people will just ignore me and throw so im not going to give a shit about catching bad guys this time and just focus on convincing tammy that i am very town :2

haven't read the quoted ydr but based on context clues, I feel like I should say hard pocketing one person into mid/lategame was literally Pooky's plan as scum in this setup previously

but then again (based on context clues) this is too overt and funny to actually be a strong indicator of that agenda. I think? someone tell me if I'm right I'm just guessing here

Oh in case this was towards me at all. I've seen Pooky scum a couple times. I know how pockety, sly and charismatic he can be.

[Tammy]

always love it when someone who was just joking around 5 minutes ago jumps to writing a paragraph whenever someone gets an inkling of suspicion

?

Do you have a problem with me answering a couple questions or that I'm wordy?

[Tammy]

I think he's saying your reaction is scum!indicative

No, really?

[Tammy]

That doesn't answer the question.

[Tammy]

lol

Dude if I were scum here I'd already be impressed with myself.

[Tammy]

Ah so mafmen is one of those super cool individuals who goes I suspect you therefore I won't answer a question you ask.

tsk tsk

Anyway the reason why I ask is because why would I ignore someone asking me questions? Whether or not I was joking around? What does it mean for someone to joke around and then be serious when addressed seriously? How is that mafia indicative to you?

I'm trying to figure out your alignment and see if these are actual real thoughts you hold or rubbish to throw shade in a really weak way.

[Tammy]

I think you guys are weird and giving both wisdom and prism too easy of a pass there.

[Tammy]

I think you guys are weird and giving both wisdom and prism too easy of a pass there.

wisdom did post after being trusted

He did, but did he see your post for sure? And did he know that it counted for sure?

No way am I writing wisdom off as town off of that.

But I actually don't have any town reads right now, so I'm just going to poo poo the lot of you.

[Tammy]

Hey worst - what did you like about prism's early scum lean?

[Tammy]

I think you guys are weird and giving both wisdom and prism too easy of a pass there.

wisdom did post after being trusted

He did, but did he see your post for sure? And did he know that it counted for sure?

No way am I writing wisdom off as town off of that.

But I actually don't have any town reads right now, so I'm just going to poo poo the lot of you.

just for clarity

Okay, so trust thingy cannot be used as a thing to stir up content or pressure

Do you guys wanna use pseudovotes or something

they caaaaan
it just ends badly

I'm down for pseudovotes

VOTE: wisdom

~45 seconds

Vote counts as Trust here as i remember.

~20 seconds

Dunno feels a bit harder to get reads without some form of pressure

For example my favorite way of reading is to deathtunnel which now I can't do

~45 seconds

UNVOTE:

wisdom was almost certainly pedited by Enchant pointing out that votes meant trust, and would still have had time to vote me back before my lazy phoneposting self got back

Yeah I was watching it in real time. I'm still not going to write wisdom off as town for that.

I've been bit in the ass too many times for writing people off as town off things like that, and I'm not going to do that this game.

[Tammy]

you guys are definitely being too hard on wisdom here
an 'easy pass'? cmon

*shrug*

Now do I think Wisdom, who I think could figure out how to get town reads without voting or death tunneling, would come out with something hokey like "how do I get town reads without voting?" as scum. Maybe not, even joking. But I don't trust that interpretation of mine either.

But I respect his scum game too much to just write him off for not trusting when he could have. He could have either not trusted the rule would be in effect and didn't want to risk it or thought that doing it was too risky.

[Tammy]

See you responded Tammy, have a call in 10 minutes so the rest of the catchup will have to wait a few hours sorry.

I've just spent five hours grading. I'm about to take a break from the computer and get some dinner anyway. See you later.

[Tammy]

i'm like the king of declaring people cleared then changing my mind 30 seconds later and i still don't feel bad for treating wisdom as town until he makes me second guess myself.

this convo doesn't feel very productive

That's fine! I change my mind a lot too, but why wouldn't getting people to talk about the reasoning for their reads and trying to determine if they're real or bs be productive?

[Tammy]

Ah! I wondered if that was it. If that's based on old meta and you were hoping to get an easy town read off of that, I don't really implode anymore. I don't care about the game and how I'm read in the same way anymore.

No matter whether or not I'm having fun, I'll almost always address a serious question asked of me and will fluctuate moods. And I get called out for that particular thing pretty often. I'm used to it, and I expect to get grilled by Prism.

[Tammy]

Dooo iiiiit

[Tammy]

I'm not solving right now. I'm not really one to attempt to solve in the first few pages of the game.

I don't like to do it, nor am I good at it.

I typically think most people look scummy in the first few pages of the game because I can't tell the difference between people pretending to solve and people trying to get the game started. Unless something really jumps out at me, like your entrance in Warehouse 13, I pretty much view everything early game as neutral noise that I'll look back at later when I actually get serious. I used to try because I thought I needed to be aggressive to be town read, but I hated it, so now I play in a way that I enjoy and is comfortable for me.

I am so confused but I guess there is much to learn about a Tammatha. I feel like this is scummy but I will give it more time.

Subject: Smoke-Filled Antechamber [Endgame]

well the process was raelizing i don't actually remember anything about how you play, which made me realize i didn't remember anything you've done this game, which led me to read back on you and realize i don't townread you and i'm not sure why anyone does. i didn't have any serious intentions of attempting to wagon you (i was going giving you and diamondsentinel the "first game off a hiatus" d1 pass regardless of my read), but felt the need to express that read in a visible fashion

I actually expected you to scum read or not town read my early game. I'm not much of an early game solver; I used to try to be but it really didn't fit me, so I settled back into floating through the early game in a more observational way because it's more me. I imagine the reason the people are town reading me has more to do with my scum game and its deficiencies than I'm objectively town right now. (It's sad, but I was out of my scum range on like page 5, for reasons even the people here who know me might not know.) That doesn't matter though because hopefully my town mojo is not completely lost and it'll be cool soon enough.

It’s literally a variation on my stock answer to this question.

[Tammy]

I understood what you meant and

was expecting you to call me out for it.

literally what

The theory question wasn't so much of a theory question as me trying to understand your mindset. That's not quite right, but I've drank a lot of tea and too much caffeine makes me tweaky and that's the best I got. I can't quite word what exactly I was looking for with that question or if it would have helped me in any way, but I'm pretty sure you've stated before that you prefer to be the first one to go in a mafia team which I thought was interesting because you do have a strong scum game. So, you saying that you would prefer to go last felt a little incongruous with that previous statement and I wondered if it was due to the game mechanic or if it could be alignment relevant.

I agree that the incongruity was worth questioning, but do not know how to interpret the response given how wildly offbase some of this has been to me.

While the difference was explained more by the EM vs. MS treatment of my play trust fall is a setup that it doesn't work as well in mechanically, either, as you can't induce town to burn miselims like crazy and instead have to more actively convince them your partner is town.

Two things:

I’m not scumhunting yet. I expect you to call me out for that. I don’t know why that would be confusing. I get called out. I expected you to do it.

I expect to get grilled by you. Regardless of your alignment. Last game I told you what I thought I noticed about how you tend to grill people you’re familiar with. If you’re town you’re going to do it because you’ll want to get the read correct especially at this point when nobody should be townreading me right now. Nobody here knows or understands my mindset well enough to get the correct read at this moment. And it’s possible as scum you might do it to since I already told you that it’s one thing I look for in you. I’m less certain about that last bit though.

I didn’t follow the second part. What’s off base?

[Tammy]

Tammy what should Prism be townreading you for?

I didn’t say that. I don’t think they should. My reasoning for posting that was that it’s literally my stock answer that I’ve given so often it’s not alignment indicative anymore if it ever was. Prism thought a line of it was scummy, to which I could go nub uh or I can be stylish and quote myself

[Tammy]

tammy's thought line of "i wouldn't be good here if scum" and "i'd already be impressed with myself if scum here" seems genuine so she's lean town i think

i don't think scum!tammy would think she did anything good yet

You’re underestimating how terrible I think it will go when I roll scum.

I’d consider this a masterpiece lol

[Tammy]

I've been bit in the ass too many times for writing people off as town off things like that, and I'm not going to do that this game

ok but not even a townlean?

Nope. I pretty much have a healthy dose of suspicion of everyone here right now.

I have a small reason for why wisdom might be town and a small reason for why pooky might be town, but both my reasons are dumb and I don’t trust them.

Probably feel the best about the duck right now…maybe? I liked his last response to me.

[Tammy]

Can you elaborate on what would hypothetically make this a masterpiece?

I’m posting.

[Tammy]

i'm like the king of declaring people cleared then changing my mind 30 seconds later and i still don't feel bad for treating wisdom as town until he makes me second guess myself.

this convo doesn't feel very productive

That's fine! I change my mind a lot too, but why wouldn't getting people to talk about the reasoning for their reads and trying to determine if they're real or bs be productive?

i'm not really sure if there's any way for me to meaningfully evaluate my reads off this convo
has it helped you read me at all?

I’m probably should have but I didn’t realize you were meaning you specifically with it being unproductive. And my interest was more on mafmen than you.

It didn’t, no, but I do like this question to me at the end.

[Tammy]

i'd be lowkey disappointed if the scum team was just infinity+klick

Do you think cookie cutter is town?

[Tammy]

My tell on that was a work in progress anyway based on your interactions with nacho, chara and peta. I just expected a little grilling. I don’t think I’m an entirely easy read for you early game and probably not until I have some meat. You had a healthy bit of suspicion on me in warehouse 13 until I had my ranty ragish wall of reads.

Regardless I don’t have much in the way of reads to discuss. My post a few ago is basically where I’m at. I don’t have any real leans one way or the other and I expect the nature of this setup means I’ll be extra careful on my reads. Pooky is weirding me out a bit and I’m trying to determine if the pocket attempt is too overt or if that’s just pooky.

[Tammy]

*too overt to be scum

[Tammy]

Good we can all be squinty eyed bastids shooting eye daggers at each other then!

[Tammy]

But then I wouldn’t know what he says about me. Rule #1 of the self-absorbed is to always read what someone says about you.

[Tammy]

I guess part of my hesitation here is that so much of this is self-facing, and reacting to my wrong expectations to ameliorate me. There's no weaponization of the expectations you have for me, and that throws me. I was surprised to see you drop the explanation about my preference so quickly. It is a perceptive and clear divergence.

Like I'm astounded that you took the preference seriously enough to remember it and you make the connection. No one else onsite even

remembers

the preference let alone uses it.

I'm not ameliorating you; I'm just existing. I mean maybe I am? But it's not purposeful. I expect you to question me and you are. I'm sorry if I'm being weird; I'm tired, don't feel all that great, and am in a bit of a weird headspace being here today. I don't know that without that if I'd be much different, maybe I'd have more energy I don't know. I don't think I'm being very off but maybe I am.

I'm not sure why you think I would weaponize any expectations I have of you right when the game begins considering I have a tendency to observe these things for a bit anyway. The preference that you're talking about might be a bigger thing to me if we were in a normal game. The game mechanic alone goes a long way in negating that very preference. In fact, even in asking it I didn't think it really mattered much because my two pieces were is prism doing the puffery thing or does the game mechanic negate it. As far as I'm concerned, that's something I can't differentiate as it stands right now because the game mechanic exists and your approach could be very different. I'm sure if I wanted to look solvey I could make a bigger deal out of it than it was, but I'm not scum and for me it was a passing thought that stuck out enough for me to ask but not make much of.

[Tammy]

Nope. I pretty much have a healthy dose of suspicion of everyone here right now.

imo you're being too paranoid. just because you've falsely cleared people for similar reasons in the past doesn't make them invalid.

I'm not paranoid at all. Not yet. We're under 20 pages in the first 24 hours of the game, and nobody has done anything that to me reads very town for any decent reason. That's just how it goes sometimes.

[Tammy]

Lady Tammy could you explain the feelings/headspace you were in when you made this following post?

Spoiler: Shockingly Scandalous

Dooo iiiiit

I was in a very amused headspace!

[Tammy]

Lady Tammy could you explain the feelings/headspace you were in when you made this following post?

Spoiler: Shockingly Scandalous

Dooo iiiiit

I was in a very amused headspace!

I was flattered that y'all were talking about me and whether or not I could be trusted such that you wanted to test it.

[Tammy]

did you think I would trust you just because you asked?

I'm pockited but i'm not like

that

pockited

yet

besides leaving with you now would mean I can't like flirt with you anymore :<

No I didn't think anyone would actually do it. It just amused me to kind of taunt you guys about it.

[Tammy]

whats everyones read on cookie?
i feel even with those 3 posts fae has* made some of the most ai posts yet

ebwop

cookie's posts felt a bit stilted at parts like the I'm watching you bit and the but how well do you know each other thing. Without more posts to see if that's just their natural tone and writing style though they're just mild pings.

[Tammy]

whats everyones read on cookie?
i feel even with those 3 posts fae has* made some of the most ai posts yet

ebwop

cookie's posts felt a bit stilted at parts like the I'm watching you bit and the but how well do you know each other thing. Without more posts to see if that's just their natural tone and writing style though they're just mild pings.

hmm okay yeah i can see totally see how the tone there can ping somebody

idk if im allowed to make a read like this but judging by faer join date i think it can get passed off as awkward newbie vocabulary

No, I think that's entirely fair. Could be a newbie awkwardness, could just be writing style in general, could be not having much to comment on, but I don't see the towniness off the bat that you guys see.

[Tammy]

I'm getting a total kick out of pooky's alt hunting!

[Tammy]

Also y'all my cat is snoring so loud right now it's so cute.

[Tammy]

No, I think that's entirely fair. Could be a newbie awkwardness, could just be writing style in general, could be not having much to comment on, but I don't see the towniness off the bat that you guys see.

I think when people use a reason to townread someone that's so convoluted/weird/notgreat that it's unlikely to be "faked" then it's probably just true.

scum tend to want their reasoning to be like "good"

Which town read did you think fit that bill?

And considering the possibility that cookie is not an alt and is rather new, do you really think that reasoning holds?

(Also, clearly you've never seen me as scum. I've given some stinker reasoning for reads.)

[Tammy]

oh i was talking about the scumread on duckie lol

i think it applies even more for scumreads lol

'the worst' initial scumping for claiming to not know the rules on page 3, when they had been referenced a couple times already by that point - potentially tricking someone into an early OMGUS trust thing. and also repeated claims Enchant is town, with no reason given.

a couple mildest of mild townpings. Liked Pookythemagicalbears opening appeal, felt genuine and performative where scum might worry about seeming needy. nothing else for now but I'm watching you.

This? The worst scum read is rather run of the mill, the kind that people and scum make all the time because it's an easy thing to point to in the thread and say I distrust this. The part of this that I do like is the tricking someone into an early omgus trust tell part. I liked it because it didn't really make all that much sense, nice infusion of attempting to interpret an action.

I didn't like the town read on you, mostly the performative part but giving a reason for why that was a mild town ping and then I didn't like the follow up but I'm watching you thing.

Cookie could be town, sure, but I don't follow your reasoning.

[Tammy]

Even I wondered at that double post.

[Tammy]

I was hoping that Prism had roped peta into playing this game too.

[Tammy]

I think "ameliorating" has a more scum-POV spin on it over a neutral one. You're just casually defying expectations and explaining defying them, which is definitely existing and casual but is very difficult for me to correctly sort.

I like defying expectations! It means I'm not totally boring yet.

Sorry that I'm being difficult. I think I'll be easier to sort as the days go by. If not, I guess it will be interesting.

[Tammy]

I was hoping that Prism had roped peta into playing this game too.

it's ok i will do a peta impersonation this game if you prefer him to me

imitations are never as good as the real thing!

[Tammy]

lol I've missed you duckie

[Tammy]

I was hoping that Prism had roped peta into playing this game too.

it's ok i will do a peta impersonation this game if you prefer him to me

imitations are never as good as the real thing!

Lebron James is not good enough to carry Larry Bird's Jockstrap much less be in the same conversation when talking about the Mount Rushmore of Basketball Players.

For one thing, Lebron has always been a terrible shooter, the man relies on his physical talents to get to the basket - relying on the soft rules of today's NBA rather than learning the sweet shotmaking skills of the 80s.

If Lebron had played in the Larry Bird years, he would've found himself beaten up to a pulp every night and there's no way in hell he'd be driving uncontested to the bucket 10-20 times a game.

This is great! Basketball is perhaps my least favorite sport, but I do know the names of the people involved.

[Tammy]

haha

I had to look up what the lucky star character song thing is. I was like Madonna what?

[Tammy]

Grill away!

I'm starting to get punchy and should probably pass out.

[Tammy]

there's more posts about Tammy than anyone else in the game lol

heh

RedCoyote once remarked that in almost every mafia game I somehow become the center of attention, no matter what I'm doing or not doing. I'm not sure if that's true but this reminded me of that. Although once coming home from work to find a game that had started while I was at work was having a serious discussion as to what it meant that I hadn't posted yet was both amusing and annoying.

Anyway, I kept up-ish while at work today, I'll get actual caught up shortly.

[Tammy]

On average, yeah? I think she's more likely to dislike the softclear as scum. Especially since she laid out the strongest argument for the softclear being accurate IMO.

Part of this could definitely be a playstyle clash between how I view the game and how she does. But I think she's more likely scum than average out of it.

What argument did I lay out for the soft clear being accurate?

[Tammy]

I lean towards Tammy's argument against Wisdom-town being scum-motivated
And I didn't love the contrast between her answering my self-meta question with 'idunno', followed shortly by talking about how she'd already be proud if she were scum here

?

They're not even the same thing though. I mean they're in the same ballpark, but this is like telling me that because I like the tanginess of an orange I have to like the tartness of a lemon ballpark. But they're two different things.

You asked me a counterfactual. How would I approach the game as scum. I'm not scum, so I didn't consider how I'd approach it. I gave you what generic things I did in the past when scum as what I might do. But I don't know. I took a long break from mafia and haven't played solo scum in four years, and the only time I did draw scum was last year in a hydra which is really different. I haven't had to consider how I would approach a game as scum in a long ass time, so I just do not know.

I do, however, believe that when I do finally draw scum it will be atrocious. I'm kind of terrified of what that will look like and how terribly I'll let down my team. Maybe it won't go as badly as I'm expecting it to, but me not knowing how I would approach a game as scum doesn't nullify me being able to look at how I am playing and thinking if I were scum here I'd be pretty happy at how it's turning out. Literally, if I am this active in a game when I draw scum, no matter what people think of my alignment, that will be a super win for me in my book.

[Tammy]

you guys are definitely being too hard on wisdom here
an 'easy pass'? cmon

*shrug*

Now do I think Wisdom, who I think could figure out how to get town reads without voting or death tunneling, would come out with something hokey like "how do I get town reads without voting?" as scum. Maybe not, even joking. But I don't trust that interpretation of mine either.

See, I read this and struggle to see how the Wisdom paranoia outweighs what looks like a fairly solid argument?

PEdit: Wisdom being town and being soft-confirmed would be bad for scum!Tammy

I'm not paranoid of Wisdom though nor do I think it's a fairly solid argument. That's a small behavioral assessment that might not be right. I haven't played with Wisdom in like 5 years and I don't trust the reasoning on that type of read unless I have a really good understanding of someone and their behavior. And then even then it's flimsy. That's not a good reason for me to feel comfortable town reading someone. It might for you, and that's fine, but it's not for me.

The soft clears due to the trust thingy were poor and they were sketchy. I both do not want scum to be soft cleared for bad reasoning and don't trust people giving poor reasoning like that. I don't buy into the scum scrambling to keep someone from getting clear, and don't think I've ever done that as scum, but I do buy into scum clearing town for bad reasoning. So I'm going to question what looks like poor reasoning to get reads on people. I'll do this even if I think the person is town.

But I don't quite get your argument. You're saying that I'm trying to keep wisdom from getting clear because I'm scrambling scum who doesn't want him town read and I'm doing that by poking at a poor reason for him being town read and offering up instead a stronger reason for him to be townread? Wouldn't that completely defeat the purpose of me trying to keep people from town reading him?

Am I misunderstanding?

But, to be fair if I were scum, I would also be questioning that. Probably. Maybe. In theory definitely because I happen to think writing people off as town for reasoning like that is poor in general, so as scum I'd be able to push that avenue to look like I was scumhunting.

If this was something you were really concerned about though, why not extend it. I think I equally argued against other town reads. It feels like if this was a genuine avenue you'd point out the pattern with me questioning town reads to strengthen your argument but you stopped it with the wisdom thing.

[Tammy]

expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid?

But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

I did like the bolded though.

[Tammy]

Can you do it like in Fallout 4

I'm replaying Fallout 4 in VR right now and it's really fun and kinda creepy.

[Tammy]

Hmmm I was expecting Wisdom to scum read me.

Maybe just an issue of my own. I thought when I came back that I was going to be stuck with old meta expectations that I'd never be able to rid myself of, but most people haven't been holding me to old meta. Which is nice. Or he's scum :/

[Tammy]

Tammy does feel like a fairly natural place for scum to start to pick things apart

I DO!

[Tammy]

actually that's wholly inaccurate since we were talking about Tammy's approach to Wisdom and I just brainfarted.

I don't think Tammy was scum-reading Wisdom

She simply did not like him being "soft-cleared" for reasons she expressed doubt in.

That's not the same as discrediting/scumreading someone.

And this is a more succinct way of representing what I was doing and thinking, yes.

Thank you m'lord.

[Tammy]

jesus you keep putting me in a spot that forces me to whiteknight klick

I liked this.

[Tammy]

Yup that would work really well if I was scum and just missed the vote

It would also work really well if the worst was scum and did that to try to get you confirmed.

I don't believe this, but people not accounting for various possibilities is weird.

[Tammy]

expending political capital to shade someone who's town is not exactly a winning strategy for a scumside player.

your goal is to get someone to trust you

not make sure nobody can trust anyone (cuz that's like literally impossible)

Scum doesn't just want to get trusted - they want to be trusted more than town
So scum!Tammy would be concerned about town'Wisdom getting soft-confirmed because that takes away from her potential pairings, since all the townies that might have wanted to pair with her would instead be appealing to Wisdom

I don't feel like this is stupid? But it seems that everyone has a consensus about this and I've not played the setup before admittedly

agree with Klick here. I can see scum wanting to shade 1 player to make them feel forced into accepting any trust they can find. maybe wouldn't work with experienced players but I think that is a motive for throwing shade on the right player (whilst wanting to suck up to the majority too). so I think slight tendency towards players who are bucking the consensus and standing out. i havent read everything back but was liking mafmen for town apart from 1 post which referred to my "previous games", when I only have 1, which didn't really make sense. Pooky-Tammy is probably a lock unless they are both scum which would be awkward. i will keep catching up when i can.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your post, but you don't seem to be agreeing with Klick there. Klick is saying I was trying to limit Wisdom's potential pairings to expand my own, but you're saying that scum might shade town to force them into accepting a trust?

What do you think the slight tendency towards players who are bucking the consensus and standing out is?

What is the lock between me and spooky?

[Tammy]

Yup that would work really well if I was scum and just missed the vote

It would also work really well if the worst was scum and did that to try to get you confirmed.

I don't believe this, but people not accounting for various possibilities is weird.

sigh

this makes no sense to me

you can account for various possibilities, but not making any judgment on which are the most likely makes zero sense to me

and if you do make a judgement, I think it's pretty clear that the most likely scenario is that wisdom is just town here

I did make a judgment. My judgment was that there was no way to know what Wisdom knew about the rules, if he saw the vote in the first place, or what he would do if scum.

I judged it null and the town reads for it poor.

If wisdom is town here, I feel pretty good I'll get there. My past problems with wisdom was town reading him when he was scum not scum reading him when he's town.

I don't really understand why you want me to townread wisdom so bad. The game is super early, proper town reads matter, and I tend to be cautious in that regard anyway.

[Tammy]

post 666 cookie is confirmed scum.

[Tammy]

Also, sorry Infinity-I did not notice you shifted your pronoun to they. I will do my best to revise it moving forward.

And I did not notice that you shifted it to she; sorry for referring to you as they.

[Tammy]

can you please clarify third question?

You said that Tammy-Pooky was a lock and I was wondering what you meant, but you just responded to Prism that you thought we were a locked pair so I figured you answered that already.

[Tammy]

also wisdom confirmed he didn't notice the trust so he's owned that the clear was phoney

oh i missed this lol

townread on wisdom slightly weaker i guess

I kinda assumed you were aware of how dubious the mechclear was and were playing along. Could you give me a super quick summary of where your read is at on Wisdom?

*twitch*

[Tammy]

Ducky -what reads conclusions did you get from *stirring shit ip*

[Tammy]

Hmmm I was expecting Wisdom to scum read me.

Maybe just an issue of my own. I thought when I came back that I was going to be stuck with old meta expectations that I'd never be able to rid myself of, but most people haven't been holding me to old meta. Which is nice. Or he's scum :/

Have i ever actually scumread you, i cant recall

I don't know. I think the last time we played. I was in a bad place that game and had a melt down before replacing out, and I think you town read my slot after that lol.

Mostly I'm very aware of how some of my old meta that people used to read me from is not present anymore, and it was such a big deal years ago that every time I play with someone from the before time I expect them to scum read me now.

[Tammy]

hmm I'm not quite done with conclusions yet! I liked your response though.
I wouldn't say I was motivated entirely by stirring shit up, I superficially liked wisdom's posting and stuff and the non-reciprocation was worth talking about

Okay. By the way you brought it up it kinda sounded like backtracking a reasoning for why you did something as if you were trying to garner reads from it from the start, and thinking back to the conversation last night it did not feel that way. In that you said the discussion was unproductive when pooky pushed at it.

[Tammy]

What I did like about wisdom's conversation with mafmen last night was the windy way his suspicions began changing. Like first he suspects Klick then moves to mafmen based on his points about Klick then thinking that mafmen is tmi-ing Klick as town followed by showing a little frustration that nobody will see what he sees with maf.

Not that I agree with the conversation really. I think that both of them lost their points at points, but I did like that. Not enough for an actual townread but I forgot to mention it when I was here earlier.

[Tammy]

There was a post by prism last night that I liked but I can’t find it now. This is mostly a note for myself to look for it when I have a chance. It’s unlikely I’ll be here tomorrow and I don’t want to forget.

I’ve found enchant to be a bit awkward, but like cookie I thought it could be writing style but for a different reason and figured I’d wait and see.

Anyway I think I’m going to be able to actually get sleep tonight so yay.

[Tammy]

It is challenging to overcome her paranoia about me

Now this. People have accused me of being paranoid of others. But this is the only correct one that I have paranoia about. I don't trust myself to read you correctly really.

Also see the heal thingy. I don't trust anyone right now.

[Tammy]

I'm fine being left out of pairings and carried. See you in another 24.

It’s a no bones day anyway probably best to take the day off lol

[Tammy]

I need to properly catch up. I’ve sorta been keeping up while working but meh. I have thoughts but they’ll have to wait. This is mostly a prod dodge just in case. I’ve been grading all day and I have no spoons for mafia. Gonna do something that doesn’t require brain power and see how I feel. I’ll be here tomorrow if I don’t come back tonight.

Though prism - I’m glad to see you poking at the pooky read. I was going to poke at your earlier read cuz it felt like you were writing that off too easily and had be a little wigged.

Perot: I probably do lol

[Tammy]

eventually i'll end d1 by trusting wisdom

You're probably not doing this soon, but just in case, please don't do this until I get a chance to post. I'm making dinner and then I'll be around.

[Tammy]

I forgot that the game is nightless so it was silly to ask worst to wait for me to post. I don’t have anything grand to say lol.

I still don’t have townreads I’d bet the game on, and I’m not sure I’m going to today,

I need to reread the game as the past few days have been me reading while working or hanging out with friends, but I’m not going to reread tonight. Might get to that tomorrow.

I’m not entirely jazzed about the worst leaving with wisdom or enchant because I don’t have great townreads on any of them, wisdom and the worst feel fine? but I wouldn’t bet the game on feeling fine, but also not sure how likely I am to get better than that today.

I’ve liked the way that prism has been going about rereading the game and pointing out stuff. I was a bit suspicious at the way she was writing pooky off as town earlier in the game. That might have been a silly concern, but pooky’s play at several points didn’t feel right. But major caveat: I don’t trust my ability to read pooky correctly. Some of the things that are probably just part of pookys playstyle, I read as super scummy. In warehouse 13 the over performative ness of his push on cakez when he was town hit the same notes his flavorleaf push did in tenet when he was scum. What I thought might be town indicative was his overt flirting/buddying because that is more likely to make me distrust someone rather than trust them, and I thought certainly he knows that? But he might not and I shouldn’t rely on that actually.

What I found suspicious was the way he treated mafmen’s portion of the wis-men spat earlier. It felt like he was nitpicking him for arguing his point as if it was horrible that madmen continued the argument in what was a regular, general run of the mill mafia argument/discussion. Sure they lost the plot there, but the fact that maf continued to argue isn’t scum indicative the way that pooky tried to paint it. Town madmen would have wanted to be understood just as much as scum madmen would, and he wasn’t looking at the argument and viewpoints just the fact that he continued to argue was problematic. I did not like the argument with wisdom today at all. It made no sense, and the performative aspect of it just reminds me of tenet and the way he pushed flavorleaf. But he also did that in warehouse thirteen, so yeah guys performative I guess. But today’s made no sense, especially considering wisdom trusted me two days ago and pooky was around when he did. So yeah I don’t know. But if he actually thinks wisdom is scum, he should have had a reaction to the worst. (Sorry if you’re town pooky and these are your real thoughts. I enjoy your presence a lot; I just don’t trust you)

I kinda liked enchant untrusting me I think. I liked it in the moment. Now I’m not entirely sure.

While I did like that line about things not being stupid, my problem with kick is that I don’t think he should have gone from suspecting me to trusting me based on my reactions. The whole thing was flimsy anyway, but iirc I was really the only person he had talked about and was scumleaning in the first place. And he went from that to damn near town reading me and putting in a possible trust which makes the original suspicion not feel genuine.

I had the opposite reaction to prism on infinity and the wisdom read. I’d be surprised if it were wisdom/infinity though based on how much they were insisting that wisdom was town and questioning me why I didn’t see the clear. I was interested to see what the worst was going to do with his suspicions concerning their reaction to his clear claim but I think he dropped that.

These are my off the top of my head random thoughts with little conclusions ha

[Tammy]

I have 5 townreads

You win the race!

[Tammy]

What I found suspicious was the way he treated mafmen’s portion of the wis-men spat earlier. It felt like he was nitpicking him for arguing his point as if it was horrible that madmen continued the argument in what was a regular, general run of the mill mafia argument/discussion. Sure they lost the plot there, but the fact that maf continued to argue isn’t scum indicative the way that pooky tried to paint it. Town madmen would have wanted to be understood just as much as scum madmen would, and he wasn’t looking at the argument and viewpoints just the fact that he continued to argue was problematic. I did not like the argument with wisdom today at all. It made no sense, and the performative aspect of it just reminds me of tenet and the way he pushed flavorleaf. But he also did that in warehouse thirteen, so yeah guys performative I guess. But today’s made no sense, especially considering wisdom trusted me two days ago and pooky was around when he did. So yeah I don’t know. But if he actually thinks wisdom is scum, he should have had a reaction to the worst. (Sorry if you’re town pooky and these are your real thoughts. I enjoy your presence a lot; I just don’t trust you)

this comparison to Tenet/Wh13 makes 0 sense

if I am scum

and I want to f2 with Wisdom

I lose the game.

1v1s in this game do not work the same way as 1v1s in normal mafia.

Because Scum literally cannot initiate/force 1v1s.

If they are carried out, the scum in the 1v1 automatically loses.

I am willing to f2 with Wisdom because I believe he is mafia.

The reason I believe he is mafia is because of the way he reacted to me in real time.

I did not attack him when he trusted you because I didn't have the time to attack him and get his reactions in real time.

I believe off his reactions today that he is pretty much always scum here.

If you and the others do not believe me and allow him to escape, then that's fine with me.

I am a very ego-driven player. I accept that I sometimes lose because others can't see what I can see.

It is what it is.

That very well may be but it doesn’t change the fact that the over performative nature of the push reads fake and scummy to me.

I think you’re missing the point of my comparison.

[Tammy]

Tammy you had to wait until I was out and tired? Damn you

I've got to get up early and move out of my apartment tomorrow so I probably won't be too active.

All according to my plan! Have fun moving.

[Tammy]

Good night pooky

[Tammy]

I have a migraine, rereading isn’t happening today. Sorry.

I don’t really understand what I’ve read, I know part of that is due to my eyes being all kaleidoscope when I woke up.

Pooky I hope you are okay! If some of what you wrote is genuine, i would imagine it stems from not having a very good day and if that’s the case I hope it gets better.

I’ll be back if my migraine starts subsiding, otherwise tomorrow.

[Tammy]

I was so tempted to accept one of them too

[Tammy]

I’ve written and deleted a few posts this morning but meh.

I agree with prisms 1445 and should probably just go to work.

[Tammy]

Prism - Earlier you talked about pooky's reads ability. I'm having such a hard time wording today. You talked about him as having decent reads. What do you make of his wisdom or mafmen reads?

[Tammy]

Oh I forgot earlier when I thought about it that the worst believes? he can read wisdom well and had him as town, so that sort of counterbalances that.

[Tammy]

Mostly I was in a moment of should I be caring about or putting any weight on the reads of the dead town.

[Tammy]

You kinda did in girls girls girls though, unless I'm missing what you mean by self complaints.

[Tammy]

I'm amused that both the replacements trusted and peaced within hours of replacing in. Maybe we are playing it wrong. lol

[Tammy]

OH. Yeah I thought you were meaning that you holding yourself to your standards or complaining that you weren't holding up to your standards well enough with that. I didn't see that cookie meant something else.

[Tammy]

I agree that it's not alignment indicative. I thought you were saying that you don't post publicly about it as scum, and I remembered that bit about GG1 because I think it was the basis for me incorrectly thinking you might be town.

[Tammy]

lol. remembering little tidbits means nothing if I can't actually catch you as scum though!

[Tammy]

I'm reading through some iso's trying to get caught up on what things I missed/forgot about since the way I kept up on the game isn't ideal, but I also don't have time to reread the game in its entirety right now.

After reading through Cookie and Klick's iso's my current thought is that this game is probably going to be one of those games where my reads in general were probably kinda bad or non existent.

[Tammy]

maybe even downright atrocious

[Tammy]

mafmen - I don't know who you are or think I know if you're an alt. There is someone who double posts a lot but I don't think you are them.

[Tammy]

Yeah I think it’s going to be a game of a lack of reads. Sorry, not my finest hour. Just read madmen, enchant, infinity,cookie and klick and I don’t really have a smoking gun on any of them. I’m going to read prism and wisdom but I don’t have time for that tonight. I have a dentist appointment super early in the morning and need to go to sleep soon. I don’t think I have as late of a day tomorrow, so I’ll be around earlier.

I think that infinity/klick could have Scum, but I don’t feel really confident in that. I wish there was more from both.

Maf - you seemed to read wisdom town from early on even through your discussion with him, but then it seemed like you dropped him from your town reads after the pooky argument? Am I understanding that evolution correctly? If so, why did it drop?

I had cookie as a scumteam earlier but I’m hesitating on that.

[Tammy]

*had cookie as a scumlean not team.

[Tammy]

Alright, well, I will leave this here to return it when/if you feel like it.

Trust: Tammy

I’m so tempted. Maybe I’ll roll the dice a few times before bed.

[Tammy]

I’ll still be up for about an hour or so, so I’ll be checking back in and can chat. Just don’t have time to read ISO’s plus get ready for bed and for tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Hope you managed to squeeze in some rowing between heading and rereading fella

Grading yes, rowing no. In fact I’ve been lazy the past few days which probably explains my low energy.

I don’t feel terrible about enchant but I’ll come back in a few with some actual thoughts.

[Tammy]

Well, they both are hardtown regardless, mafia could just leave instantly.

What were you referring to with this? You had talked a bit about how people aren’t necessarily confirmed.

(I have an idea but I want to make sure I’m reading your thoughts correctly).

[Tammy]

For enchant I liked his untrust of me in real time. Other than that there’s not a whole lot to say yeah this is town! or not. Though his writing style is very similar to one of the players at my homesite (rip) and that gives me warm fuzzy vibes.

I know that’s unhelpful. SOrry about your noodle muscles. Blame the weather!

[Tammy]

Ei had a crappy day on crappy sleep, so no ISO’s for me today. I’m hoping to be asleep shortly.

The game is stagnating though and I’m not entirely sure what to do about it. My thought was to ask you guys if anybody has a reason to think I shouldn’t leave with cookie or prism. I think those are my two trusts and maybe people will do something with more flips. But is there enough information if someone flips scum?

I don’t have as strong a town read on prism as I would like. I’m not sure if that’s a me issue as I haven’t been really invested myself and this game has been...weird, so I’m not sure how much to worry about this. I’m not sure how to describe what I was hoping to see that would give me confidence and the lack of it doesn’t necessarily mean scum, but I’m just rambling to say I’m not as confident as I’d like to be but that might mean nothing.

Tired mindless ramblings I know. I know that there was a bit of a poll to see if anybody had issues with certain people leaving or if everyone was onboard with the six, but I don’t know if everyone weighed in, but if you have thoughts for why I shouldn’t leave with prism or cookie, I’d love to hear them.

I’m sorry if none of this makes sense. I’m super tired!

[Tammy]

That helps lol and I’m a sucker for self meta.

And no there is no real reason. I tried to think of one today on my drive home and there’s not one just me I think lacking any real sense of confidence but that could be a me thing just not feeling confident in general.

Does that make sense?

[Tammy]

I want to just throw the spaghetti at the wall and trust it will stick but I’m tired my head feels foggy and I lack confidence

[Tammy]

(I don’t actually cook spaghetti that way)

[Tammy]

I didn’t mean to frustrate you. Before I left work I decided that I was going to trust you when I got home because something needed to happen in the game, and the drive home led to me going but are you confident and here we are. I overthink.

[Tammy]

Okay I’m gonna trust you in the morning then. I’d trust you now but then I’d lay here waiting for the flip and I really need to go to sleep. So morning it is.

[Tammy]

No it won’t. I know myself and I’d lay here refreshing and then I’d pass the point of being tired all the way back to being awake again and end up getting like 4 hours of sleep. Insomnia sucks.

[Tammy]

Prism is a troll.

Sorry woke up late this morning.

So if I stay with the plan and exit with wisdom and he’s town, we win upon exit right?

If not, then you guys battle it out? Anyone have any real objections to the plan then?

[Tammy]

I should read today’s posts lol

[Tammy]

trust wisdom

Sorry if this is wrong and good luck!

[Tammy]

Yay!

Woods! I woke up late for work then when I had a minute my eye doctor called to say my glasses were in, and it was either go there immediately or wait until next week. You got me on your troll though.

This was a nice decently stress-free game, which was nice when I was t sure if I was up for mafia yet.

[Tammy]

Woods should be sorry lol

[Tammy]

Yay!

Woods! I woke up late for work then when I had a minute my eye doctor called to say my glasses were in, and it was either go there immediately or wait until next week. You got me on your troll though.

This was a nice decently

stress-free game

, which was nice when I was t sure if I was up for mafia yet.

lol

When I got annoyed, I just did something else. Not always my approach but it worked here.

[Tammy]

Thank you for modding it Q!

[Tammy]

This is also great because Tammy isn't confident in her reads, wasn't a fan of a forced decision on me, and generally has wanted to take only the lowest stakes this game. Now she's left to unilaterally shoot for the win, no pressure.

Best of luck Tammatha!

Lol. One of the reasons I went ahead and went for it was because I was like gotta take my shot and go now before someone else hooks and I get stuck trying to figure out who the last one is when my grand reads this game have been idunno.