Newbie 2082 - Game Over

[catboi]

For reference, this is the igorsprite scum game in question, with a link to the post where he fakes a dumbtell about not knowing how many mafia are in the game: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/top ... 0750?n=186

The setup was NewD3, which is of course the same as this one. That's notable to me because he made this post in this game:

we have 2 scums, right?

Which could have been an attempt to replicate the cred he got for that game.

Hey that was not fake, i really didn't know how many scums were >:(

That was my first game and the first time that the mod modded a game and he forgot to say who was my scum partner, and i thought that i needed to find my scum partners by myself xD

Wait you didn't have any sort of private chat?

[MafMen]

theres a 0.0000000000000000000000000000001% chance igors tracker claim is fake, meta doesnt matter when hes been uncc'd for like a week

Setup Information

NewD3 (as designed by RadiantCowbells):

	A	B	C
Mafia	Mafia Roleblocker	Mafia Rolecop	Mafia Goon
Row 1	Town Cop and Town Doctor	Town Tracker and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Cop and Vanilla Townie
Row 2	Town Jailkeeper and Town Tracker	Town Jailkeeper and Town Friendly Neighbor	Town Jailkeeper and Vanilla Townie
Row 3	Town Mason and Town Mason	Town Tracker and Town Doctor	Town Mason and Town Mason

Refer to the third column, setup C2: It's entirely possible that igor is a mafia goon fakeclaiming who got lucky that the setup is the one where a tracker is not directly CC'd by another power role. Him doing the "vote me I want to see who hops on routine" seemed maybe kind of town but I find the way he's acted to be incredibly suspicious.

I encountered almost this exact scenario in a prior newbie game and had to metaphorically scream my head off just to get it through to people that it was possible the tracker was fakeclaiming. People are so, so quick to accept any PR claim and it's incredibly hard for them to even consider the possibility of one being fake.

could you potentially link the game?
fair enough though i didnt notice there was another setup with jailkeeper, my bad on that, but why would goon igor fakeclaim tracker here though? its a very high risk high reward claim thus it could be worthwhile i guess, but considering he claimed when there was hardly any pressure on him whatsoever what motive does he have? maybe theres an argument to be made that theres equal scum motivation as there is town motivation behind his claim but at that point its just unnecessary cautiousness

[MafMen]

another setup in C with jailkeeper*

[catboi]

ive never ever liked when people say "when i die go after (x) person next" as that's just a bunch of disingenuous nonsense that could easily be used to manipulate town into shifting the wagon off of them and onto the accuser
instead of defending yourself youre going on the offensive against implosion, as if rather than arguing the scumread against you, youre trying to appeal to the town instead and i wouldnt say that bodes well for your alignment

Doing what I'm doing almost never actually shakes off pressure in my experience. Mafia players are inherently selfish egotists: everyone wants to be the hero with the right reads who solves the game, so no one cares about the reads of dead townies. I'm no different, of course, I just want to actually feel listened to at all rather than someone who gets strung up and then ignored, as has happened countless times in mafia games. I just want the assurance that implosion dies, you don't even have to trust me here and now.

You may find my response to be

unpleasant

and

off-putting

, because you disagree with how I am handling this, but that is irrelevant to my alignment, the goal is to determine whether I am reacting in a way that is

genuine

. And I'm quite certain that going ballistic in response to a push is antithetical to survival but is really the only option I have when I think someone is pushing me in a scummy way.


The thing is, I

am

defending myself here, but implosion's case on me is terrible and is so insubstantial that there's very little to respond to, so of course I go on the attack, because I believe he's pushing me for scum motivated reasons. What points of his do you believe I haven't addressed?

[catboi]

could you potentially link the game?
fair enough though i didnt notice there was another setup with jailkeeper, my bad on that, but why would goon igor fakeclaim tracker here though? its a very high risk high reward claim thus it could be worthwhile i guess, but considering he claimed when there was hardly any pressure on him whatsoever what motive does he have? maybe theres an argument to be made that theres equal scum motivation as there is town motivation behind his claim but at that point its just unnecessary cautiousness

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=86289 This was the game, the circumstances were slightly different as marcistar claimed tracker on day 2, after there was a blocked kill so mafia would know that it was the setup with a jailkeeper. But it only dawned on me that the tracker claim could be fake on day 4 and I had to fight like hell to get out of it.


I agree with what you're saying about the improbability of the claim, it all seems very farfetched and is something of a tinfoil theory on my part, the whole routine from igorsprite day 1 seems antithetical to how scum would approach it but my impression of his play is that he's trolly/unorthodox and might be prone to doing unexpected things as either alignment. It's also likely that if he was scum who carried the kill he'd know the jailkeeper was on him. I also just find he's leaning into the clueless newbie act maybe a little too much, always asking for help.

I'm not even suggesting he should be eliminated today, I think that would be mechanically poor play, but I should emphasize that he's not necessarily clear here.

[MafMen]

ive never ever liked when people say "when i die go after (x) person next" as that's just a bunch of disingenuous nonsense that could easily be used to manipulate town into shifting the wagon off of them and onto the accuser
instead of defending yourself youre going on the offensive against implosion, as if rather than arguing the scumread against you, youre trying to appeal to the town instead and i wouldnt say that bodes well for your alignment

Doing what I'm doing almost never actually shakes off pressure in my experience. Mafia players are inherently selfish egotists: everyone wants to be the hero with the right reads who solves the game, so no one cares about the reads of dead townies. I'm no different, of course, I just want to actually feel listened to at all rather than someone who gets strung up and then ignored, as has happened countless times in mafia games. I just want the assurance that implosion dies, you don't even have to trust me here and now.

You may find my response to be

unpleasant

and

off-putting

, because you disagree with how I am handling this, but that is irrelevant to my alignment, the goal is to determine whether I am reacting in a way that is

genuine

. And I'm quite certain that going ballistic in response to a push is antithetical to survival but is really the only option I have when I think someone is pushing me in a scummy way.


The thing is, I

am

defending myself here, but implosion's case on me is terrible and is so insubstantial that there's very little to respond to, so of course I go on the attack, because I believe he's pushing me for scum motivated reasons. What points of his do you believe I haven't addressed?

im not saying there are any points of his you missed i just dislike (the self-admitted) omgus, feels unnatural but i might have a skewed view on how town would defend themselves
sure mafia players are egotists but this is a game with impressionable newbies where you have more freedom to fake posts but the frustration does seem genuine i suppose

UNVOTE:
to clarify im not doing this because i no longer scumread you or because im agreeing with you but solely to give you room to breath, youre still sus asf in my eyes
pedit: so you arent pushing to say igor is mafia but youre just telling us to keep an open mind? thats fine then i guess, that was my own misinterpretation

[MafMen]

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

[MafMen]

changed my mind that unvote is now also me doubting myself
the progression between the linked game and now does seem like a mafia player who got ptsd over a very smart wolf pllay

[implosion]

Who else would you want to go for, MafMen? I feel like I have good reasons to not vote everyone else in the game right now (obviously at least one of those is wrong but etc). My 2nd guess right now would be StrangeMatter but I am quite afraid that that's just me biased because pseudoAristotle didn't have as much time to towntell. StrangeMatter themself on their play alone I have no strong opinion on atm.

[MafMen]

i could easily latch on to my past vote on val but i feel that wouldnt be putting enough effort in

[implosion]

In particular I don't see a reason catboi can't make this arc on igor as scum. Like:

the progression between the linked game and now does seem like a mafia player who got ptsd over a very smart wolf pllay

Sure, catboi saw a tracker fakeclaim work fairly well in a previous game and is so more vigilant to make sure we aren't auto-accepting it this game. This is a feasible reading.

Isn't it also feasible to read this as catboi-scum who saw this kind of thing work for scum in a previous game and sees an opportunity to use it to shade an actually trueclaiming tracker?

(fwiw I agree that if igor lives for a long time we should re-evaluate him but my reason for townreading him is not really the claim itself per se, it's the way it was made very similar to what MafMen described earlier)

[MafMen]

keep in mind just because i say im doubting myself doesnt mean ive dropped it entirely
im gonna have to do another read through on this game but thats for another day because its late asf and im sleepy

[implosion]

Actually, I'll just outright say it: implosion should know better than to scumread me here. Screw the self-deprecation.

He asks "how am I supposed to work with you", but his read on me

gives me nothing to work with

. The goal here is to paint me as unreasonable when in fact he is the one not trying to reason with me and is only concerned with flipping me. There was never any attempt to work with me on his part.

I feel very similarly to this in the other direction. catboi-town should know better than to scumread me here.

Like, what do I even gain as scum by voting for them in this way, when I'm basically universally townread. Why would I not just chill, especially in a newbie game. Like, honestly I can see catboi being suspicious of me as a result of this but the way they've gone essentially scorched earth just doesn't make any sense. I still am not sure they're scum! I feel like I've made that clear though maybe I haven't. The biggest of my reasons for voting them is PoE. Sure they're allowed to examine my vote and call it scummy. But like, they're just so quick to jump to absolute certainty that I'm scum to the point that they're all-capsing to demand people lim me after they die. I just don't buy that that's genuine.

[implosion]

I guess I do need to see more from Val in that it's bad to rest on the laurel of my townread on him with him absent today, even if I think it's a fairly rigid laurel.

[implosion]

I feel very similarly to this in the other direction. catboi-town should know better than to scumread me here.

I guess I started writing this post thinking catboi should know my meta better than to think that this kind of thing is scum-indicative from me but that's probably not true since we haven't played in a while and only a few games (i think?) and my train of thought kind of wandered from there so let me rephrase this for clarity:

catboi-town should know better than to lockscum me here.

[igorsprite]

For reference, this is the igorsprite scum game in question, with a link to the post where he fakes a dumbtell about not knowing how many mafia are in the game: https://osu.ppy.sh/community/forums/top ... 0750?n=186

The setup was NewD3, which is of course the same as this one. That's notable to me because he made this post in this game:

we have 2 scums, right?

Which could have been an attempt to replicate the cred he got for that game.

Hey that was not fake, i really didn't know how many scums were >:(

That was my first game and the first time that the mod modded a game and he forgot to say who was my scum partner, and i thought that i needed to find my scum partners by myself xD

Wait you didn't have any sort of private chat?

we had, but we used PM without the mod because she is chinese and don't have discord

[igorsprite]

What "feeling"? Give me some sort of words here, or even literally quote a post you found suspect.

it's secret u.u

joking, i don't remember when i started to sus you .-.

[igorsprite]

What "feeling"? Give me some sort of words here, or even literally quote a post you found suspect.

it's secret u.u

joking, i don't remember when i started to sus you .-.

oh i remember now, was this post

Whatever, not going to dwell on it.

it's only whatever for the mafia >.>

[igorsprite]

tbh i don't sus anyone now, but i want to see what Greeting have to say

[Micc]

Votecount 2.05

catboi (2) -

igorsprite, implosion

igorsprite (1) -

Greeting

implosion (1) -

catboi

Not Voting (4) -

Val89, frogsfrogs, StrangeMatter, MafMen

With 8 players alive it takes 5 votes to eliminate.

The deadline for Day 2 is in (expired on 2021-11-13 11:05:00).

Prodding Val89.

[Val89]

There is a fair bit to unpack from today's discussion, but to start with, if it wasn't obvious, the read I had made on catboi at the time I hammered yesterday was a strong scumread, and I think a good case for scum!catboi can be made on the basis of page 15 alone, never mind all the stuff that happened today.

That page starts with him expressing a sentiment that Greeting had also expressed earlier in the day - that we would like to get rid of me, but didn't think a wagon on me was 'viable', which as I pointed out, I think vastly overstated the degree to which I was being townread (which wasn't all that much - 2 slots, the rest either being silent or shading me), and frankly, why does town care at that point anyhow? The second, and more telling response, is how he explains why he is indulging in pre-flip associatives in this game when he usually discourages the practise - that he has more decent than usual townreads. On questioning, however, it's clear that doesn't hold up, and it's...quietly dropped? I know I ended the day with the hammer about 5 hours later, after it was obvious that's all we were getting from catboit, but we ended the day with the strongest townread from catboit being that implosion was "reasonably okish" (and given who he is pushing now, you have to shake you head a bit at that one, too!), while also sheeping implosions argument that Thyn had been trying to keep his options open with respect to scumreading half the game, and also him trying to tell us that he had better than normal townreads this game to the degree he was happier to speculate on pre-flips D1.

I think, even absent the stuff with igor, I would have been voting there today, but absolutely nothing I have seen today gives me pause. Igor told a lie, that much is evident, but there are two possible lies - the one he admits to, that he faked a guilty result on a slot he thought (and to my mind, with good reason to think) scummy, and the second, that he was faking his entire claim. I get the impression that catboi has been doing his best to conflate the two.

As an example, take the game he links at 529. He says, but only when asked to post the game, not when it's first brought up in 524 that the circumstances are

slightly

different, but there are not, they are

widely

different. Igor claimed tracker when there was zero good cause for him to do so on page 5, in his 11th post of the game at a time there was minimal pressure on his slot, and the last vote him had been specifically invited. If that is a fake claim coming from scum, not only did he get lucky, but he rolled the dice at a time there was simply no need to. Surely catboi is smart and experienced enough to know the difference, and I don't buy that town!catboi would bring that up, even if he DOES beleive igor is fakeclaiming as scum, and he did get lucky and take that risk when it wasn't needed, without explaining that. 'Oh, this has happened in a newbie game before' is a huge overreach and one I think has to be deliberate.

Then there is the shitpush on implosion. He wants us to buy that implosion is making a bad-faith, non-genueine push on

him

, while also making posts like this:

could make a snide comment about the proofreading fail on that post being scum-indicative, but that's over the top and i don't actually believe that

How else I am expected to take a post like that, other than "please give me towncred for not using something I don't actually think is NAI to push implosion, but I'm still going to point out the thing I think is NAI, and maybe someone else will think it's scum-indicative." That's one example. 484 is another. I think someone is making a bad-faith shitpush here, but it isn't implosion.

VOTE: Catboi

[Val89]

Cards on the table, there is no world in which I will be convinced to vote either Frogs or Implosion today. Post 421 could have basically have been written by myself; the only thing it appears we disagree on at all is the degree to which Greeting is suspicious, and it's pretty much the same story as implosion. This is something that's been consistent righjt through the game (42,102, 218, 246, 283,472) are all examples of places frogs was right on the money and totally instep with my own thinking before I had come out and said what I was thinking, in a game when a lot of bullshit has been thrown around and by slots that should as least have the experiance to know better. I could make a comparable list for implosion, too, but the same basic deal applies, although there is a more fundermental disagreement there in that he thinks Greeting is town.

Could those townreads have been brought and paid for by clever scum who simply know the right things to say to mirror how I think about the game? I guess there is a tiny, remote possiblity, but to my eyes it's hugely less likley that that is the situation we are in - that basicaly all the other town slots in this game (Greeting, MafMen and Catboi would all have to town, as well as Thyn, in that scenario) have simulatanously and independantly acted in way that I have found suspicious at one time or another and I've been sucessfully pocketed having not been in the game from the start. I think it's far far more likley they are both town; job done.

I still think Greeting looks good for scum alongside catboi, but MafMen is the other possibility, particulary given the interactions frogs pointed out happened yesterday, and how they have engaged enough other in the other direction today. Why exactly do town want to give a slot they find scummy af "breathing space"??

[catboi]

im not saying there are any points of his you missed i just dislike (the self-admitted) omgus, feels unnatural but i might have a skewed view on how town would defend themselves

Well, ultimately I have to make a judgment call as to whether or not his push on me is coming from a town POV, and I don't believe it is.

also those arent "slightly different circumstances," a guaranteed jailkeeper leaves a lot of room to fakeclaim rather than doing what scum!igor could do but nevertheless i get it

And I recognize that, I'm not advocating for voting igorsprite today. The circumstances of the claim would be fairly risky for mafia. But I don't want people shutting their brains off solely on the basis of a claim, which happens too often. If you look at igorsprite's posts after the claim, I think there's good reason to say he's suspect, if not outright scummy. Again, not saying you should flip him now but he should be given scrutiny.

Who else would you want to go for, MafMen? I feel like I have good reasons to not vote everyone else in the game right now (obviously at least one of those is wrong but etc). My 2nd guess right now would be StrangeMatter but I am quite afraid that that's just me biased because pseudoAristotle didn't have as much time to towntell. StrangeMatter themself on their play alone I have no strong opinion on atm.

Nah, Strange has been fine, the fact that you'd even look there suggests you're not really reading into their posts. Which is a theme with you.

What "feeling"? Give me some sort of words here, or even literally quote a post you found suspect.

it's secret u.u

joking, i don't remember when i started to sus you .-.

oh i remember now, was this post

Whatever, not going to dwell on it.

it's only whatever for the mafia >.>

Okay, you realize that, at that time, under the assumption you had made a misplay, there was no point in me complaining about it? It's not like yelling at you after the fact would have given you a report. There was nothing to be gained by dwelling on it and any further display of emotion over it would have been entirely performative. (never mind that, at that moment, I was actively starting to suspect you were possibly fakeclaiming because I found not submitting a report to be hard to believe)

[catboi]

Actually, I'll just outright say it: implosion should know better than to scumread me here. Screw the self-deprecation.

He asks "how am I supposed to work with you", but his read on me

gives me nothing to work with

. The goal here is to paint me as unreasonable when in fact he is the one not trying to reason with me and is only concerned with flipping me. There was never any attempt to work with me on his part.

I feel very similarly to this in the other direction. catboi-town should know better than to scumread me here.

Like, what do I even gain as scum by voting for them in this way, when I'm basically universally townread. Why would I not just chill, especially in a newbie game. Like, honestly I can see catboi being suspicious of me as a result of this but the way they've gone essentially scorched earth just doesn't make any sense. I still am not sure they're scum! I feel like I've made that clear though maybe I haven't. The biggest of my reasons for voting them is PoE. Sure they're allowed to examine my vote and call it scummy. But like, they're just so quick to jump to absolute certainty that I'm scum to the point that they're all-capsing to demand people lim me after they die. I just don't buy that that's genuine.

What you gain as scum by voting me is PUSHING A MISFLIP THERE IS ALREADY MOMENTUM TOWARD BECAUSE OF IGOR'S AWFUL FAKE GUILTY. As scum, you NEED TO GET TOWNIES ELIMINATED TO WIN. So I don't buy whatsoever the notion that you'd "just chill" here - you need to push someone and I've very conveniently been made a target. Getting rid of another SE is beneficial because it's significantly easier to control newbies in an endgame situation. You've set up your "POE", the strength of which frankly reeks of TMI townreads, and you have to vote in a way that's consistent with that.


If you were actually not certain about me being scum, what have you actually done to solve me? Because so far the answer has been trying to flip me.

[catboi]

I feel very similarly to this in the other direction. catboi-town should know better than to scumread me here.

I guess I started writing this post thinking catboi should know my meta better than to think that this kind of thing is scum-indicative from me but that's probably not true since we haven't played in a while and only a few games (i think?) and my train of thought kind of wandered from there so let me rephrase this for clarity:

catboi-town should know better than to lockscum me here.

We haven't played that much in games that are recent/relevant, but I refuse to believe you come after me with such awful reasoning as town.