Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[SpyreX]

Thats fine. Although I am calling attention to this now for you being a good scum canidate if I'm wrong

EVER FALLEN IN LOVE WITH SOMEONE YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE FALLEN IN LOVE WITH?

StrangerCoug - 4 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx, Manito)
SpyreX - 3 (Netlava, ThAdmiral, StrangerCoug)
Netlava - 1 (orangepenguin)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven

10/6

-Mod

[StrangerCoug]

Absolutely no reasoning given. No chance for Knight of Cydonia to defend himself. Yet he dies.

When asked for a reason:

Yea he had no chance that whole time all those votes started piling on. I thought he was suspicious and we were dragging, so I killed him. Yep.

Because you never offered him such.

SORRY ABOUT NO REASON NEXT TIME I SHOULD FIND A WHOPPER LIKE HE DIDNT GIVE ME A PBPA BECAUSE THATS SOO SCUMMY.

It didn't necessarily have to be the failure to be a promised post; you could have spat out a scummy thing or two Knight of Cydonia did and be fine with it.

What the hell, SpyreX? If your mental odds of Knight of Cydonia were more than 50%, then why on planet Earth did you hammer!?

Because it 50% is still enough for me to kill a scummy player? I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Right before the death scene, you said that, even though you found Knight of Cydonia scummy, you thought it more likely that he would flip town. He did.

This doesn't do anything to convince me you're town. In fact, you seem to acknowledge committing a scummy action.

What? When did I ever say that what I did was a scummy action.. in fact

Now, you mention that I said I wasn't surprised. I wasn't. It was obvious that wagon came on too fast from too many directions with no new reasons for the lynch for me to think it was a sure-fire scumhit. However, was KoC scummy? Sure was. Would KoC being alive have helped? Only as a body, but more as a perfect distraction for the scum on later days - we still have some eggs we can break for this omlete and I have no problem nailing scummy players.

In fact, pulling that wagon away (which I thought of) ultimatley had more negatives than positives:

- There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong.
- Pulling the wagon wouldn't alleviate his scummy play and would have made him a distraction on later days (see how K7 / FL are lynch candidates each day)
- It would NOT have given the analysis on that wagon that I am very sure has scum on it.

So, yep, I did it. I saw no need for a "last plea" - really, those are for role-based games to make sure you dont powerlynch a scummy cop or the like. In the game with just vanilla , yea, those player will and should be hung.

So that = me admitting it was scummy? Par for the course!

You went out of context with my remark. What you said came off to me as not caring about him in the least.

And look at this: "There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong."

YOU HAMMERED TOWN WELL AWARE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH. DESPITE HIS SCUMMY ACTIONS, YOU SAW THE ODDS AS KNIGHT OF CYDONIA BEING TOWN, BUT KILLED HIM ANYWAY.

Ladies and gentlemen, SpyreX is a hypocrite. His case on me is that I just followed along with the town without adding my own input, but this is him doing EXACTLY THAT.

My case on you is that you, THIS ENTIRE GAME, have followed along with the town without adding your own input. That everything you've done has been bandwagon hopping and reactionary. How you can equate that to the post you quoted as being the same just doesn't make sense.

Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will.

Anyone who does not see this as lining up lynches is blind.

Or illiterate because I WAS SETTING UP LYNCHES. ITS NOT LIKE I WAS HIDING IT WOO.

If FL is scum, K7 is the proper lynch because...all of his play.

You need to be more specific than that.

No, I'm saying you're encouraging it. Not guilty of it yourself.

Maybe I've just been being too nice about this.

You're whole "Manito or Llama" OMG fest today was stupid. It was also scummy because you really dont seem to care which one and, yet, somehow you over and over have said ONE MUST BE SCUM.

Not that I don't care, but that I haven't figured out which one. I've defended this already.

[armlx]

This case is less convincing than your other ones and is just as likely to lead us to another town lynch.

Why thAd? Don't just say shit and not back it up.

The flip flop on FS is a good point SpyreX made with respect to SC, as well as the string of scummy posts re: K7 v Corin and the distancing from FL.

YOU HAMMERED TOWN WELL AWARE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH. DESPITE HIS SCUMMY ACTIONS, YOU SAW THE ODDS AS KNIGHT OF CYDONIA BEING TOWN, BUT KILLED HIM ANYWAY.

This has been discussed. KoC was scummier then par, but not super scummy like FS. Worse lynches could have been made, and the day was stalling on it.

Replacing Joubert with K7 in the scum trio isn't a big step. All essentially a hunt for a random lurker.

[SpyreX]

Because you never offered him such.

Are you for real?

Its not like that wagon took place over a day. He had plenty of time.

It didn't necessarily have to be the failure to be a promised post; you could have spat out a scummy thing or two Knight of Cydonia did and be fine with it.

Again, I'm not sure if the sarcasm is missing you or not.

I DID say I found him scummy that day. More than once.

You kept leaping back and forth and landed on keeping it there

because he did not give a PBPA

of KILLER SEVEN

.

Right before the death scene, you said that, even though you found Knight of Cydonia scummy, you thought it more likely that he would flip town. He did.

Yes, and? With the speed it picked up I had a feeling that he was going to flip town. He did. That doesn't change the fact that he was scummy. That doesn't change the fact the only way I would have known, for sure, would be to kill him. I'm not of the "ohh let the scummy players live" mentality. Never have, never will.

You went out of context with my remark. What you said came off to me as not caring about him in the least.

I went out of context? You implied that I was admitting being scummy.. when I never did. In fact I pretty much say the opposite and give my reasons for it.

And look at this: "There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong." YOU HAMMERED TOWN WELL AWARE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH. DESPITE HIS SCUMMY ACTIONS, YOU SAW THE ODDS AS KNIGHT OF CYDONIA BEING TOWN, BUT KILLED HIM ANYWAY.

You're not good at caps. Also not good at bolds apparently. Good thing we dont have sirens.

First off, I hammered a scummy player - he was not known as town until after the hammer. So don't play the "KILLING TOWN OMG" business with it.

Despite his scummy actions, I saw a distinct possiblity that he was town, yes. Does that mean I was correct? No. How could I prove I was correct? By the lynch. What did I do? Lynch him.

God, one of the reasons why I thought he might be town was the speed people climbed on that lynch. Guess, just GUESS, who one of them was?

Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will.

"Take away all the extra bad stuff I did and compare the actions of a singular day and there WILL be a similarity"

However, that has no bearing on the fact I have said you have been doing it all game. I didn't make that up. Also, and I cant believe have to say this, removing all the extra scummy things you did that day OF COURSE there will be similarities. It is those SELFSAME things that you are asking to REMOVE that ARE scummy for that day.

You need to be more specific than that.

Sorry, not spoonfeeding you another avenue of discussion that is going to have no bearing on today for you to squeak out of. Its not rocket science and anyone who gives a care can find exactly what I'm talking about.

Not that I don't care, but that I haven't figured out which one. I've defended this already.

Why are you holding on to this? This is what set off the final red flag to being with and you're still doing it. Just because they are fighting doesn't mean ONE HAS TO BE SCUM. You are being willfully obtuse and it hurts.

Of course, considering you are scum, I guess I should be thankful for it.

[orangepenguin]

Let's get this over with.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Going off a memory, I didn't think he was that scummy, but seeing his posts, him saying one thing, but never following up on it, vote hopping, and whatnot, it's convincing enough to warrant a vote, I think.

[armlx]

So... OP, is he scummy or not?

[orangepenguin]

He's scummy. But is he actually scum? I don't know for sure. But if he flips town, I will surely be voting Spyrex. His cases are "good", but the results..are not.

[LlamaFluff]

The “Manito is scum lets lynch him” post

I will try to be making this as concise as possible so it doesn’t turn into some monster post that eats up pages upon pages in word, but there is quite a bit to cover here.

1 - The Day 1.5 wagon in relation to K7

Now, the final vote count for day 1.5 left Corin at a deadline lynch over k7 by one vote. During this scramble between the two players where votes got shuffled around quite a bit, manito kept his vote on FL. During the list activity I put out during D1.5 though we find that manitos LoS was FL, Joubert, K7. This is where things get weird. During the last part of that day, manito was presented with two options, vote for his third suspect on his LoS and stop someone who he sure appeared to have a town read (and now is arguing for his life that he did) to get lynched. Or he could of kept his vote on FL and let someone that he had a town read on get killed without making any strong attempts to prevent this from happening. Manito played the end of the day to the extent where he allowed a perceived town player get lynched and let a player he had, and since has vehemently, called scum. This is not a town action.

1.1 – Use of Day 1.5 wagon in cases

Since the lynch of Corin, at most possible opportunities, we have seen manito throw out the fact that people voted for Corin over K7 as a scumtell. This means that manito thinks that K7 is scum, how else could this be considered a scumtell? This relates back to the D1.5 lynch. He is now getting on people for protecting the player he JUST had the opportunity to get lynched. This is just further evidence that there was an intentional avoidance of the entire D1.5 lynching scene by manito.

1.2 – Stance on k7

There has been some flip-flops on k7 being scum or not as well. In manitos 47 there are beyond obvious implications that he has a read of scum on k7. How else does he have “defended k7” as a scumtell? When I challenged him on these points, he quickly dropped k7 to town though, due to the point that he had been not posting in his 51. When we return to his 56 though, and the small debate of “why didn’t you vote K7 D1.5?” had blown over, he goes back to putting K7 back on his LoS. This is attributed to lurking, which is the same reason that he had K7 drop off his list in 51.

2 – Avoidance of Wagons

Manito has done a good job so far at calling nearly every mislynch as it happens. D1.5, he called Corin perfectly. D2.0 he called KoC with relative ease. Most other people were “fooled” by at least one of these wagons. Not manito though, he just clung to his “FL is scum, not voting anyone else” statements. The two instances where he did break from this pattern and vote on a lynching wagon were fl and FS, which both have been used to his advantage. fls lynch quickly got turned against FL and has been used quite a bit to try and get that wagon to the lynching stage. If you look at the timing of votes and posts though there is an interesting pattern that occurred. Four posts after manito moved to a fl vote from an (interestingly enough) FoS on k7, he already set in on FL, this was still being done on day 1.0. In his 13, there is also a distinct move to get FL to vote for fl.

2.1 – Constant push of FL

Since quite argueablely his 11th post in the game, manito has expressed intrest in a lynch of FL. We all know he wants a lynch but at the same time he has not taken many great steps to assure that the lynch would take place. There are mentions of the case and some small debates which mainly are concentrated in early D1.5, but dried up since then. For all of D2.0 the most that manito does is add the Corin vote to why he wants FL lynched. Time wise he appears to spend more time defending KoC then attacking FL. We saw more of the same in 2.5, defending himself this time though. Its fairly clear that manito doesn’t seem to have a lynch of FL a high priority in this game. He mentions the name quite a bit but around this point in the game I have to hunt for any concrete reasoning for the lynch, you would think that something that has been pushed for the past five lynches would of first been easily identified and second actually pushed to completion at this point. Neither have occurred. I think this is just scum camping on a wagon so he doesn’t have to do any scumhunting, just point to FL and say “theres the scum”.

3.1 – The Llama is Bossy Case

A major part of why I seem to be suspected by manito right now is that he says that I am too bossy for him. I am being accused of voting people to make them listen to me, and forcing everyone to vote with me. This is not only an over exaggeration, since I believe the only players I have voted for are Corin, KoC, FS, manito, but also blatantly false. I do try and get my ideas out there, it helps to see the reactions of a large group of people. I do try and make people act, so it can be reviewed later. I don’t run around and try and get everyone who doesn’t listen to me scum. This “scumtell” of his is the equivalent of the “over defensive” tell. They both are very weak at best, and are commonly used to pad cases that need extra evidence to make them look desirable to other players.

3.2 – Guilt by Association Case

Manito always seems to have a hard time pushing my case without mentioning that k7 and FL (netlava) are scum. By doing this he is using an assumption of other players alignments to get my lynched. In the chain of posts where manito presents a case, there were 39 posts refrenced that he called me scum for. Out of those 39 posts, manito uses “k7 and FL are scum” based arguments in 18. Nearly half of everything that was presented against me are conditional of k7 and FL being scum. The fact that manito is trying to push the end of a chain (me) on the beginning of a chain (k7 and FL) is scummy. There is a natural order of proof and progression in this game, and manito is trying to throw it aside while at the same time using it for evidence.

[SpyreX]

Sharp and concise. I like it. It is persuasive and I can't wait to see what Manito has to say about it.

However, me being as stubborn as you llama - whats you're feelings about the SC / SpyreX throwdown. Personally, I would MUCH rather have this resolved today so its not dangling if we screw up at lylo (although I really doubt it).

I'd like YOU to go through and poke some holes in what I'm saying about SC. Arm and TSPN too.

[armlx]

Meh. My only issue with the case is it sounds like you were really on tilt while writing it, which is a null tell but makes the case seem a lot worse in the abstract.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd like YOU to go through and poke some holes in what I'm saying about SC. Arm and TSPN too.

From what I see there are not really holes in it, but for the most part it consits of a repetiton of fact being "SC is

schizophrenic

indecisive

opportunistic with his voting."

I agree with you on that, there does seem to be a lack of scumhunting coming from him, and a decent ammount of "follow the leader" as has been found on the main wagons, or at least the ones that are most vocal.

I just think that when you compare the ammount of scumtells that have been in this game between SC and manito that we should be lynching manito today instead of him.

[SpyreX]

I was a little on tilt. Loosey-goosey.

I just can't get past the focus on Manito / LF all day until people start in on me then jumping on ready to go. The FL business is a nice touch.

He's been a pro-grade hopper which if the game was going WELL is bad enough - when its town after town its very suspect.

The only reason I'm leary about Manito is that IF you're wrong tomorrow will -probably- be SC and IF I'm wrong then guaranteed they'll want one of us for the lylo fail - and I dont want that. (OHH NOES I AM CHAIN LYNCHING AND TALKING LIKE A NORMAL TO BOTH ARMLX AND LLAMA WHAT CAN IT MEAN)

[Manito]

1 - The Day 1.5 wagon in relation to K7

Now, the final vote count for day 1.5 left Corin at a deadline lynch over k7 by one vote. During this scramble between the two players where votes got shuffled around quite a bit, manito kept his vote on FL. During the list activity I put out during D1.5 though we find that manitos LoS was FL, Joubert, K7. This is where things get weird. During the last part of that day, manito was presented with two options, vote for his third suspect on his LoS and stop someone who he sure appeared to have a town read (and now is arguing for his life that he did) to get lynched. Or he could of kept his vote on FL and let someone that he had a town read on get killed without making any strong attempts to prevent this from happening. Manito played the end of the day to the extent where he allowed a perceived town player get lynched and let a player he had, and since has vehemently, called scum. This is not a town action.

As I have already addressed this "point" of yours multiple times, I guess I need to again, since you seem to ignore everything I say. As stated previously, Joubert and K7 were only on my list because they were lurkers, and I specifically stated this when I posted my "list". Of course I didn't vote K7 - he was lurker suspicious, not a vote option for me based on the evidence. When are you going to hear me saying this, over and over, and actually get it through your head?

You accuse me of not making any strong attempts to prevent the mislynch (hindsight is great, isn't it), yet you still have failed, time and again, to reply to my posts asking you why you pushed Corin so hard with no evidence. You'll also notice that people besides myself (see my earlier posts on page 71) asked you for more evidence at the time (yet it didn't stop the push) and you failed to provide it.

Stop dodging my questions by accusing me more, and provide some answers.

1.1 – Use of Day 1.5 wagon in cases

Since the lynch of Corin, at most possible opportunities, we have seen manito throw out the fact that people voted for Corin over K7 as a scumtell. This means that manito thinks that K7 is scum, how else could this be considered a scumtell? This relates back to the D1.5 lynch. He is now getting on people for protecting the player he JUST had the opportunity to get lynched. This is just further evidence that there was an intentional avoidance of the entire D1.5 lynching scene by manito.

Weak point. Doesn't even summarize what my reasoning was. Go back and re-read the post. You pushed the vote on Corin, with no evidence but weak meta comparison and lurker, dodged all request for more evidence (and you still are, even now). My reasoning back then has nothing to do with my reasoning now, and you're trying to connect the two rather poorly. On D1.5, K7 was a terse lurker who was otherwise unsuspicious. On D3.0, combined with the evidence from the voting patterns and your behavior, has brought me to the conclusion that his actions on D1.5 were in collusion with you.

1.2 – Stance on k7

There has been some flip-flops on k7 being scum or not as well. In manitos 47 there are beyond obvious implications that he has a read of scum on k7. How else does he have “defended k7” as a scumtell? When I challenged him on these points, he quickly dropped k7 to town though, due to the point that he had been not posting in his 51. When we return to his 56 though, and the small debate of “why didn’t you vote K7 D1.5?” had blown over, he goes back to putting K7 back on his LoS. This is attributed to lurking, which is the same reason that he had K7 drop off his list in 51.

If you're going to quote a post of mine, don't say Manito's 47, etc. - I don't know what that refers to. My 47th post on this thread, my 47th post on this site in my profile, what? If you're going to quote, quote specific post number, or even better, provide a link - makes it much easier to track down what you're referring to, especially when its from 1800+ posts ago. 47 sounds like it was right after D1.0, at which point K7 was still (1) posting (2) very scummy after his push on fl from the day before.

You defending K7 IS a scumtell, because of your reasoning behind it.

As I have previously quoted, your stated reason for defending K7 was this - (1) the people attacking K7 were on your "scum" list at the time (2) K7's meta.

As we've already shown with your terrible push on Corin via meta, using meta as a reason to lynch or for innocence is patently stupid. So, since you still haven't answered this question from my previous large posts -

why are you defending K7 still, outside of the weak reasoning I just stated above?

2 – Avoidance of Wagons

Manito has done a good job so far at calling nearly every mislynch as it happens. D1.5, he called Corin perfectly. D2.0 he called KoC with relative ease. Most other people were “fooled” by at least one of these wagons. Not manito though, he just clung to his “FL is scum, not voting anyone else” statements. The two instances where he did break from this pattern and vote on a lynching wagon were fl and FS, which both have been used to his advantage. fls lynch quickly got turned against FL and has been used quite a bit to try and get that wagon to the lynching stage. If you look at the timing of votes and posts though there is an interesting pattern that occurred. Four posts after manito moved to a fl vote from an (interestingly enough) FoS on k7, he already set in on FL, this was still being done on day 1.0. In his 13, there is also a distinct move to get FL to vote for fl.

Beautiful way to twist the facts. Too bad it doesn't hold up if you read my posts. I have refused to vote and jump on wagons because of

lack of evidence presented

. You take this information, and say that I'm intentionally avoiding voting on major wagons.

Maybe if you answered my questions about the Corin lynch and the lack of evidence, you'd have the real reason I didn't vote Corin or K7. Your case didn't hold up and wasn't well supported at ALL.

2.1 – Constant push of FL

Since quite argueablely his 11th post in the game, manito has expressed intrest in a lynch of FL. We all know he wants a lynch but at the same time he has not taken many great steps to assure that the lynch would take place. There are mentions of the case and some small debates which mainly are concentrated in early D1.5, but dried up since then. For all of D2.0 the most that manito does is add the Corin vote to why he wants FL lynched. Time wise he appears to spend more time defending KoC then attacking FL. We saw more of the same in 2.5, defending himself this time though. Its fairly clear that manito doesn’t seem to have a lynch of FL a high priority in this game. He mentions the name quite a bit but around this point in the game I have to hunt for any concrete reasoning for the lynch, you would think that something that has been pushed for the past five lynches would of first been easily identified and second actually pushed to completion at this point. Neither have occurred. I think this is just scum camping on a wagon so he doesn’t have to do any scumhunting, just point to FL and say “theres the scum”.

You didn't see FL's vote of Corin on 1.5 as scummy at all? Please, I'd love to hear your reasoning on that. I have FL lynch as a very high priority in this game - why are you sitting here contradicting your own statements???

One second, you're accusing me of not jumping wagons because I'm too focused on FL, and the next second you're accusing me of not pushing FL hard enough - WHICH IS IT?

I hate to break it to you, but you can't argue it both ways. I would have loved to have lynched FL back on D1.5 - but you made sure that didn't happen, didn't you (even though FL made it to L-2). Amazing how FL just stopped posting any relative content during 1.5, while you pushed incredibly hard for the Corin lynch (which amazingly enough, FL jumped on last minute). Now, I'll ask you AGAIN since it seems to be very difficult for you to respond to these questions -

why are you still defending FL based on the same reasons stated above - the fact that people on your "scum list" at the time were attacking FL - at this point in time? Saying someone is town because someone you think is scum is attacking them is VERY poor reasoning - either back up your claim, or stop hiding behind it.

3.1 – The Llama is Bossy Case

A major part of why I seem to be suspected by manito right now is that he says that I am too bossy for him. I am being accused of voting people to make them listen to me, and forcing everyone to vote with me. This is not only an over exaggeration, since I believe the only players I have voted for are Corin, KoC, FS, manito, but also blatantly false. I do try and get my ideas out there, it helps to see the reactions of a large group of people. I do try and make people act, so it can be reviewed later. I don’t run around and try and get everyone who doesn’t listen to me scum. This “scumtell” of his is the equivalent of the “over defensive” tell. They both are very weak at best, and are commonly used to pad cases that need extra evidence to make them look desirable to other players.

As seen in my previous post - this isn't an exaggeration. I have quoted, multiple times, where you have stated that you're voting someone until they "respond to post #XXX". As a matter of fact, you did that exact thing to Corin on D1.5 - and ended up getting him lynched with your pushiness.

3.2 – Guilt by Association Case

Manito always seems to have a hard time pushing my case without mentioning that k7 and FL (netlava) are scum. By doing this he is using an assumption of other players alignments to get my lynched. In the chain of posts where manito presents a case, there were 39 posts refrenced that he called me scum for. Out of those 39 posts, manito uses “k7 and FL are scum” based arguments in 18. Nearly half of everything that was presented against me are conditional of k7 and FL being scum. The fact that manito is trying to push the end of a chain (me) on the beginning of a chain (k7 and FL) is scummy. There is a natural order of proof and progression in this game, and manito is trying to throw it aside while at the same time using it for evidence.

Again, an attempt to twist the facts to look one way, when I presented them in another. My basis for calling you scum is fundamentally based on your own actions, especially your actions on D1.5 with the Corin pressure.

In retrospect, my research showed a pattern of K7 and FL coming up on people's radar and getting very high on the vote count, only to be defended directly by you (many of my quoted posts show you saying "let's lynch XXX instead of FL/K7") or defended from lynch indirectly by your heavy pushing on another wagon (see D1.5 vote counts, FL and K7 both were at 4-5+ votes, and for a while Corin was at zero - deadline was set and *poof* votes magically start appearing on Corin and disappearing from FL/K7).

The crux of my case is not your association with K7/FL - so stop trying to twist it that way. Your association with them, in combination with your already demonstrable scummy behavior separate from them, supports the case - it doesn't define it.

And I'm sure I'm getting repetitive here, but I'll make sure to ask it one more time, just to make sure it's getting through to you.

Answer my questions about your refusal to provide more evidence on Corin, and why you pushed it so hard without anything to back it up, on D1.5. Stop dodging and pointing elsewhere - I have been taking the time to respond and defend directly against your posts on me - please do the same and quit being hypocritical. Hopefully the big red text will capture your attention long enough to finally elicit the required response.

[LlamaFluff]

Making it big and red does not make it a valid point.

First of the posts that I reference are the post number of yours in the thread. I personally don’t like hypers though (probally because I cant link to specific posts or stuff like that). I just pull up a new tab/window and have it list all posts by the player.

I still am not sure how you keep coming off as calling me scum for the Corin lynch not being “strong” in your opinion. This will be the first time I have had to argue the validity of a case AFTER a player was lynched using it. I guess my

sweet talking

bullying people outweighs evidence.

Anyways. I presented quite a bit of evidence against Corin during D1.5. The posts that I directly presented evidence are my 5, 49 (I wasn’t voting him until my 46) and 52. My 52 was post 855, and reading the rest of the day, I don’t ever see a response to that post. We see Corin debate KoC being suspicious of him in 1025 (no response to 855 yet, been almost 200 posts). Different point argued again with no response to my post in 1040 (I did respond to this in 1043). Corin more or less makes a goodbye post in 1071 (again that’s not a response to 855).

That’s it for Corin really. I made my case in my fifth post, did a PBPA in 49, made another case in 52. Corin didn’t respond to my 855, even when I referenced him to it. He argued other small points but if a suspect refuses to respond to a main point that does not mean that you stop pushing them. All this argument is seems to be “You got town lynched”. You are reaching right now for something to make me scum.

[StrangerCoug]

Because you never offered him such.

Are you for real?

Yes, I am for real, he-who-refuses-to-acknowledge-other-people's-existence.

Its not like that wagon took place over a day. He had plenty of time.

Whatever.

It didn't necessarily have to be the failure to be a promised post; you could have spat out a scummy thing or two Knight of Cydonia did and be fine with it.

Again, I'm not sure if the sarcasm is missing you or not.

It wouldn't be the first time.

I DID say I found him scummy that day. More than once.

You kept leaping back and forth and landed on keeping it there

because he did not give a PBPA

of KILLER SEVEN

.

Plus other things.

Right before the death scene, you said that, even though you found Knight of Cydonia scummy, you thought it more likely that he would flip town. He did.

Yes, and? With the speed it picked up I had a feeling that he was going to flip town. He did. That doesn't change the fact that he was scummy. That doesn't change the fact the only way I would have known, for sure, would be to kill him. I'm not of the "ohh let the scummy players live" mentality. Never have, never will.

Then why did you mention Knight of Cydonia possibly being town in the first place?

You went out of context with my remark. What you said came off to me as not caring about him in the least.

I went out of context? You implied that I was admitting being scummy.. when I never did. In fact I pretty much say the opposite and give my reasons for it.

Your response implied your admission.

And look at this: "There was a decent chance KoC was scum and I was wrong." YOU HAMMERED TOWN WELL AWARE OF THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH. DESPITE HIS SCUMMY ACTIONS, YOU SAW THE ODDS AS KNIGHT OF CYDONIA BEING TOWN, BUT KILLED HIM ANYWAY.

You're not good at caps. Also not good at bolds apparently. Good thing we dont have sirens.

To hell with semantics.

First off, I hammered a scummy player - he was not known as town until after the hammer. So don't play the "KILLING TOWN OMG" business with it.

I wouldn't be hadn't you discussed Knight of Cydonia being town before the mod revealed his alignment.

Despite his scummy actions, I saw a distinct possiblity that he was town, yes. Does that mean I was correct? No. How could I prove I was correct? By the lynch. What did I do? Lynch him.

Tell me how testing whether someone is town or not by lynching them is pro-town.

God, one of the reasons why I thought he might be town was the speed people climbed on that lynch. Guess, just GUESS, who one of them was?

You, since you made no objection to the speed of his wagon before the hammer.

Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will.

"Take away all the extra bad stuff I did and compare the actions of a singular day and there WILL be a similarity"

"Screw StrangerCoug's case on me; I don't care about town lynches."

However, that has no bearing on the fact I have said you have been doing it all game. I didn't make that up. Also, and I cant believe have to say this, removing all the extra scummy things you did that day OF COURSE there will be similarities. It is those SELFSAME things that you are asking to REMOVE that ARE scummy for that day.

You cannot accuse me of following along with Knight of Cydonia's lynch specifically without taking into account that you followed suit for the same reason why I cannot accuse LlamaFluff of being bossy without taking into account that I agreed with why he was so.

You need to be more specific than that.

Sorry, not spoonfeeding you another avenue of discussion that is going to have no bearing on today for you to squeak out of. Its not rocket science and anyone who gives a care can find exactly what I'm talking about.

One, I need reminders. Two, denying the town discussion is scummy.

Not that I don't care, but that I haven't figured out which one. I've defended this already.

Why are you holding on to this? This is what set off the final red flag to being with and you're still doing it. Just because they are fighting doesn't mean ONE HAS TO BE SCUM. You are being willfully obtuse and it hurts.

They're still in my top three, and I haven't forgotten about other.

Of course, considering you are scum, I guess I should be thankful for it.

Likewise for you.

[somestrangeflea]

Searching for a replacement for killa seven.

[Manito]

Making it big and red does not make it a valid point.

First of the posts that I reference are the post number of yours in the thread. I personally don’t like hypers though (probally because I cant link to specific posts or stuff like that). I just pull up a new tab/window and have it list all posts by the player.

I still am not sure how you keep coming off as calling me scum for the Corin lynch not being “strong” in your opinion. This will be the first time I have had to argue the validity of a case AFTER a player was lynched using it. I guess my

sweet talking

bullying people outweighs evidence.

Anyways. I presented quite a bit of evidence against Corin during D1.5. The posts that I directly presented evidence are my 5, 49 (I wasn’t voting him until my 46) and 52. My 52 was post 855, and reading the rest of the day, I don’t ever see a response to that post. We see Corin debate KoC being suspicious of him in 1025 (no response to 855 yet, been almost 200 posts). Different point argued again with no response to my post in 1040 (I did respond to this in 1043). Corin more or less makes a goodbye post in 1071 (again that’s not a response to 855).

That’s it for Corin really. I made my case in my fifth post, did a PBPA in 49, made another case in 52. Corin didn’t respond to my 855, even when I referenced him to it. He argued other small points but if a suspect refuses to respond to a main point that does not mean that you stop pushing them. All this argument is seems to be “You got town lynched”. You are reaching right now for something to make me scum.

Dodge, dodge, dodge.

Your 855 "evidence" was weak at best - pure speculation about what you thought his intentions could be based on many other factors that you had no way of backing up. Speculating that an FoS on FL on D1.0 was to set up a lynch on 1.5 on FL *IF* fl flipped town is faulty logic.

Most of your case against him in 855 is - and this is a really big shocker - he's attacking FL. Who you keep defending. A defense you refuse to explain, and continue to dodge when asked about.

You called FL innocent because 3 people you thought were scum were pushing to get her lynched - yet you've managed to get 2 of the 3 on that list lynched (and they both flipped TOWN) - so your logic is shot full of holes at this point -

saying FL is still innocent when it has been revealed that town has been pushing the wagon on her gives you ZERO reason to proclaim her innocence.

(see Post #471 for proof of this)


I'd like to point out, you completely discount and ignore facts put right in front of you when the person who puts them there happens to be on your scum list at the time. Open your eyes and see the evidence.

I have already shown ample evidence that you IGNORED multiple requests for more evidence on Corin. Please read post #913 - Corin asks you then to restate your case. Armlx also says he doesn't see the case against Corin in posts #916 and #918. KoC posts in #927 that Corin's only remotely scummy act was the "I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit" statement, versus K7's multiple scummy acts.

Post #947 - OP doesn't find Corin scummy.

Post#960 - your reply to Corin's #913, where you say he doesn't defend himself, and you

completely ignore his request for you to

RESTATE

the case, not refer back to the pitiful one in #855.

Post #1069 - OP says Llama has built a strong case on Corin, which leads to:

Post #1071 - Corin asks what the case is, because the only evidence he can find that Llama is using is lurking and refusing to respond to Llama's posts initially (because of bully voting to elicit a response). He also states that the people agreeing with Llama or citing scummy behavior ALSO fail to quote or cite specific examples. You never respond to this post (even though you make a post in 1084 to attempt to push the people not on wagon to jump on) and you say nothing outside of 1084. Were you hoping the deadline would save you from having to respond to Corin's questions and your actions on 1.5?

Post#1106 - Joubert rereads and can't find the scummy behavior everyone says Corin has.

So, I'll say it again, since the big red text still didn't result in a response.

Why did you refuse to restate or provide more evidence on Corin, given all the above information?

You were asked multiple times, and your case had doubt thrown upon it by multiple parties. Your refusal to respond because it is a past case on a person who is already lynched is DODGING. Quit hiding, defend your actions, because they alone are incredibly scummy, and the fact that you continue to refuse to defend your actions is even more scummy.

[Manito]

Searching for a replacement for killa seven.

About time.

[SpyreX]

Yes, I am for real, he-who-refuses-to-acknowledge-other-people's-existence.

What does this even mean? I'm not acknowledging you? Or?

Whatever.

Excellent retort.

Just so people who are watching the play-by-play remember. You jumped on me for not giving KoC enough time to defend himself. My reply was that he had plenty of time. Your response to this is.. whatever.

Plus other things.

Cite. Show.

Then why did you mention Knight of Cydonia possibly being town in the first place?

Because I thought there was the distinct possibility that he was town?
Enough that I mentioned it. However, not enough for me to stop said hammer for multiple reasons that I've listed over and over again.

Your response implied your admission.

OHHH. Wait, nope. Still not seeing it. I explained why I did it - not because it was inherently scummy but to show WHY I did it.

I wouldn't be hadn't you discussed Knight of Cydonia being town before the mod revealed his alignment.

So is it scummy that I called FS scum and I was wrong? Or... does that change one whit about it. My not having the without a shadow of a doubt scumvibes doesn't mean I'm not going to hammer. Srsly.

Tell me how testing whether someone is town or not by lynching them is pro-town.

I can play this game!
Tell me how letting scummy players live until lylo because they MIGHT be town is pro-town.
Tell me how not building a case on anyone is pro-town.
Tell me how vote jumping between wagons is pro-town.
Tell me how tunnel-visioning is pro-town.
Tell her about it. Tell her everything you feel.

You, since you made no objection to the speed of his wagon before the hammer.

Yes. I thought he might be town because I sped onto the wagon before I hammered yet I was the hammer... wait, that doesn't make any sense, now does it.

"Screw StrangerCoug's case on me; I don't care about town lynches."

You're still bad at this. Keep trying though.

Funny thing is that, with a small moficiation and separating those two statements that are not conditional with each other they're both right. Lets try it adding one word: bad.

"Screw StrangerCoug's bad case on me."
"I dont care about bad town (player) lynches." - With the addendum that it is not lylo yet.

I am of the separate chaff from the wheat variety of player. Playing scummy is grounds for death. I'm not, especially early on, gonna bite my nails about it - I am going to kill them every chance I get. I do not want them around to screw up the late game. So, no, if they've done things that I find scummy I will lynch them.

BUT, I digress. Back to why I made my original quote of how silly your statement was. We'll play it like a math problem. (Although I am simplifying it)

The Scum Equation.

Variables:

A. Consistency.
B. Vote Hopping.
C. Absence of Building a Case.
D. Poor Reasons for Votes

I am saying A(B + C + D) = You Being Scum.
You are accusing me of D.
But, then, you said: "Take away the bandwagon hopping and reactionary posts of mine that you speak of, compare my actions to yours that day, and it will."
So, we're now only looking at a single day. So that would scratch A.
We're eliminating your hopping votes. There goes B.
We're getting rid of reactionary posts. I'm feeling nice so I'll get rid of C.

So, you are saying D = D! SEE ITS THE SAME.
Now, aside from the fact that D in this instance does NOT equal D... by eliminating all the other variables and trying to say the case I have on you is the same as the one you "have" on me.. is being willfully obtuse.

Which leads me to:

You cannot accuse me of following along with Knight of Cydonia's lynch specifically without taking into account that you followed suit for the same reason why I cannot accuse LlamaFluff of being bossy without taking into account that I agreed with why he was so.

IF I was saying your

actions around the KoC lynch

were the ONLY time you'd done this..maybe there'd be a point to this line of argument. However, I am saying you've consistently done this and, in the consistency, lies the scumminess with it. So, shout D=D all the live long day. It doesn't and more to the point it has no real bearing on anything.

I think I've been too nice too long.. must..give...smarm.

One, I need reminders. Two, denying the town discussion is scummy.

Good thing I'm not denying the

town

discussion! Ahh thats better. As for reminders, just read its right there.

[SpyreX]

Sigh, now I'm going to really HAVE to reread the manito/llama bidness. Its hard.

On a happy note.

Searching for a replacement for killa seven.

<3

[StrangerCoug]

Plus other things.

Cite. Show.

Your wish is my command.

Post #276, Knights of Cydonia? What the hell?

FoS: Knight of Cydonia

until you explain it.

Let's start with this:

I have seen this debate a few times, and my position is always the same. A townie who is not too good is still a townie. They are still a body that mafia needs to get lynched, NK or endgame. Killing off someone because they are not a good player is handing scum a free pass for the day.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.

This is a lame defense and comes off to me as you thinking forbiddanlight was scum merely because she was confusing.

It's basically a pile of one-liners. Only once do you refer to a genuine post you've made, and your so-called case is just a shoddy, one-liner PBPA. That's not a case, that's a PBPA, and trying to pass it off as one is a lie. And only scum need to lie.
LYNCH ALL LIARS!

The last time I checked, lynch all liars does not apply merely because you disagree over what something is. Major self-contradictions (e.g. claiming to be a vigilante, then a vanilla townie) will usually trigger LAL, and there's probably other things that will set it off too, but I see this as a stretch and an excuse.

FaerieLord, that is the crux of my whole case against you - no town should ever actively seek to lynch town, or have a motive to lynch town - as LlamaFluff said, its still one more body in the Mafia's way. By admitting you wanted to lynch forbiddan as town, you merely confirm your scumminess.

Unless I misquoted you (and you should really avoid posting your opinions in other people's quote boxes, even if you set them off—harder to read and make out what's yours or not), this and the first set of quotes don't make sense together to me. Could you please explain?

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Which is why I don't worry as much about what he's saying. His vote is warranted, but I figured I'd point out the part where

he's stating that he'd be happy to see me go even as town.

That's NOT good, at all. But either way, I can't make much of it since my play has been horrid this game, so I just point it out so that it might be examined later.

I'm really glad you responded like this, forbiddan. Before, I had a 1% suspicion you might have been town. Now, it's somewhere around 0.00001%.
You've rather cleverly misinterpreted my post there. I said that I was pretty damn sure that you were scum, but that if you were town, you're doing us no help. I at no point said *bolded part*, I just stated that it makes no sense for a town player to do this, since it only helps the Mafia, and that if you were town, it wouldn't be a loss. I never said I was lynching you without caring if you were town or scum, which is what you've tried to imply.

I hate these two posts, especially in combination. I don't like how the wording of the first one comes off. Looking at them, yes, it does appear that forbiddanlight attempted to strawman Knight of Cydonia, but his defense doesn't match up well with the vibes I get from the first post.

Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

This is confirmation bias.

Also, just one for the rest of the town to consider - look who leapt to FL's defence as soon as heat came down: Llama and CF Riot. That makes three. Could be perfectly innocent, but if FL flips scum, as I'm sure he would, we might be onto something.

More confirmation bias with guilt by association added to the mix.

Vote: Knight of Cydonia

Your turn.

I wouldn't be hadn't you discussed Knight of Cydonia being town before the mod revealed his alignment.

So is it scummy that I called FS scum and I was wrong? Or... does that change one whit about it.

No, it is not scummy you were wrong about Firestarter being scum because you dedicated a post to his scumminess and convinced us to hammer him. You did no such post on Knight of Cydonia—you simply went "Yeah, he's scummy, and I'm not worried about the quick wagon" and proceeded to put him out of his misery even though the wagon gave you reason to believe that Knight of Cydonia was town.

One, I need reminders. Two, denying the town discussion is scummy.

Good thing I'm not denying the

town

discussion! Ahh thats better.

Get out of tunnel vision land.

[Netlava]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwn

[Netlava]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ThAdmiral]

This case is less convincing than your other ones and is just as likely to lead us to another town lynch.

Why thAd? Don't just say shit and not back it up.

I don't want to get caught in a "Massively Long Post War"

^tm

If he's wrong he dies tomorrow. So much more simple and elegant.

[orangepenguin]

This case is less convincing than your other ones and is just as likely to lead us to another town lynch.

Why thAd? Don't just say shit and not back it up.

I don't want to get caught in a "Massively Long Post War"

^tm

If he's wrong he dies tomorrow. So much more simple and elegant.

QFT