Micro 1034 | Meet me on the Astral Plane | Game Over!

[Wright and Justice]

like what gives YOU the right to come in and continuously assert that someone would do something in a certain way - when you know jack shit about that person other than playing a couple games with them.

you don't get to extrapolate data like that. it's upsetting gamma atp and while I'll tolerate for the most part shit you say about me I will absolutely put my foot down when you start your incessant gaslighty behavior towards gamma.

[Wright and Justice]

Votecount 1.8

AliceK(3)

~ Wright and Justice(248), T3(42), Flea The Magician(50)

Facebones(2)

~ innocentvillager(104), HoldenGolden(69)

Wright and Justice(1)

~ piratemollie(129)


Not Voting (3): Facebones(14), AliceK(7), Andresvmb(12)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-12-05 18:49:25)

FLAVOR

"All of you start running back to school."

"Things get worse."

btw if anyone wants a smart read on why wagons are not moving - 2 people off wagon are people who are getting wagoned which can strongly suggest that those people are both scum together!!

And the alternative theory? - IV is scum with Alice.

So in both worlds.

Alice scum.

I don't think there's any other worlds really past Alice + one of IV/Facebone atp.

[Wright and Justice]

How I reached this solve you may ask?

Let's start by removing the people I am sure are not scum: Holden + Flea + Piratemollie +Andres

Now we have left: T3, IV, Alice, Facebones

T3 unpaired with IV and Alice
IV unpaired with Facebones(mech) and T3
Alice unpaired with T3
Facebones unpaired with IV(mech)

From that we have:
T3/Facebones (I have a light townread on T3 but I just never fully trust T3 atp because I've been snowed so many times but also am hesitant to send a scumread there because i've also mislimmed them a few times recently)
Alice/IV
Alice/Facebones

And thus - this is why I have my vote currently on Alice and have no issue with the FB wagon.
IV has towntold to a degree recently but I still see concerns regarding what FB claims they said in the hood - which I'd like to see IV explain why they said such things.


But this is where my thought process is at.

[Wright and Justice]

eta: lol. I guess Gamma went AWOL. That isn't Gamma., lmao

You clearly don’t know anything about me based on this. I’m dead serious that being marginalized is something I dislike in all corners of life. I have to struggle to get a word in edgewise with my family because they cannot shut up for long enough to actually allow a natural break to occur for me to chime in when I’d like to. It’s straight-up problematic that your reaction to me expressing a real problem I have IRL is to discard my feelings. Might I bring up I can’t recall a single significant interaction between us outside of playing mafia? There have been people who have chosen to get to know me outside of just playing mafia. You haven’t, and yet here you are claiming to be an authority on how I feel. That doesn’t feel okay, and while it’s a struggle to write this out, I think letting this go unspoken is way worse for me. I appreciate Koba also sticking up for me, but I need to put this out there myself as well.

-Justice

[pirate mollie]

I am just going to let things rest, and allow people to figure things out for themselves.

But, in case anyone is still listening to me, in our hood Dkoba said that they would imitate Gamma in a heart beat if they were scum, they are not outside of their scumrange.

That is all.

[Facebones]

IV is pushed to the brink, reveals who their Neighbor is, and then all of a sudden you back away (despite the detailed, rather compelling case from GH I might add that you never up to that point actually went back over, and after you confidently declare them Scum based on meta and their self-sabotage) to push on a slot that could clearly reveal who the last Neighbor potentially is (and since you’ve already revealed who your Neighbor is in piratemollie, there’s really not that many choices left).

Now I’m going to go finish reading, so maybe I’ll change my mind. And yeah, I can’t say that I think Holden is Scummy individually actually. They have a straightforward way of looking at the game and again, seem mighty competent. But it’s miraculous that IV got so close to the brink, revealed who their Neighbor was, and all of a sudden the votes there disappear as does the case. I need to read through the progression obviously, but I’m intrigued. This game is a very interesting read actually. I have a feeling the Scum Team is playing at a high level.

Thank you for bringing that up. It is sorta strange how quickly everything disipated after IV revealed his hood with me. The wagon which grew and suddenly disappeared on IV consisted of WJ, T3 and GoldenHolden, right?
And now T3 is voting Alice due to POE and agreeing with WJ's read?
It seems a bit sheepy and I'm not sure what to make of it.

Do you think it's possible that IV is scum here?
If IV was town, would scum let them off the hook so quickly after getting them to turn suicidal and being one vote away from hammer?

You might've been asked before, I dunno- what do you think about IV claiming to be in a hood with you? Do you think he was trying to fish for the FN?

[Facebones]

I really would like to be Town just once, I’ve forgotten what it’s like

People who have played with IV before-
When he is town, does he often make strange jokes about being scummy like this one?

[Andresvmb]

You can start complaining if I personally attack you or pretend like you don’t exist. That’s not what I’m doing. What I am doing is cautioning players from settling on the collective read they have of your slot because I know a member of the hydra is willing to go to great lengths as Scum to win a game. Not sure what’s so controversial about that.

Do you think I’d sit idly by and let Koba do things I disapprove of? I’m pretty sure I’ve already had to bring them in a little. It just seems like you’re completely ignoring my influence, and that offends me. Being marginalized is one of my pet peeves.
This also feels like you’re throwing paranoia our way for very little reason. Do you ACTUALLY think we’re scum rn? If not, why the shade?

-Justice

You are assuming I’m ignoring your influence. I have never said as much. The idea that your slot is being marginalized is a bit laughable - the game state revolves around your slot to a large extent. And it’s not “very little reason”. I’ve played multiple games with Koba. They’re extremely good at covering their tracks as Scum, and of making pushes that seem reasonable and aggressive as Scum. For the record, I don’t think your slot as a whole is engaged in that, particularly since you’ve switched to mostly ignoring piratemollie while calling them Town. But if you had railroaded the slot and it flips Town, then absolutely I would be on high alert. I have already said as much. You’re almost asking me to be absolutely certain about your alignment with no flips or other information. It’s just not reasonable.

[Andresvmb]

I didn't find Holden's case towny since it is predicated on IV's readslist being scummy for being nuanced. I

do

wonder how much of this is impacted by my hard tr on IV.

I also find it interesting that Holden is saying that when a game is this sludgey, it usually indicates that scum are okay with the gamestate - which seems to be slowly moving to an AliceK lim - and then says that they will lim Alicek.

Let's be honest, at that point in the game, town was too dysfunctional for AliceK to be a scum!lim.

My biggest thing on Holden is that he is trying to force a narrative (scummy motivated) rather than to probe deeper into why there is a lack of a town cohesive one (town motivated).

And there is Gamma, and Gamma is pretty scummy here.

eta: lol. I guess Gamma went AWOL. That isn't Gamma., lmao

Well, here is where I would disagree. Holden could be wrong about IV. There’s some really excellent Town players out there, and still no one has 100% accuracy. But the way the case was laid out and explained - that to me seemed to come from a Towny mindset.

Holden has done this a lot (and it’s something I do too) which I think speaks to such a mindset: they lay down a general point of view as to what it is they’re looking for, and then they explain how it might be what they’re observing a specific player do. Holden has basically argued - Scum need to leave multiple avenues open for executions early in games, because they don’t know how the game is going to develop (and they need flexibility), and so they’re more likely to express wishy washy reads (I’m summarizing rather crudely, but I could quote the posts and I think it’s somewhat fair). Town on the other hand is just trying to figure out who is Town and who is Scum, so they might argue more forcefully for a specific read early in the game (on average, Scum do tunnel, it varies, but you get the gist). What was IV doing? Being wishy washy, expressing significant uncertainty with every read they made, and in fact repeatedly emphasized how they didn’t have any Town Reads or Scum Reads (just Leans). You might disagree with the assumptions or the conclusion, but it’s clear where Holden is coming from. That’s Town indicative to me. I could be wrong in assuming that obviously. So you could question

my

assumption, or highlight inconsistencies, or perhaps argue that there’s a specific agenda behind what Holden is doing or it’s not sufficiently well reasoned. But I didn’t read Holden’s case and think to myself “this is a reach”, or “this seems superficial”. It can be wrong, and it’s not beyond what a solid Scum player can do, but I have to go off of what I have now and I don’t find it Scummy.

On the point about the game state, I don’t know if the point about the game sort of being stagnant was made when AliceK was the leading vote getter - I would have to check. The general point is something I’ve felt in other instances, so I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

I would prefer if you could detail specifically how Holden is pushing out a narrative instead of solving the game. I don’t think you’ve conclusively made that point.

And I don’t know if Gamma has been all that Scummy. Them getting all sensitive about how I’m discussing their contribution to the hydra far more often comes from Town than Scum I feel, so not sure I would agree with that.

[Andresvmb]

its been a sludge because the 2 main pushes have been mostly quiet and not active and hey - that kinda makes it *hard* to get movement.


notice how nobody is sheeping you on my slot now?

Are you a scumhunting genius now? That you can see through me so well when others have seen the same evidence and said basically "nah thats fucking NAI garbage"

humble thyself.

Koba I have seen you dismiss cases against your slot this forcefully as Scum though, so maybe take it down a notch? You can disagree with piratemollie’s case without minimizing their actual ability as Town.

[pirate mollie]

its been a sludge because the 2 main pushes have been mostly quiet and not active and hey - that kinda makes it *hard* to get movement.


notice how nobody is sheeping you on my slot now?

Are you a scumhunting genius now? That you can see through me so well when others have seen the same evidence and said basically "nah thats fucking NAI garbage"

humble thyself.

Koba I have seen you dismiss cases against your slot this forcefully as Scum though, so maybe take it down a notch? You can disagree with piratemollie’s case without minimizing their actual ability as Town.

I would settle for them addressing my case and the points I have made against them. Instead of frequenting with taunts and personal attacks.

That would be nice.

[pirate mollie]

I didn't find Holden's case towny since it is predicated on IV's readslist being scummy for being nuanced. I

do

wonder how much of this is impacted by my hard tr on IV.

I also find it interesting that Holden is saying that when a game is this sludgey, it usually indicates that scum are okay with the gamestate - which seems to be slowly moving to an AliceK lim - and then says that they will lim Alicek.

Let's be honest, at that point in the game, town was too dysfunctional for AliceK to be a scum!lim.

My biggest thing on Holden is that he is trying to force a narrative (scummy motivated) rather than to probe deeper into why there is a lack of a town cohesive one (town motivated).

And there is Gamma, and Gamma is pretty scummy here.

eta: lol. I guess Gamma went AWOL. That isn't Gamma., lmao

Well, here is where I would disagree. Holden could be wrong about IV. There’s some really excellent Town players out there, and still no one has 100% accuracy. But the way the case was laid out and explained - that to me seemed to come from a Towny mindset.

Holden has done this a lot (and it’s something I do too) which I think speaks to such a mindset: they lay down a general point of view as to what it is they’re looking for, and then they explain how it might be what they’re observing a specific player do. Holden has basically argued - Scum need to leave multiple avenues open for executions early in games, because they don’t know how the game is going to develop (and they need flexibility), and so they’re more likely to express wishy washy reads (I’m summarizing rather crudely, but I could quote the posts and I think it’s somewhat fair). Town on the other hand is just trying to figure out who is Town and who is Scum, so they might argue more forcefully for a specific read early in the game (on average, Scum do tunnel, it varies, but you get the gist). What was IV doing? Being wishy washy, expressing significant uncertainty with every read they made, and in fact repeatedly emphasized how they didn’t have any Town Reads or Scum Reads (just Leans). You might disagree with the assumptions or the conclusion, but it’s clear where Holden is coming from. That’s Town indicative to me. I could be wrong in assuming that obviously. So you could question

my

assumption, or highlight inconsistencies, or perhaps argue that there’s a specific agenda behind what Holden is doing or it’s not sufficiently well reasoned. But I didn’t read Holden’s case and think to myself “this is a reach”, or “this seems superficial”. It can be wrong, and it’s not beyond what a solid Scum player can do, but I have to go off of what I have now and I don’t find it Scummy.

On the point about the game state, I don’t know if the point about the game sort of being stagnant was made when AliceK was the leading vote getter - I would have to check. The general point is something I’ve felt in other instances, so I wouldn’t dismiss it out of hand.

I would prefer if you could detail specifically how Holden is pushing out a narrative instead of solving the game. I don’t think you’ve conclusively made that point.

And I don’t know if Gamma has been all that Scummy. Them getting all sensitive about how I’m discussing their contribution to the hydra far more often comes from Town than Scum I feel, so not sure I would agree with that.

I am going to process this a bit.

Your soft defense of Holden reads like a bit of a chainsaw, but I also feel like you deserve a better response and that will take time.

[GeorgeBailey]

Votecount 1.9

AliceK(3)

~ Wright and Justice(263), T3(43), Flea The Magician(50)

Facebones(2)

~ innocentvillager(104), HoldenGolden(69)

Wright and Justice(1)

~ piratemollie(135)


Not Voting (3): Facebones(16), AliceK(8), Andresvmb(29)

With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2021-12-05 18:49:25)

FLAVOR

"..."

[Flea The Magician]

@Mod partial v/la

[Andresvmb]

Thank you for bringing that up. It is sorta strange how quickly everything disipated after IV revealed his hood with me. The wagon which grew and suddenly disappeared on IV consisted of WJ, T3 and GoldenHolden, right?
And now T3 is voting Alice due to POE and agreeing with WJ's read?
It seems a bit sheepy and I'm not sure what to make of it.

Do you think it's possible that IV is scum here?
If IV was town, would scum let them off the hook so quickly after getting them to turn suicidal and being one vote away from hammer?

You might've been asked before, I dunno- what do you think about IV claiming to be in a hood with you? Do you think he was trying to fish for the FN?

I don’t know that I’m thinking of T3 as entirely sheeping W&J here, but I would agree that they’ve pursued similar avenues of inquiry, and at times adopted some of the same reasoning. But this is my memory of it - I would have to re-read the ISO to make sure I’m not just ignoring reality.

Yeah I think it’s entirely possible IV is Scum. I will say, that little tantrum they threw together with the self-vote - IV did that in a game we were in together as Town. But they maintained the self-vote and was actually executed (and I was the one that pushed them really hard initially, arguing they Scum slipped, and then I realized I was wrong and started defending them). Here, they didn’t maintain the vote for that long, though I wasn’t around for it.

The interesting thing about that little joke claim is that I have a hard time seeing when it ever works as a pro-Town tactic. I am mostly dismissing it as NAI right now, since I think it would be a stretch to argue it was an outright fish for the FN.

[GeorgeBailey]

HoldenGolden and InnocentVillager have been prodded

[innocentvillager]

But they maintained the self-vote and was actually executed

that was a year ago and the context is totally different around that

[innocentvillager]

sorry not going to be able to put much into this until tmr probably. ill vote FB or Alice atm of the leading wagons. i can answer any urgent questions if you @ me

[Andresvmb]

Okay I think I have given enough time on this and I’m not getting a response.

I highlighted 701 in the way that I did because in my hood with AliceK, Alice did something very similar to start the conversation. They told me they had a secret to share, and that they were Scum. In response, I indicated that I was fascinated by the reaction test, and would not use it against her if she was using that to see if I was Scum by taking the easy out.

Though the test itself didn’t ping me any which way, I thought it was fascinating that Facebones faced the exact same reaction test in their hood. That’s a bizarre coincidence. It seems almost pre-planned, but I am also thinking that it’s a completely silly way of giving away the Team.

[Andresvmb]

This is why I’m arguing that if AliceK flips Scum, then IV should get executed.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t want to have to out this, or my hood, but I do really feel like it’s just too much of a coincidence and I can’t hide in. Particularly because if AliceK flips and flips Scum, I’m getting NK’ed and this information would die with me.

[Andresvmb]

^hide it*

[Andresvmb]

AliceK should be able to confirm the gist of the conversation, even if they disagree with what I’m arguing obviously.

[Andresvmb]

I’m just thoroughly confused as to what the odds are that two different people in two separate hoods would articulate a similar point to get a reaction of some sort out of the other hood member. Like if they’re both, that’s really absurd.

[Andresvmb]

^both Town*