Newbie 2083: Viae Romanae - End!

[Looker]

Does 89 mean you were born in 89?

[Val89]

You're convoluting logical sentence structure

As you've brought up several times already, my English sucks. Noted. Acknowledged. Are my English skills (or lack thereof) supposed to speak to your alignment somehow? To mine?

You're going to great lengths to avoid that I thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

I have, have I?

Spoiler: Me going to great lengths to avoid that Looker thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

My question is why you thought T3 was town. When I asked,

you said "Process of elimination. It can't be T3 and yeezy/kennyk."

, but that doesn't really answer my question, because it couldn't be both yeezy/kennyk OR fixer, whom you also listed in red in your reads list. Process of elimination means, to me, working out who is town and then limming amongst the remaining null/scumreads. Your PoE seemed to be, as of 677 yeezy/kennk > fixer; but my quation is why was T3 green. Why was he eliminated from that PoE whereas fixer wasn't. That's what I am asking.

If you are trying to tell us

you labeled T3 as town purely because you already had decided yeezys, kennyk and/or fixer were more suspicous

, but had no actual reason to townread him apart from that, then I say again, that's the same as saying "I already had too many scumreads." If you had no reason to townread T3, but no reason to think them scummy either, then that puts them null, but that's not what you did - you gave T3 as your second strongest townread, behind only Mbot.

I think I've been clear what my issue is. You gave T3 as your second strongest townread early on D2, but can give

no other reason why you did other than you suspected other people

. Is that the same reason you were townreading Mbot? Me?

When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3

other than you found other players scummy

I can understand if the 'play style difference' you were talking about is that,

if you have no reasons to scum read someone, but no reason to townread them either, you still call that a townread

, where I would call that null. Fine.

I am fully aware that your answer is that you were townreading T3 because you thought others were more scummy. There you go. Just done so again. Problem is, you already know what my problem is with that answer. You just refuse to address it.

Spoiler: Looker knows what that answer is unsatisfactory, given the list at 677.

Is your issue that I differentiated between you, T3 and MBot? The same way I differentiated between kennyk, yeezys and fixer...?

I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)

Okay, that makes way more sense. At work, so I can't address everything, but regarding the colored list - none of the lines were the same color, not even the red ones with fixer and yeezys. That's the part that confused me, as in why would you harp over the green colors but not the red colors.

Spoiler: I never said that - I didn't call those three "null"

Then you're interpreting incorrectly. I said town, not null.

Instead of even attempting to address why you gave this (677) list, instead of..

Spoiler: I thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

Mbot or T3 or Val

Yezzys or kennyk or Fixer

..which is what you been telling us was the situation. You suspected the bottom 3, so the rest of us were town, as there are no third parties. I'm pretty sure I know the answer as to why you gave the former rather than the more accurate later, and it's because you knew to give that readslist would raise an eyebrow. The read list you gave is recorded in thread. It doesn't match which what you told us when questioned about it. That the readlist misrepresents the actual status of your reads at that point is no longer a point of discussion. It's there in black and white. The remaining issue is to figure out why you gave it like you did. I have conjectured it is because you are scum.

[area="Also, explain how the PoE is opened further" - "So was it a foregone conclusion that T3 was getting eliminated or not?"]PoE was given by two slots at that point, on D2, as as T3 -> Looker. I think it's pretty obvious that prompts the chain of thought that "OK, if perhaps someone other than T3 gets limmed today, maybe I can still survive past D3."

At that point, when you posted your readslist, T3 getting limmed wasn't a "foregone conclusion". Doing anything other townreading T3 at that point would have been bad for your survival.

By the time of the hammer, however, I think it was pretty clear that T3 was going to be the lim with or without your vote and attention was turning to why you were townreading T3. You've been pretty consistant today that you didn't have any reason for townreading T3 apart from 'the playerlist around him', 'process of elimination', or whatever you call it. I would have hammered there as scum too. Yeah, it appears on the surface to be a pretty poor play in that it has drawn my attention; but it looks like you chose the lesser of two evils in the hope that it might be forgotten about overnight.[/area]

Are you deliberately trying to represent my position as the exact opposite as to what it is?

if I need the mason outed so bad, why was I the first one to shut down claiming? Wouldn't I have encouraged it?

Scum!you HAS to get a lim today on Mbot, Kenny or Val,

without that second mason claiming today.

I think this is the final straw that shows you aren't attempting the good faith discusion in an attempt to leave a legacy you tell us you are.

[Val89]

Why is everything I do "exactly" what scum need to win the game?

Well, Occams Razor says it's because you are scum. That's my point. It's one heck of a co-indicence that your reads have changed to match the exact scum path to victory otherwise, no?

You were proven wrong in 761

I was?!?!?! That's news to me.

It makes more sense that a town!Looker, town!fixer elimination sequence wins the game, and that's what it looks like has been set up to take place. If you were any good at your job (assuming you're town), you'd be dead already, and seeing as you appear to be the weaker of the two between yourself and MBot, I have to assume she's the scum.

Your read on fixer has changed now, then? There is literally only one scum remaining. I think Mbot and Kenny are both town. I think they were both spewed as much by Koba D1. I think the possibility that either of those are scum, and they and Koba were running some deliberate WIFOMy distancing plan which involves using the sheeping power Koba openly had to point the FoS at each other is so slim to belong in the realm of tinfoil. I think you are the final scum - I think floatingmay looks good for Koba's partner, and your actions on D2 and the lim you are trying to achieve now makes perfect sense as coming from scum, but not so much from town. Fixer hasn't given a lot to work with, and it worried me for a while, but what he has given hasn't pinged me as scummy, particulary today. It's done the opposite.

Unless anything has changed since they both last posted, I think Mbot and Kenny have both been pretty consistent in that they also think the final scum is in you or fixer. Fixer is voting you. He doesn't appear to be gearing up to jump on the Mbot wagon, either, or try garner support for a wagon elsewhere, as I would expect scum!fixer to do. The fact that, as you say, the most likely lim tomorrow after a town!Looker flip looks like might well be fixer given the public statements by the remaining three slots, and fixer is still ready for a Looker lim makes it look very much to me like we are dealing with a town!fixer who actually beleives you are scum and the game is over with your flip, rather than a scum!fixer angling for a mislim.

I am sorry, but I am not following the argument that me being alive means Mbot is scum in the slightest, even trying to view it through the assumption that you are town.

Does 89 mean you were born in 89?

Yes.

[kennyk]

Sorry, for not posting for so long. Real life hit me, but I am back.

So reading all the new posts and the sometimes confusing discussion between Val89 and looker (at least for me right now), I feel more confident in eliminating looker. One thing I am quite sure about is, that looker is not the second mason. At E-1 and with my statement about voting either him or fixer out the only hope to survive for a mason!looker would have been to claim it. I am not sure if I would have believed it. But it didn't happen. Ergo he is most likely not the mason.

[kennyk]

So I reread some posts and I am now at a point where I would like to cast the final vote of today.

In the now infamous post 677 (couldn't it have been 11 posts before? ) there were three players on lookers positive side (MBot, T3 and Val89) and three on the negative (fixer, yeezyz and I). Yeezyz was NKed. Looker now votes his top read from that list. He hammered his second pick and is in a heavy infight with his third. If I read everything correctly and am not misinterpreting things, the two remaining "baddies" are now at least null reads, but I don't see, how we got this upgrade.

Allthough it might look like I am shutting down a conversation, I will

VOTE: looker

I hope I nailed it.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-5

Sometimes there was no choice but for a consular road to bend or curve due to the terrain. In such cases the roads had to conform to exact spefications. The Law of the Twelve Tables required that straight sections of road had to be at least 8 Roman pes (feet) wide and curved sections were required to be at least twice that wide. The roman pes were equivalent to about .97 Imperial Imperial feet. Why that width? To allow two way traffic. Two carts or chariots could share the road without one having to pull to the side to make way for the other.

Looker

(3): Val89, fixer, kennyk

fixer

(1): MBot

MBot

(1): Looker

Not Voting

(0):

None.

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: December 6, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-12-05 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

An Elimination Has Been Achieved!

[fferyllt]

Looker was a

Vanilla Townie

.

Night 2 begins now and will end in (expired on 2021-12-06 21:00:00)

[fferyllt]

fixer died last night. He was a

Town Mason

.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 4-1

Day 4 Begins!

The most northern reach of the Roman Empire in Continental Europe were the rivers Rhine and Danube. And Roman roads connected those northern reaches to the rest of the Empire. This road is in Romania.

Not Voting

(3): kennyk, MBot, Val89

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to eliminate.

Deadline: December 14, Noon US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2021-12-14 09:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[kennyk]

Just a quick thought on what happened before I start to work.

On our last day I really thought "Wouldn't it be a plot twist, if we elimed looker and fixer is than NKed (or the other way around)? That would leave two really perplexed players and a scum. But after what was posted scum would change the odds in towns favour. So if either Val or MBot is scum, they sure wouldn't do that." But as it seems, one of you did.

A reevaluation will follow after work and after my third vaccination (hopefully this one won't knock me out like the first two).

[Val89]

Well, I for one just can't

wait

to see what is being said about me in the dead thread.

If you want anything productive from me, I am afraid you are going to have to wait awhile - I need to go back and read the whole game again from scratch. I literally have no idea at this point.

[MBot]

Really perplexed is an understatement. That does mean that one of you is the mason so there's that. I can't tell if I'm embarrassed that one of my top town reads is scum or if I'm impressed. I'll try to figure something out when I'm not at work. This should get interesting

[MBot]

Oh shitI read VT on both for some reason. So we're SOL. Right now I'm leaning towards Kenny as scum mainly due to Koba and Val interactions

[Val89]

I hate F3s with a passion. This one, particulary, since I really just don't know and it feels like basically a coin flip.

I did get a sense reading back is that both of you were essentially content with letting me do all the legwork yesterday, and, knowing now I was off-base with Looker, I am feeling decidely uncomfortable about being the useful idiot again today.

We've had two Mason deaths back-to-back, but I'm still scratching my head about that first kill, and can't find an explantion for it which makes sense for either scum. I

still

don't follow whatever Looker was trying to tell us about me being alive pointing to Mbot being scum. I thought, after Lookers flip, and thus confirmation that floatingmay was actually town, that conversation between them and Koba that made me raise an eyebrow seemed to make a bit more sense, but then Koba says in the middle of it, in 316 "Although I do agree on kenny."

Clearly, I ought not to have ruled it out as quickly as I did, but the idea we could have had two competing scum wagons on D1, with both partners cross-voting each other, is an idea that is just completely wild to me, as is the idea that Mbot hammered her scum buddy D1, with about 20 minitues left on the clock, instead of just staying off-line and allowing a no-lim to happen. I'm totally lost, and I know full well anyone meta-ing me in the future is going to point to this game as evidence I have no idea what scum actually does, despite me catching one out the gate. Just fuck this game.

[MBot]

Val, I'm right there with you. My last game I town cleared someone based on confirmed ability use and I was absolutely wrong. The person I WKd for was scum and we lost the game. The issue I'm dealing with now is that if me or the other town vote wrong, the scummybshit head is just going to come in and end the game. Fist bump to the scumbucket who made it this far but seriously F you. Props but damn... after reading the posts again I will bow to Val if he's scum and played that offended at Kobas shinanigans.

[fferyllt]

kennyk has been prodded.

[kennyk]

I am sorry for not posting earlier. But first my granddad unexpectedly had to go to the hospital and some things needed to be dealt with and then the side effects of my vaccination kicked in. The fever is gone, but I am still not feeling too good. So the announced deep investigation still has to wait.

[kennyk]

I hate F3s with a passion. This one, particulary, since I really just don't know and it feels like basically a coin flip.

If only it was a coin flip. Assuming randomness each of the two townies has a 50 % chance to vote scum or town. The chances for both to hit scum is just 25 %. I would clearly prefer a coin flip.

[kennyk]

The worst thing is, that we all had good reasons to read the other two as townies. But one reason I had Val on my townlist is one I didn't mention before, because I didn't want to help scum. I really had Val as the second mason. The reason why is the following post:

Is it usual practise to openly discuss who may or may not be a PR on the other sites you have played on, kenny?

I think if a town PR were to counterclaim in response to Kobes 'softclaims', if that's what they were, that would be somewhat of a own-gaol in that Koba would likely just say "haha, I wasn't claiming mason, just messing around", and we have an outted PR on D1 with a target on their back for what? Does Koba get eliminated anyway? Drawing a CC while still maintaining some doubt about whether Koba was

trying

to do so might well be the motivation for doing that, and you aren't helping.

If that's your only reason for reading Koba town, I would strongly suggest you reconsider.

For me it suggested, that Val knew, that Koba couldn't be a mason, because he himself had a power role. This obviously is not the case, so in my personal provisional ranking he is now in the bottom position. Also, I don't believe in a "scum hammering scum on D1 30 minutes before deadline"-scenario is likely. So right now I am leaning more on a scum!Val89 than a scum!MBot, but I won't vote before a deeper look into things.

[fferyllt]

Val89 has been prodded.

[Val89]

For me it suggested, that Val knew, that Koba couldn't be a mason, because he himself had a power role.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. At the time of post 341, I had no idea what type of game we were dealing with. I think it's fairly obvious my intent with that post was to signal to our PRs that they

shouldn't

claim, since the potential scum motivation for a scum!Koba playing as they were was...well, exactly as I spell out in that post.

Seeing that it turned out we were in a Mason game, and it seems apparent that scum deduced that and took out the masons N2 and N3, I went back to have a look at Andres' ISO to see if they said anything to suggest they could have been a mason partner, and perhaps that would explain that kill. I couldn't find anything to suggest that, but while I was re-reading that ISO, something else came out quite strongly - that Andres was, while pretty strongly arguing for a town!Koba, also the loudest voice in suspecting Kenny.

That completely passed over my head previously because I spent D2 and D3 assuming kenny was town because of the cross-wagon thing I refered to in my previous post, and I was suprised by that kill because

I

found Andres scummy because of the first part. I appear to have made the mistake again of reading events in the game through what

I

know and think. I wouldn't have made that kill in kenny's shoes, because with a Koba scum flip, it's quite possible that Andres would have reconsidered their read on kenny, but the weakness in my game is obviously making the mistake of assuming scum would do or not do something because of how I would play as scum; and perhaps a scum!kenny did think taking out Andres there was the play.

There is no way I am voting there yet, however. I am still uncomfortable that both of the remaining slots hung back somewhat yesterday (although kenny a little moreso than Mbot, to be totally fair) and scum obviously let me run off and do the dirty work for them with looker - I'm not rushing into following my first thoughts and risk repeating that.

I'm going on a little roadtrip this weekend, but I shall return Monday.

@Mod: Please consider me V/LA until then.

[fferyllt]

@Mod: Please consider me V/LA until then.

V/LA acknowledged.

MBot has been prodded.

[MBot]

I was so sure that Kenny was the other mason based on Yeezys interactions and lack if pressure towards them. All I have to go on is Val vs Kenny interactions with Koba. After reading through ISOs I would give scum if the year award to Val if all of that was fake. Kenny's lack of pressure or even interaction with Koba stands out as odd.

VOTE: kenny
Ok lets do it then

Koba held their vote on Kenny without any reasons behind it. Probably in case of vote analyzing later. No reaction or questions from Kenny and the only interactions Koba directly had with Kenny was very superficial.

anyways can we get some activity
floatingmay why do u think kenny is scum

overexplaining in 147; 148 sounds kind of detached (?); 148 and 165 contain math

Post 147 might look a bit overexplained but I have experienced some other games where posts meant to be funny were taken serious. So I thought better safe than sorry and explained it.
Post 148 (you got the wrong post linked there btw.) I don't know what you mean with detached.
Post 165 contains a little math. Math is what got me to playing mafia in the first place (over at greylabyrinth more than 15 years ago). So if using mathematical evidence looks scummy for you I add up 2 and 2 and point a finger of suspicion in your direction.

What are your actual thoughts on the game?

aw man sorry for not posting, i forgot to come on here for a bit but I've caught up with mostly everything right now

i might respond to some previous posts in the next few hours but I'd like to state my reads first! i have a small feeling there's a mafia between Mbot/Koba, although its not very a very strong feeling so it'll definitely change. i'm nullreading may, val, ssbm, and andre atm.

kenny & yeezys strike me as more towny honestly, i don't really get a pure scum vibe from either of them yet. although i get how kenny's over explaining could be counted as scummy, being cautious with their posts and not trying to be painted in a bad light too early on, their math makes sense to me for the most part and i dont really mind it. im leaning more towards town on them. yeezy's activity and consistently wanting reads/discussion wouldn't be scum behavior imo, it could be used to establish a towny presence early on and be more lenient as scum later, i feel like there's others who could be more scummy than these two

why is kenny towny to you?

actually.

VOTE: fixer

I have an idea and im going to explain later.

They switched their vote to Fixer and that was it. Kenny also only voted three times the entire game, one being the RVS and the other two being T3 to E1 and then hammering Looker. Their posts also read extremely careful.

I won't cast a vote just yet but I'm planting my guillotine on Kenny.

[kennyk]

I wanted to start my reacp of this game with something that wasn't subjective and so it was going to be a little vote analysis.

Here are all the votes by the remaining players and DkKoba our only confirmed scummy. I will add the votecount before each vote and a short version of the reason for each vote. Hopefully I didn't miss any vote or didn't mess up with the votecounts. Admittedly I am to lazy to link every post.

Spoiler: Day 1

post 6: DkKoba voted ssbm_Kyouko in the first non-mod post. A random vote.

post 30: I voted floatingmay. A random vote. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), fixer (floatingmay) and MBot (ssbm_Kyouko).

post 32: Val89 voted me. A random vote. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), fixer (floatingmay), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko) and floatingmay (me).

post 55: MBot voted yeezys because of lack of activity (?). Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89) and DkKoba (floatingmay).

post 60: DkKoba voted Val89 for being manipulative. Votecount was 1 vote on ssbm_Kyouko (DkKoba), MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and fixer (floatingmay).

post 65: Val89 voted Koba89 for her reaction to his question. Votecount was 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and Val89 (DkKoba).

post 177: DkKoba voted me. Floatingmay read me as scum the post before and she said "OK lets do it then". Votecount was 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me), me (Val89), yeezys (MBot) and Val89 (DkKoba).

post 209: DkKoba switched to fixer because of an obscure idea never explained. Votecount was 2 votes on me (Val89 and DkKoba), 1 vote on MBot (ssbm_Kyouko), floatingmay (me) and yeezys (MBot).

post 396: I voted DkKoba for the repeated mason softclaim and because of denying doing so. Votecount was 2 votes on Val89 (Andresvmb and T3) and DkKoba (Val89 and floatingmay), 1 vote on fixer (DkKoba), floatingmay (me) and yeezys (MBot).

post 408: DkKoba voted Andresvmb for their unmotivation (?). Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (Val89, floatingmay and me), 1 vote on fixer (DkKoba), Val89 (Andresvmb), yeezys (MBot) and MBot (T3).

post 413: Val89 voted T3 for getting nothing but derision. Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (Val89, floatingmay and me), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), Val89 (Andresvmb), yeezys (MBot) and MBot (T3).

post 427: MBot voted fixer. There was a scumread with no actual example as to why. Votecount was 2 votes on DkKoba (floatingmay and me) and Val89 (Andresvmb and T3), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), yeezys (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 428: Val voted T3 again as kind of a revenge-revenge vote.

post 438: DkKoba voted MBot because her reads didn't feel genuine. Votecount was 2 votes on DkKoba (floatingmay and me) and Val89 (Andresvmb and T3), 1 vote on Andresvmb (DkKoba), fixer (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 523: Val89 voted DkKoba because of her anti-town playstyle. Votecount was 3 votes on MBot (DkKoba, Andresvmb and T3), 2 votes on DkKoba (me and yeezys), 1 vote on Andresvmb (Looker), fixer (MBot) and T3 (Val89).

post 565: DkKoba voted me. After five posts of talking agrressively to and about others the reason was „yeah fuck it“. Votecount was 3 votes on DkKoba (me, yeezys and Val89), 2 votes on MBot (DkKoba and Andresvmb) and 1 vote on Andresvmb (Looker), fixer (MBot) and me (T3).

post 629: MBot hammered DkKoba for anti-town feelings. Votecount was 4 votes on DkKoba (me, yeezys, Val89 and T3), 3 votes on me (DkKoba, Looker, Andresvmb) and 1 vote on fixer (MBot).

Spoiler: Day 2

post 658: Val89 voted T3. Reasoning had to do with how scum!Koba plays and the way this effected the game and the way T3 argumented (I don't know how to describe in short. Read it for yourself). Votecount was 1 vote on yeezys (Looker) and on fixer (T3).

post 708: I voted T3 for contradictions in his posts. Votecount was 2 votes on T3 (Val89 and yeezys) and 1 vote on yeezys (Looker).

no vote from MBot on day 2.

Spoiler: Day 3

post 744: Val89 voted Looker because his questions were answered with evasion and rude pushbacks. First vote D3.

post 767: MBot voted fixer. She read Val and me as town but did not want to put Looker at E-1. Votecount was 1 vote on Looker (Val89).

post 804: I hammered Looker because I was (wrongly) believing in our "town triangle". Votecount was 2 votes on Looker (Val89 and fixer) and 1 vote on fixer (MBot)

[kennyk]

So with the raw data from my last post, one can very well see, that I didn't just vote three times. I voted four times. The same amount of votes you cast, MBot. You missed my vote on Koba. As you can see, it was the third vote on her at that time and it stayed there until you hammered.

Koba on the other hand casted her vote around on nearly everyone (all except yeezys and floatingmay/Looker).

And by the way, there was more posts between Koba and me apart from those you quoted. You totally missed out those who led to my vote on Koba.

I have to ask you this: are you deliberately trying to shade me here in order to convince Val89 to vote me?