Newbie 2083: Viae Romanae - End!

[Val89]

Alright, I'm here.

Let's have a nice clean game, shall we?

VOTE: kennyk

[Val89]

Why kennyk?

No reason. I usually justify my first vote with a wall of inane bullshit, but I've come to realise the reason you don't see anyone else taking that approach is that you get really get much more out of it than the one-liner everyone else tends to open with for the effort I have to put in coming up with said wall.

I figured if people wanted to make something of it, and spend time discussing that, that's one way to kick off the game at least.

[Val89]

My playstyle is often marked by forcing people into situations where its unreasonable to fos me

I would be interested in hearing more about what you mean by this, and how it links to the previous.

Are you talking about your scumgame, here?

[Val89]

i mean my initial read wasn't based on any sort of logic so

VOTE: fixer

Is this one supposed to be based on some sort of logic?

[Val89]

I'm not even going to really honor you with a reply here because wow this is manipulative (in the bad way) as hell. VOTE: val

see here newbies, this is what we call, bad faith! When a player intentionally frames someone as bad with no intentions to consider good intentions from that person.

I was asking a question. I thought I might be misunderstanding what you were saying, because if I assume you meant "forcing people into situations where its unreasonable to fos [you]" is how you play as town, that would appear to just be saying "I play as townie as possible, so people come off bad when they sus me", which isn't really saying anything at all is it?

I was hoping you might clarify. I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion I was intentionally framing you as bad for attempting to clear up a misunderstanding I think I might be holding myself.

I am wondering now, however. Defensive, much??

[Val89]

Regardless i disgress - did that response change how you feel?

Following on from that, why is it so important to you how other slots feel about you this early?

In before I am accused of OMGUS, but I certainly wasn't expecting a reaction like that to an innoculous question. I think this is a good a place to start as any.

VOTE: DkKoba

[Val89]

tf is this
"are you talking about your scumgame, ehre"????? we are literally in the rvs stage why are you throwing around accusations when someone is just talking about their meta ???
sorry this is jsut. what ?????? what??????

Except I think it's pretty self-evident I wasn't throwing around any sort of accusation.

As I pointed out a single post ago, the statement doesn't make a lot of sense if DkKoba was talking about their town game, so I was seeking clarification as to if they were talking about their scum game, and if so, how exactly one goes about forcing people into situations where its unreasonable to FoS you. I wasn't (at that time) suggesting this was a DkKoba scumgame, but the reaction (from two slots now) seems so widely over the top I am wondering.

It is, in fact, so self-evident, that combined with the obvious hyperbole and gratuitous overuse of question marks, alongside the reminder that scum don't want to draw attention to themselves and thus THAT ISN'T ALIGNMENT INDICATIVE, I think it's quite possible that one or both of these slots are seeking some sort of "too scummy to be scum" townread.

No chance, not from me at least. Two decent scumleams, right there.

[Val89]

Hmmm.

I'm just getting started and already that's two slot saying they won't even respond to me.

I know this is a newbie queue, but I think you owe us a little bit more respect then that, else Im not sure what else you expect us to do than infer you have something to hide here.

[Val89]

like i'm sorry but koba's post was not even remotely scummy idk what you're on about

I never suggested it was. I asked a question to clarify what Koba was trying to tell us.

The fact that you've jumped immediately into assuming I was scumreading Koba because the post contained the word scum clearly indicates you are hypersensitive to criticism towards that slot on page 4.

Is Koba your partner, or are you hoping to buddy up there and pick up that "too scummy to be scum" townread on the way?

[Val89]

yeezys is my top townread atm

See what I mean?

Koba knows full well we are going to say to ourselves "hang on, why the hell are they townreading that slot after that display?“.

They are hoping you think they can't be scum because a mafia player would never draw attention to themselves by doing something quite so rediculous.

I'm not fooled by it, and you shouldn't be either.

[Val89]

val trying to deny the shade they threw at me and implication they had in their post is just like NAGL here

See, that's the thing - there was no shade when I asked (although there certainly is now!) and you two reading shade when obviously wasn't is exactly what is pinging my scumdar so hard right now.

[Val89]

sorry but what ??? what koba did is NAI why do you think it's AI

I didn't consider it AI at the time, and I've said as much several times now, and your continued attempt to misrepresenting me as doing so is noted.

I'm not sure what you are both expecting to gain by this given that the exchange is recording in black and white for prosperity. Other slots can read what took place and see the over reaction you had to it.

[Val89]

Exactly.

I think you must have somehow picked up a false impression of me somewhere if you think you can openly misrepresent me and expect it to go without being called out.

Folks, the fact that Koba has quoted that post tells you they have read it.

Come join me on this wagon and let's see what other over the top reactions we get.

[Val89]

you voted koba why do you think i was scumreading you

The record will show I voted Koba AFTER the reaction they had - the same one you did, which was to read shade where there clearly is none.

I think the fact you are trying to change the timeline here and suggest I voted for Koba before that reaction shows quite clearly you know you are in hot water here and can't get out of it without resorting to misrepresentation, so no, I won't be shutting up, as much as I know you would like that.

Both of you trying to browbeat me and shut me down is itself as scummy as fuck. I understand you don't want attention drawn to what you are trying to do here, but hey, if you think I have a scum motivation for doing so, wouldn't you prefer I keep talking and show myself to be scum?

[Val89]

I don't really think I need to "set up shade" when you are doing a perfectly good job yourself.

I'm scumreading you for the reaction you had; I haven't actually had the chance to determine if what you said there was alignment indicative or not, since I note that you never actually answered the question in order to enable me to understand what you were trying to say about your own meta.

How does one force situations where its unreasonable for people to FoS you?

Are you going to continue attempting to dodge question, or are we going to get a straight answer?

[Val89]

browbeating is a chat mafia playstyle that is not alignment indicative. it is just an aggressive style we utilize to hard pressure people into alignment telling and not wriggling out

Yeah, no. You don't get to wiggle out of it by saying 'I tried to shut down you pointing out what a strange reaction I had as a reaction test! I'm town, really!"

That won't wash one bit.

[Val89]

Anyone care to count the number of times these two slots have thrown the word 'manipulative' around without backing it up one iota, or is that supposed to be another "chat mafia" technique that help you scum hunt somehow?

[Val89]

I'm not sure what to tell you. I realise that you've all obviously have some history together, on other sites if not this one, and clearly some slots are banking their game on that in a big way. I wasn't expecting it to actually work though.

Just look at the reaction these two slots have had to me asking a clarifying question that clearly had no shade implied. How is this NOT scummy as hell?

Nether do we still have an answer to the question I asked, despite asking twice now. I think that's pretty telling.

Apparently Koba was trying to tell us something about their self-meta. It's something that I don't understand, but I don't think my lack of understanding as to what it was trying to express makes any difference to the fact the reaction was extremely scummy.

If the 'self-meta' declaration had been something simple I could understand, like "I always townread my partners", I wouldn't have needed to clarify the slot saying so was talking about their scumgame, but if I did, because I suppose it's possible they were talking about Mason partners, and that slot suddenly started screaming 'how DARE you shade me and try to paint me in a bad light, MANIPULATION!", I would be still be saying that's an over the top defensive reaction.

If Koba is going to continue to dodge the question, perhaps someone else can explain to me in a general sense how it would be possible to force situations in which it is unreasonable to point the FoS at someone?

Given the lengths that Koba is going to to not only dodge the question, but paint me as scum for merely asking, it would not suprise me if it turns out there was something alignment indicative in it after all.

[Val89]

I've had some IRL stuff come up. I am hoping you will all forgive me if I catch up tomorrow.

[Val89]

I will be around to catch up properly in a few hours, but I want to say this for now based on what I've read has been happening last day or two:

I still think Koba is scum, and I've no idea why yeezys is getting the townreads they are. Clearly they aren't 'obvtown' at all, and I think we need some justification from those purporting that they are.

[Val89]

ftr yeezys i townread koba and if i have time later i'll make a proper post but i don't think it's worth the effort right now given that the only person currently scumreading them is mbot

Just want to point out that isn't true.

I

am scumreading both Koba and yeezys - Koba for the over-the-top defensive reaction for me asking for a clarification of their 50, and the continued dodging of actually addressing that question; I think it's important to note that it's a question being asked by two slots now, and we still don't have an answer. I am starting to wonder if we are actually seeing a demonstration of that in action right now; browbeat and patronise, and plead rediculious hyperbolic scumcases immeadately against anyone who even dares ask a question and perhaps other slots will see that and think twice about engaging with their slot, and they can slip through the game without their alignment being seriously tested. Reading between the lines of floatingmay's and Kobas exchange starting just prior, starting at 47, it appears that perhaps Koba has form for that, if that is what was being discussed there. At the end of the day, if I have to put up with that sort of behaviour and be the sacraficial lamb to make sure attention remains on that slot so it does get sorted properly, then so be it. Not the sort of game I think anyone enjoys playing, but neither do I think that sort of thing should be allowed to fly.

Keep in mind secondly, although I might not be the most experianced player in this list by a long shot, I don't really consider myself to be a totally fresh newbie, and I am not, in any way, seeing how yeezys is obvtown in the slighest; and "no i dont want to explain yeezys because i want to save the explaination in my back pocket in case anyone tries to push them" reads as just a tiny bit convenient. Is there an explanation, or no, because I am telling now, it is NOT obvious that they are town, and trying to suggest they are without any explanation is pinging me.

*pat pat* its ok val we'll win without your help

Thirdly, this is the third time I've had an SE slot act in an openly condecending and patronising way towards me. On both other occasions (first, second), I found it scummy, as an attempt to discredit a player with less experiance in the eyes of other players, and in both occasions it worked, because my read was written off as just saltiness at being subject to that, and - most importantly - both times the slot doing so WAS scum. Until I have reason to suspect otherwise, I am going to say this sort of thing is alignment-indicative in this case too.

[Val89]

And maybe, if you think my read on you is bad; if you stopped demonstrating the behavior that has clearly been scum-indicative in my previous games and actually answered my question instead of trying to treat me like an idiot, maybe I would realise it was bad.

I've been on the right side of history on all those occasions. If I have to put up with this shit until one of us gets flipped, and if nessacary watch your hubris be your downfall from the dead thread, then so be it.

Why is yeezys obvtown, or did you just pull that read from your arse?

[Val89]

Here is the other thing, though - Koba was calling yeezys their "top town read" by post 94.

Have a look at yeezys' ISO at that point, and see if there is

anything

that might indicate to you they were deserving of any sort of townread, there. I think if I was yeezys there, even I would be thinking to myself "hang on, what's going on here then?", but it goes without comment. Kyouku does the same, without explaining why, at 144.

Am I missing something obvious, here, because I realise that all 3 can't be scum, but I don't understand where this is coming from. All I see is yeezys having a NAI discussion about playing on other sites and jumping in on the over-the-top defense of Koba's 60; which is pinging me as scummy, not townie.

[Val89]

Why? This isn't helping much.

You obviously think I am an idiot, so treat me like one. Spell it out, please.

[Val89]

Is it usual practise to openly discuss who may or may not be a PR on the other sites you have played on, kenny?

I think if a town PR were to counterclaim in response to Kobes 'softclaims', if that's what they were, that would be somewhat of a own-gaol in that Koba would likely just say "haha, I wasn't claiming mason, just messing around", and we have an outted PR on D1 with a target on their back for what? Does Koba get eliminated anyway? Drawing a CC while still maintaining some doubt about whether Koba was

trying

to do so might well be the motivation for doing that, and you aren't helping.

If that's your only reason for reading Koba town, I would strongly suggest you reconsider.

[Val89]

I don't know what that means, and it doesn't look like it's on the wiki, either.

Care to explain?

[Val89]

Are we talking about ongoing games, here? You know full well I can't respond to that.

[Val89]

What 'accusations' am I supposed to be responding to, Koba?

All I see are more of the same unjustified X is obvtown, Y is scum stuff flying around.

Still no proper answers to our questions, I note. I signed up to play a social-deduction game, not this popularly-contest mindreading thing you all seem to want it to be.

[Val89]

Is Val tstbs

No, T3, you are the one whose gameplan always seems to resolve around picking up that sort of townread.

I would actually

like

to play the game and give some well-reasoned reads, pick apart the logic other slots have given for thiers reads on other slots, including my own, and see if it holds up, and you know - solve the game, rather than just townread people we know or randomly guess; but very few people are even bothering, and not only is it going without censure, but some appear to be getting townread for it.

This sort of "lol. I fake claimed mason, but did I? Yes I did, I tried to screw town but I always do, so you can't scumread me for it, nah nah! Actually no I didn't lmao."; and the "X is town because I say so", and all the rest of it, it's just not a game I'm interesting in playing. If are alledging with that stuff above that my WIM is less than usual here, well, frankly, you are right. I am struggling to give a shit about the sort of game people seem to want to play here. Use it to scumread me if you must.

[Val89]

You are doing this on purpose to piss me off, right?

[Val89]

How are we supposed to evaulate if any of the progression here is genuine if this is all we get?

Look, I'm sat here

poised

to try and play this game, and I'm getting nothing but derision.

If you all reckon this is the way to play a mafia game, then fine, whatever, I'll give it a go, but I guarentee this is going to get us nowhere.

Andres is locktown because vibes.

VOTE: T3

[Val89]

explain your votes? please?

lulwut?

U want vote explaining? MANIPULATION. Get on this lockscum.

Lol, nah, Im jking. But am I?

[Val89]

are u just always mad lol

maybe lol

like, at some point, people are going to realise how rediculous this is, or I'm going to get run up for it and I won't have to play a game that holds no interest for me, and you can get on with it with me spoiling your memery.

[Val89]

How are we supposed to evaulate if any of the progression here is genuine if this is all we get?

Look, I'm sat here

poised

to try and play this game, and I'm getting nothing but derision.

If you all reckon this is the way to play a mafia game, then fine, whatever, I'll give it a go, but I guarentee this is going to get us nowhere.

Andres is locktown because vibes.

VOTE: T3

VOTE: val

VOTE: T3

[Val89]

Is this really how you think a mafia game should be played? Maybe it's all fun and games for a little while, but we are barely 36 hours away from deadline at this point and to my mind realisitically nobody can be happy with this game state, unless you are scum.

When I saw MBots' post, I was hoping we might finally have something to work with, but on closer reading there is barely anything of substance there, and frankly, who can blame her? I'm in much the same position.

I thought that maybe I might make some progress if I could figure out who is driving this, and who is simply following along, but to be fair, I think scum would be more than happy to join along if its town in the driving seat, or else just sit back and watch; so we have - literally nothing.

Thanks for that. You know who I am refering to. If you aren't sitting on red role PMs, and I think one or both you have to be at this point to let it go on this far, then you might as well have been.

[Val89]

Ha! I know my post looks lazy af but I really didn't have much to work with for examples

Exactly my point. Any other game, I would be looking at that and wondering why everything was so shallow, but the big realisation is that that's about as good as you could possibly have come up with.

I'm not sure whether scum are engineering this situation, or just taking advantage of it, but it seems like the best place to start to me.

Neither T3, Koba nor Yeezys are 'obvtown' and I'm not going to be convinced they are town while they form a little triangle and try and hand wave wlthe reads away with 'it's obvious'.

[Val89]

val says 'Andres is lockdown by vibes' reads as completely bullshit considering he's made literally 11 posts, all of which are one-liners which don't even contribute to the discussion

Wow, T3, what an insightful and useful post!

Of course it's completely bullshit, much like the rest of the reads that have been given in the same manner, like yours. That was the entire point I was making.

[Val89]

Wow, T3, what an insightful and useful post!

Well, that was sarcasm.

[Val89]

I don't know if Koba is labouring under the miscomprehension that they might placate me with a townread, but I want to be clear that you wont, Koba, particulary while you are trying to push Mbot for reads that are "not thought out", ie shallow, in game where shallow is all that is possible due to a situation of your making.

I've done what I can to illustrate the stupidity of playing this way, and I'm bored of it already.

My vote is on T3, largely because the last time we met in a newbie game, he essenitially promised he wouldn't play like a total twat in a newbie game again. His 'offense' that game was to seriously fake claim mason as town (oh the fucking irony!) and here he is again playing the Jester. I understand that Koba is the lead instinigator of this, and T3 has repped in to a slot after Koba was already fake claiming mason, but even after post 350, which smelt to me a little of PR-fishing, he (T3) is still allowing yeezys and kennyk to continue speculate on the matter. He promised post-game he wouldn't do it again as town, and while I've really no idea as to the worth of his word on such matters, I am working from the assumption he would stick to his word there, and is playing the way he is playing now because he is scum.

Given nobody else seems to give a shit, I was planning to move my vote back to Koba and consolidate there before the annoucement of the deadline pause. Given they aren't going to be around, however, there doesn't seem much point doing so now but I want to make it clear I am happy to consolidate there if nessacary.

[Val89]

you are in the minority here

Yes, I realise that, and that's what is frustrating me so much about this game.

I've only played on MS, but I've not been in a game like this before, with the exception of having a jestery player or two (usually you) that we play around, not having near the entire field play this way. Obviously this is how mafia is played elsewhere, and you've all found your way here and I've accidently slipped in somewhere I'm not welcome; but I can't play like this, I just can't. You can call it a me problem, but it's a problem.

I can only refer you to my 422. Clearly nothing is going to change here.

[Val89]

what yeezys is doing is hardly speculating on masonry

koba, i dont know whats going on between you and noah but i dont fucking like it.
...
either youre
a) mason partners with t3

You can tell me the sky is green all you like. There are *4* lights.

[Val89]

I am not seeing MBot here. Complaints are being made about "not explaining reads organically" but, as far as I can see, those reads are explained as well as can be given how his game is being played, and, while I realise I am in the minority in this particular game, it appears to be a result largely of your examples, Koba and T3. I also note that, having been more than happy to riff off yeezys playing this memey 'I'm not explaining jack' sort of game, you, Koba, now want to insist he bucks it up and starts explaining the second it is turned on you.

I can't help but feel scum are more than content with the way this game is going, and to criticise one of the few slots trying to get things moving doesn't look all that great.

I was hoping Looker coming with would be the impetus this game needs to get rolling. Can you explain what you thing you are seeing in those posts you have quoted? Maybe things will get moving this way.

[Val89]

I'm still not sure which of the two between T3 and Koba I think are more likely to flip scum, if it's not both.

I read "I can refute that as NAI at best" (whatever that is, I take it to mean the anti-town playstyle) as a dog whistle for 'I play like a troll in all my games, so it's easy to get away with as scum', which I feel also kinda describes T3 too, to some degree - except I've seen him promise not to play in such a manner recently, and I've no handle on Koba in that vein. That's the only real tie break I have given they appear to be tying their fates together hard and I'm not convinced a scumteam would do so so publicly and so early - it's more likely I feel there is one scum in the pair.

That said, it looks like I have a better chance of actually forcing Koba to give us something with which we can actually try and sort them if I switch back there. My vanity vote on T3 doesn't appear to be achieving much with not a whole lot of time left.

VOTE: DkKoba

[Val89]

what is your read on mbot?

I think actually making the effort to at least try and come up with a readlist and get some discussion going in a game where I think it's fairly obvious scum would be content to let things proceed as they are reads townie. I was also struck by the fact that, in any other game, those reads would seem rather shallow; but I having challenged myself to do a better job, I find I simply can't, and they are getting town points from me for making the attempt.

i literally fucking explained my read on yeezys and its the most explained read in the whole game

You did?

yeezys is fucking blatant town lmfao

i dont think an explaination is needed

you are experienced enough - read the game and figure it out. their energy literally *oozes* town

like yeezys literally pulled up to this game and said "AYO FUCKERS IMMA SOLVE THIS SHIT WATCH THIS"

like thats what i feel when i read yeezys' posts and i would trust them with my life

It is a sad indictment of the state of this game if THAT is "the most explained read in the whole game", and it had to be teased out of you like blood from a stone.

I have some more to say, but I am afraid it will have to wait for a few hours.

[Val89]

That VC doesn't look right. Looker replaced floatingmay, and they have voted elsewhere since.

I think Koba

should

be at E-1 here, but they ain't just yet.

[Val89]

It would be helpful if you gave us some reason to trust you, T3. Throwing reads and votes around on nothing but "I'm right cos reasons" gives me nothing on which to evaluate your genuiness here. That goes doubly so when you are defending a slot doing THAT, right there ^.

Someone is looking to double down on that "too ballsy to be scum" read they picked up from MBot while simulatanously screwing town over in plain sight of everyone, and it's

painfully

obvious from posts like 544.

[Val89]

Mbot, I've come out to defend you against the charge that your reads are shallow, because I thought the slots making that argument were doing so from a scummy place, given they were largely responsible for the low-info state in which those reads were made, and the fact I thought making an attempt to do so anyway come off townie.

I do have to ask myself now, however, with 21 hours to go; what the hell are you doing voting

fixer

here?

[Val89]

So let me get this straight Koba: You said your read on kyouko (now T3) is the most and best explained read in this whole game.

That's not quite right, kenny.

i literally fucking explained my read on yeezys and its the most explained read in the whole game

I do agree with the sentiment - the explaination of the read on yeezys was pretty underwhelming, but at Koba has been clear that their T3 read is based on the fact they have a good record reading the previous occupant of the slot via 'vibes', and are leaning on that despite the replacement. I also think that's not particulary satisifying either; it might do for Koba, but to expect the rest of us to take that at face value?

Let's not get the two mixed up, though, because they are two different issues.

[Val89]

val if you're actually reconsidering like it seems like youre doing then try voting with me (:

I admit I might be second guessing myself here with that deadline looming, but given how scummy I've found your play so far, you are going to have to give me something to work with.

"yeah fuck it" just isn't going to cut it here, and you should know that.

[Val89]

Have your thoughts on the kenny wagon changed any since 499, MBot?

I didn't realise how close we find ourselves to deadline yet again until the last vote count, and your vote stood out on it, given that fixer is on V/LA and has been for the last couple of days.

It looks to me like the deadline will expire before the prod-timer does if Andres doesn't respond, so I have to direct the same question to Looker, too. Those votes aren't doing anything right now, and I don't want to sleepwalk into a nolim through apathy. I can't guarentee I will be around much after this evening, and if we are going to look elsewhere, then we are going to need to see something convincing to justify doing so, and soon.

I for one aren't comfortable limming Andres on the basis of what has been presented so far without them having had a chance to respond. It sucks they have absented themselves at such a moment, but that's where I am.

[Val89]

T3 still trying desperately for that 'too scummy to be scum' townread, I see.

If you are the last scum and your intent is to just speedrun this game, then by all means carry on; but if you are town here, can you not just stop and reflect on what you saw happen D1 with Koba, maybe?

[Val89]

Also when scum koba has a read on a scum partner, they will tend to argue the town out of voting their scum partner instead of just townreading them.

Also when scum koba has a read on a scum partner, they will tend to argue the town out of voting their scum partner instead of just townreading them.

I see. T3 knows exactly how scum!Koba plays, and that play just happens to fit how they acted towards my slot. He is so intimately familar with how scum!Koba plays, in fact, that they locktowned them D1. Makes sense.

Well, at least this game is going to be over pretty quickly.

VOTE: T3

[Val89]

Of course they killed Andresvmb after this

What do you mean?

lmaooooo ( pretend I voted and it didn't hammer

I thought you were trying to imply T3 was at E-1 for a moment with that comment, but there are only 2 votes there, no?

I understand you were V/LA the majority of D1, but I am a little uncomfortable settling on a lim today without having at least a half-decent read on you. How do you feel about the rest of slots?

[Val89]

Well Andresvmb wouldn't likley have been my first choice to look at today, but he certainly would have been in the PoE; so granted, it is a little odd.

I still get a whiff of PR fishing from some parts of those kennyk posts, but I'm not seeing how, with half the field almost falling over each other to openly sheep Koba reads, they then decide to point those sheep towards their partner rather than at least attempt a mislim, so I'm taking kennyk out of my PoE at this point, along with MBot.

[Val89]

What does that spoiler tag mean, Looker?

[Val89]

Sorry, I should have been more clear Looker - I know what WIFOM is, it was the "pending a mislim" part of it I wasn't sure about. Who are you telling us you think is at risk of mislim here? Yourself? T3?

If T3, why are you townreading there?

[Val89]

Sorry, I should have been more clear Looker - I know what WIFOM is, it was the "pending a mislim" part of it I wasn't sure about. Who are you telling us you think is at risk of mislim here? Yourself? T3?

If T3, why are you townreading there?

Process of elimination. It can't be T3 and yeezy/kennyk.

I am confused about what happpened at the end of the day here, Looker. I admit I was expecting the game to be over with T3's flip, and thus didn't pay too much attention elsewhere, but I don't see how this one follows. I have to ask the question again; who was mislim were you warning us about, if that is what you were doing, in the spoiler tag of 977?

Why were you townreading T3 at 677, and why did you change your mind and subsquently hammer? It appears from the above you were trying to say you were townreading T3 because there was only one scum remaining, and it couldn't be T3 AND yeezys/kennyk; but the same applies to fixer as well, and you gave them a red label in your readslist. I'm hoping you can explain the progression there, because I don't see it.

On the subject of fixer, are you suggesting fixer's lack of votes is scum-indicative? I recall he was V/LA for the vast majority of D1.

As far as the mason partner goes, I have two things to say - firstly, I am not sure an explict VT claim was warrented there, MBot, but I can't see how it is alignment-indicative in any way, and secondly; Kenny seems to have pretty much hit the nail on the head as far as the merits of the second mason claiming today - doing so today is almost certainly a death sentence; although scum will simply not be able to CC today - if a scum CCs today, there is time enough to flip both claims since we got a scum D1. If we mislim today, however, there is no reason scum wouldn't claim to be the partner in an F3; and it'll be upto to the remaining VT to evalaute two competing mason claims with only one shot to get it right.

[Val89]

You answered your own first question

I'm not sure you (I?) did. Could you point out where?

and referenced my answer to your second: I thought T3 was town but I also thought Andres was scum, and it didn't look like the wagon was going to shift before the holiday. I relied on majority judgement and it didn't pan out.

My question is

why

you thought T3 was town. When I asked, you said "Process of elimination. It can't be T3 and yeezy/kennyk.", but that doesn't really answer my question, because it couldn't be both yeezy/kennyk OR fixer, whom you also listed in red in your reads list. Process of elimination means, to me, working out who is town and then limming amongst the remaining null/scumreads. Your PoE seemed to be, as of 677 yeezy/kennk > fixer; but my quation is

why was T3 green

. Why was he eliminated from that PoE whereas fixer wasn't. That's what I am asking.

It's important to me, because I'm not following the progression there. We are talking about your D2 read list, not D1, so I don't see what Andres has to do with it. I'm asking you about this, again, because it looks to me like you put T3s name in green but can't actually tell us why you were townreading there because you don't have a good reason for doing so - I don't think there was a single other player left here who was townreading T3, but I'll stand corrected if I am misremembering, but I am surmising you thought it would draw suspicion to have 4 names in reds, and so you (unjustifiably) listed T3 green.

If I am wrong about that, and you had good reasons to actually townread T3 yesterday you haven't shared, you better tell me now; alongside an explanation as to what caused you to change your mind and when, because you being evasive about it over two days to the point I have to explicitly state my exact suspicions is pinging me in a big way.

[Val89]

@Val: I'm sorry you're not better at asking questions

I would say I'm sorry you aren't better at answering them, but I'm not, because you might have slipped under the radar a bit more if you were.

T3 wasn't likely to be scum because I already had my suspicions and he wasn't one of the players I was suspicious of. Again, it's impossible to prove a player is town without mechanical confirmation, so trying to force me to prove T3 was town without that is impossible and comes off as a setup.

I'm not not asking to "prove" T3 was town, and clearly there is no need to, as we can all see he was town, so I'm not even sure what this attempt at misrepresentation even is. I'm asking why you felt T3 warranted a green townread at the time you posted your D2 read list, and given he must have done something to change your mind because you hammered him; can you explain what it was that caused to lean the other way for you eventually?

Again; your answer as it stands still reads very much like 'T3 is green in 667 because already had 3 scumreads', which doesn't seem town-indicative to me; the unspoken part of that is 'I was worried I would be scumread for not having enough townreads if I gave a fourth', and that's not something I think town worries about. It just so happens that 3 mislims is exactly what scum!you needs to achieve to win following a D1 scumflip, after all.

The "you better tell me now" requires an eye roll and this entire push is weird coming from you of all people.

Well, exactly as what happened with Koba D1, I was asking questions to clarify an aspect of your gameplay that could have scum motiviation to see if there is a something I've overlooked, and if it could be coming from town instead. When instead what I get is evasion, implications that I am an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously, and/or OMGUSy pushback, that's when it becomes a vote.

Why me "of all people"?

VOTE: Looker

[Val89]

your town is a lazy bunch of sacks

DkKoba (4)

: kennyk, yeezys, Val89, T3

kennyk (2)

: DkKoba, Looker

fixer (1)

: MBot

MBot (1)

: Andresvmb

Not Voting (1)

: fixer
With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

also reminder that you were on the kenny wagon oh em gee.....

Now that you mention it, as well as jumping on the kennyk wagon as soon as T3 switches to Koba; "Your town" is an interesting choice to phrase to use there that I didn't notice the first time around. Persepctive slip?

[Val89]

You of all people because you voteparked DkKoba then jumped off when [their] wagon started to gain traction, only to make sure you were in the exact middle of [their] wagon when it went through

That's some gaslighting right there - I had to go back and look at my own voting pattern D1 through fresh eyes to see if that description, as uncharitable as it is, could ever reasonably describe it. It doesn't. What's going on here? Are you confusing me with someone else? Are you trying to suggest I am scum who worked as hard as I could to get my partner limmed D1? In any case, why would my voting pattern on D1 change how I viewed how suspicious or otherwise I would find your progression on a slot on D2?

And you're reiterating yourself by quoting my answer and then asking the same question again, seemingly injecting spin.

I am repeating myself because I still don't have an answer. There is no spin here. It's exactly what happened with Koba - I had a slight suspicion about something said or done, asked a sensible question about it, and instead of an answer, got shade and evasion in return. I'll ask again, because the more times I have to keep asking without getting an answer, the more I think you don't have one.

If I am misconstruing your answer, and the reason you listed T3 as town in 677 is

not

because you already had 3 scumreads; why were you townreading T3 at that point? What had changed by the end of the day that you you were prepared to hammer a townread of yours, and to do so even without a claim? I think those are sensible and reasonable questions to ask, no?

"Implications of idiocy" is inaccurate appeal to emotion

The "you better tell me now" requires an eye roll and this entire push is weird coming from you of all people.

Are you ESL?

Yeah. OK.

You're either voting out of spite or opportunism, but it's not going to end well for town.

Spite for what? I do see an oppotunity to vote a slot I think is most likely flipping scum here, and by a good margin. The only other slot I am concerned about at this point is fixer, and that's largely because they were absent enough that I don't really enough to have a handle on his alignment - but none what I have seen hasn't really pinged me as scummy; null, rather than scum, whereas Looker has pinged me as scummy and I think our interactions today are a clear indications as to why. I make no appologies for starting with a scummy slot over a null one.

I'm eliminating Mbot and Kenny from my PoE completely. I'll tell you this for free - if I ever get to the stage that my mere appearence in a game is enough to have other players call me 'obvtown', openly sheeping my reads, and even having other slots telling people it would be better to mislim a town PR than me, and that other players opinion matters less and everyone would be a better player if they just stopped thinking for themselves and followed what I was doing, as Andres did twice; all while being as openly scummy as Koba was D1, I abolsutely fucking guarentee you I would not use that power to point the finger at my own partner, under any circumstances.

I fail to see how any sensible player would, and while I don't understand how Koba got to that point, I really don't think it was by throwing games and playing against their win condition. I think I would have to see examples of where Koba did such a anti-wincon thing previously before I could even consider the possiblity that we are looking at kennyk or Mbot. Scum there doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm also curious as to why I would NK Andres, the only other person on the kennyk wagon, instead of killing someone on the DkKoba wagon and leaving doubt/mystery between myself and Andres, especially if I'd been suspecting him already. It just doesn't make sense.

No, it doesn't, this one I give you. Andres is someone I would have looked at for Koba's partner if he were still alive. The problem is, I don't think it makes sense coming from ANY partner, so it doesn't really stand to help convict or clear anyone, and perhaps that was the point. I don't agree with MBot that his final statement made him look town, but if others would have given him towncred for it, perhaps there is some truth there. Certainly I would buy that explaination before I brought that the NKs were calculated specifically to troll you, or whatever you were trying to tell us in your first post of the day.

[Val89]

One of us has fucked up the timeline here, Looker, and I'm pretty sure it's not me. Koba was the D1 flip. Andres was the N1 NK.

You townread Mbot, T3 and me (in that order); and scumread fixer and (yeezys or kennyk) in a spoiler labeled "At the risk of WIFOM pending a miselim" ([/post]677[/post]).

Those reads were given when Andres was dead. It was not "your first post of the game when scum hadn't flipped". It was early on D2, post Koba and Andres flips. If you are trying to tell us you labeled T3 as town purely because you already had decided yeezys, kennyk and/or fixer were more suspicous, but had no actual reason to townread him apart from that, then I say again, that's the same as saying "I already had too many scumreads." If you had no reason to townread T3, but no reason to think them scummy either, then that puts them null, but that's not what you did - you gave T3 as your second strongest townread, behind only Mbot.

From my point of view, I am seeing a a player who was townreading, exclusively, a slot that everyone else thought (and for good reason), had excellent chances to be Koba's partner. Yeezys and Kenny voted for T3 fairly early in the day. Fixer told us, between those votes, that they would have voted T3, but miscounted and thought they were hammering if they did so (post 664, 670). Mbot publically endorsed a T3 lim in 709.

You were the only person to come out and say that you thought T3 was town, but you gave no reasons for doing so at the time. In fact, earlier on D1, when you scumread Andres, you gave "On 2 E-2 wagons" as a reason for doing so, and pointed out that "Each time followed by ssbm_Kyouko (T3)"; but you decided Andres was scummy, and T3 was town? You then hammered T3 without a claim over two days before the deadline because you "compromised". I've been asking you the question, because the lone, unexplained early D2 townread, followed by the willingness to hammer what turned out to be a scummy acting VT without a claim looks very much like TMI.

[Val89]

Is your issue that I differentiated between you, T3 and MBot? The same way I differentiated between kennyk, yeezys and fixer...?

I think I've been clear what my issue is. You gave T3 as your second strongest townread early on D2, but can give no other reason why you did other than you suspected other people. Is that the same reason you were townreading Mbot? Me?

Or are you trying to tell me that 677 wasn't an ordered list; or that green names aren't supposed to indicate townreads, and red ones scum?

[Val89]

I would also like to hear from fixer a damn sight more than we are. It feels gross and yucky to be reading into a slot based on their lack of activity, if such is being driven by real-life presures, but I am decidedly uncomfortable with potentially, if Looker is pulling a T3 on us, going into a ELO tomorrow knowing I'm going to be voting for what is essentially a null slot for me, because right now I can't see any scenario in which I would be voting for kenny or mbot over fixer if I am still around to making that vote, and kenny has essentially just said the same.

I do think the game is over on a Looker flip, but I thought the same about T3, and I have just finish a game I won, but very nearly lost because I had miscleared a scum and fixated on a town who I was so sure was scum I was ready to go down myself to get limmed because I thougt they were playing how I considered I would play as scum.

If fixer is town, he also better be pretty damn sure Looker is the last scum here, because he has to know he is very likely just done for tomorrow. Scum can only night kill once, and while there isn't anything now that can prevent it, one of me or kenny is going to be in that F3, if not both.

In other words, if you have things to say, fixer, today is the day to do it. Tomorrow may well be too late.

[Val89]

I still don't understand Val89's case...or anyone's. I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)

It is true that I haven't made a wallpost listing every last thing I find scummy about you, largely because fixer has promised to tell us why he is scumreading you and, while he may have gueniue activity problems, the more this keeps going on, the more I think he may potentially be deliberately dodging doing so. I don't want to make my wallpost and then have fixer just come along and say "yeah, what Val said".

I've said a few times now, this part of my case that we are discussing - your D2 progression on T3 - is something I did not understand, something I considered

could

be scum indicative, but also I could be misunderstanding something, so I asked you about it. As I say, it's not the only concern I have with you, or your predecessor slot for that matter, but I was asking about that because it is something I thought you could clear up for me if it wasn't scum indicative - but I

STILL

don't understand what you are trying to tell us.

If I quote the post it loses the colours. It's at 677. I am sure everyone has already seen it several times already. You use 3 different colours, as well as listing everyone individually except the final two, who occupy the same line "X or Y". Are you telling us that Val, T3, and MBot were all actually "null" reads for you, and it's a playstyle thing to call them townreads, and put them in a list that looks ordered but isn't, without explanation?

I don't think my issue here is difficult to understand. It looks very much like you made a readslist, and it appears you did so in response to pressure on your own slot, that was representing to us that you were following the game, you had townreads of varying strengths (with the unwritten assumption that there were reasons for those townreads other than simply knowing they were town), you didn't agree with everyone else's assessment on T3 because you had actual, proper reasons to be townreading there - but following that, then made little or no effort to tell the rest of us that you thought T3 was flipping town because X reasons, while he was being run up by everyone else. Once T3 hit E-1 (with that E-1 vote coming from someone you had the bottom of your readlist), you hammered him, without a claim, with a decent amount of time on the clock, casting that hammer vote in the same post as answering questions directed towards you (Ie: while a discussion about your own slot was still ongoing), and have told us today that T3 didn't say or do anything to change your read, you simply did so because that was the majority consensus.

When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3 other than you found other players scummy, nor explain any of your other behavior around it in a way that makes me think this wasn't a scumplay. Yes, the 'hammer without a claim' thing is such an openly dodgy thing to do, I have asked myself if a lone scum would draw attention to themselves in such a way, but then I remember that this was a game in which Koba was acting the way they were D1 and getting 'obvtown'ed for it. I also think that perhaps you decided the utility in shutting down the conversation I was trying to start yesterday about that this very readslist overrode any such issues.

The fact that is does appear to me like you were trying to shut down that conversation (as well as one Mbot was trying to have about the makeup of your ISO) is a big part of why I'm coming back to this over and over again and trying to make sure it doesn't get lost, frankly.

[Val89]

regarding the colored list - none of the lines were the same color, not even the red ones with fixer and yeezys. That's the part that confused me, as in why would you harp over the green colors but not the red colors.

Yes, OK, I didn't notice there were 5 colours rather than 3, but I don't think it matters. What does matter, and this was obvious from the fact that yeezys and kenny occupied the same line, notwithstanding the colours, was it was an ordered list of scumreads v townreads.

I took that list to mean "I am most confident about Mbot being town, followed by T3, followed by Val, who I am least confident about but still more likley to flip town than scum. Then fixer seems more scum than town to me, but I am less confident about that then yeezys or kenny, who are equally scummy in my eyes". I further think you ought to have known that was how that was going to be taken.

That simply does not tally with what you are telling us now, that you thought all of Val, T3, Mbot as "null" instead of town, because you didn't have any reason to suspect us while you did for the other three, and you went and hammered T3 in the end simply because they were a concensus choice. The fact that this doesn't tally is why I continue to question you about it.

You keep attacking my communication skills but not taking any ownership of comprehension, as if a conversation is a one-sided thing. We both have to try. That's why I keep asking you questions instead of dismissing you and saying you're dumb or scum.

I don't beleive I am attacking your communication skills. I don't think we are having a communication issue. I think this is a 'caught scum with no actual answer, so no other choice than to try and make it out like you don't understand the question, or that the answer you've given is perfectly reasonable I just don't understand it, and thus avoid dealing with it' issue.

[Val89]

What pressure?

Spoiler: Pressure can come from from other sources other than votes.

pov, fixer carries
personally dont think looker's scum, as if that were the case they'd probably jump onto the t3 vote and make it a wagon for an easy mis-elim
maybe i'm wrong though becuase everyone has different playstyles
so uh, poe is t3 and looker????

For context: Fixers' last words before that 'fixer carries' comment were:

Looker I'm still neutral on but that might be where I look towards if T3 flips town.

Yeeyzs says that scum!looker would probably jump on the T3 wagon, but either way, if T3 flips town (which scum would know they would), then looker is where they will look next. Same is expressed by fixer. I can point to noises being made by other slots, but the point is a townblock was developing, and you were outside of it. I think it's clear at that point that a T3 mis-lim was looking bad for your long-term survival, and scum!you has to survive to the very end with a scumflip D1.

What you did, and the challenge now is to establish if this was simply co-inidicental to that fact, or a scum-motivated reaction to it; was to townread T3, and to put them as your second highest townread between myself and mbot. I asked you at the time why you were townreading there because I wanted to judge if the reasons you had made sense, in order to try and deduce which of the two applies. That was the conversation I was trying to have. Others (mainly fixer, 713) started to take an interest in this too. You just said "Process of elimination. It can't be T3 and yeezy/kennyk." and hammered T3, who only one page before you were townreading, cutting off any further discusion.

I've brought it back up today, and it isn't just me- I think all 4 other slots have said words to the effect that you seem to be attempting to dodge the issue again today. Are we all having communication difficulties?

In post 773, Val89 wrote:
When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3

other than

you found other players scummy


But that's a single reason.

Why are semantic games so important to you?

What would have been the advantage to this scumplay?

Which part?

I was trying to get to my Thanksgiving with the people I love

Thanksgiving was last Thursday, no? My recollection was the deadline still had 48+ hours left to run. You aren't the only player in this game. Why not declare a V/LA for the day and come back to it?

Spoiler: I never said that - I didn't call those three "null"

Oh please. That's very much what that second spoilered quote says to me. What is you position, then?

You. You vanity wagoned yeezys and fixer and only jumped on Koba last minute.

And that was more scummy than you, who vanitied Andres all the while we are at serious risk of a no-lim D1, and we only managed to get a lim at all by the grace of God, and by God I mean fferyllt and her generousity with the deadline extensions?

[Val89]

Fixer looks a hell of a lot better now.

I agree, although mainly for:

From this post up the interaction feels weird to me, and I could've probably TRed may for it, especially now with the Koba flip.

The interactions between floatingmay and Koba starting with post 280 to around 237, which was essentially a two page conversation between floatingmay and Koba, with occasional interjections from fixer, is the biggest hole in the scum!Looker theory.

I was agonising over that for a while, to the degree that at one point was I planing on voting for fixer over looker today, because it didn't read much like scum theatre to me at first. I had to reread it several times to catch where floatingmay actually townreads Koba, but is voting Koba until Looker replaces them and shifts the vote to Andres, where it is parked til EoD. Between floatingmay saying they townread Koba (at 311) and being replaced, the conversation between the two reads as Koba trying convince floatingmay that yeezys isn't scum, which raises an eyebrow.

Due to the fact that it does look pro-town Looker (or rather floatingmay) on the surface, I think fixer bringing that up here is pretty negative scum-utility, and he gets a bit of towncred from me for doing so. I think the fact that the surface level reading that "they did suspect Koba" (spoiler alert: for all of about 10 posts, without ever giving a reason, they just left their vote resting there) is what they took away is evidence they aren't lurking away, but following the game carefully, as Looker suggests. Looks the activity stuff might well be legit.

[Val89]

I don't understand what you're saying in the last part: If flipping town!T3 implicated scum!me, why would I flip T3 if I were scum and knew he was town? Wouldn't it make more sense to draw it out and wait? That's why I asked you what the scum advantage would be to this "scumplay" - none of it makes sense and doesn't come across as a working theory.

When presented with a PoE of player who was playing scummy enough to be at but was actually town then the final scum player; you don't see the scum advantage of that scum townreading said scummy player and trying to open the PoE further?

You don't see the scum advanatge, for, when it becomes clear that said scummy-town player was actually getting limmed regardless of what scum player does and it was a lost cause, and that scum starts to get quizzed on the reasons for townreading the scummy-town, cutting off that discussion because they don't actually have any reasons to reply with in the hope it gets forgotten about?

I can't see how the final scum could play any differently in the circumstances and still hope to win. Let me ask you this way: what was the town advantage, or motivation, for misrepresenting the strength of your townreads?

One of you is opportunistically being obtuse

And the other 3?

Because this is a word game and what you're saying is contradictory. So I have to figure out whether you're doing it on purpose or are genuinely having a hard time navigating comprehension.

It's not. It's a

social deduction

game. Playing word games is antithetical to properly deducing alignments. I am quite sure you are already away that, in English, the phrase "You can't give a single reason why X

other than

Y..." specifically acknolegdes that Y is the one and only reason for X. I can only conclude that you are pretending otherwise and claiming that I am being 'contradictory' to cloud the issues and provide oppotunity to continue throwing shade in every direction you can.

Then you're interpreting incorrectly. I said town, not null.

And we are going round in circles again. Why town?

I can understand if the 'play style difference' you were talking about is that, if you have no reasons to scum read someone, but no reason to townread them either, you still call that a townread, where I would call that null. Fine.

You didn't say Mbot, T3 and Me were all equally town for the same reason that 'process of elimination. It can't be any of those 3 and be yeezys/kennyk'; and for another reason that that doesn't account for the less-strong scumread on fixer, either. The fact that you represented you held those 3 townreads at 3 different strengths indicates 3 different sets of reasons for doing so.

There's a difference between me drawing out the day to sort because I'd just replaced in and a player who'd been here from the beginning trying to avoid suspicion. I'm trying to figure out a town-motivated reason for WKing at this point.

You are trying to represent that parking a vote on a player and trying to start a whole new counterwagon on a player that turned out to be town, with only few hours left on the clock and a serious risk of a mislim was "drawing out the day to sort?", while Mbot considating on a scum wagon rather than risk a nolim was 'trying to avoid suspicion'?

When a townblocks starts saying "It's either fixer or Looker"; your path to victory suddenly

requires

that you achieve a lim outside of yourself and fixer. Scum!you HAS to get a lim today on Mbot, Kenny or Val, without that second mason claiming today. That's how scum!you wins this game. The mason makes no difference to you tomorrow, because you have a change to NK them tonight, and if you guess wrong, while difficult, you still could just counterclaim it yourself and potentially convince the VT in the mix to vote with you.

It just so happens that, out of Mbot, Kenny and Me; Mbot is the only one of those 3 to already claim VT today, and you know they aren't claiming Mason when run up. You want us to lim Mbot today, despite her being your top unexplained townread yesterday, and kenny being your biggest scumread, and that is one big co-inicidence?

An Mbot lim just so happens to be exactly how scum wins this game. Same goes for scum!fixer, to be fair; on the outside chance of town!Looker - if an Mbot lim goes through today, same deal, try nightkill the mason and then they are in a F3 with Looker, whom I have said I find more scummy than fixer, and kenny might well feel the same.

I think Mbot is town, and her lim today looks to me to be the last chance for scum to win this game. My "town-motivated reason for WKing at this point", if 'white-knighting' is what I am doing, is to make sure that town wins, it's that simple.

So is shutting down conversation still scummy or no?

It looks to me like she is specifically avoiding shut down conversation by not hammering you here and now, which is what you did to T3 when conversation was about why you were townreading him. You answered the question - unsatisfactory - in the same post you hammered. Different standards for different behavior. If she had hammered you there as soon as fixer placed the E-1 vote while we were still talking about her alignment, and then you had flipped town, yeah, I would have found that suspicious. I don't find her effectively saying "I have nothing further to add, but I won't hammer yet so you have time to talk about it" even

remotely

comparable.

You really are clutching at straws now, Looker. Short of a straight up scum-slip, I'm not doing Mbot over you, end-of.

[Val89]

You're convoluting logical sentence structure

As you've brought up several times already, my English sucks. Noted. Acknowledged. Are my English skills (or lack thereof) supposed to speak to your alignment somehow? To mine?

You're going to great lengths to avoid that I thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

I have, have I?

Spoiler: Me going to great lengths to avoid that Looker thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

My question is why you thought T3 was town. When I asked,

you said "Process of elimination. It can't be T3 and yeezy/kennyk."

, but that doesn't really answer my question, because it couldn't be both yeezy/kennyk OR fixer, whom you also listed in red in your reads list. Process of elimination means, to me, working out who is town and then limming amongst the remaining null/scumreads. Your PoE seemed to be, as of 677 yeezy/kennk > fixer; but my quation is why was T3 green. Why was he eliminated from that PoE whereas fixer wasn't. That's what I am asking.

If you are trying to tell us

you labeled T3 as town purely because you already had decided yeezys, kennyk and/or fixer were more suspicous

, but had no actual reason to townread him apart from that, then I say again, that's the same as saying "I already had too many scumreads." If you had no reason to townread T3, but no reason to think them scummy either, then that puts them null, but that's not what you did - you gave T3 as your second strongest townread, behind only Mbot.

I think I've been clear what my issue is. You gave T3 as your second strongest townread early on D2, but can give

no other reason why you did other than you suspected other people

. Is that the same reason you were townreading Mbot? Me?

When questioned about it today, you haven't been able to give us a single reason you were townreading T3

other than you found other players scummy

I can understand if the 'play style difference' you were talking about is that,

if you have no reasons to scum read someone, but no reason to townread them either, you still call that a townread

, where I would call that null. Fine.

I am fully aware that your answer is that you were townreading T3 because you thought others were more scummy. There you go. Just done so again. Problem is, you already know what my problem is with that answer. You just refuse to address it.

Spoiler: Looker knows what that answer is unsatisfactory, given the list at 677.

Is your issue that I differentiated between you, T3 and MBot? The same way I differentiated between kennyk, yeezys and fixer...?

I think Val's is hinging on why I didn't put Val, T3, and MBot as "null" instead of town (which is his playstyle preference)

Okay, that makes way more sense. At work, so I can't address everything, but regarding the colored list - none of the lines were the same color, not even the red ones with fixer and yeezys. That's the part that confused me, as in why would you harp over the green colors but not the red colors.

Spoiler: I never said that - I didn't call those three "null"

Then you're interpreting incorrectly. I said town, not null.

Instead of even attempting to address why you gave this (677) list, instead of..

Spoiler: I thought T3 was town due to the playerlist around him

Mbot or T3 or Val

Yezzys or kennyk or Fixer

..which is what you been telling us was the situation. You suspected the bottom 3, so the rest of us were town, as there are no third parties. I'm pretty sure I know the answer as to why you gave the former rather than the more accurate later, and it's because you knew to give that readslist would raise an eyebrow. The read list you gave is recorded in thread. It doesn't match which what you told us when questioned about it. That the readlist misrepresents the actual status of your reads at that point is no longer a point of discussion. It's there in black and white. The remaining issue is to figure out why you gave it like you did. I have conjectured it is because you are scum.

[area="Also, explain how the PoE is opened further" - "So was it a foregone conclusion that T3 was getting eliminated or not?"]PoE was given by two slots at that point, on D2, as as T3 -> Looker. I think it's pretty obvious that prompts the chain of thought that "OK, if perhaps someone other than T3 gets limmed today, maybe I can still survive past D3."

At that point, when you posted your readslist, T3 getting limmed wasn't a "foregone conclusion". Doing anything other townreading T3 at that point would have been bad for your survival.

By the time of the hammer, however, I think it was pretty clear that T3 was going to be the lim with or without your vote and attention was turning to why you were townreading T3. You've been pretty consistant today that you didn't have any reason for townreading T3 apart from 'the playerlist around him', 'process of elimination', or whatever you call it. I would have hammered there as scum too. Yeah, it appears on the surface to be a pretty poor play in that it has drawn my attention; but it looks like you chose the lesser of two evils in the hope that it might be forgotten about overnight.[/area]

Are you deliberately trying to represent my position as the exact opposite as to what it is?

if I need the mason outed so bad, why was I the first one to shut down claiming? Wouldn't I have encouraged it?

Scum!you HAS to get a lim today on Mbot, Kenny or Val,

without that second mason claiming today.

I think this is the final straw that shows you aren't attempting the good faith discusion in an attempt to leave a legacy you tell us you are.

[Val89]

Why is everything I do "exactly" what scum need to win the game?

Well, Occams Razor says it's because you are scum. That's my point. It's one heck of a co-indicence that your reads have changed to match the exact scum path to victory otherwise, no?

You were proven wrong in 761

I was?!?!?! That's news to me.

It makes more sense that a town!Looker, town!fixer elimination sequence wins the game, and that's what it looks like has been set up to take place. If you were any good at your job (assuming you're town), you'd be dead already, and seeing as you appear to be the weaker of the two between yourself and MBot, I have to assume she's the scum.

Your read on fixer has changed now, then? There is literally only one scum remaining. I think Mbot and Kenny are both town. I think they were both spewed as much by Koba D1. I think the possibility that either of those are scum, and they and Koba were running some deliberate WIFOMy distancing plan which involves using the sheeping power Koba openly had to point the FoS at each other is so slim to belong in the realm of tinfoil. I think you are the final scum - I think floatingmay looks good for Koba's partner, and your actions on D2 and the lim you are trying to achieve now makes perfect sense as coming from scum, but not so much from town. Fixer hasn't given a lot to work with, and it worried me for a while, but what he has given hasn't pinged me as scummy, particulary today. It's done the opposite.

Unless anything has changed since they both last posted, I think Mbot and Kenny have both been pretty consistent in that they also think the final scum is in you or fixer. Fixer is voting you. He doesn't appear to be gearing up to jump on the Mbot wagon, either, or try garner support for a wagon elsewhere, as I would expect scum!fixer to do. The fact that, as you say, the most likely lim tomorrow after a town!Looker flip looks like might well be fixer given the public statements by the remaining three slots, and fixer is still ready for a Looker lim makes it look very much to me like we are dealing with a town!fixer who actually beleives you are scum and the game is over with your flip, rather than a scum!fixer angling for a mislim.

I am sorry, but I am not following the argument that me being alive means Mbot is scum in the slightest, even trying to view it through the assumption that you are town.

Does 89 mean you were born in 89?

Yes.

[Val89]

Well, I for one just can't

wait

to see what is being said about me in the dead thread.

If you want anything productive from me, I am afraid you are going to have to wait awhile - I need to go back and read the whole game again from scratch. I literally have no idea at this point.

[Val89]

I hate F3s with a passion. This one, particulary, since I really just don't know and it feels like basically a coin flip.

I did get a sense reading back is that both of you were essentially content with letting me do all the legwork yesterday, and, knowing now I was off-base with Looker, I am feeling decidely uncomfortable about being the useful idiot again today.

We've had two Mason deaths back-to-back, but I'm still scratching my head about that first kill, and can't find an explantion for it which makes sense for either scum. I

still

don't follow whatever Looker was trying to tell us about me being alive pointing to Mbot being scum. I thought, after Lookers flip, and thus confirmation that floatingmay was actually town, that conversation between them and Koba that made me raise an eyebrow seemed to make a bit more sense, but then Koba says in the middle of it, in 316 "Although I do agree on kenny."

Clearly, I ought not to have ruled it out as quickly as I did, but the idea we could have had two competing scum wagons on D1, with both partners cross-voting each other, is an idea that is just completely wild to me, as is the idea that Mbot hammered her scum buddy D1, with about 20 minitues left on the clock, instead of just staying off-line and allowing a no-lim to happen. I'm totally lost, and I know full well anyone meta-ing me in the future is going to point to this game as evidence I have no idea what scum actually does, despite me catching one out the gate. Just fuck this game.

[Val89]

For me it suggested, that Val knew, that Koba couldn't be a mason, because he himself had a power role.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. At the time of post 341, I had no idea what type of game we were dealing with. I think it's fairly obvious my intent with that post was to signal to our PRs that they

shouldn't

claim, since the potential scum motivation for a scum!Koba playing as they were was...well, exactly as I spell out in that post.

Seeing that it turned out we were in a Mason game, and it seems apparent that scum deduced that and took out the masons N2 and N3, I went back to have a look at Andres' ISO to see if they said anything to suggest they could have been a mason partner, and perhaps that would explain that kill. I couldn't find anything to suggest that, but while I was re-reading that ISO, something else came out quite strongly - that Andres was, while pretty strongly arguing for a town!Koba, also the loudest voice in suspecting Kenny.

That completely passed over my head previously because I spent D2 and D3 assuming kenny was town because of the cross-wagon thing I refered to in my previous post, and I was suprised by that kill because

I

found Andres scummy because of the first part. I appear to have made the mistake again of reading events in the game through what

I

know and think. I wouldn't have made that kill in kenny's shoes, because with a Koba scum flip, it's quite possible that Andres would have reconsidered their read on kenny, but the weakness in my game is obviously making the mistake of assuming scum would do or not do something because of how I would play as scum; and perhaps a scum!kenny did think taking out Andres there was the play.

There is no way I am voting there yet, however. I am still uncomfortable that both of the remaining slots hung back somewhat yesterday (although kenny a little moreso than Mbot, to be totally fair) and scum obviously let me run off and do the dirty work for them with looker - I'm not rushing into following my first thoughts and risk repeating that.

I'm going on a little roadtrip this weekend, but I shall return Monday.

@Mod: Please consider me V/LA until then.

[Val89]

I'm convinced.

VOTE: MBot

[Val89]

I've just got back from my trip, not realising how close the deadline actually was. I wanted to get down my vote now I've made a decision before I second, thrid, fourth guess myself again. I'm done with this one.

At the end of the day, I arrived at basically the same conclusion as you, Kenny. I was townreading Mbot becuase of the D1 play, particulary the hammer on Koba. I thought that, despite Lookers claims yesterday, I did feel as those a no-lim D1 was a distinct and clear possibility, but I also felt that, there was just no way a scum!Mbot would have taken such a drastic action as to hammered her own scum buddy without discussing it in the scum PT first, and would no doubt have been told by Koba not to do so if they had.

Of course, my assumptions about what scum would or would not do have been proven wrong a few times this game, and when I looked beyond that, it had been MBot who had been the one to trigger my spidy senses, even if only a little. Even after I decided she was deserving of a townread, vote parking on fixer when the game was moving on was enough to draw a question from me, and her response did read on the overly-defensive side. The "PoE VT reveal" didn't make much sense, and her opening statement that one of us was a mason smelt a little of an attempt to dumbtell.

I also have to take into account Andres' advice that sometimes, if you are lost and don't know what to do, you should probably look at what others are doing and follow them. Looker, whom we now know was gueniune, decided it was Mbot, even over fixer, and gave reasons for it, even if I still can't quite understand them, I think I ought to put some trust in them - and no, I'm not trying to make Looker shoulder some of the responsibility if I am wrong here, it's all on me.

You, Kenny, on the other hand, only pinged me in that it seemed to me you were very interested in the PRs, particulary in speculating on Masons, and I did wonder if it was a co-ordinated effort with Koba in attempt to draw out the PR-claims. I also have come to conclusion it's probably a C3 setup. I decided though, with Koba being as obvious as they were about it, you jumping in and calling Koba a mason, then trying to say you thought I was the partner, etc, just looks a bit TOO easy for that to actually be scum-motivated, when compared to MBots actions.

The initial willingness to suspect me, then the pivot to MBot at risk of either or both of us accusing you on OMGUS, and the willingness to actually vote first here sold it for me.

I hope it's GG all of us, except them scummy scumbags. If not, it was vey well played.

[Val89]

I admit I might also have avoided justifying my vote until I saw your after hammer post, which convinced me I had voted in the right place, in case I was wrong and needed to go hide.