Open 838 – ISITMAINAC [Endgame]

[Jacket]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

[Nathann]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

Not sure how I feel about this, and the general townbinning Scorpious for doing that gambit. Like, he's an experienced played, and he said himself he likes doing that gambit to sort. Which means it's not a one-time thing he came up with here, it's something he's used to doing, so it's more likely he'd attempt it regardless of alignment. I don't see what's stopping scum from doing a "gambit" there, in hopes of a townie correctly calling out what was a terrible vote in order to seem proactive.

Maybe this isn't that signifcant, considering he never did end up voting me, but eh.

[Jacket]

I am not scum with Scorp, because I am not scum, period. I do not need to disprove myself being scum with a player who has not been flipped. Why is that a hard concept to grasp, Three?

[Three]

Why aren't either of you looking at the case I presented?

I'm not "looking at the case" you presented because any argument that I am scum because of my interactions with Scorp is

prima facie

wrong, and there's no actual rebuttal to give. I know I'm town, so I can't be scum with Scorp. Having to make arguments in the form of "If I was scum with Scorp, I wouldn't be playing this way" are almost completely useless. Although it's funny to me you seem to be so confident scumbuddies would act this way, given that I have never seen scum interact the way me and Scorp have.

If you're town, this is an incredibly unproductive tunnel to be heading down. Pre-flip associative reads on Day 1 are almost never right. If you want to make a case for why I'm scum independent, go right ahead and try, and I'll tell you why it's wrong.

I see. So then Strange should go if not Scorpius?

Interesting that both of you shade RH9, and then Strange as well after RC brought up that point about Strange and Salsa. This all feels very weird.

I do not want to eliminate Scorpious. Strange would be my preferred vote, although most seem to disagree. I don't like that they're hyperfocused on STD to the exclusion of the rest of the game. I'd probably vote ADSE over Scorp if necessary for the deadline.

I didn't "shade" RH9, I outright scumread him when I replaced in, although I've changed my mind since then. I have no idea what RCE's point about Strange and Salsa was supposed to be, or why it matters. What are you trying to imply?

I literally just had a two games in a row where scum did exactly what you two are doing, it's really not out of the ordinary for scum to distance from each other. I wouldn't call this a tunnel either, it's literally just an observation I made and an following through on by interacting with and responding to the players I'm trying to solidify my read on. I'm not even voting you so I'm not even sure how this could be considered a tunnel. I know I could be wrong, if I was confident I was right I wouldn't even be questioning you.

I could vote Strange to get a lim in time to meet the deadline but I still think Scorpius is the better choice. If I have to compromise on Strange then fine, since I agree their posts aren't good and my read on them has been dropping.

Shading my read on you here again isn't good, like I have no idea what you mean by saying I'm "clearly falling into the same traps" because this isn't even close to how I read you in Opossum Mafia. There I fake argued with you about a playstyle thing try to get scum to think I would tunnel you so they would leave me alive, here I'm seeing associations with my biggest scum read and weird interactions between you two.

...okay, I didn't realize that was actually what you were doing in that game. I still think your guilt by association reasoning is really bad.

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

[Jacket]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

Not sure how I feel about this, and the general townbinning Scorpious for doing that gambit. Like, he's an experienced played, and he said himself he likes doing that gambit to sort. Which means it's not a one-time thing he came up with here, it's something he's used to doing, so it's more likely he'd attempt it regardless of alignment. I don't see what's stopping scum from doing a "gambit" there, in hopes of a townie correctly calling out what was a terrible vote in order to seem proactive.

Maybe this isn't that signifcant, considering he never did end up voting me, but eh.

Occam's razor. I've never seen scum attempt to make that kind of justification for their play. It's possible one

could

do it, but in my estimation unlikely, because those types of plays tend to backfire. If his other posts were terrible I might reconsider, but I had felt, for instance, that 231/235/239 was a strong interrogative sequence that showed he was really intent on sorting Galron.

[Jacket]

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

[Nathann]

Reading the Three/Jacket argument, I was feeling Three is looking better from it, up until the point he started insisting that Jacket offer some rebuttal on why he's not scum with Scorpious. It's just... I'm trying to think of in what way would a person be able to respond to accusations like those without it being a bunch of wifom garbage, or what there is to gain from reading a person's response there.

[Three]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

This is a direct response though...?

I am not scum with Scorp, because I am not scum, period. I do not need to disprove myself being scum with a player who has not been flipped. Why is that a hard concept to grasp, Three?

Because repeating "I'm not scum" over and over gives me nothing.

[Three]

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

Are you serious

Guilt by association requires a flip. I'm pointing out your interactions and giving thoughts on them and explaining my reasoning behind my thoughts. I've made it very explicit that it isn't a "guilt by association" read. Why are you even arguing this?

And obviously my reasoning falls apart there. Because I'm going by interactions. I'm not sure what your point is by saying that.

[Jacket]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

This is a direct response though...?

You have continued to ignore the points I am actually making in order to demand I disprove your case about my interactions with Scorp making us scum together. This is in spite of me repeatedly explaining why I believe trying to address such arguments are beyond useless. I find it increasingly harder to believe that this is coming in good faith, that you are that unable to comprehend what I am saying.

[Jacket]

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

Are you serious

Guilt by association requires a flip. I'm pointing out your interactions and giving thoughts on them and explaining my reasoning behind my thoughts. I've made it very explicit that it isn't a "guilt by association" read. Why are you even arguing this?

And obviously my reasoning falls apart there. Because I'm going by interactions. I'm not sure what your point is by saying that.

Great. So you're full of shit.

[Jacket]

There's not enough time left in the day, but if I'm alive tomorrow I'm thunderdoming Three.

[Three]

Reading the Three/Jacket argument, I was feeling Three is looking better from it, up until the point he started insisting that Jacket offer some rebuttal on why he's not scum with Scorpious. It's just... I'm trying to think of in what way would a person be able to respond to accusations like those without it being a bunch of wifom garbage, or what there is to gain from reading a person's response there.

Because I'm asking if there was some flaw in my logic or if there was something I misrepresented. If I'm just getting repeatedly told my read is bad but not what I got wrong, it doesn't really help me reevaluate.

[Jacket]

Which, BTW, there's only 15 hours left.

[Three]

You say I have a poor understanding of what an emotional appeal is then immediately admit to mocking me.

I didn't say I should be able to read you off of one game I played with you. I also didn't misread you there. And you're not really explaining how I'm misreading you here either.

If you think I'm wrong about your ties to Scorpius, explain why, because you haven't done that. You don't have to respond aggressively to his accusations, or mine either. But saying nothing more than "your read is bad/unfathomable/ridiculous" doesn't tell me anything and I'm just left with trying to read your tone and interactions.

This is responding to literally almost nothing I actually said.

This is a direct response though...?

You have continued to ignore the points I am actually making in order to demand I disprove your case about my interactions with Scorp making us scum together. This is in spite of me repeatedly explaining why I believe trying to address such arguments are beyond useless. I find it increasingly harder to believe that this is coming in good faith, that you are that unable to comprehend what I am saying.

What did I ignore? Why is this not in good faith to you but a random death tunnel because you said the word "skim" is?

Guilt by association...? I just thought your interactions were fishy.

Saying "these two people have fishy interactions, they must be scum be scum together" is a guilt by association read. The problem with that read is, if Scorp's town, your reasoning for me being scum falls apart completely.

Are you serious

Guilt by association requires a flip. I'm pointing out your interactions and giving thoughts on them and explaining my reasoning behind my thoughts. I've made it very explicit that it isn't a "guilt by association" read. Why are you even arguing this?

And obviously my reasoning falls apart there. Because I'm going by interactions. I'm not sure what your point is by saying that.

Great. So you're full of shit.

Complete 180. Wow lol.

There's not enough time left in the day, but if I'm alive tomorrow I'm thunderdoming Three.

You've been adamant that I'm town though? And said you dislike OMGUS? Is this supposed to make me town read you?

[Cook]

VC

A Dreary Saturday Evening (5) [E-2]: Nathann, Cupcake Butterfly, RCEnigma, RH9, Greeting

Scorpious (5) [E-2]: Galron, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia, Three, A Dreary Saturday Evening

Save The Dragons (1): StrangeMatter
StrangeMatter (1): Jacket
RH9 (1): Scorpious

With 13 alive it takes 7 to reach a majority.

There are (expired on 2021-12-17 02:29:03) left before deadline.

[Scorpious]

My vote is on RH9

[Jacket]

What did I ignore? Why is this not in good faith to you but a random death tunnel because you said the word "skim" is?

You have never actually explained why me having a "muted" response to pressure makes me more likely to be scum.

I have tried to explain why I responded to Scorp the way I did, and how this is a trait of how I play, rather than anything alignment indicative. You refused to even touch this point.

I have also already explained why I didn't push back on Scorp right away - when someone pushes me I try to question them to see if I can determine their intentions.

Scorp pushed me for reasons, I explained what I was doing and why his reasons were wrong, he realized this was likely a clash of playstyles between us and backed down. I did not get the sense he was pushing me just for the sake of pushing me. (I can already see you citing this as evidence that we are obviously scum together). Again, this is something I keep explaining.

I have also explained why trying to rebut arguments about interactions can only result in "a bunch of wifom garbage", as Nathann put it. You ignore this to keep claiming I'm refusing to give you a rebuttal when I have repeatedly explained why I believe it is bad reasoning that is worthless to respond to.

I do not believe you could be so dense as to not comprehend what I am saying despite me making the points repeatedly. That is why you are not arguing in good faith.

Complete 180. Wow lol.

You've been adamant that I'm town though? And said you dislike OMGUS? Is this supposed to make me town read you?

This is willful misrepresentation. I said that I do not want to eliminate you and that your suspicion of me was

probably

town-indicative. This was in part due to a faulty assumption on my part that you had misread me entirely in 2242, which is apparently untrue. I was never strong on you being town and I think it's pretty clear my opinion of you degraded over the course of our interactions as you repeatedly demanded I prove myself to not be scum with a player who hasn't been flipped.

Acting like I was confident you were town is a ridiculous distortion to try to discredit my push back against you. It's also verifiably untrue.

[Nathann]

My vote is on RH9

Do you intend to move it anytime soon?

[Scorpious]

Anyway, as stated I would support a SM lim, RH9 does not seem like a viable wagon today.

Let’s see if this gets any traction

VOTE: StrangeMatter

I felt the initial exchange with Nathann was very fluffy and an attempt to establish themselves in the game. And has not done anything since. I have a gut read that one of them is scum. Nathann has done a lot more and I feel a lot more transparent. Not TR, but not a vote today.

ADSE seems opportunistic with little reasoning. I would have no problem voting them to secure a lim.

[Jacket]

Nathann
Scorpious
Galron
Cupcake Butterfly

Greeting
RH9

Save The Dragons
A Dreary Saturday Evening
Not_Mafia
StrangeMatter



Three

[Scorpious]

Which way is this list going?

[Jacket]

Thinking about it, CB might be a tier too high, although that's splitting hairs.

[Jacket]

Which way is this list going?

Town to scum, obviously. Names only loosely ordered within tiers.

[StrangeMatter]

I'm kind of shocked anyone could have me as top town right now.

With regard to Scorpious: the big brain Slayer's_Gambit of 345 is the type of play I almost never see scum making. People always end up paranoid of it and

scum usually end try to justify their actions in a conventional way

, rather than claiming "I was being scummy on purpose!!". His earlier posts had good questioning and a healthy dose of paranoia toward other players, they weren't bad by any means, so it's honestly hard for me to believe he'd make a weak vote "accidentally" and then try to cover it up with that excuse as scum. I don't really get the hate he's getting for that. I didn't like his push on me, but I feel like he could have just been legitimately misinterpreting the post I made when I was entering the game and getting hung up on my word choice.

What do you mean by "in a conventional way" here?