Open 838 – ISITMAINAC [Endgame]

[RCEnigma]

NM would have been my preferred vig shot if we mislimmed twice anyways. He's cool to have around if he's a pr. Generally he's pretty easily readable when town but he wasn't here so he's essentially a dead or scum slot in the context of this game.

We have the core of your arguments (three and jacket) so at this point it's probably best for you both to step back for a bit or focus elsewhere for a moment and come back.

I have an idea of where I stand on both slots but the AtE makes me want you both gone and I don't feel that's the best way to go about it

[RCEnigma]

Let's talk about Cupcake being the scumkill Target which is more alignment and gamestate indicative than vig/SK's targeting.

[Jacket]

So much for being able to read me. If you're expecting me to blow up in response to getting pushed, that's just not going to happen.

Well...

It happened.

Turns out I have a breaking point.

[Jacket]

Let's talk about Cupcake being the scumkill Target which is more alignment and gamestate indicative than vig/SK's targeting.

No clue. He was actually falling in my reads at the end of the day because he wasn't doing anything memorable. Most of his last posts were pushing the wagon on ADSE and didn't mention much in the way of reads besides that. Probably a PR hunt kill rather than anything reads-based?

[Nathann]

How much of this game's important content will I lose if I skip all of Jacket and Three's shitfight? I'll probably end up reading it anyway, because I hate myself, but it's nice to dream.

[Jacket]

We have the core of your arguments (three and jacket) so at this point it's probably best for you both to step back for a bit or focus elsewhere for a moment and come back.

I have an idea of where I stand on both slots but the AtE makes me want you both gone and I don't feel that's the best way to go about it

I keep getting hammered by Three using outrageously terrible logic and then accusing me of not being genuine when I call them on their outrageous shitpush. Almost no one else is even talking, so I don't have a lot to work with. Gave my reads but not strongly confident on anyone besides Three.

[Jacket]

How much of this game's important content will I lose if I skip all of Jacket and Three's shitfight? I'll probably end up reading it anyway, because I hate myself, but it's nice to dream.

I don't think there's any actual content besides that, honestly.

But if you want

something

else to look at, take a look at 223 231 235 239 and tell me if you think it makes sense as being partnered with Galron.

[Nathann]

I skimmed Galron's ISO. Not much worth mentioning, guy's interactions were pretty bland and there's nothing I'd feel confident pointing out as strongly SvS or TvS. Except for the game-long vote on Galron, I only now realized he was parked there the entire Day 1. I think that that is very unlikely to come from a partner. I'd assume that, if scum were deciding to RVS their buddy, they'd look for an opportunity to jump off as soon as possible, because if it happened that their buddy actually started getting votes, and they were to jump off

then

, they'd look absolutely horrible. Coupled with the fact that the wagons at EoD1 gave me a strong not-SvT gut feeling, I'm decently confident in saying Scorpious is not groupscum.

In somewhat related news, 139 is interesting. I don't know Salsabil's meta very well, but I kind of doubt her first serious vote of the game would be on a partner like that. So that would mean that *checks notes* Jacket is not groupscum either.

Heh, I may end up not needing to read the shitfight after all.

[Jacket]

In Three-world, apparently Galron voting for Scorpious and Scorpious voting for me on day 1 means we are all mafia together, as if that makes any sense whatsoever. As if that's how scum play. Three is continuing to push a worldview that doesn't really make sense based on Galron's flip, because Three does not care about trying to solve the game. They only want to pursue a narrative that is convenient for them.

[Jacket]

(I could totally see Scorpious as being the one who shot Galron, though. Or possibly StrangeMatter, because while I don't think they're groupscum their play kind of fits the profile of an SK trying to go under the radar)

[Jacket]

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

What do you mean by less opportunistic, and especially what do you mean by mechanics? Also, what pings you as less opportunistic?

Strange never actually talks directly abut Galron, only has this post in their ISO asking RH9 about him. Doesn't do a whole lot for me either way.

[Nathann]

But if you want something else to look at, take a look at 223 231 235 239 and tell me if you think it makes sense as being partnered with Galron.

Hm. I would say that it's not impossible for that to be distancing, but it's definitely not my first place to look at. It would maybe make sense if Scorpious saw that his partner Galron made a read on him that's nonsense and tried to do some damage control, but again, I'd need a bit more to be sold to vote there. I ctrl+F'ed "Scorp" in Galron's ISO, and he did end up suspecting him throughout of Day 1 in a way that I don't think is common for scum to do to their partners. What's the endgame here, tunnel your partner throughout the whole game and do nothing else? I don't find it likely.

[Jacket]

i think galron's town

i think galron's town

Enlighten me?

i played a game where galron just asked banal questions and was scum

i played another game where galron was actually invested and played kinda more like this and was ubertown

meta is bad

that's why i said "think"

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=87844 - ubertown game

can't find the scum game

Meh. Most people were wrong on Galron in a look through ISOs, so I'm not sure what to actually think about this. I think the read combined with 178 is potentially partner-indicative.

[Nathann]

(I could totally see Scorpious as being the one who shot Galron, though. Or possibly StrangeMatter, because while I don't think they're groupscum their play kind of fits the profile of an SK trying to go under the radar)

I guess, I'm not sold on StrangeMatter's slot being non-groupscum personally, but that does fit with the most likely play of an SK. Scorpious would make sense as SK if they would operate under the "shoot the person scumreading me the most" strategy, but Scorpious's play on Day 1 doesn't really give me a "trying to go under the radar" feel.

[Nathann]

(I could totally see Scorpious as being the one who shot Galron, though. Or possibly StrangeMatter, because while I don't think they're groupscum their play kind of fits the profile of an SK trying to go under the radar)

I guess, I'm not sold on StrangeMatter's slot being non-groupscum personally, but that does fit with the most likely play of an SK. Scorpious would make sense as SK if they would operate under the "shoot the person scumreading me the most" strategy, but Scorpious's play on Day 1 doesn't really give me a "trying to go under the radar" feel.

[Nathann]

Scorpious (5) [E-2]: Galron, Save The Dragons, Not_Mafia, Three, A Dreary Saturday Evening

Meh. If SK!Scorpious were shooting on his wagon, Galron does make sense as the most likely shot I think, the others are either dead, lurkers, or in a distracting 1v1. But obviously this is all far out there, and knowing my luck we probably don't have an SK anyway and I'm wasting my precious brainpower, but oh well.

[Nathann]

I think the read combined with 178 is potentially partner-indicative.

I find it ever so slightly anti-indicative, considering I'm not sure scum goes "my partner is Town, Actually" and then the only thing they offer for proof of that is some vague meta. That said, I don't like Save The Dragons as a whole (alignment-wise, nothing personal), and I believe our IC still owes us an explanation for why he's obvtown, so.

[Jacket]

So what's your read on Scorpious, Greeting? And if you don't have one, what will it take to get you to have one?

It's neutral. There is nothing that worries me and nothing that makes me think that they're town.

Post 208 can be interpreted in various ways. I'm choosing to interpret it as a good way to find some harder clues on anybody, but I keep it in the back of my mind to see which way the game will progress from this. What I mean is, only time will tell if overreliance on meta turns this game into a bizarre twist. But so far, the progress has been quite slow, and the impact of this post has been small, even though 13 hours passed since that post was made. The only player whom I really feel like I can compare-check, knowing them from past games is

StrangeMatter

, but I still think it's too early for me to draw any definite conclusions (see post 218).

I understand that you're relatively new here so like with the jester thing I want to make sure I understand you. What do you mean by bizarre twist?

Let me paint a picture.

Scorpious

makes a post which leads to players pouring out their experiences with others in the game. Players start pouring their thoughts. Two, maybe three posts align in content and players find some common points. This starts to carry the game, with players getting obsessed with meta and, indeed find someone who's acting differently. That becomes the sole reason why they're being voted out. This is what I would call a bizarre twist and could be used easily to frame someone.

And here's what I say to this picture: meta can be useful, but personally I would never vote out a player just because they act differently to another game. To me, it always comes second to actual reads which I see as: content (obviously), voting record, tone of posts. Meta in my eyes can support a townlean or a scumlean.

Oh and what will it take me to get me to have one? More time and more posts from them.

Who is this about?

You.

Galron

I don’t want to eliminate Galron today.

I can characterise their playstyle as being open - open to suggestions, open to thoughts, open to investigation. And this more often occurs amongst town than scum. They’re fairly relaxed and their pokes toward other players (110, 178, 359) make sense, are logical and warranted. I’m sort of thankful for them, because they generate content from other players for me to analyse. And this is actual content that moves the game forward.

Nonetheless, this cannot also be a townlean. What this slot lacks is more conviction, and stronger reads than posts with few sentences and words. The only longer read by them I found is that on myself (mistakenly labeled as „Cupcake”, although it’s sweet being called „Cupckake”!), in 327. I need more analytical thinking and more effort to comfortably elevate this to a soft townread.

Greetings, do you have any actual thoughts on people's alignments? Same question to Scorpious, actually.

I have two, maybe not

per se

about alignments.

Not_Mafia

is a jester and I know that from another game I've been in with them. Plus, they were scum in this game. But we apparently also have a second jester, who seems really more invested in distractions and diversions and not the actual game.

I'm really, really distrustful of jesters.

And that is, VOTE: Save The Dragons. Until they show me otherwise.

This seems to me a lazy vote. You are or are not scum reading him or are you just waiting for him to town tell?

So what's your read on Scorpious, Greeting? And if you don't have one, what will it take to get you to have one?

It's neutral. There is nothing that worries me and nothing that makes me think that they're town.

Post 208 can be interpreted in various ways. I'm choosing to interpret it as a good way to find some harder clues on anybody, but I keep it in the back of my mind to see which way the game will progress from this. What I mean is, only time will tell if overreliance on meta turns this game into a bizarre twist. But so far, the progress has been quite slow, and the impact of this post has been small, even though 13 hours passed since that post was made. The only player whom I really feel like I can compare-check, knowing them from past games is

StrangeMatter

, but I still think it's too early for me to draw any definite conclusions (see post 218).

I understand that you're relatively new here so like with the jester thing I want to make sure I understand you. What do you mean by bizarre twist?

I think we're on the same page, Greeting.

This also doesn't really do a whole lot for me. I think the questioning leading to "I think we're on the same page" could be pocketing as ADSE theorized but there's nothing here that makes me say these people are definitely not partnered. The read on Galron seems to split the difference a little neatly and avoid actually calling him town, which I could see an inexperienced partner doing.

However, I think on individual play Greeting has still shown a strong effort level in his analysis, which for a newbie is typically town-indicative. Shrug.

[Nathann]

I understand. So StrangeMatter is getting voted for 'lack of content', Three is for 'bad faith' arguments, and Jacket for telling the Vig to shoot N_M and 'coordinating a mislim' on ADSE.

This feels like shitposting. Where is the promised VCA?

[Jacket]

Sorry Galron! Don't worry, you are my townlean!

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

How does that add to me being town?

Forgot about the SK.

RH9, I'll try to make this clearer:

You said you think Galron is town, and as per 211, it's because he's not talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic. While I don't think that's really a good way to read someone, I'm not sure I get why town!you, who's allegedly townreading Galron, posts 194 - this post seems like you agree with my scumlean on them and are trying to encourage me. Why did you post it?

It was a misinterpretation.

What does 266 even mean??

I forgot that the SK could exist.

I guess I'm having trouble how SK relates.

I forgot that even though I find that you aren't Mafia, it doesn't mean that you can't be the NK-Immune Miller Vig (if that exists).

For the record, I don't have a problem with my post being interpreted as "Galron trying to be townread", since that is more or less what I meant. It seems like he's trying to ask the right questions, but it's just not... quite there.

As to how RH9 saw that being similar to his play in another game where he was scum, then decided the plays aren't the same, and then still townreads Galron is beyond me. RH9, why is Galron town?

Galron isn't talking mechanics and seems less opportunistic.

What do you mean by less opportunistic, and especially what do you mean by mechanics? Also, what pings you as less opportunistic?

Galron would be more into pocketing the first person he sees as Mafia as well as talking about the underlying mechanics of the game instead of solving.

What does 266 even mean??

I forgot that the SK could exist.

I got that you were saying you forgot about the possibility of an SK, I'm just not sure how that relates. The explanation for "I think you aren't Mafia, but I don't know whether you're SK" is... fine, I guess, but my problem then is why you're pointing that out with Galron, while you don't seem to be pointing that out with your other townread. What makes you think Galron might be SK, that you don't also extend to me?

If you want, I could.

The question wasn't whether you can; the question was why you didn't. I'd like if you answered it. And do you often evade answering questions by making evading comments like these?

OK. I just think that your scumhunting felt more Town than SK.

OK. I just think that your scumhunting felt more Town than SK.

...What about it felt more town than SK? How does one's scumhunting even feel SK-like?

IDK. It's just vibes.

Now that Nathann has answered, I want to explore this a little more. "Just vibes" can you talk about that more? In practice there shouldn't be difference should there?

Like the feeling of his posts. There is kind of a difference in that Town wants to solve and SK wants to survive to endgame. I feel like he was SK, which I don't think he is, he would just be more passive. Aggression comes up to me as Town solving and wanting to sort, while being passive could be either SK, Mafia, or a PR. However, I'm not going to PR hunting.

@Cook VC please?
Thank you in advance.

Why are you holding on to your vote?

Also, Jacket, why the unvote?

I need a definite scumread. I currently just have loads of nullreads, who I need to sort.

You should know. Galron voted you in D6 for it. I don't want to be misread or misinterpreted. I want the truth to be revealed.

But RH9 you said you were afraid to sound ott defensive. When I voted Taly in that Ronald Reagan game, he sounded ott defensive, and he was, indeed, scum. Really if you're town you shouldn't be worrying about what you're sounding like.

Will take this advice to heart.

I...hrm. Wouldn't say any of this is great. But...

203 would be a pretty cringey thing to say to a teammate. That last post, 501, doesn't feel like something a partner says? Galron is shading RH9 and RH9 just goes "okay I will listen to you". Normally with teammate interactions there's some kind of deliberate pushback. A lot of what RH9 says is very weird, I lean toward just being wrong on a shallow meta read?

I don't know. I feel like I'm throwing darts blindfolded trying to make sense of this stuff.

[Nathann]

You got two players killed over playstyle and both flipped town. Not only were you wrong, you went after LHF and didn't let either of them claim. I refuse to believe you're town here. You don't get to fuck up this badly and hide behind "but they were policy eliminations!" without actually putting in the effort to actually try to read those slots.

I decided to read, and as predicted, it's making me hate myself. Three, is this something you seriously believe? Jacket was by far not the only person on the ADSE wagon (actually he wasn't on wagon at all, but you get my point), and the Vigilante wasn't bound to listen to him when he said to shoot Not_Mafia. How can you pin both of those deaths on Jacket?

[Nathann]

Then vote Scorpius. Look at how Day 1 ended, that was not a town-driven elimination.

I will need some serious explanation for this.

A Dreary Saturday Evening

(7) [HAMMER]: Nathann,

Cupcake Butterfly

,

RCEnigma

, RH9, Greeting, Scorpious,

Not_Mafia

Scorpious (5) [E-2]:

Galron

, Save The Dragons, Three,

A Dreary Saturday Evening

Save The Dragons (1): StrangeMatter

I coloured in the flips and the IC. Judging by your 425 (because I don't think you've said otherwise), you have a townread on both me and Greeting. Assuming you're correct, that's 5/7 people on that wagon town from your PoV, with the first 3 being town. On the contrary, the only flipped scum was firmly on the Scorpious wagon. By what logic did you come to the conclusion that the ADSE wagon was the one that was scum-driven? Or that it wasn't town-driven?

[Nathann]

Okay, I did skip a bit of the shitfighting at page 30 because I saw some lowkey personal attacks and I am very much not in the mood. I skimmed Cupcake Butterfly's ISO, not much gained from it, except for the vague wonder if it could have been a fearkill? Taly is a somewhat known player, right? Not sure who it would be a fearkill

from

, though.

My coffee is gone. I'm going for a walk. I think I like Jacket for town. Cheers.

[Scorpious]

Day starting mid day on a Sunday is tough.

Aside from my snark. I haven’t done much reading. Hoping work affords some time today.

[Scorpious]

Before I really delve, I will say this.

I was not a fan of Jacket claiming to have intent of initiating an E-1 and then just sit of abandoning the idea.
How much time were you planning on letting elapse before the vote.

I waited. Then waited again. No word from you at all. Can you explain this.?

And maybe you have but I have not read much past me being unfunny.