Holiday Dance Party ---- Game Over

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Idk the more I try to think the less confident I get

[Alyssa The Lamb]

If Ydrasse is town then I just missed or forgot something important

Realistically I should just be happy enough that 4/4 pairings I made the call on killing flipped the composition I was expecting it to but I guess I never got over the feeling like I have to carry the games where I get the flips I want

It might just be because the doubt that I'm town is there enough that I don't actually think we win if my pairing is TvT unless we win right here in 6p, although it's mostly coming from the slot that is most playing like they specifically want to be the endgame pairing (which traditionally means they're the scum)

Idk that fear is just there and idk if I'm comfortable pulling the trigger on this while that's still there

[GuiltyLion]

Still, why does he go after Ydra so blatantly? Trying to pull another T/T down or - the much less likely successful route - bussing Ydra? I think looking at his momentum in Ydra's read congruent to the suspicion of him lies the motive.

I think while S_S made his position clear that he didn't want Ydra to endgame, he didn't actually do a lot to make that actually happen. He never gave game-related content as to why he believed Ydrasse was scum, he just said she shouldn't endgame by virtue of not being NK'd.

I also remember he discouraged going after your pair when second dance

first

started:

Well, my pet theory is that the IC almost always dies if they're partnered with town.

Taly should give his thoughts on Ydrasse, of course, but I don't feel like that pair should be endgaming.

Taly should give his thoughts on Ydrasse, of course, but I don't feel like that pair should be endgaming.

Agree here. The question is if Taly should leave earlier so we can get the info from a Ydra flip, or later in the offchance this is all WIFOM and Ydra is town and we might hit scum elsewhere first

The question is if Taly should leave earlier so we can get the info from a Ydra flip, or later in the offchance this is all WIFOM and Ydra is town and we might hit scum elsewhere first

I think later because then we also get the benefit of an alive toucan.

Doesn't push it very strongly again:

After Shiro/HQ my tentative flip order would be Taly/Ydrasse -> GL/Dats -> RH9/Alyssa, I guess.

But I'm definitely willing to listen to Taly and Alyssa, my reads this game have not been super strong or super good.

and then when you later proposed that you should endgame, his responses were again, fairly muted:

Taly, I can't speak to anything that happened in the PT, but I still feel like it's pretty unlikely that the scumteam would leave your pair alive if it's T/T. That would risk you coming out with a townread on Ydrasse, which would pretty much singlehandedly lose scum the game if they didn't have a S/S pairing.

Especially since the pair that died was STD/Titus, not a universally townread pair, or even the most townread pair overall. It may be that scum really wanted Titus dead... but Titus scumread Ydrasse, so that points back to her anyway.

I don't understand any of that post honestly. I haven't tried to shut down many things other than this, and I've been pretty insistent that Ydrasse shouldn't endgame, it's not a reactive thing. I have presented my own reads, and preferred leave order, and I've said that I will defer to what Taly wants.

I am in a good position gamestate-wise, at least I hope so, so why wouldn't I want to keep it that way, regardless of my alignment?

He's not making a serious effort here to actually change your townread on Ydrasse, he's not casing her, just making a WIFOMy mech argument for why she shouldn't live. I feel like this serves the purpose of making him look good in the event that she flips scum, but without actually doing a whole lot to change anyone's minds if they are townreading her and don't want her to leave. It's not proactive play to actually get her out

[GuiltyLion]

Note: check early-game SS/Ydra interactions

I mean, I do remember SS being the original person saying never to voice a read on Ydra until intermission.

I haven't yet come across anything that made them look especially unpartnered in the first 65 pages. You're correct he was the first to say we shouldn't give reads on her:

Nobody should be talking about their read on Ydrasse from now till intermission, I think.

Which is slightly annoying because I have one.

I didn't quote this yesterday cause I don't think it's super AI, but I can definitely imagine 1313 being a post scum writes to try to disassociate from their partner, it's a little too "look at me I have a ~read~!" but again, does nothing to actually move the gamestate in any direction towards or away from her. It's an empty post

[RH9]

GL, should we wait for Ydrasse to post her promised PT summary and stuff or not?

[Ydrasse]

i am not very awake right now but here for a bit because i don't think i have a lot to add that helps

just fractured things and taking up time when maybe best to go

[GuiltyLion]

GL, should we wait for Ydrasse to post her promised PT summary and stuff or not?

as courtesy we should give her a chance for final reads/opinions in case she's town but she feels kinda resigned to me (as either alignment), and we don't want to stall too long. I'm fine with flipping her at this point

[Ydrasse]

idk if it even helps for the effort it would take

i flip flopped a lot back and forth but pushed norwee + shiro for the most part and got mad at stuff, i wanted titus + std as endgame

my solve before flip was either galron/ss or rh9/gl (this i konw i think guilty said didn't make sense but at the time i just felt like he was laughing at it a bit in like "haha wow who would think" weird way and then also rh9 focusing on gl in a way that i don't really get even if he has familiarity because he's familiar with other people here)

[Ydrasse]

i mean i'm resigned because it's just...

i'm here i'm fine with dying i don't understand why people think i would pair with the ic looking at where the scum were day 1

i don't see how it's sniping away a pair when it was only the second pair

i don't see how people think that this is... anything like my scum game at all and i got upset and i didn't want to snap at anyone anymore but i still did and it's just like

wahoo

[Ydrasse]

and i don't know who it is so at least it won't be the game losing miselim which i dont have the wim to even deal with so like, yeah im fine with it it's just frustrating as fuck regardless of being resigned

[GuiltyLion]

i don't see how people think that this is... anything like my scum game at all

what would you say is the main distinguishing factor here

[RH9]

Ydrasse, you promised 'PT stuff'. Where is it?

[Ydrasse]

i don't see how people think that this is... anything like my scum game at all

what would you say is the main distinguishing factor here

to me it's like

i'm literally doing the biggest thing someone could do if they were scum to handicap themselves and then i just fucking sit around doing nothing all game. like im good at being townread if i try to be because i know what /works/ and then i just said "fuck it no lol" this game danced and twirled some with taly said "yep ready to leave when you are boss" and did nothing but twiddle my thumbs when i could have just paired with someone else and brute forced my way to endgame with them

like yeah sure i let everyone scumread me and just sit there going yep mhm no i wont talk to you actually and just keep going hoping that im dragged along when if im scum i literally know that i am not going to die and have to like.... compensate for that

p-edit: i literally just said it's not worth the effort to me anymore and that i pushed norwee+shiro mostly

when i said my reads were bad this game i literally was townreading all three of the scum for the majority of the game

[Ydrasse]

like if you want the meta here

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=86520

this is the game where i do the things i do /the absolute best/

[Ydrasse]

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=87057

or here read this one too

[Ydrasse]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87782
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88188

like idk what else to tell you im fucking useless as town

[Ydrasse]

like yes i shouldnt be throwing a fit over being elimmed when its like yes, elim me so i dont have to beat my head against a wall but

here i am lol

[Ydrasse]

i care too muchwhen i dont want to care at all

[RH9]

like if you want the meta here

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=86520

this is the game where i do the things i do /the absolute best/

Luke mentioned that in Open 834.

[Ydrasse]

im really proud of that game

[RH9]

im really proud of that game

I don't think that any other scumteam managed to win Guardians of the Fortress since you, catboi, and unwnd did.

[Alyssa The Lamb]

Is Taly here

[GuiltyLion]

i'm literally doing the biggest thing someone could do if they were scum to handicap themselves and then i just fucking sit around doing nothing all game. like im good at being townread if i try to be because i know what /works/ and then i just said "fuck it no lol" this game danced and twirled some with taly said "yep ready to leave when you are boss" and did nothing but twiddle my thumbs when i could have just paired with someone else and brute forced my way to endgame with them

like yeah sure i let everyone scumread me and just sit there going yep mhm no i wont talk to you actually and just keep going hoping that im dragged along when if im scum i literally know that i am not going to die and have to like.... compensate for that

I dunno, which of the gentlemen do you think scum!you would have the best chance of pocketing all the way through endgame? And when Taly proposed, how would scum!you play that off if you didn't want to pair with him?

I see your point here that you haven't tried to be townread, but I feel if you're scum the plan was never for you to endgame (as soon as you paired with Taly), it was to stay alive as long as possible to keep people paranoid about other slots, pocket Taly, and give away as little info as possible as to who your partners are. Which I could see fitting your ISO/play this game.

and the last point about compensating for not dying doesn't make sense to me because if you were widely townread it would make even less sense for you to not die. the only way you not dying is explicable (if you are scum) is if it's reasonable to think scum might try to WIFOM your slot, which can only work if you've got suspicion on you already

[Ydrasse]

i'm literally doing the biggest thing someone could do if they were scum to handicap themselves and then i just fucking sit around doing nothing all game. like im good at being townread if i try to be because i know what /works/ and then i just said "fuck it no lol" this game danced and twirled some with taly said "yep ready to leave when you are boss" and did nothing but twiddle my thumbs when i could have just paired with someone else and brute forced my way to endgame with them

like yeah sure i let everyone scumread me and just sit there going yep mhm no i wont talk to you actually and just keep going hoping that im dragged along when if im scum i literally know that i am not going to die and have to like.... compensate for that

I dunno, which of the gentlemen do you think scum!you would have the best chance of pocketing all the way through endgame? And when Taly proposed, how would scum!you play that off if you didn't want to pair with him?

I see your point here that you haven't tried to be townread, but I feel if you're scum the plan was never for you to endgame (as soon as you paired with Taly), it was to stay alive as long as possible to keep people paranoid about other slots, pocket Taly, and give away as little info as possible as to who your partners are. Which I could see fitting your ISO/play this game.

and the last point about compensating for not dying doesn't make sense to me because if you were widely townread it would make even less sense for you to not die. the only way you not dying is explicable (if you are scum) is if it's reasonable to think scum might try to WIFOM your slot, which can only work if you've got suspicion on you already

idk? i feel like most people honestly if i put my heart into it i could figure out how to feed into their thoughts and push them a long, the only people i wouldn't want to pair with as scum would be datisi or std probably

and taly already knows this but i found the main thread miserable and spewed all of my thoughts into the pt. like everything was going in there because it was manageable compared to the noise and fighting and unpleasant people. he can just... confirm that i wasn't holding back anything to say the least

+ i think that with the game going as it did (like... clearly) wifom was sort of like. the best option or one of them to try and squeeze out another elim, i don't think that titus + std dying is really like a shocking moment or damning because taly literally outed "yes trust these ppl" and i think even if i was ~doin more~ it's still the best option to shut out a lot of town voices while also leaving the chance open for an elim, i dont think that titus + std were ever going to be elimmed after the flips and could have just powered through everything after

[Ydrasse]

i just like

it's fucking suicidal to not do anything and then flip and then stare at everyone like oh fuck i'm alive after taly and i sat in the pt during intermission twirling

and then like literally saying "okay i happy to leave too let me write some stuff" and then praying that ??? somehow i manage to do some miracle to have taly change his mind ????

and even if ~taly trusts me~ i still have to contend with explaining it to other people who have no reference of what i've been doing all game and get them to not just stomp over him and get me too

like it's something i can't wrap my head around people looking at that and still thinking i have done everything i have this game for the intents of helping scum win