Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Tejate Raichu]

Probably because I haven't gotten to those posts yet. I'm still scrolling down page 6 at the moment.

[Ydrasse]

Oh hell yeah, page 8 wagon on me? Let's do it.

To be honest I don't really feel like we have much game content to analyze at the moment, so hopefully that'll change as more people join the thread. At the very least I haven't really picked up anything significant (except for my very serious vote on Amazonian, as one of the hydras is guaranteed to be evil).

nothing from pages 4-6?

like whether or not the vote was silly on amazonian there has been a little speaking of the slot that isn't related to their status as hydra, so just... no thoughts?

Genuinely, no not really. I wish I had the power to generate a semi-solid read from what I am currently reading but... Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with you guys to catch anything I wouldn't with randoms. Which is to say, I have never met most of ya'll or seen your posts. Which probably means a lot of homework for me.

why would it need a lot of homework/meta?

i haven't played too much with some players here, if at all, but there's still like... some things you can look at and think "what do i think of this/what is the intent"

like to go back to your amazonian vote, guiltylion and i talked about it like... a few pages ago, briefly, how they entered the game. our /opinions/ were based on the meta/interplay between some slots, but the /interactions/ stemming from those opinions are removed from like... having to have any prior context, really. :<

i don't think anyone here expects you to know a ton of meta or even really go back and read it, maybe a link here or there might be thrown around, but i don't think the game's gonna be mired much in it.

[Ydrasse]

:< i'll give you some time but even finishing page 7 i feel like before that stuff happened...

[Tejate Raichu]

Well, I'll say this so far. I actually respect your vote on me and your reasoning. Regardless of whether or not I agree, I can see that it was most likely a town mindset that brought you to the conclusion to actually for real question my motives.

I'll put Ydrasse as town-lean.

[Ydrasse]

[Shirou]

tried to think about something more...FUN, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it.

NSG and both halves of morph are mechanics nerds, you will find safe haven for that sort of topic should you change your mind.

(potentially last post I promise)

I'm also a bit of a mechanical nerd but you see, I don't care as much about the

optimal

thing to do as much as I like having a plan that seems fun and mildly chaotic/unexpected to execute, which often makes me create silly plans that don't actually achieve anything or plans that are too swingy.

Well, but since we barely have anything to talk about at the moment, before I leave I'll mention it I guess.

I thought perhaps we should

massclaim

. Right here in D1, except with a weird and ?silly? rule:

We can lie about ours roles/night.

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Before we rolled alignments, I was thinking about how to play scum in this setup because as town it seemed simply enough to just claim actions when necessary and scum/town hunt normally. But as scum in this setup, you're gonna need to fakeclaim, and at minimum one of the scum needs to claim either cop or doctor, they can't all claim the same role no matter the setup roll.

I'm not gonna do scum job for them and explain what is sub-optimal to fakeclaim and why, but the fakeclaim you're gonna use in this game is kinda important, but even if you understand what to fakeclaim and when as scum here, the thing is what's "optimal" to fakeclaim depends on what town PRs do and what results they end up with, so basically it's very circumstantial.

As scum I would want to delay my claim here as far as possible so that I can have maximum flexibility to hopefully counter how circumstantial/swingy this setup can get.

Therefore, if we "massclaimed but you're free to lie about it", the people that lied about their roles can camouflage the people that will tell the truth, (scum have the numbers of cops/doctors but that still wouldn't tell much to them about who is lying or not), and in for their turn, the people that later confirm their role as what they initially "claimed" here are more likely than not town/telling the truth (with the caveat that the early your night action is, the "townier" it sounds). Even if scum decides to fakeclaim something here and follow up on it for the "town points"/"WIFOM", they are still gonna be locked on a claim and there's definitely "mechanical penalties" here for scum fakeclaiming early.

There's some other stuff it can do as well but if I explain that part it's quite a bit more pointless, it needs to happen naturally.

Basically, it's a "plan" that perhaps will do literally nothing positive, perhaps there's even the possibility of stuff going wrong and scum correctly identifying the ones that told the truth, but also the possibility that it'll cause they do certain mechanical mistakes which I'm trying my best to not explain in detail at the same time I try to explain the potential positive side of all this.

Hmm, basically, it's less of a "mechanical plan" and more of a silly gamble/gambit. It feels like a too serious/experienced playerlist for this to ever take off so I thought I shouldn't bother mentioning it, but here we are I guess.

[Ydrasse]

honestly i think your reaction to being wagoned (bring it on heck yeah) is either like, bravado/faux relaxation bc scum or you are confident that you'll bleed out towniness even under pressure so if that's the case i really hope that it bleeds through strong when you post thoughts :>

if it does not, pewish.

[Cephrir]

I tried to think about something more...FUN, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it. Well either way that's as far as I know for town, for scum I can imagine multiple fun gambits to do...

:townposting:

[Ydrasse]

"wagoned" being like not /really/ but the baby beginnings of one

...which begs the question then "bring on the wagon" like you were expecting it a bit which is something i don't know how to react to but WHATEVER

[Amazonian Legends]

I also know Tammy is recognized as a very strong scum hunter if I'm not mistaken...

No pressure!

I like my other heads response though

[implosion]

Oh hell yeah, page 8 wagon on me? Let's do it.

Why do you say this in response to one serious vote?

[Shirou]

actually this is important and I only realized it now so I've to ask

@catboi is voting for "no elimination" a possibility for an early day end?

[Tejate Raichu]

The "hell yeah" part was more of a humor thing, I was more just excited to see some real action going on. I really doubt a wagon is going to start on page 8, even with my limited forum mafia experience.

And I was being genuine with my latter reaction about townreading you. Obviously I disagree with the conclusion that I should be the one to get out today, but townreading isn't just about who you agree with, is it? Or were you expecting me to OMGUS?

[morph the cat]

I tried to think about something more...FUN, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it. Well either way that's as far as I know for town, for scum I can imagine multiple fun gambits to do...

:townposting:

That's the easy takeaway, the hard one is understanding the path behind 199 so por favor, step up to the NSG-whisperer stage and enlighten us.

[catboi]

actually this is important and I only realized it now so I've to ask

@catboi is voting for "no elimination" a possibility for an early day end?

Yes, no elimination is a valid vote.

[Ydrasse]

The "hell yeah" part was more of a humor thing, I was more just excited to see some real action going on. I really doubt a wagon is going to start on page 8, even with my limited forum mafia experience.

And I was being genuine with my latter reaction about townreading you. Obviously I disagree with the conclusion that I should be the one to get out today, but townreading isn't just about who you agree with, is it? Or were you expecting me to OMGUS?

i think that if you omgus'd like, i would have pushed a bit harder but been keener to back off

(hypocritical because this doesn't really apply to me, but) i think town's more likely to push back early on like "well why do you think that huh?" and have more back and forth but slotting me at a town-lean feels like the default "you're doing things that's good here's a little medal aha" hoping that i like... am content with the read enough to give you some slack?

i don't think it's like ~naughty points~ for you doing it but it's not something that gave ~good points~ either

[Amazonian Legends]

Why are you so wooden?

am i? i feel pretty loose so far!

It was interesting that you stepped into the middle of the dance, though!

you know what they say, it takes three to thrango.

Did you get anything useful from it?

maybe a tiny townread on amazons? i expect tammy to be an easy read for me anyways (despite the fact i don't really know what her scum game looks like, shh) so probably not THAT useful

I might not be as easy of a read as I used to be. General approach is the same I think, but for the most part the over emotional part isn’t there anymore.

I don’t know what my scum game looks like either and I’m pretty terrified at what it will look like.

[implosion]

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Your reasoning fails to persuade me of this :p

Everything you're describing here can be achieved if people breadcrumb well. I already have, for one.

[morph the cat]

I might not be as easy of a read as I used to be. General approach is the same I think, but for the most part the over emotional part isn’t there anymore.

I don’t know what my scum game looks like either and I’m pretty terrified at what it will look like.

Agree your new scumgame will not fit any established patterns.

I posit this game is not its maiden voyage.

[Tejate Raichu]

<snip>

...
(hypocritical because this doesn't really apply to me, but) i think town's more likely to push back early on like "well why do you think that huh?" and have more back and forth but slotting me at a town-lean feels like the default "you're doing things that's good here's a little medal aha" hoping that i like... am content with the read enough to give you some slack?
...

Perhaps it's a misplay on my part, but I felt no pressure to really hard push against it as it's still very early and I only had about 3 posts in the thread at the time. If you want to suspect me for it, be my guest, but I can assure you I am not the type of player to shirk out on posting actual game content (though I can't really point to any games to prove this point). It's just that I don't feel I have had much to post about yet.

[Amazonian Legends]

You're welcome to fake a scum read on us, but you're signing your own elim wagon the next day if so

huh?

Missed this. I'm putting BoP on morph to not misread us, and I'm saying that if they claim to scumread us and get us miselim'd, they should be the next day's elim with prejudice.

But we'll see what develops. Like you say, it's page one.

--PA

P-edit: pirate posting will be autocoted tyvm

BoP is gonna work both ways here.

I wanted to poke at this, and was waiting for you and penguin to be done, but I’ve been following along a bit while working and I think my thoughts there deflated but I’d been sitting on it to talk about it so I’m mostly posting this thought for my brain to let it go.

I also did not like fua’s first post.

[Shirou]

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Your reasoning fails to persuade me of this :p

Everything you're describing here can be achieved if people breadcrumb well. I already have, for one.

I kinda know...except not really

If I was scum I would do multiple well hidden breadcrumbs here, one for doctor, one for cop, and for multiple numbers there and here. When the time to claim came, I would simply pick the ones that favor the situation at hand the most and say "welp, that's my breadcrumb guys".

I don't pretend to believe in breadcrumbing here at all with this many experienced players, it's not possible I'm the only one that realizes how easy it is to "breadcrumb" here unless you make it obvious enough that people can notice it and be like "there's no way this

isn't

a breadcrumb, so if you claim anything else it's in fact scummy", but if you do make a breadcrumb that is too obvious/hard to wriggle away from, scum are definitely gonna notice since they know what to look for

Every townie is either a cop or doctor, and then there's a number for the night. You either make a very cryptic crumb here that only you will likely know or your crumb is probably be noticed by scum and they are either gonna kill you or act at night considering your role.

[Shirou]

but yeah

I guess breadcrumbing is simply easier/safer than whatever I proposed...it's just not really "fun"/"novel" and those are the elements I'm focusing more than necessarily "optimal"

well either way I don't plan to check if you guys breadcrumbed multiple times so I'm probably not gonna be believing any breadcrumbs if they aren't very well done.

[Cephrir]

tried to think about something more...FUN, and I kinda had a silly idea, but I felt a bit too self-conscious in this playerlist to open the game with it.

NSG and both halves of morph are mechanics nerds, you will find safe haven for that sort of topic should you change your mind.

(potentially last post I promise)

I'm also a bit of a mechanical nerd but you see, I don't care as much about the

optimal

thing to do as much as I like having a plan that seems fun and mildly chaotic/unexpected to execute, which often makes me create silly plans that don't actually achieve anything or plans that are too swingy.

Well, but since we barely have anything to talk about at the moment, before I leave I'll mention it I guess.

I thought perhaps we should

massclaim

. Right here in D1, except with a weird and ?silly? rule:

We can lie about ours roles/night.

Therefore you may end up thinking "okay, but what is the difference between doing that and nothing?", and this is my reasoning:

Before we rolled alignments, I was thinking about how to play scum in this setup because as town it seemed simply enough to just claim actions when necessary and scum/town hunt normally. But as scum in this setup, you're gonna need to fakeclaim, and at minimum one of the scum needs to claim either cop or doctor, they can't all claim the same role no matter the setup roll.

I'm not gonna do scum job for them and explain what is sub-optimal to fakeclaim and why, but the fakeclaim you're gonna use in this game is kinda important, but even if you understand what to fakeclaim and when as scum here, the thing is what's "optimal" to fakeclaim depends on what town PRs do and what results they end up with, so basically it's very circumstantial.

As scum I would want to delay my claim here as far as possible so that I can have maximum flexibility to hopefully counter how circumstantial/swingy this setup can get.

Therefore, if we "massclaimed but you're free to lie about it", the people that lied about their roles can camouflage the people that will tell the truth, (scum have the numbers of cops/doctors but that still wouldn't tell much to them about who is lying or not), and in for their turn, the people that later confirm their role as what they initially "claimed" here are more likely than not town/telling the truth (with the caveat that the early your night action is, the "townier" it sounds). Even if scum decides to fakeclaim something here and follow up on it for the "town points"/"WIFOM", they are still gonna be locked on a claim and there's definitely "mechanical penalties" here for scum fakeclaiming early.

There's some other stuff it can do as well but if I explain that part it's quite a bit more pointless, it needs to happen naturally.

Basically, it's a "plan" that perhaps will do literally nothing positive, perhaps there's even the possibility of stuff going wrong and scum correctly identifying the ones that told the truth, but also the possibility that it'll cause they do certain mechanical mistakes which I'm trying my best to not explain in detail at the same time I try to explain the potential positive side of all this.

Hmm, basically, it's less of a "mechanical plan" and more of a silly gamble/gambit. It feels like a too serious/experienced playerlist for this to ever take off so I thought I shouldn't bother mentioning it, but here we are I guess.

i still don't see how this is different from doing nothing, but you can be town for posting it

[Amazonian Legends]

It's easy to feel like helping out when you relate to someone/something huh...

Strange add-on, but I also feel pocketed so I think it’s fine.

If you feel pocketed why is it fine?