Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Tejate Raichu]

I would like to actually bring up another topic I have not seen much discussion on outside of the early posts, since it seems like discussion has mainly been focusing on a handful of specific players and their alignments.

Do you guys think that it would be to our benefit to discuss mechanics? I have some thoughts, but I'm not entirely sure if it's to town's benefit for me to share them. Don't really want to give scum hints on how to play the setup. Better yet, have any of you played this setup before?

[implosion]

There aren't a lot of mechanics in this setup that are really worth discussing; cops should claim guilties almost always and innos when relevant, we'll massclaim eventually, but for now there's not a whole lot that we can do for mech advantage.

Feel free to discuss if you have ideas, though.

[implosion]

Like, this player list has enough highly experienced and mechanically inclined players that I wouldn't worry about giving scum ideas.

[Shirou]

losing to scum!tejate sounds kinda funny

I would like to actually bring up another topic I have not seen much discussion on outside of the early posts, since it seems like discussion has mainly been focusing on a handful of specific players and their alignments.

Do you guys think that it would be to our benefit to discuss mechanics? I have some thoughts, but I'm not entirely sure if it's to town's benefit for me to share them. Don't really want to give scum hints on how to play the setup. Better yet, have any of you played this setup before?

Tejate in my opinion from town's perspective this game isn't very mech-heavy, there's not a lot for townies to do here other than if cop claim result in the day after action, and doctors of night-X claim if there's a no kill situation that same night.

Dunno who has already played this before or not. Too lazy to find out through the wiki.

[Tejate Raichu]

I suppose that's probably true, I was just thinking about how roles are most likely to be distributed/how scum are most likely going to claim in this setup. Perhaps that's a waste of time, though.

[numberQ]

@Ydrasse, I really don't think I put as much focus on Shirou as you're saying I did, until very recently when we argued over his questioning of Tejate. My "backing off" was more a function of my Ceph SR implying a Shirou TR, not as much based on my misunderstanding of his logic. And misunderstanding or no I still don't

really

see how that line of questioning could have lead him to a townlean, regardless of alignment. You're acting like I can only question my scumreads.

when i read through your iso it felt like there was a lot of questioning or like, "why do this"/"what gain from it" but it wasn't quite like a fos but sort of just... a presence. so seeing it sort of be sidelined to fit into a new narrative is ??? to me, even if it's not 'new' but like... a more forward one. if that makes sense. like. "this is the case i am sending out to people on ceph."

and i am not doing that lol

~

tbh i think some of my issue with how you treated the shirou stuff was i guess... hmm

why do you think shirou approaches solving/reading someone like that as scum if he's capable of building a narrative of like, reading through psychology/asking tejate "imagine you're this alignment, etc"? because if people see it and believe it to be genuine, i guess like...

what do you think the gain is through faking that versus a more 'traditional' questioning that could resonate more easily with people?

beyond just like "well people are townreading him now so clearly it's working"

I feel like I'm being gaslighted lmao. Did I ever actually call Shirou scum? I'm pretty sure I didn't and I just poked through my own ISO to confirm, in case I had a thought like that which I may have forgot. Doesn't look like that's the case. Even in 509 where I started to question what he was doing, it's literally just that - questioning what he's doing, because I didn't understand it and I wasn't sure what to think of it. Earlier I even gave him a tentative townlean. So unless you can point out where I ever said I SRed Shirou and it was anything other than confusion, you're just putting words in my mouth.

[Shirou]

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

[implosion]

Actually morph's reads list maybe goes so far as to sketch me out a bit? Idk it feels like... a really convenient list for scum to have. Ydrasse/nsg/redtea. Idk. The reason for scumreading nsg is so weird. Lurkiness sure, but the throwing-in-front-of-fua thing... I don't see how one finds scum-motivation in that move from nsg that she wouldn't have as town. nsg was mislimmed in my most recent game with here and I think she's the kind of player who would have a stereotypical reputation of being hard to mislim and iirc part of it was an inconsistent schedule of thread interaction though I could be misremembering, but either way I'm not really reading into her alignment from that right now. Especially when it's still <36 hours into the game, and it's been entirely during the weekend.

Both the nsg and Ydrasse reads relying on thread-avoidance is also a little wack to me because like, I personally have had a decent amount of trouble finding stuff to interact with for a good amount of this game. I think it's partially the nature of the game. Especially when like, morph themselves up until now has hidden their reads (which they normally do but it doesn't exactly facilitate thread interaction).

Like, two people they're accusing of thread avoidance and redtea who... is not exactly prolific, is all just underwhelming. And like I said I don't like the extra reason on nsg. Can't speak to the Ydrasse meta.

[implosion]

And the reason I phrase that as "sketch me out a bit?" is because morph is not someone who I would ever expect myself to be able to actually get a solid scumread on or who I really expected to have much of a solid read on in general.

[implosion]

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

Crumbing results is a bad idea unless the crumb is ridiculously obvious, because cops flip without their night so we'd have no way of knowing if a dead cop has a result.

I generally would have no issue with a cop claiming an inno in almost any situation. But if you're a cop and you have an inno, and that inno is under no pressure, and you're under little or no pressure, and you don't think you're likely to be NK'd, then it's not unreasonable to hold onto the info. Also not unreasonable to give it.

[implosion]

I suppose that's probably true, I was just thinking about how roles are most likely to be distributed/how scum are most likely going to claim in this setup. Perhaps that's a waste of time, though.

And yeah this is something that looks appealing but scum know the distribution of roles, and so there's not a whole lot that can be done to gain advantage there.

[numberQ]

innos when relevant

?

I think that cops should always claim results here, even if it's only an inno?

Everyone is 1-shot so we aren't losing anything other than "hiding them from scum kills", but like, I don't want to write a wallpost here but basically it's not really that much of an issue even if they kill the inno given it would likely be someone that is a former suspect?

Forcing an inno to get nightkilled sounds way better to me than risking someone been cleared before but no one knowing it because the cop died at a night later before saying it.

I guess we can "crumb results" but...I don't know. I think it's obvious by now but I'm not a fan of crumbing, to the point I don't bother looking for crumbs even when I'm scum.

I don't think inno results should be outed as soon as day starts, but they shouldn't be held super close to the chest. At least wait until/if that person starts getting some heat, but I don't think it needs to be held until they get to E-1 or something.

pedit: I think I'm saying the same thing implo just did

ppedit: in 634

[Shirou]

eh

if I was scum I would love that opinion of yours

being able to claim later on "oh btw I'm cop and my inno is a dead guy from ages ago" is too much of a convenient fakeclaim here

There's barely any difference between claiming innos as soon as day start, and "waiting" to claim innos for town (when you consider the risk of the cop dying without ever saying someone was cleared, in fact it sounds like a swingy strategy)

However there certainly is a lot of benefit for scum to be able to hold on claiming until later. You want to make scum claim as soon as possible in this setup in my opinion. If you leave it all for when we massclaim, scum can fakeclaim whatever is the most convenient to counter our results by then.

This is probably a take we should give our opinions on. Everyone should comment on whether they are in favor or against cops claiming the innos as soon as day start.

I'm in

favor

. I want to lock scum to their claims as soon as humanly possible.

[Amazonian Legends]

{amazons}
{Shirou}
{fua, Tejate} -- ffery thought about having fua up one, but it's probably just all the Axe fragrance wafting through the thread
--------------
the rest of you fucks
--------------
{NSG, ydrasse}

Ydrasse because she's kinda looking like she doesn't really want to be active in the thread, and because her numberq vote looked like one of those bold moves she sometimes makes as scum, like she was hurrying to be at the front of the town parade.

NSG is also giving off thread-avoidance vibes and we're still not too thrilled with the way she threw herself in front of our comment to fua. hobnail boots, etc., though it wasn't exactly a line of questioning.

If ydrasse is scum and we're not just being paranoid, then GL's easy townread there after the dancegame becomes a point of great interest.

not enough data to make an educated guess, but kinda scum-leaning tea, and kinda townleaning imaginality

I liked ydrasse's thread presence yesterday, and I liked that at two times - with tejate and nq - she voted just as I was thinking they were suspicious. That's a terrible take I know, but I still liked it. I know she's started posting more now, but I have a headache and I'm going to bed, so reading that other than a skim will have to wait. Vacation is over, so I need to get back on a schedule.

Both heads are suspicious of nsg. Penguin doesn't like that she said the thing about holding off on posting and then didn't post herself. That doesn't bother me so much as I didn't like the post itself, and the interactions with you regarding fua felt wrong. Like it felt like a wrist slap rather than an actual defense or figuring you out. I pondered that it was a scum/scum conversation over fua because something didn't sit right. It just didn't feel like town talking to someone whose alignment she didn't know. I was hoping there'd be more today to see if I was chasing shadows here.

Anyway, I'm going to bed. Might follow along and post again if I can't sleep, but hopefully you don't see me until tomorrow. Don't think Penguin is going to get a chance to post tonight.

[Tejate Raichu]

Seems like maybe it wasn't entirely a wasteful choice of topic. I'm in favor of cops claiming results immediately and docs claiming results upon no night kill.

[Shirou]

Okay I'll trust scum is probably good enough to have noticed this already so I'll explain a bit more my reasoning

Doctors are the easiest fakeclaim here. You can say you acted on a random night early on and there's no consequences to it.

If you claim cop as scum as you're opening a day, you *need* to either innocent someone alive, or fake a guilty on someone (which is basically a 1v1 trade), or to claim an inno on a partner which can lead to both you and the partner being found guilty at once later on.

There's a 66% chance, in other words it's more likely than not likely, that only one or zero of the scum can claim doctor without we knowing there's confirmed scum in that given pool on massclaim. So some of them likely need to claim cop.

Therefore, we should make it as risky as possible for they to claim cop, and the way we do that is

everyone agreeing that cops need to claim any results right on day start.

[Cephrir]

i think this is a good plan but await a counterargument

[fua]

I actually agree with Shirou's analysis. That's a good plan.

[Tejate Raichu]

Okay I'll trust scum is probably good enough to have noticed this already so I'll explain a bit more my reasoning

Doctors are the easiest fakeclaim here. You can say you acted on a random night early on and there's no consequences to it.

If you claim cop as scum as you're opening a day, you *need* to either innocent someone alive, or fake a guilty on someone (which is basically a 1v1 trade), or to claim an inno on a partner which can lead to both you and the partner being found guilty at once later on.

There's a 66% chance, in other words it's more likely than not likely, that only one or zero of the scum can claim doctor without we knowing there's confirmed scum in that given pool on massclaim. So some of them likely need to claim cop.

Therefore, we should make it as risky as possible for they to claim cop, and the way we do that is

everyone agreeing that cops need to claim any results right on day start.

This is actually pretty much exactly what I was going to say before I hesitated. Doc is the weaker claim here, and if we look at all of the possible role lists 2/3rds of the time I think scum will generally want to try and balance out the numbers so it isn't too obvious which one scum are hiding in. The best they can do is 6-7 in terms of doc claims vs cop claims, and given that doc is the weaker claim I feel scum is more likely to claim cop where possible. For instance, if we're in the setup with only 4 cops, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad idea for all 3 to claim cop. This rounds out the numbers and leaves none of them claiming doctor. In the 5-5 setup I see it being likely that the odd scum out would lean towards choosing cop. We should try and push them to ideally not round out to 6-7.

[fua]

Good idea. I claim cop.

[Cephrir]

wait that's not what the plan was

[Shirou]

Correct Tejate, I didn't want to explain *that* point as well but yes.

If we make the cops claim riskier, they need to choose between taking that extra risk/penalty to try rounding up to 6-7 or to give us the information that there's at least 2 confirmed scums in a given role pool (likely doctor if it ever happens).

It's a lot less about "oh but what if the cop dies and etc" and a lot more "we should force scum to take as much penalties/risk as possible for their fakeclaims"

p-edit: kkkkkk lol, fua is simply trolling I believe, don't worry ceph.

[fua]

Actually why

not

just massclaim now? We don't even have to say what night they work on-- just our roles themselves. We instantly narrow down at least one scum in a group through that alone.

[fua]

Oh no, I'm actually a cop. I just want to take away claim space.

[Shirou]

but yeah just in case someone takes it seriously

the plan isn't to claim cop or doctor today

it's to claim results as a cop after the night you acted on, so if you're a night-1 cop for example, you claim your result [guilty/inno] on the start of D2.