Newbie 2086 - Reaction GIFs | End!

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-2

Not Voting

(5): Dunnstral, ɀefiend, catboi, Cape90, butterchurn

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 18, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[catboi]

Your vote was on V0ID for a long time so saying you didn't get a chance to refocus is not true

I made that post and was given literally 0 opportunity to discuss it with anyone because of you

If you had an issue with me voting for void over you based on that post why would you not say it then?

[Dunnstral]

I thought v0id was scum and you weren't on day 2

[catboi]

Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of. It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim.

I don't see why this thought would only become relevant after you hammered void.

[butterchurn]

Read some more past games on dunn and catboi, probably should have done that earlier. Was somewhat hesitant on being suspicious of catboi mostly because a lot of tone things have felt town to me, but I see now that while he does have a similar feel as town, he is perfectly capable of recreating that as scum. With dunn, results were similarly inconclusive. General behavior seems in character for either role, didn't feel like there were any strong markers in either direction.

I also thought that scum catboi killing notscience after 194 would be kinda bold, and yesterDay I was waiting to see if someone would try to use it as a reason for suspicion (since I definitely don't think it is a fair reason for suspicion). After reading a scum game I wouldn't necessarily put it past him though, and it most likely was just a rolehunt kill regardless, so it's probably irrelevant. Still a little surprised nobody ever even brought it up, though, since it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the notscience death.

please explain why I ever nightkill greeting

A team of you/zefiend could easily kill Greeting -- he was likely leaning Dunn, but he had both of you as secondary suspicions at some point in the previous day. I don't think it's the best kill option, but I don't particularly think it's the best kill option for any team, and I also think that pairing could get away with killing almost anyone since imo it would be very hard for you to lose.

[butterchurn]

Unsure about Dunn's first post toDay, 616. From what I've seen in previous games, he seems to generally tend to engage directly with whoever he is talking about. In this, it feels more like he is talking past catboi, and the post just really feels way more like an appeal to the town than what I'm used to seeing from him, which felt a little bit off to me. Doesn't quite feel natural. Gonna have to look more closely at his endgame behavior in previous games.

Don't know. Going to bed, would strongly prefer the game doesn't end while I'm asleep.

[Dunnstral]

Unsure about Dunn's first post toDay, 616. From what I've seen in previous games, he seems to generally tend to engage directly with whoever he is talking about. In this, it feels more like he is talking past catboi, and the post just really feels way more like an appeal to the town than what I'm used to seeing from him, which felt a little bit off to me. Doesn't quite feel natural. Gonna have to look more closely at his endgame behavior in previous games.

Don't know. Going to bed, would strongly prefer the game doesn't end while I'm asleep.

That's because we are in limlo and I think catboi is mafia, and so I won't be able to convince them of anything by talking to them directly.

[Dunnstral]

So yes, I'm trying to convince other people that catboi is mafia, not attempting to debate with them

[ɀefiend]

Wtf, seriously? First of all, how the hell did greeting flip town after that awful VOID vote? Second, Dunn's hammer is scummy as hell and I'd snap vote him IF the 3rd of all thing: why kill Greeting? I don't understand this NK at all and it makes me paranoid of ALL Y'ALL.

I skimmed entrances today and butter's rapid-fire power-posting has me nervous as hell. Almost like a shark smelling blood in the water. Butter accusing Greeting of making an early entrance post to "size the conversation" on D2 is giving me

je ne sais quoi

tingles.

Cape is acting nonchalant about everything and to be quite honest I'm least paranoid of him now. I don't even know why. The greeting kill is just weird and I need to do a deep NK analysis to figure it out.

Catboi FOR SURE was gonna die last night, except nope I was wrong about that too.

And then there's Dunn, scummy as hell but almost TOO scummy, if he's not scum he's the easiest ML scum could ever make.

PLEASE don't vote until everyone's voiced their initial reads and claims; I need to reread basically the whole game now with the information that Greeting was town.

Also yes whoever mentioned it, we should all claim: I'm a VT.

[catboi]

Claims aren't really terribly meaningful here but I don't oppose them happening.

I will be voting Dunn eventually.

[catboi]

Everyone's entrances to the day look scummy to me lol

[ɀefiend]

Let me parse this in-thread:

If you and Dunn cross, and Cape+butter are scum, then we lose.

If Cape+butter were scum, would they kill Greeting? I find it quite unlikely. Because, they would know me and Greeting are TvT, and Dunn is universally scum-read. Meaning a kill on Catboi is an easy win for them. Counterpoint: if catboi had died and Greeting had lived, would Greeting have reconsidered this? Would I? I don't think I would have, but obviously I don't know how to read Greeting.

Therefore, if I discount Cape+butter, and I discount catboi+Dunn (no reason to consider this today if this is the inevitable cross), then I have:

> catboi+cape
They needed either: (1)Butter to vote me or Dunn (likely), (2)me to vote Butter or Dunn (half likely as of end of D2), or (3) Dunn to vote me or Butter (seems unlikely) - so after a catboi/Dunn cross, (1) and (2) both apply

> catboi+butter
They needed either: (1)Dunn to vote me or Cape (idk), (2)me to vote Dunn or cape (probable), (3)Cape to vote me or Dunn (probable) - so after the cross, (2) and (3) apply

> Dunn+cape
They needed either: (1)Butter to vote me or catboi (idk, half likely?), (2)me to vote butter or catboi (improbable), (3)catboi to vote me or butter (half to full probable?) - so after the cross, NONE apply

> Dunn+butter
They needed either: (1)catboi to vote me or cape (idk, half likely?), (2)me to vote catboi or cape (half likely), (3)cape to vote me or catboi (at least half likely?) - after the cross, NONE to maybe half of one applies.

---

So all this means that based on Greeting kill and current game-state attitude, catboi is most likely to be scum. (if I assume scum killed for easiest/helpful LiLo today)

This is my mind's work. But my gut tells me that I'm horribly, horribly wrong. Catboi, please show me where I'm wrong and prove my gut right.

[catboi]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel. Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from your POV.

[ɀefiend]

Sure, but FMPOV

every team

wouldn't kill me or Greeting if they believed I would lock-vote Greeting. But because Greeting is dead, I have to reevaluate.

[Cape90]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel.

Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill

. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from

your

POV.

A free vote, when literally nobody is voting ze. But now it is a gamethrow of a kill? What are you saying you and zefiend are mafia? what? Excuse me, do you know ze's POV? ze could be either of town or mafia.

I have many questions after reading this

[catboi]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel.

Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill

. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from

your

POV.

A free vote, when literally nobody is voting ze. But now it is a gamethrow of a kill? What are you saying you and zefiend are mafia? what? Excuse me, do you know ze's POV? ze could be either of town or mafia.

I have many questions after reading this

I am writing that statement addressing him. When I say "from your POV" I am obviously speaking from a perspective that assumes the person is town, because addressing things from someone's point of view if mafia is obviously pointless. I don' know if he's town but I have to critique his ideas as though he were.

I'm...somewhat surprised you don't understand the language here? I don't think it's that atypical.

[butterchurn]

This same chain of reasoning is why I had trouble seeing a greeting kill from any scumteam that did not include zefiend. It's throwing away a free TvT vote otherwise. And catboi's post on it seems fine to me, cape.

Also, I don't really understand the logic behind there being any information to gain out of everyone claiming (in this specific situation), but I also can't see how it could hurt, so... VT here.

[Cape90]

I feel like Dunn if they were mafia would probably go after me today and not catboi in 616.

"Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of.

It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim

."

I am confused by this excerpt in the bolded/red. If you are town Dunn, you literally

are

a miselim as well so bringing up the V0id thing is kinda ?

Do you think that catboi is not pushing butterchurn because they think butter is unelimable?

To be completely fair 617 is a good ol scumpoint for catboi

[Cape90]

If you are town I literally never kill greeting here, because you would be a free vote on him that would win the game for me because of your tunnel.

Would be an outright gamethrow of a kill

. That's to say nothing of the fact that even if you did somehow re-evaluate and decide he was town, Greeting was most reliably on my side out of anyone. Completely absurd to think I make that kill from

your

POV.

A free vote, when literally nobody is voting ze. But now it is a gamethrow of a kill? What are you saying you and zefiend are mafia? what? Excuse me, do you know ze's POV? ze could be either of town or mafia.

I have many questions after reading this

I am writing that statement addressing him. When I say "from your POV" I am obviously speaking from a perspective that assumes the person is town, because addressing things from someone's point of view if mafia is obviously pointless. I don' know if he's town but I have to critique his ideas as though he were.

I'm...somewhat surprised you don't understand the language here? I don't think it's that atypical.

oh. I just woke up so... Yeah I understand what you are saying.

[Cape90]

I am VT

[Cape90]

Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of. It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim.

I don't see why this thought would only become relevant after you hammered void.

Dunn kinda dodged this but I don't see here why this thought wouldn't be relevant. This is a pretty silly comment, it's called, they probably looked back after V0id flipped town and were trying to solve from there who is actually mafia with this knowledge. They probably glossed over this detail until after the flip on V0id. Yes I am aware this is a sort of motivation of either alignment, if they are mafia, this would simply have different framing.

[butterchurn]

This is not a major thing, but it was on my mind for a while, so I might as well post about it. Once we saw we were in column A or C due to cop flip, and both of those have masons, I thought that there was no reason for scum to doubt the mason claim from NK15 -- if zefiend is town, it just looks like a normal mason claim to them. catboi had notable reservations about it (325). For a while I had this as a point in the town!catboi column, since it is perfectly reasonable for him to have hesitations about the claim (especially since he recently played in a game with a town fakeclaiming mason), and the post reads fairly town-aligned regardless. I forgot to keep in mind the one other possibility, though -- if catboi were scum partners with zefiend, he would know for sure that the claim was fake. Since this is one of the main teams I'm considering, I think it's worth posting about. This doesn't necessarily add to suspicion of catboi for me, but it does take away one of the reasons why I thought the puzzle pieces for scum!catboi didn't quite fit.

[Cape90]

According to 409 I would say that catboi's townreads and suspicions are fairly diverse in the favor of them being town. Also as scum, they don't really have a good reason to not be suspecting me or Greeting as so many people were doing so and V0id was dancing around the idea of suspecting me and catboi said both me/Greeting were town. I am not too terribly sure that mafia has a POE like that FMPOV

[catboi]

I feel like Dunn if they were mafia would probably go after me today and not catboi in 616.

That is entirely fallacious. It's very likely if he's mafia he expects me to vote for him no matter what here and as such I am easier to persuade people against than you.

Do you think that catboi is not pushing butterchurn because they think butter is unelimable?

If I had felt him unelimable, why wouldn't I nightkill him? The thought is absurd.

To be completely fair 617 is a good ol scumpoint for catboi

I've played enough wuith dunn to know the arguments he's pushing are crap.

Yesterday, they had 5 potential pairings, and I was in 3 of them. V0id is only listed as a part of two pairings, one of which I was also a part of. It technically makes a lot of sense for Catboi to have pushed for me yesterday, but instead they kept their vote on V0id who ended up being a miselim.

I don't see why this thought would only become relevant after you hammered void.

Dunn kinda dodged this but I don't see here why this thought wouldn't be relevant. This is a pretty silly comment, it's called, they probably looked back after V0id flipped town and were trying to solve from there who is actually mafia with this knowledge. They probably glossed over this detail until after the flip on V0id. Yes I am aware this is a sort of motivation of either alignment, if they are mafia, this would simply have different framing.

But he didn't frame it that way, and to not have thought about that at all seems entirely ridiculous, like what, he's just not thinking critically at all?

With the amount of water you're carrying for Dunn you'd think his house was on fire. I don't particularly think it makes you scum here, it's just incredibly annoying.

[butterchurn]

If I had felt him unelimable, why wouldn't I nightkill him? The thought is absurd.

I don't see why you would have any need to nightkill me if I were on the wrong track (and in situations here where you are mafia, I was on the wrong track prior to last Night). A townie going in the wrong direction in endgame is very useful to mafia.