Newbie 2086 - Reaction GIFs | End!

[butterchurn]

The part about dunn? That was a pretty minor point in the post, and I was just pointing out that I found your tone shift over time in your interactions with him to be surprising when I read everything at once. In real time nothing felt out of place, but when I trace the evolution of your thoughts, I don't see that strong of a basis for your suspicion, and I would expect there to be one for you to have the attitude towards him that you do now. You really don't even flip the switch that hard until after he makes the case on you.

[butterchurn]

I find these situations irritating as town and I have an inherent bias against people who write a lot of words because I always feel like it's done for the purpose of being showy, regarrdless of whether not it actually ends up being the case. Don't take it personally.
I feel like you're either minimizing or not really making steps to understand my reasoning for seeing Dunn as scum.

I really would appreciate a more thorough explanation of your suspicion for Dunn, and where it started. I think that would help.

[catboi]

I should say: conventional wisdom in this situation is to re-read and re-evaluate, that's the standard spiel that gets tossed out all the time. You're in ELO for a reason, if you had the right reads you wouldn't be here, etc etc.

It doesn't really work. At least not in my experience. The more I reread the worse my accuracy becomes. That's why I'm sticking to my first impulse of Dunn-scum. If it's wrong, that sucks but I can live with it.


In general I think a lot of people could stand to recheck their assumptions at endgame, as I feel like too few do and they sleepwalk into the wrong vote. But do as I say, not as I do, I suppose.

[catboi]

I find these situations irritating as town and I have an inherent bias against people who write a lot of words because I always feel like it's done for the purpose of being showy, regarrdless of whether not it actually ends up being the case. Don't take it personally.
I feel like you're either minimizing or not really making steps to understand my reasoning for seeing Dunn as scum.

I really would appreciate a more thorough explanation of your suspicion for Dunn, and where it started. I think that would help.

If I haven't lost the game I'll try to explain it.

[butterchurn]

Personally, I already think one of you or dunn is scum, so I'm going to continue as if the game isn't lost.

These are all of your opinions on the slot:

• - 220: "GB flaking is disappointing given he's been around to post elsewhere but from what I know he's a lower activity player as both alignments so not particularly damning"
  - 268: "A part of me says Dunnstral doesn't enter a newbie game and immediately E-1 someone as scum because that'd be bad optics, although that's a weak feeling"
  - 292: "murky level of uncertain" (along with most of the players)
  - 374: "Greeting/Cape town, butter weaker town, scum in void/dunn/zefiend." (given previous posting, I don't know how to read this in any way other than POE)
  - 387: Asking him to explain why he disagrees with your reads
  - 388: Clarifying a statement you made that he disagreed with
  - 423: He made a fair point
  - 426: "In my experience he tends to try harder to project being town when he's mafia. If this weren't a newbie game I'd probably be scumreading him, but as it is I'm still iffy because I'd expect him to try to be a bit more transparent in a newbie game."
  - 503: Asking him to explain why he found cape scummy
  - 526: Asking again
  - 539: "He's read me well in a previous game and often doesn't explain things, but yes, that sort of post can easily come from him as scum." and "I mean, hmm. I don't see why him expressing disagreement with my reads is a scumtell necessarily, he can do tat as town. I would say that nothing he's done has blown me away with townieness and I could easily see him being scum here still." (responding to cape)
  - 564: Various comments in the pairings post, mostly that the dunn teams are not implausible
  - 586: "I think this is somewhat unideal but I would have pushed for a hammer regardless of claim." (first reaction to dunn's hammer)
  - 595: "My initial impression is that Dunn is very likely scum off that hammer and in general I don't think his play has been town. If I had to vote at this very instant in time, that's where it'd go."
  - 599: "Absolutely why" (when I express a townlean on Dunn)
  - 602: "I also just think there's been very little to townread in his play overall"
  - 617: "lol ok dunn" (after he makes a case on you)

To me, that looks like things escalate pretty quickly once toDay starts, and that there wasn't really ever much of a basis for suspicion to begin with, at least not one that was at all well-explained. The hammer didn't seem to appear that suspicious to you immediately, but that's understandable since you were leading the push on void, but when the next day started you never really talked about WHY you find it so suspicious. I definitely agree it was strange play, but to go from "eh he hasn't not done anything towny", "him being scum is not implausible", what looks like POE, etc., to treating him as if you have no doubt he's scum is something that I feel like should merit at least a little more explanation.

[butterchurn]

By the way, no idea when cape will check the thread next since he seems to disappear for chunks of time, but @cape if you're town I'm pretty sure it's correct play regardless of your suspicions here to not vote Dunn right away. Same goes for zefiend, I guess, as much as I doubt him being town? I'm not an endgame mechanics expert by any means, but that seems logical to me. We can at least wait and see if the game is over or not, because then we have more information.

[Cape90]

By the way, no idea when cape will check the thread next since he seems to disappear for chunks of time, but @cape if you're town I'm pretty sure it's correct play regardless of your suspicions here to not vote Dunn right away. Same goes for zefiend, I guess, as much as I doubt him being town? I'm not an endgame mechanics expert by any means, but that seems logical to me. We can at least wait and see if the game is over or not, because then we have more information.

Yeah you are right I should vote Dunn right away! Thanks for the tip!

Trust me after Newbie 2084, I will avoid plays like that.

Obviously one of catboi/dunn are mafia here. Every second this day ticks by, I am starting to lean a bit towards it being catboi

[Cape90]

zefiend calling out catboi to specifically ask how he feels about the game state is weird, but feels too obvious to me (then again, if zefiend is scum, I think he's done several obviously strange things, so maybe he wouldn't see an issue with it, although I imagine catboi would not be very appreciative of it if they were indeed partners), and his interactions with catboi early don't feel that scum-partner-y to me.

could you point towards where this comes from?

[butterchurn]

Hey, just making sure. You never know what people will do.

End of post 54. Sorry, I got lazy about linking every single thing I referenced, if you need any others I can pull them up.

[Cape90]

I don't have the time or motivation at present to address all of zefiend's arguments against greeting but I will just say that being illogical and at times inconsistent in reasoning is not a scumtell, and zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways.

I have seen comments like this addressed from scum to town.

"zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways."

This sort of quasi defending of zefiend's thought process strikes me as really strange to me and makes me feel like catboi has more information on zefiend as they let on. I had this thought while continuing to read 667

[Cape90]

Dunn's vote on cape feels kinda random, as he has previously expressed suspicions of void and Greeting, both of whom have votes already.

I don't feel this way at all on Dunns' push on me as he talked about me a whole lot in detail, meanwhile the V0id thing was like 2 posts and only one of those addressed V0id by name

[Cape90]

I've played enough wuith dunn to know the arguments he's pushing are crap.

I believe that this stance is made-up and cannot be supported.

catboi might as well avoid this comment we really got them on the ropes Dunn

[Cape90]

@Catboi, obligatory thoughts on all this. We have 8, 9? days to poke GB and the other lurkers. I want you to get in now while the getting's good.

Okay cool I got the silly openwolving out of my system, be sure to push me on that wolves! On 54 I have no comment about what to think about this random ping at the end of this post, but I wouldn't call it unpartnery, just flat out strange and feels like it needs a bit of context when there is less then I thought on just pinging this one random person for their opinions of this post.

[butterchurn]

I don't feel this way at all on Dunns' push on me as he talked about me a whole lot in detail, meanwhile the V0id thing was like 2 posts and only one of those addressed V0id by name

Random purely from a voting standpoint when looking at a possible dunn/zefiend pairing and where other votes currently were. I think it's a fairly reasonable/consistent vote if he's town.

[fferyllt]

Vote Count 3-3

Dunnstral

(1): catboi

Not Voting

(4): Cape90, ɀefiend, Dunnstral, butterchurn

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to eliminate.

Deadline: January 18, Midnight US Eastern Time.

Countdown: (expired on 2022-01-17 21:00:00)

Mod Notes:

-

[Dunnstral]

VOTE: catboi

[catboi]

cape/butter ruled out provides some measure of relief. Will get to responding to things now.

[catboi]

Personally, I already think one of you or dunn is scum, so I'm going to continue as if the game isn't lost.

These are all of your opinions on the slot:

• - 220: "GB flaking is disappointing given he's been around to post elsewhere but from what I know he's a lower activity player as both alignments so not particularly damning"
  - 268: "A part of me says Dunnstral doesn't enter a newbie game and immediately E-1 someone as scum because that'd be bad optics, although that's a weak feeling"
  - 292: "murky level of uncertain" (along with most of the players)
  - 374: "Greeting/Cape town, butter weaker town, scum in void/dunn/zefiend." (given previous posting, I don't know how to read this in any way other than POE)
  - 387: Asking him to explain why he disagrees with your reads
  - 388: Clarifying a statement you made that he disagreed with
  - 423: He made a fair point
  - 426: "In my experience he tends to try harder to project being town when he's mafia. If this weren't a newbie game I'd probably be scumreading him, but as it is I'm still iffy because I'd expect him to try to be a bit more transparent in a newbie game."
  - 503: Asking him to explain why he found cape scummy
  - 526: Asking again
  - 539: "He's read me well in a previous game and often doesn't explain things, but yes, that sort of post can easily come from him as scum." and "I mean, hmm. I don't see why him expressing disagreement with my reads is a scumtell necessarily, he can do tat as town. I would say that nothing he's done has blown me away with townieness and I could easily see him being scum here still." (responding to cape)
  - 564: Various comments in the pairings post, mostly that the dunn teams are not implausible
  - 586: "I think this is somewhat unideal but I would have pushed for a hammer regardless of claim." (first reaction to dunn's hammer)
  - 595: "My initial impression is that Dunn is very likely scum off that hammer and in general I don't think his play has been town. If I had to vote at this very instant in time, that's where it'd go."
  - 599: "Absolutely why" (when I express a townlean on Dunn)
  - 602: "I also just think there's been very little to townread in his play overall"
  - 617: "lol ok dunn" (after he makes a case on you)

To me, that looks like things escalate pretty quickly once toDay starts, and that there wasn't really ever much of a basis for suspicion to begin with, at least not one that was at all well-explained. The hammer didn't seem to appear that suspicious to you immediately, but that's understandable since you were leading the push on void, but when the next day started you never really talked about WHY you find it so suspicious. I definitely agree it was strange play, but to go from "eh he hasn't not done anything towny", "him being scum is not implausible", what looks like POE, etc., to treating him as if you have no doubt he's scum is something that I feel like should merit at least a little more explanation.

Is it really not all that well explained? I had him as a POE slot from day 2 and never wavered from there, thought his hammer was scum motivated, and then he opened the day with a case on me with atrocious reasoning that was effectively a scumclaim to me. No, I didn't call out the hammer in the immediate aftermath because at that time in the immediate aftermath it could have easily been a scum flip, and it only really was scummy in my eyes on a townflip.

But still, my thinking was towards a POE on day 2 and literally nothing happened to change my mind. Why the hell are you acting like this was out of nowhere?

[catboi]

By the way, no idea when cape will check the thread next since he seems to disappear for chunks of time, but @cape if you're town I'm pretty sure it's correct play regardless of your suspicions here to not vote Dunn right away. Same goes for zefiend, I guess, as much as I doubt him being town? I'm not an endgame mechanics expert by any means, but that seems logical to me. We can at least wait and see if the game is over or not, because then we have more information.

Yeah you are right I should vote Dunn right away! Thanks for the tip!

Trust me after Newbie 2084, I will avoid plays like that.

Obviously one of catboi/dunn are mafia here. Every second this day ticks by, I am starting to lean a bit towards it being catboi

Okay, why?

I don't have the time or motivation at present to address all of zefiend's arguments against greeting but I will just say that being illogical and at times inconsistent in reasoning is not a scumtell, and zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways.

I have seen comments like this addressed from scum to town.

"zefiend overly nitpicky and inflexible in his thinking. Scum can play that archetype but if I had to guess at that moment I'd say he's town, just a bit set in his ways."

This sort of quasi defending of zefiend's thought process strikes me as really strange to me and makes me feel like catboi has more information on zefiend as they let on. I had this thought while continuing to read 667

Why does someone writing a similar sounding post as scum make me more likely to be scum? That's an incredibly silly way of thinking. The game isn't played by everyone making posts in neat little shapes and one post is a town shape no matter who it comes from and one is a scum shape. Oftentimes scum make posts that are imitating ones people make as town, anyway.

My thinking at the time was that zefiend's case on greeting was very bad in its reasoning (and surprise, it was!). But the thing is,

townies have bad thought processes all the time

. Part of the game is recognizing that fact and trying to assess whether another player really believes what they are saying. At the time, I felt his conviction in the read was sincere. As the day dragged on, I began to waver in that belief.

What is actually "really strange" about disagreeing with someone's thought process but thinking they could be town regardless?

That's a fundamental part of the game.

If you think that post implies zefiend is town, who is my partner supposed to be, exactly?

[catboi]

I've played enough wuith dunn to know the arguments he's pushing are crap.

I believe that this stance is made-up and cannot be supported.

catboi might as well avoid this comment we really got them on the ropes Dunn

I'm not sure what you actually want me to address in that comment?

[ɀefiend]

Earlier you said if I'm scum the Greeting kill doesn't make sense unless I was planning to bus.

I did not. I said that about Dunn. Very interesting that you mixed those up, though. Since before the kill even came in, I thought that only teams with you on them would kill Greeting. The change in opinion that I've had is that I see it could be possible for Dunn to be scum (specifically, with you), where previously I thought the kill only made sense if he were town.

2) Do you think scum!me spends an entire day pushing Greeting instead of lazy sheeping on VOID, only to lazy-kill Greeting the following night?

Yes, obviously I do. I think Greeting is a bit of a weird kill no matter who the scumteam is, but clearly

someone

thought it was the best choice, and I think any team without you on it would be much less likely to opt for that route.

This is all post-hoc rationalization. I 1000% do not kill Greeting last night if I'm scum.

Your focus on me today is very telling.

I do not suspect Cape will hand me the hammer, but im not ready to hand it to him either yet. I want to be able to figure out if a bus is occuring. And, like all game, butter is hedging their bets and opinions to be opportune.

[catboi]

Further, butterchurn, why does my read on Dunn escalating today make me more likely to be scum? Why can't that be an organic thought process? I had him as a suspect for a big part of yesterday, my primary read was wrong, he moved to occupy the spot of most likely scum in my mind. Dunn literally didn't suspect me at all before today and sheeped my vote, then came out the gates with a case on me. Your only engagement with it is to say he's "talking past" me in 630, but never actually address the substance of his argument at all.

[Dunnstral]

For the record, I do not care terribly much about finding a team solve. I have one vote today and will use it on the person I think is most likely to be scum.

I don't care about solving for the exact team, Dunn. I never see it lead to good results and it never works for me, so I'm not going to bother with it.

If you think that post implies zefiend is town, who is my partner supposed to be, exactly?

So catboi has been avoiding giving opinions on anyone other than myself this day phase by saying he doesn't care what the team is. This would be reasonable if we weren't in limlo right now, but it's not since we are and we need to figure things out. catboi is avoiding interacting with the rest of the players for three possible reasons, to avoid giving associative information, to avoid voting out their partner today (they were forcing the 1v1 with me really hard too and voted me pretty fast), and to avoid 'angering' any of the townies by suspecting them, weakening his own standing.

When it comes to reads on his own slot, you better believe that he's asking for a team solve, though.

[catboi]

I am going to question the reasoning of others and how they apply even if their approach differs from how I'm approaching the day. My goal in doing so is to try to understand and critique their logic. Cape very specifically gave a conditional of me-scum, zefiend-town, so I want to know who he possibly thinks I'm teamed with in that scenario.


And for the record, I am forming reads based off talking to people but reserve the to not commit to an exact answer at this point in time. My focus is on getting step 1 right. But asking questions and interacting is how I plan to figure things out.

I mean, it's not like you're really committing to an answer, either - you've left the possibilities as me/cape and me/zefiend, and have taken basically ~no steps to figure things out.

[catboi]

Also, I am literally interacting with everyone right now, so the idea that I'm afraid of "giving associative information" is patently false