Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Shirou]

In fact this is almost exactly the same shit you pulled last time I played with you as scum when you tried to defend your buddy shaddowez

That was a horrible scum game of mine GL. In fact, it was my

first

ever scum game, roughly 3 years ago.

You need to decide whether you think I'm some skilled scum player like NSG is saying or if I'm still newbie scum that needs to openly defend their partners like that rather than doing counterwagons, theatre with the other buddy as distraction, or in summary any other more intelligent tactic.

What NSG is telling you about me and how you're implying you're considering my potential scum game are complete opposites.

[Shirou]

This isn't true, I legitimately scumread pretty much every redtea post and when I asked you which you townread and why, you have failed to answer. I'll go into it in more depth later when I'm not working and I have time, but acting like there isn't anything indicative in redteas play is badbadbad

is it going to be "they aren't solving the game so they are scum" style of scum pings/"reasons"?

if it is sorry I don't think that it will work on reading redtea at the moment with the amount of posts they have.

I can be wrong sure, but I don't think I'm though.

[Ydrasse]

the last time i played with redtea i got them killed because i found them... weird and scummy but they were also doing more in that game tbh than this one

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=88025&user_select%5B%5D=32261

[Shirou]

I don't think I've ever defended a partner so adamantly like that ever since that game. I learnt my lesson there. In Baton Pass I tried to town read S_S that was relatively town lean by part of the playerlist, but as soon as I felt suspicious was gathering around them, I bussed him.

In C9+++ when Wicked was about to have a wagon started on them I also had a much better solution: I lead the wagon on him myself, and since I was the one leading it and flaming on it, since I started relatively early on the day (as we are now), I made everyone exhausted of hearing the same old arguments from me, so both my other partner and I later on would go and switch to a "new suspect", and people naturally did switch as well since they were already tired of the wagon on correct scum. Town often have short memory & patience.

This start of a wagon right now has no real threat to lead to a redtea elimination yet. There's no real reason to even defend him like this except for bad WIFOM.

Then I ask you this GL and anyone with similar doubts? Are you taking NSG's words at face value?

If you think I'm that good as scum, surely this is very likely not a defense on a buddy, at most white knight attempt for some town cred later.

Or you didn't really think much of what NSG said before about my skill as scum and you think that this can easily be a me/redtea scum team and I'm simply making a sloppy play here?

[Shirou]

the last time i played with redtea i got them killed because i found them... weird and scummy but they were also doing more in that game tbh than this one

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=88025&user_select%5B%5D=32261

yeah I've already read that game

[Ydrasse]

0_0

[Shirou]

0_0

I-I'm not stalking people okay?

It's r-research

[fua]

Sloppy doppy…

[Tejate Raichu]

Good morning, I can see that my wagon against nQ is just as uninspiring as it was last night apparently. I kind of figured that'd probably happen.

On the subject of redtea, I agree with others that their few content posts do seem scummy to me, but I'm willing to re-evaluate once they catchup. There's no denying that there is quite a lot to read.

[implosion]

implosion seems to be relying a bit on "well my D1 reads are junk" to justify not efforting hard today. I didn't like the sequence of posts from 906 to 908:

I'd say this is a mischaracterization - I'm putting in plenty of effort. I'm just not putting in effort to fully sort the game because I think my efforts are better spent on things like getting a set of townreads that I actually feel good about (which I have), inquiring on slots that are underinquired (which I have), and trying to push game dynamics that are beneficial for the town (i.e. having any fucking wagon ever, which, of course, I have).

Overall it seems to me like implosion is downplaying his ability to scumhunt D1 as a way of justifying why he's not tried hard to sort morph.

However at the same time implosion carries on stirring up concerns on morph:

My friend.

"carrying on stirring up concerns on morph"... is me trying hard to sort morph!!!!

This is part of why I'm focusing more on morph's suspicion of me than nsg's (at least for the time being), because I'm not as suspicious of nsg.

and criticising others' reasons for townreading them e.g. post 1076.

This was pretty much an objective observation. Would you rather I just not make an objective observation toward someone who is giving a partially incorrect reason to call a scumread of mine town??

Implosion is also more concerned with how morph is reading him than vice versa. He seemed to subtly fish for morph to townread him in post 325. And tries to dispel morph's doubts about him in the sequence from post 1083.

To elaborate on this I think this is probably actually a meta towntell for me. Take for instance this game where I basically spent the entire game yelling at RC (who had claimed a 100% meta scumtell on me) for making the game unplayable for me, or probably the best example (holy crap this took way longer to look for than I thought it would, older than I thought) is here, where I was limmed as town on d2 and spent the entire time going down screaming at people voting me for awful reasons and eventually gave dying reads that were 2/3 correct including calling most of my wagon town despite the screaming (that is to say, it's normal for me to use people pressuring me as an opportunity to sort them).

(sidenote @morph: found another scumgame while looking for the above that's still quite old but more recent than that other one and probably a little meta-relevant here)

But I don't see how getting morph to townread him helps him to sort morph?

See above.

Overall, if only one of these two is scum my money's still on implosion. He's a good player but I have more questions about his play here than in Guardians where he was town and pretty transparently so (albeit I was scum that game so had an informed perspective).

Everyone townread me early in that game based on my mech talk; to be completely honest I think a lot of those townreads were undeserved (VP townreading me for proactively bringing up my scum topic from the previous run of the game might have been right, I'm not sure, but definitely a lot of the stuff I was being called town for early was... not the most accurate). And I mean. You were calling me scum that game by the end, even though you were scum. It's not like I was so transparently town that I wasn't pushable. Hell, nQ and I were pretty close to misvoting each other.

[implosion]

Oh and one other point I forgot to mention is that imag, you're acting like this is not the "early game", whatever that means. It's 4 RL days in, as far as I'm concerned with respect to forming reads, it's very much the early game. Sure, a bunch of stuff has happened but there still hasn't been a wagon with more than 3 votes I think. I'm more than happy to not feel confident in most of my reads right now.

As for how this makes me feel about imaginality: I think a hard pivot on to me here is entirely consistent with him being scum. There's been a heck of a lot of vague suspicion on me from a variety of slots without any action, and I think scum-imag would potentially have motivation to try to coalesce that into action. His thread-engagement style so far of big post, a few small posts, big post, a few small posts is reminiscent of guardians though it could just be how he plays. Still need to think more on him though.

[implosion]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

I am firmly in the camp that the fact there have been no real wagons is Bad For This Town and will make it harder to get better reads as this game moves forward, and will also likely contribute to decay of morale in the long term (and the short term potentially).

I personally still have redtea as null atm.

[implosion]

Oh and as I was catching up when I saw 1117 I audibly said "OOOhhh" because yeah, that game fits exactly what my subconscious was telling me to think about Shirou >_>. So I appreciate him linking it. That said,

Also implosion, I kinda knew your "deepscum" thing was probably me (and it makes sense from your pov as either alignment), but like...it's still underwhelming that it doesn't seem to be developing either way since early game.

If my one game with you was me misreading you

specifically on d1

badly enough that I, an SK thinking the game was going to go too townsided and trying to hurt town as much as possible, wound up shooting you, as a serial killer, despite you making such claims late in the game day as "If Implo is scum, it's fine I'm gonna go sit in the wall of shame"

Like, my one game with you I misread you

that

badly and you want my read to

develop

on you in the first four RL days of the game? It's evident from that game that it will probably take me more than one RL day to read you accurately.

[implosion]

Okay I guess in the dead PT in that game I said I was shooting you partially because you weren't suspicious of me but could become suspicious but I also did say I thought you would and was hoping you would flip town.

[Shirou]

Like, my one game with you I misread you that badly and you want my read to develop on you in the first four RL days of the game? It's evident from that game that it will probably take me more than one RL day to read you accurately.

no actually I'm not asking you to read me accurately or to have a solid read at all

I just wanted to see you going...dunno, discussing with NSG for example that has similar thoughts about how you two should interpret some of my posts or so?

I don't mind if the best you've after thinking about them is "eh null", but I was perhaps just interested to see the thought process behind sorting it into null if you had any I guess?

to be honest partially I'm just poking you to see what you've to say as well, I don't feel strongly about your slot in either way. I thought maybe you could spew out something interesting upon me linking that game.

[Shirou]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

I am firmly in the camp that the fact there have been no real wagons is Bad For This Town and will make it harder to get better reads as this game moves forward, and will also likely contribute to decay of morale in the long term (and the short term potentially).

I personally still have redtea as null atm.

eh

maybe we can talk more about this later

I want to see what GL and some other slots have to say about what I said first

[implosion]

I don't mind if the best you've after thinking about them is "eh null", but I was perhaps just interested to see the thought process behind sorting it into null if you had any I guess?

I mean, I'd describe almost the entirety of your play so far as looking townish on the surface but being within your scumrange. Essentially exactly how Tejate Raichu described it but with the opposite inflection; you'd have to be very good to be scum here, but you are very good. I think you probably would agree (maybe not) that you haven't really posted much that you're not capable of faking as scum. Hence, I'm trying to make wagons happen, and move the game forward in ways that will allow me to perhaps read someone like you with accuracy - through how your stances evolve, how you use your vote and what wagons you push or defend or ignore, and so on, over a long span of time.

[implosion]

Looking a little more at imaginality's updated reads list.

Cephrir argued my suspicion of him is a playstyle thing. Well maybe but if so it's a convenient playstyle for scum to hide behind. Today's posts read a bit better maybe but I still have doubts whether Cephrir's really trying to solve.

This reminds me intensely of how he was giving his reads in the guardians game. Specifically this post; there was a ton of stuff in that post that was essentially a list of reasons to read a player in both directions without an actual commitment to a read. Here his take on Ceph is "he gave this argument, but the argument seems convenient, but he's better today, but i have my doubts". He does give an ordered reads list but the wishy-washiness of the rhetoric is still there and feels like scum who wants to call someone scum while giving themself a rhetorical out of sorts. It's sort of an IIoA thing to a degree as well, describing the things that Ceph has done and what he thinks of those things but not exactly why he comes to a particular conclusion based on those.

This game is drastically different from guardians as a setup which is important to keep in mind in this comparison though.

Also weird is he says that his Shirou read has been tempered a little, but then still lists Shirou as one of two people in his top tier of townreads?

[Cephrir]

I'm here and happy to interact but you haven't really given me much to interact directly with :p

The point on 603 from Ydrasse is interesting and the meta-guiltylion thing is interesting. I'm not as sold on the first point.

I also think the AL/morph thing is maybe a little off - morph's stated strength in reading AL is drastically higher than the other way around and like, I imagine morph-scum with AL-town wouldn't really be able to get away with

not

making a statement like that, right? There was a lot of talk about specifically that pairing having high BoP to read quickly.

i see that this point was already made in a different way, but it surprises me that anyone could post right after nsg's posts without having anything to say about shirou. that was clearly the most interesting thing there, no? why is it not on the list of interesting things.

as for my own thoughts, i will start actually reading his posts for intention again as i have been treating him as essentially conftown. i wouldn't mind more words about reasons to suspect shirou other than the elevated paranoia from this revelation-of-sorts.

nsg is no longer a scumread for me and will likely move up the readlist if this sort of thing continues.

i mean you said that shirou being deepscum was your pet theory so it just seems strange that after saying "now we're talking" when i bring it up you don't have anything more to say about it

I don't really have a ton more to say. Specifically his play was reminding me kind of of another specific scumgame I'll go find, though I really don't know if there's any actual reason my brain was making the connection to it other than it being a scumgame where I felt like I had very good reasons to townread someone and I was wrong. This is also related to how I was saying I wanted to townread Shirou earlier but felt like I couldn't, because I feel like his play is similar to some scumgames that have snowed me before.

why did this theory need to be kept in your pocket?

[implosion]

A current reads list for me looks something like this.

Town: Tejate, numberQ, fua.

Town, with reservations: Ceph, AL. Reservations on Ceph are that his scumgame is supposed to be strong but I do feel like my read here isn't hollow. Reservations on AL are in the event of a morph scum flip.

Null, but I feel like I have the content that I need to figure them out: nsg, GL, Ydrasse (who is pending on me looking more closely in light of nsg's comments).

I don't think I could really figure them out based on the game so far meaningfully: redtea, morph, Shirou. morph

is

a scumread if I go purely by my opinion of their posts without the context that I don't think they're a person my reads are likely to be very accurate on at this stage; with that context it's basically a matter of I think more interaction over more time can be enlightening. redtea is redtea. Shirou is explained above.

Then imaginality. But this is a very recent conclusion and I still want to see more people's opinions on his new reads list and stuff toward me.

[Ydrasse]

this game makes me feel like a ghost that everyone is afraid is haunting the towny halls

[Ydrasse]

i'm also feeling petulant in general

[Cephrir]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

i feel differently. my hope was simply to get redtea to do anything, and i find that this method usually works. unfortunately we have the opposite of a vote-happy playerlist, and the result of that is that we can't build a pressure wagon on anyone at all. i feel this is depriving us of a valuable tool. i would happily vote-hop anywhere in about half the playerlist just to see what happens, but we don't seem to have enough players willing to use this tool.

[implosion]

i see that this point was already made in a different way, but it surprises me that anyone could post right after nsg's posts without having anything to say about shirou. that was clearly the most interesting thing there, no? why is it not on the list of interesting things.

I mean, I did comment on it in saying that I'd also been uncertain about him. I'm not specifically sure why I didn't say more about it after but there are just so many individual posts from Shirou that give me the same feeling when reading them of "this is townish without the context of who posted it but null with that context" is so high that there really wasn't much else specific to say. Or at least I've said anything else specific I had to say now.

why did this theory need to be kept in your pocket?

Combination of I've had similar sort of scumreads on consensus townreads in the past that have been wrong (at least I feel like I have, this is also part of why I don't trust myself on morph) and I don't think I'm really capable of reading Shirou based on his content so far at a rate above random. It didn't really

need

to be kept in my pocket, I just didn't feel the need to elucidate it.

[Cephrir]

(i realize i haven't actually moved my vote that much either, and i don't feel like explaining why i don't think that's contradictory)