Newbie 2086 - Reaction GIFs | End!

[catboi]

Further, the idea that I'm unwilling to interact with or give opinions on teammates as scum when I'm locked in a 1v1 is flatly not true - it's incredibly easy to fake stances on, and as scum you can comfortably posture knowing that even if you lose you're setting up associations to win afterward. It's incredibly easy to do. As town I have less certainty and so need to be mor cautious in my assessments of other players.

[Dunnstral]

There's 9 players alive at that point and nobody has died. Yeah the setup is weird, but it's not the same thing.

[catboi]

I wasn't going to dive my whole ISO that game but even after the Briar flip I was posturing toward the wall in order to try to distance from my partner and confuse associations. It's not remotely a hard thing to do.

[catboi]

That link was a starting point. If people in this game would like to see how I act in a more conventional situation (I'm in a 1v1 with something_smart and my teammate is in a 3p with no clears until lukewarm gets given the hammer), you can start here instead.

[butterchurn]

Is it really not all that well explained? I had him as a POE slot from day 2 and never wavered from there, thought his hammer was scum motivated, and then he opened the day with a case on me with atrocious reasoning that was effectively a scumclaim to me. No, I didn't call out the hammer in the immediate aftermath because at that time in the immediate aftermath it could have easily been a scum flip, and it only really was scummy in my eyes on a townflip.

But still, my thinking was towards a POE on day 2 and literally nothing happened to change my mind. Why the hell are you acting like this was out of nowhere?

No, it really isn't well explained. Not once did you directly engage with any of dunn's posts and explain why you thought those were suspicious, until his case on you. The closest thing you got was a response to cape. My quotes in 679 weren't single sentences pulled out of longer explanations. That was literally the entirety of what you had said about dunn. You still haven't explained WHY you think the hammer was scum motivated. I think we can all agree it was very strange, and once void flips it looks bad on the surface, but what is scum!dunn's reasoning behind his actions? Why does he vote cape earlier in the day instead of void? Why does he bring up the whole role thing, then reason his way through it, and THEN vote? Why not just declare intent and let things happen the normal way? Why draw so much attention? I'm not saying that these are impossible things for scum to do by any means. I just want you to explain why they are more likely to come from scum than town, which you never did. And not just a plausible rationalization, I want to know why you were so convinced. You seemed to just come into the day taking for granted that everyone would find it suspicious, to the point where when I didn't, you seemed to get frustrated (which, I think you could easily get frustrated there as either alignment, for different reasons).

Further, butterchurn, why does my read on Dunn escalating today make me more likely to be scum? Why can't that be an organic thought process? I had him as a suspect for a big part of yesterday, my primary read was wrong, he moved to occupy the spot of most likely scum in my mind. Dunn literally didn't suspect me at all before today and sheeped my vote, then came out the gates with a case on me. Your only engagement with it is to say he's "talking past" me in 630, but never actually address the substance of his argument at all.

If you had him as a suspicion yesterday, why didn't you investigate further, look at any of his posts, or make any sort of push on him when the votecount was at 2 on him and 1 on Greeting? Or even later, when the vote is split at 1 each, and you've just finished a votecount analysis that puts dunn on 3 of your 5 most likely teams? If you were so worried about needing to consolidate the votes and bemoaning how the votecount was a mess, why were you not looking into one of the few people who had multiple people expressing willingness to vote them, when they had 2 votes on them at one point and were also one of your suspects? Instead you went down what felt like a "well, I HAVE to vote void at this point, he can't get a newbie pass forever" route. It doesn't feel like you were taking a genuine interest in solving the game and finding scum (or working with your townreads -- you were townreading Greeting and cape, the two votes on Dunn), and that's what I find suspicious. So either you do have him as a strong suspect yesterday, but you never really push or make a case on him despite it making sense to do so, or you didn't have him as a strong suspect, and then it escalated even more quickly.

As for Dunn's argument, I don't think the content of it is bad. I think it is fairly likely that he makes that case or a similar one as scum, but after my reread of the thread, I ended up coming to a similar conclusion about your direction yesterday (see prior paragraph), so I don't think the case itself is an issue. The problem I had with it was the artificial tone, and that's what I brought up, because that was the part of it that I found suspicious.

I mean, it's not like you're really committing to an answer, either - you've left the possibilities as me/cape and me/zefiend, and have taken basically ~no steps to figure things out.

And for what it's worth, I completely agree with this. The behavior reads like someone who knows that in order to win, they only have to get one elim. It may seem like I'm talking about you more, but there's just more to talk about, especially because I had mostly been townreading you before this (and frankly, I think engaging with dunn would be less helpful and not make things much clearer for me, so I'd rather try to solve it from this side). I'm still conflicted. I preferred a zefiend elim today, but that's clearly not happening, and I guess in the end it doesn't really matter which comes first, so I'm just trying to work out who is more likely to be scum between you and dunn.

[butterchurn]

Earlier you said if I'm scum the Greeting kill doesn't make sense unless I was planning to bus.

I did not. I said that about Dunn. Very interesting that you mixed those up, though. Since before the kill even came in, I thought that only teams with you on them would kill Greeting. The change in opinion that I've had is that I see it could be possible for Dunn to be scum (specifically, with you), where previously I thought the kill only made sense if he were town.

2) Do you think scum!me spends an entire day pushing Greeting instead of lazy sheeping on VOID, only to lazy-kill Greeting the following night?

Yes, obviously I do. I think Greeting is a bit of a weird kill no matter who the scumteam is, but clearly

someone

thought it was the best choice, and I think any team without you on it would be much less likely to opt for that route.

This is all post-hoc rationalization. I 1000% do not kill Greeting last night if I'm scum.

Your focus on me today is very telling.

I do not suspect Cape will hand me the hammer, but im not ready to hand it to him either yet. I want to be able to figure out if a bus is occuring. And, like all game, butter is hedging their bets and opinions to be opportune.

Adding more 0s doesn't make it any more convincing. It's also 10000% not post-hoc -- I analyzed the possible nightkills during the night exactly so I could avoid any post-hoc rationalization (I don't particularly care if anyone believes that or not, but that

was

my reasoning for it, so it's kinda funny to me that you're claiming otherwise). You most certainly could kill Greeting as scum, because otherwise you are pretty much locked in to a vote on him. You already basically said you were going to camp there. If you don't think that's a viable miselim (I don't think it really was), killing him gives you way more flexibility, since now you can easily vote anyone and play a more active role in the endgame, regardless of your partner. I think it especially makes sense if your partner is catboi or cape, since it allows you to easily push for Dunn. Any team without you on it, however, would be much more inclined to leave Greeting alive, because if you do just lock your vote on Greeting as town, the game is over.

I'm not really focused on you at all, I'm more concerned about catboi and dunn. I'm already pretty sure that you're the partner of whichever of them is scum. That's not hedging. I'm unsure between dunn and catboi, and trying to work that out.

Who do you think is mafia?

[Cape90]

Earlier you said if I'm scum the Greeting kill doesn't make sense unless I was planning to bus.

I did not. I said that about Dunn. Very interesting that you mixed those up, though. Since before the kill even came in, I thought that only teams with you on them would kill Greeting. The change in opinion that I've had is that I see it could be possible for Dunn to be scum (specifically, with you), where previously I thought the kill only made sense if he were town.

2) Do you think scum!me spends an entire day pushing Greeting instead of lazy sheeping on VOID, only to lazy-kill Greeting the following night?

Yes, obviously I do. I think Greeting is a bit of a weird kill no matter who the scumteam is, but clearly

someone

thought it was the best choice, and I think any team without you on it would be much less likely to opt for that route.

This is all post-hoc rationalization. I 1000% do not kill Greeting last night if I'm scum.

Your focus on me today is very telling.

I do not suspect Cape will hand me the hammer, but im not ready to hand it to him either yet. I want to be able to figure out if a bus is occuring. And, like all game, butter is hedging their bets and opinions to be opportune.

Where are you at with the whole catboi/zefiend thing?

[catboi]

It just struck me that there is probably a reason that cape is suddenly suspicious of me that cannot be discussed due to site rules. That is unfortunate.

Will try to respond to butterchurn later.

[Cape90]

I am going to question the reasoning of others and how they apply even if their approach differs from how I'm approaching the day. My goal in doing so is to try to understand and critique their logic. Cape very specifically gave a conditional of me-scum, zefiend-town, so I want to know who he possibly thinks I'm teamed with in that scenario.


And for the record, I am forming reads based off talking to people but reserve the to not commit to an exact answer at this point in time. My focus is on getting step 1 right. But asking questions and interacting is how I plan to figure things out.

I mean, it's not like you're really committing to an answer, either - you've left the possibilities as me/cape and me/zefiend, and have taken basically ~no steps to figure things out.

You know, I was kinda doing the same thing you were doing to where I was thinking of, you know, pressuring the slot I felt was the scummiest versus looking for partners, btw what happened to that ideology?

Well, the answer in that world feels obvious to me, but I don't think butterchurn is mafia right now. I mean, if you want to spew you and zefiend as both Mafia together go right ahead.

Yes I do know better then to think that 2 SE players would go out of their way to cross bus each other in ELO.

[Cape90]

It just struck me that there is probably a reason that cape is suddenly suspicious of me that cannot be discussed due to site rules. That is unfortunate.

Will try to respond to butterchurn later.

It isn't because of that fwiw. I am kinda on the road so I'ma get back to you on that a little later today

[Cape90]

It just struck me that there is probably a reason that cape is suddenly suspicious of me that cannot be discussed due to site rules. That is unfortunate.

Will try to respond to butterchurn later.

It isn't because of that fwiw. I am kinda on the road so I'ma get back to you on that a little later today

You remember when I had some suspicion on you day 1 no? I'm revisiting that

[catboi]

You know, I was kinda doing the same thing you were doing to where I was thinking of, you know, pressuring the slot I felt was the scummiest versus looking for partners, btw what happened to that ideology?

I...have no idea what you're saying? My focus is still on Dunn, but I am voting him, and he is close to confirmed scum to me. That means I move from trying to decide who is scum to talking to other people, trying to convince them Dunn is scum, and maybe, hopefully, get a read on them that way.

Well, the answer in that world feels obvious to me, but I don't think butterchurn is mafia right now. I mean, if you want to spew you and zefiend as both Mafia together go right ahead.

Yes I do know better then to think that 2 SE players would go out of their way to cross bus each other in ELO.

I don't think cross-bussing in ELO is nearly as invalid a tactic as you believe it to be. (thousands of chat games' worth of experience suggests otherwise). However, I'd be out of my mind to do it here when butterchurn was telegraphing his intention to vote zefiend.

That being said, this is incoherent? You won't commit to me being aligned with anyone here and in fact have seemingly dismissed any pairing, so why the continued suspicion of me? If you had the belief I could be partnered with someone, it'd be wrong, but it would least

make sense

. It's frustrating to not get a straight answer to a simple question like that.

[butterchurn]

and he is close to confirmed scum to me.

Close?

[Cape90]

My focus is still on Dunn,

but I am voting him, and he is close to confirmed scum to me.

That means I move from trying to decide who is scum to talking to other people, trying to convince them Dunn is scum, and maybe, hopefully, get a read on them that way.

He literally

is

confirmed scum to you in all worlds. Where is Dunn not?

[Cape90]

Butterchurn stop stealing my thoughts plz

[butterchurn]

Maybe he thinks there's a scumteam among me/cape/zefiend that just really thought this game was a lot of fun and wanted to keep playing.

[catboi]

I mean, strictly speaking, zefiend posted once this morning and not when either of you two were online. I'm not unvoting but I'm not treating it as fully confirmed until it actually is.

[Cape90]

I don't think cross-bussing in ELO is nearly as invalid a tactic as you believe it to be. (thousands of chat games' worth of experience suggests otherwise)

I would say chat games don't exactly super translate to this format. Plus I feel like both of you could easily try to push zefiend or myself so

[catboi]

I reserve the right to be conservative in my language. If you think that's telling of my alignment you're delusional.

[catboi]

I don't think cross-bussing in ELO is nearly as invalid a tactic as you believe it to be. (thousands of chat games' worth of experience suggests otherwise)

I would say chat games don't exactly super translate to this format. Plus I feel like both of you could easily try to push zefiend or myself so

I think it's an entirely valid move strategically but wouldn't try it given what other people's reads were.

[butterchurn]

Just was curious why you chose that phrasing, since it seemed odd from your perspective if you're town. I'm not particularly thinking it was a slip or anything.

[catboi]

No, it really isn't well explained. Not once did you directly engage with any of dunn's posts and explain why you thought those were suspicious, until his case on you. The closest thing you got was a response to cape. My quotes in 679 weren't single sentences pulled out of longer explanations. That was literally the entirety of what you had said about dunn. You still haven't explained WHY you think the hammer was scum motivated. I think we can all agree it was very strange, and once void flips it looks bad on the surface, but what is scum!dunn's reasoning behind his actions? Why does he vote cape earlier in the day instead of void? Why does he bring up the whole role thing, then reason his way through it, and THEN vote? Why not just declare intent and let things happen the normal way? Why draw so much attention? I'm not saying that these are impossible things for scum to do by any means. I just want you to explain why they are more likely to come from scum than town, which you never did. And not just a plausible rationalization, I want to know why you were so convinced. You seemed to just come into the day taking for granted that everyone would find it suspicious, to the point where when I didn't, you seemed to get frustrated (which, I think you could easily get frustrated there as either alignment, for different reasons).

Why do I think the hammer was scum motivated? ffs, really? It was a quickhammer without a claim on town that shut down the day and sent the game to ELO. That's a golden opportunity for scum and one I absolutely believe he'd take.

He votes cape earlier in the day because he's interested in pushing back on cape and discrediting cape's scumread of him. Scum don't have to have a rhyme or reason for everything they do and the idea they just swarm to the best available wagon is silly. By keeping the wagons split for most of day 2 it prevented any sort of cohesion and made it likely we wound up on a compromise elimination.

It's very likely he legitimately suspected that void was possibly the doctor, and stayed away for that reason. It's something I've seen scm do befiore, and not really a towntell because they can have PR reads that are entirely legitimate. Why does he bring up that entire reasoning? To look like he's "thinking" his way through? If he declares intent, it's possible people get scared off and unvote, taking away the opportunity for him to hammer

so of course he quickhammers without stating intent

. As scum dunn lurks hard and akes that kind of play because he knows people will let him get away with it.


You are essentially asking "why does scum do this thing that is enormously beneficial for scum"? It's utterly outrageous.

I regret using the "carrying water" line on cape earlier because you really are making a ton of excuses for Dunn's play.

[catboi]

If you had him as a suspicion yesterday, why didn't you investigate further, look at any of his posts, or make any sort of push on him when the votecount was at 2 on him and 1 on Greeting? Or even later, when the vote is split at 1 each, and you've just finished a votecount analysis that puts dunn on 3 of your 5 most likely teams? If you were so worried about needing to consolidate the votes and bemoaning how the votecount was a mess, why were you not looking into one of the few people who had multiple people expressing willingness to vote them, when they had 2 votes on them at one point and were also one of your suspects? Instead you went down what felt like a "well, I HAVE to vote void at this point, he can't get a newbie pass forever" route. It doesn't feel like you were taking a genuine interest in solving the game and finding scum (or working with your townreads -- you were townreading Greeting and cape, the two votes on Dunn), and that's what I find suspicious. So either you do have him as a strong suspect yesterday, but you never really push or make a case on him despite it making sense to do so, or you didn't have him as a strong suspect, and then it escalated even more quickly.

I WOULD HAVE COMPROMISED.

I made that post at 1:30 AM my time. The intent was to discuss this

with other people

. By the time I woke up, the game was hammered. I WAS GIVEN NO OPPORTUNITY TO TALK WITH OTHER PEOPLE. You are willfully distorting the timeline of events here. I did not have him as a strong suspect. I had him as someone in my POE. I was uncertain. I always am. I would have gladly moved to put my vote on him but was cut off from doing so.

[catboi]

And for what it's worth, I completely agree with this. The behavior reads like someone who knows that in order to win, they only have to get one elim. It may seem like I'm talking about you more, but there's just more to talk about, especially because I had mostly been townreading you before this (and frankly, I think engaging with dunn would be less helpful and not make things much clearer for me, so I'd rather try to solve it from this side). I'm still conflicted. I preferred a zefiend elim today, but that's clearly not happening, and I guess in the end it doesn't really matter which comes first, so I'm just trying to work out who is more likely to be scum between you and dunn.

Why the hell would you not engage with someone who has provided decidedly less to work with this game? Why would you notangage with his reasoning at all? The hyperfocus makes absolutely no sense.

[catboi]

In a general sense dunn's scumreads this game prior to today have all been either opportunistic or survivalistic: he has either voted on the lead wagon at the time (as with not known/cape) or pushed back against the people who were pushing him. At precisely no point was he ever actually trying to genuinely evaluate people.