Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[Cephrir]

if redtea is scum I may have fucked up in #1109

but even if they are town I may be suspected over defending them for "no good reason"

however, I do still boldly claim:

it feels like a semi-RVS wagon out of apathy and those almost never flip scum. Neither does getting a wagon on them usually do much more than making people comfortable on sitting in that stagnating wagon.

The easiest course of action would have been trying to start a counter wagon because I sensed you guys would vote redtea before, but unhappily I'm not confident enough yet to push a counterwagon.

i didn't really care about 1109 but i didn't love this attempt to clean it up

[implosion]

Another comment I think I just realized unrelated to anything recent - someone mentioned thinking my comment on my nsg wagon hop was performative. I think I've realized why I felt awkward making that jump (and probably why the post looks performative as a result) which is that I was under tension between wanting to wagon hop and not really wanting to hop onto nsg's wagon specifically because I didn't feel like pressure on nsg was going to make her more likely to do useful things, evidenced by the game I linked earlier with her.

[implosion]

(i realize i haven't actually moved my vote that much either, and i don't feel like explaining why i don't think that's contradictory)

what? you've made 7 votes.

[Cephrir]

Tej seems fun and shouldn't be limmed today for that reason alone

this statement seems like, wildly out of tune with the rest of your play

[Tejate Raichu]

I'm not really sure how I feel about imaginality. Their read on me strikes me as particularly off, but obviously I'm a bit naturally drawn to reading things about myself so maybe I'm just paranoid.

Regardless, I understand that mafia is largely a social game, but someone being "fun" does not strike me as a reason most people would publicly state for not wanting them elim'd?

[Tejate Raichu]

this game makes me feel like a ghost that everyone is afraid is haunting the towny halls

But are you a friendly ghost or a vengeful spirit?

[Ydrasse]

this game makes me feel like a ghost that everyone is afraid is haunting the towny halls

But are you a friendly ghost or a vengeful spirit?

friendly but mildly disheartened ghost

[Ydrasse]

also sometimes you really don't want to admit it but you like other players enough where their presence inches them a bit closer to staying alive than not

there's an element of readability/familiarity in there too but the social game does favor the charismatic/sociable

[Tejate Raichu]

I certainly agree with that, amicability most certainly is a factor when it comes down to who you want to put on a wagon. But I don't think most people would outright say "Wow, that Tejate guy's a riot, let's not kill him". It doesn't feel like an actual good reason.

[Ydrasse]

i wouldn't vote you today because you are trying your best and you are valid

[Tejate Raichu]

That's very sweet of you, but I don't really take offense to votes on me or suspicion of me, which is part of why I reacted how I did when you expressed your doubts on like page 8 or something.

[Cephrir]

(i realize i haven't actually moved my vote that much either, and i don't feel like explaining why i don't think that's contradictory)

what? you've made 7 votes.

oh. huh.

[Ydrasse]

no no no

you're under my wing now

i will fight them off for you

[implosion]

Ydrasse, regarding this:

but I will say the difference I'm seeing is that Ydrasse seems genuinely a lot more invested in parsing out people's mindset behind their takes, I liked that she challenged me on the early conclusion I drew about your hydra having a townier opening than AL, I like that she's digging into numberQ's commentary on Shirou. It's not an ironclad reason to locktown Ydrasse, like she's certainly a capable scum player,

but overall the sense I get from her scum game - especially how she played Dance - is that she leans heavily on appearing tonally town, chill vibes, wanting to seem like she's not too survivalist or too tryhard, etc, whereas I get the sense the purpose of her posts so far here is less about being perceived any kind of way and more doing real digging into things she doesn't like or doesn't understand

. All this is D1 with no flips so heavy grain of salt, but that's the distinction I'm feeling

Would you say that this is an accurate characterization of the way that you think about playing scum, specifically that as scum you have a focus on appearing tonally chill/etc rather than focusing on looking like you're sorting?

[Tejate Raichu]

I'll dig through my thoughts on imaginality and the hydras later today, I'm gonna hang out and watch Netflix for now.

I'd also like to revise my take on NSG.

[Ydrasse]

Ydrasse, regarding this:

but I will say the difference I'm seeing is that Ydrasse seems genuinely a lot more invested in parsing out people's mindset behind their takes, I liked that she challenged me on the early conclusion I drew about your hydra having a townier opening than AL, I like that she's digging into numberQ's commentary on Shirou. It's not an ironclad reason to locktown Ydrasse, like she's certainly a capable scum player,

but overall the sense I get from her scum game - especially how she played Dance - is that she leans heavily on appearing tonally town, chill vibes, wanting to seem like she's not too survivalist or too tryhard, etc, whereas I get the sense the purpose of her posts so far here is less about being perceived any kind of way and more doing real digging into things she doesn't like or doesn't understand

. All this is D1 with no flips so heavy grain of salt, but that's the distinction I'm feeling

Would you say that this is an accurate characterization of the way that you think about playing scum, specifically that as scum you have a focus on appearing tonally chill/etc rather than focusing on looking like you're sorting?

my mindset when i play scum is that i want to beat everyone and will do what i need to and most often that's just saying what people want to hear and doing things that people don't think scum will do. in dance game appearing self-sacrificial based on my status on the game and appearing all light and airy and "no, IC, you do what you want" was beneficial

in a game like silent star, it was beneficial to brute force bus two of my partners despite knowing that that would look not so good after a certain point and then being towny in the eyes of the people remaining

in games like guardian i just go all out effort, thoughts, interaction

and so it goes

so basically my thoughts while scum is: i am aware of absolutely everything i post/say/do in game and am like a little opportunistic bird flying overhead ready to do what i need to do and /often/ that's just vibing for a while

[fua]

also I dislike that redtea wagon. They're more likely than not town to me and even if you can't see their slot that way, they've barely been here. You're mostly voting them for inactivity and not having much content to go off rather than because they've been really "scummy". It feels like almost a RVS wagon...except on page 40-ish.

It's fine I guess if it's just a "oh let's do a random wagon out of some gut suspicious" (literally like a RVS?), but a lurky slot that is a consensus scum read for almost everyone? yeah, doesn't feel a lot like scum to me either even outside of their content itself.

i feel differently. my hope was simply to get redtea to do anything, and i find that this method usually works. unfortunately we have the opposite of a vote-happy playerlist, and the result of that is that we can't build a pressure wagon on anyone at all. i feel this is depriving us of a valuable tool. i would happily vote-hop anywhere in about half the playerlist just to see what happens, but we don't seem to have enough players willing to use this tool.

Tej seems fun and shouldn't be limmed today for that reason alone

this statement seems like, wildly out of tune with the rest of your play

Use your tool and vote imaginality with me.

VOTE: Imaginality

[Cephrir]

k

VOTE: imaginality

[Ydrasse]

VOTE: imaginality

[implosion]

VOTE: imaginality

[Ydrasse]

town wagon of justice and truth

[Cephrir]

why did you break the combo

[Ydrasse]

I wanted to solidify the special pact

[imaginality]

You folk are nuts.

Actually a couple of you are scum and the others are nuts.

Actually a couple of you are scum and the others are understandably not super-impressed by my play today.

Look at the speed of this wagon vs redtea though. I think the difference is potentially informative.

[imaginality]

Looking a little more at imaginality's updated reads list.

Cephrir argued my suspicion of him is a playstyle thing. Well maybe but if so it's a convenient playstyle for scum to hide behind. Today's posts read a bit better maybe but I still have doubts whether Cephrir's really trying to solve.

This reminds me intensely of how he was giving his reads in the guardians game. Specifically this post; there was a ton of stuff in that post that was essentially a list of reasons to read a player in both directions without an actual commitment to a read. Here his take on Ceph is "he gave this argument, but the argument seems convenient, but he's better today, but i have my doubts". He does give an ordered reads list but the wishy-washiness of the rhetoric is still there and feels like scum who wants to call someone scum while giving themself a rhetorical out of sorts. It's sort of an IIoA thing to a degree as well, describing the things that Ceph has done and what he thinks of those things but not exactly why he comes to a particular conclusion based on those.

This game is drastically different from guardians as a setup which is important to keep in mind in this comparison though.

Sue me for having a nuanced take. If someone was obvscum we wouldn't have waited 40 pages for our first wagon (and sorry to disappoint but we're going to have to wait even longer for our first wagon on scum).

As for description my posts are intended partly to share what I'm noticing and also convenient for me to refer back to (I don't have a notes PT). I understand that might seem waffly but when i actually have a case to push I'm more focused.

Also weird is he says that his Shirou read has been tempered a little, but then still lists Shirou as one of two people in his top tier of townreads?

Yep, I still see him as town but understand there is reason to be wary. So my confidence in my read being right has lessened a little.