Open 843 - Divide & Conquer - Game Over!

[Dwlee99]

Okay, sorry

[Prism]

I get that our styles conflict and we rarely agree, and again same thing as with IV, if I'm wrong, sorry, it is not for lack of reading or effort and what I do give you just blatantly shove to the side and assume that I should see it's genuine. If you think it is so obvious you are town and I am the World's Biggest Moron put together the case for it and present it instead of expecting me to do literally everything

[Prism]

I do accept the apology and appreciate it. I know I have not been the most levelheaded and patient person the last week.

[Prism]

IV is also at E-1 and you can hammer at literally any time.

[Dwlee99]

I have three days so you know I'll probably spend those three days overthinking it

[Brighter Puppy]

i want to engage in prism points.
but i odn't know if i am walking on egg shells if i do.

[Prism]

Dude you have unexpectedly been the best friend I have had all game, it's fine.

I might not respond though, just a heads up, depends on how I feel. I feel slightly better having just vented for a bit but am just making Mr. Incredible Becoming Uncanny meme progressions to cope.

[Prism]

You have earned enough goodwill that I will fly you out to Disneyworld if you want, all previous sins have been forgiven

[Brighter Puppy]

I think Esther's is very, very clean bordering on perfect if scum.

Like this....just tells me u think all my points are garbage and u won't even really tell me why u think she is playing so well?
I don't even know what is going on here.

I don't understand what is scummy about IV here except for how he came in this day and decided he would auto pilot this because he assumed we would just be lim Esther and calling it a day. Which to me isn't so much scummy as is lazy and anti town. Nothing in his tone really screams scum to me. The most i get is waffling and not commital reads. Which spoiler alert is like everyone in this game?

I don't want to beat u up so whenever u have a chance or if u don't want to engage i guess (whatever is best for ur health game not as important as rl issues).

I don't think this is right course of action so i am speaking up.

p-edit okay well this was what was on my mind

[Prism]

By "clean" play, I mean I do not think esther has been even slightly opportunistic today, and has not been hesitant in hunting in 6, selling her case, and ruling out others (eg. on Dunnstral). Her points have all been natural to me, her realtime interactions too, and the only one I thought was out there was the one about me pushing to go in 6. If she hasn't played with me before she also will not understand my scum POV on strategy.

1048 in particular I want to highlight as a very, very good post. I took a very different angle on the IV post that I will discuss in a second, and it definitely has scum incentive in trying to nudge me along, but is more likely just chewing seriously on the partner question and what motivate IV to give that read.

I saw your tonal point, but I didn't find it persuasive. I talked about it earlier. I do similar as scum, but I copied it after losing to town players repeatedly. They're also very open about the approach, which again might just be the next layer of scumplay, but it is again extremely clean if so.

I think IV's day leans on the scum side, too. I again think the cut-off check-in and how little fight in him he has is indicative, and if I am wrong then okay. I read through the wall, and while it may have been the tilt, I did not find it cohesive or convincing, particularly in points like "Why is esther so calm?" when as scum she has more reason to be nervous and struggle to post, while IV's "calm" has been in the form of lost energy at a time when I expect he would have gone harder. He does not like playing scum and gets very demotivated even if he can put up a good fight when needed, and I think the wall lines up with that. His defense of me today, when I was not on the table but IV was, really suggested to me it was an attempt to win my vote back before it slipped.

[mc esther]

The most i get is waffling and not commital reads. Which spoiler alert is like everyone in this game?

i dont think this is everyone in the game? it's not prism, it's not you, it's not std. it's not even really me (hard dunn, hard you, hard todoroki, but fair i can see how hard iv is an exception).

[Prism]

I have been wary repeatedly of players just playing extremely "clean" scumgames, which to me is largely an intuitive concept just because I have a strong internalized compass for what is the right play as scum and what isn't, but every single time they have been town. There is a very limited sample, and I'm sure it will happen, and maybe it is this game.

I did not actually skim her scumplay as part of that vote but skimming it now it is IMO a step down from her play this game, even with the scum advantage of multiball. The level of play might have been just lower across the board, but again, if she's scum and I'm wrong, OK.

The full list of things wrong is like 1. Pushing in 6 for a bit on Day 1 2. The push on me today is arguably a hail mary. The only other things I see to really criticize are like surface-level reads at the very start of Day 1, which is totally plausible as town, or your inherent distrust of her tone today.

[Prism]

Nothing in his tone really screams scum to me. The most i get is waffling and not commital reads.

He's a very tonal player; I think reading him off of this is a mistake. I think bouncing this off of Norwegian's experience in 912 would go a long way.

I cannot fully elaborate on my townread of IV early because it involves ongoing games, but stepping back to a holistic picture, I expected some degree of early reads (check!) as opposed to questioning, and think he wound up slipping backwards after Day 1. Specifically with esther, I expected a lot more because he typically goes door to door selling his scumreads even when they're off the wall.

[Prism]

I get that "clean"/"sharp" are very vague descriptors. I know there are 2/3 times it has happened, but the most vivid wasHectic in Undertale 2.0, and while I don't think you're concerned about my alignment I want to make it clear that I'm not just pulling random bullshit out of thin air on you. It's not making any "mistakes" day in and day out all week long.

[Prism]

If you make a case on flipping Dunnstral I will look at it in the morning but that is all I have in the tank for tonight.

I'm glad I mustered up some energy and I'm not as dismayed as I was earlier but I'm back to Very Tired

[Prism]

I think you're misconstruing Dunnstral. Dunnstral said he already explained his reads, which he had [in general], even if not specifically to IV. I think this is par for the course for Dunnstral to avoid the restatement. He has discussed his reads, even if they are not that elaborate beyond the one on dwlee.

I think there are issues his play/lack thereof but don't see any indicator of PT-not-main-thread shenanigans.

[Prism]

What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence [...]

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine!"

Another day in the MafiaScum.net trenches. Fight from it, run from it, disown it, dread it, still it comes.

[mc esther]

i might just stay bad at the game if the alternative is entering this pit of eternal despair

[Dwlee99]

Okay so this post isn't going to do a lot of quoting or direct references and I hope that is okay, but I get a feeling there is a suspicious (this is only if IV or Esther have mentioned my d1 play but not dunn's, which I think is the case but it isn't important for the analysis) lack of interest in Dunnstral's day one play.

I understand my D1 was pretty empty. I didn't do much in the way of explicitly hunting. I voted Esther early cause I felt like she was scummy. I don't even remember why at this point and although I could probably figure it out if I looked back that isn't the point of this post. I then moved to Todoroki sheeping prism. I pretty much agreed with consensus and just went with the flow of the game because it felt like it was going well. I can understand why people don't like this.

I look at STD's and I see immediately he is actually giving reads and solving.

I look at Dunnstral's and... okay I lied I'm referencing. I'm doing a post-by-post-analysis of this.

38: Naked RVS vote. Null.

47: Asking why brighter puppy thought esther is scum in second group. This can be considered null until I show the pattern.

74: Here dunnstral asks why Todoroki would put hard to read players in the group of 3 not 6. Okay you might be seeing the pattern.

82: Asking Todoroki why they answered a certain way instead of the actual question.

108: We get the first actual thoughts from Dunn on someone's alignment: mine, by a vote. It's not accompanied by any reasoning other than thinking that we should eliminate in the 6 player hood.

129: Clarifying something someone said.

133: I don't even know why this quote was relevant and I don't think it matters if I find out.

187: Agreeing with mech.

290: Asking esther why todoroki is scum over IV.

566: Okay, first, note there's a huge jump in post number. Almost two days pass between these two posts (290 and 566), and this one comes AFTER todoroki is limmed. What is the commentary? That Todoroki was a bad wagon. I feel like it is super convenient for Dunn to claim this after the wagon had happened and without commenting on it or his read on Todoroki at all while it was happening. Oops, the wagon just happened?

Now after the wagon is hammered Dunnstral begins posting a lot consecutively.

576: Not going to vote small hood tomorrow.

581: Response to 580 saying he always posts at this time.

590: Asking Todoroki why they think it's prism.

591: Again saying won't kill in small hood.

Okay that's Dunnstral's entire D1 ISO.

What are my takeaways?

First, Dunnstral is asking a lot of questions but is not doing anything with the answers to the questions. I think he's doing this to keep up appearances of activity but without putting in thought to the game. You could probably say the same for me about my mech and I ask IV something about his remembering us playing together in the past as buddies, but my posts aren't geared towards appearances like I think dunn's are.

Second, the pop-in after Todoroki was hammered is just atrocious. You don't get to be off wagon and seemingly townread Todoroki (given unvote from Todoroki to vote me and calling it a bad wagon), sit by while it forms and prism goes balls to the walls posting about it, and then come in only after it's actually gone through and say it was bad. If it was bad, why was nothing said in the 2 days between 290 and 566?

Now I do want to clarify, this is NOT a post saying we have to lim dunn first. I actually have found something that makes me think it is IV while I was just reading around.

Prism you should announce E1 if you’re going to do it, that is not a good look for you

Imagine if Esther is scum here and just lolhammers

This post right here is just slimy. I also don't even see why "what if esther quickhammers" would be a concern town!iv actually thinks of in that moment.

[Dwlee99]

What if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness, and say to you, "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence [...]

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more divine!"

Another day in the MafiaScum.net trenches. Fight from it, run from it, disown it, dread it, still it comes.

Spoiler: not game related philosophy talk

I absolutely adore the idea of eternal recurrence and the idea of

amor fati

, love of one's fate, is super inspiring to me as a way to think about living life.

[Brighter Puppy]

I feel like IV would be way more present and use slimy arguments if he’s scum Prism. That game you brought up reminds me of that, don’t you think IV’s play is way different here? Now it could just be playstyle shift, but when he said it was stressing to be in a 1v1 it felt genuine and real. While Esther has mostly just looked smug lately. And i get why it’s easier to trust an player that doesn’t make any obvious mistakes and has an alluring tone. But it feels to me like it’s the play a scum would do. While IV made some wrong plays that he prob wouldn’t have done if he was scum. It speaks to me levels that i instantly caught out IV as scum in the micro, even if i later doubted my read. Because his play was "good", or "not making any visible mistakes" while i instantly thought Esther was scum in this game, even if i later doubted my read here too. But Fire woke me up. I think it’s clear that Esther has an bigger agenda of being townread, and is accomodating her play in order to reach that goal. In short, it’s not genuine. It’s artificial, it’s an uncanny AI. Close to human, but something creepy about it.
Now i’m not going to decide on your play, but i do feel like you should give our solves an chance today, and not just follow your own logic again. And right now both me and Fire feel more sure about scum!Esther than IV.

- Norwee

[Brighter Puppy]

There is another reason why it would be smart to vote 6 hood now actually, but if i say what it is, it will lose it’s impact… Hmm…

- Norwee

[Dwlee99]

I feel like IV would be way more present and use slimy arguments if he’s scum Prism.

What did you think of [post]537[post]?

I feel like it's slimy

[Dwlee99]

537

[Prism]

I am down to vote whatever gets us a flip.

I don't disagree with most of what you wrote in 1168. Simultaneously, Dunnstral shares my current reads and does this null lurkathon virtually every game. I do not think my line of reasoning yesterday on why he's not scum with esther is entirely right but I do not currently think esther is scum regardless. Preflips are again not my favorite.