Open 842: Diffusion of Power [Postgame]

[GuiltyLion]

in White Flag he replaced in, didn't give any real opinions, posted 3 times over the span of 3 hours, then didn't post again until the next day

I know I know activity != alignment and maybe he just has more free time at the moment but basically the way he's entered so far is what I would expect him, or anyone, to do as town. At worst, it's fairly agenda-less, he hasn't even done any performing around removing his vote or needing to read up

[fua]

I’ve played with scum Enchant and town Enchant and this isn’t scum Enchant. At least I don’t think it is.

[implosion]

Also to respond to this, the phrase "faking apathy", as I was reading it, still implies that they were not actually apathetic... ergo "genuinely engaged", the opposite of apathetic. Even lazy scum who is not apathetic can lazily give reads based on their engagement.

I already addressed this

this also feels like a semantic nitpick or misunderstanding, maybe "fake apathy for townpoints" isn't the best phrasing but it should be obvious I'm not saying redtea is actually secretly engaged and just faking apathy, I mean more like they're staying in their projected apathetic lane because no one is forcing them to do anything outside of that. Maybe I should have said "faking [being apathetic town] for townpoints", "fake" is meant to be operative on "town" not "apathy", but I can see how that's not well-written.

the context of my saying "lazy scum" should have tipped you off that I wasn't implying redtea was actually engaged

you did already address it, and you addressed it by admitting that you phrased it poorly, yet now you're saying I was misrepping you in a scummy way. I

did

think you were saying redtea was secretly engaged and just faking apathy, and now you're basically misrepping

me

by saying that I was saying that I still think that after you clarified when I was clarifying my original stance.

[fua]

Can we just kill redtea instead of talking in circles?

[Shirou]

I still genuinely cannot believe you had the idea that you would be pushed to E-1 tomorrow. This series of posts skyrocketed your chances of that happening, not lowered them.

You underestimate how much energy I've for this game

If people began trying to engage me tomorrow I would either just replace out or stop posting mostly, which would be an even worse look

I had already stopped replying to people on certain stuff. I'm just tired right now

I think you may have fulfilled your own prophecy in trying to avoid it.

blah blah blah

I do genuinely doubt and would be amazed if people still think eliminating me before results is better than a no elimination at all right now.

I don't think the worst case scenario that I'm limmed before my result on GL happens at all. Whether I'm limmed after that is kinda irrelevant imo.

I just think you guys lose most of the time if GL is scum here so I'm trying to avoid his slot endgaming as scum in all possible scenarios, and also doing it by using the laziest approach possible rather than trying to convince people by purely arguing.

[Cephrir]

IF they flip town though, we also should turbo eliminate one of GL/Meg/Tejate tomorrow imo.

Meg was responding to this

ah. darn.

still doesn't seem to mix that well.

[Shirou]

Can we just kill redtea instead of talking in circles?

Not until we agree on no elimination tomorrow and if someone backs down on their words everyone should interpret it as clear scum motivation.

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

[Enchant]

Why tomorrow, not today?

[implosion]

I think if GL is town then his read on Enchant is probably pretty reliable. I feel like them having been scumbuddies in white flag is probably very relevant meta experience both because enchant replaced into that game and GL would have seen it firsthand and because I think enchant's play in white flag was probably pretty readable in retrospect (i.e. probably had a lot of tells that GL here would likely be able to pick up on)

[Amazonian Legends]

Can we just kill redtea instead of talking in circles?

We can but I’d like to catch up on the day.

[GuiltyLion]

ehh ok implo fair enough, you're not wrong the subsequent further discussion isn't entirely fair on your end. I still think it's a bizarre assumption for you to have made about my original post, but litigating it further isn't going to change that

[Shirou]

Why tomorrow, not today?

I wanted it for today as well but I don't think I can convince people to do it unhappily...

[implosion]

I think no elim tomorrow is a reasonable plan because (1) of the reasons I've already stated why no-elimming is a good idea, (2) we have a claimed n2 doc and it's possible there's more of them so it's possible that there's no nightkill tonight (in which case, we would still gain the mislim and would eschew the plan) and (3) I am interested to see what Shirou claims on the cop check for obvious reasons.

[Tejate Raichu]

I'm not agreeing to any pre-emptive day 3 vote before day 3. Let's see our flip and N2 cop checks, then come to a decision on day 3.

[morph the cat]

@morph, he replaced into the game and started posting and giving thoughts without even reading

his position on Shirou is fairly nuanced ("I like the no lim plan", "scum would claim early here") that doesn't reflect an agenda in how he wants to treat Shirou

and I played with him as scum not long ago in that White Flag game we've mentioned a few times and he was a lot more disengaged and awkward, I'm he repped into that one too so maybe I'll go back and check his entry but this doesn't vibe how I remember him as scum

altogether it doesn't feel to me like the way scum would behave on entering a game with a bit of a delicate/tricky gamestate

I agree with a lot of this. My experience with Enchant is solely as a mod/spectator, though neuterhalf was in a large normal game where Enchant was scum and might have thoughts when work calms down for him.

His scum play in the Shakespeare game looked pretty weak, but that could have been a fluke-ish situation of replacing into a scum slot that had a few scumreads accumulated.

This is a similar situation of replacing into a slot that had accumulated some scumreads, with a different approach.

[implosion]

Regarding this series of posts by Shirou vis a vis Shirou, I can see the angle where Shirou is scum who feels the need to inject something of change into the game, especially if redtea is scum. But I mean if redtea does flip scum I don't think this is exactly a winning play from Shirou-scum. I don't think it's something Shriou-town can't do either. It doesn't really change my stance on Shirou as a whole.

[GuiltyLion]

I actually entirely forgot Enchant replaced in as scum in Shakespeare too lol

[Shirou]

I'm not agreeing to any pre-emptive day 3 vote before day 3. Let's see our flip and N2 cop checks, then come to a decision on day 3.

If any cop checks me or GL tonight though I feel like it's...a very non-optimal course of actions, so no other result except for a guilty would change our stances on what could be done due to results.

If there's a guilty elsewhere, sure, let's go get it, it wouldn't change a lot in that optimistic scenario, but baring a guilty I can't see how we couldn't agree on no elimination today already.

[Shirou]

ut I mean if redtea does flip scum I don't think this is exactly a winning play from Shirou-scum.

exactly

it isn't even close to a winning plan vs/compared to just playing normally and trying to survive by efforting, EVEN if I had done the dumb thing of openly defending a compromissed partner like that

/shrug

[Enchant]

Do you watching me in bathroom as well, you kinda know about me more than me.


Either way, it's actually simple.

The less town we kills, the less cops die.
The more cops alive, the more checks they provide.

Of course, it's standart QUALITY VS AMMOUNT, because it's kinda easier to hit mafia with check when half of town already bloodbathed, so there is simple choice.

Do we let cops work or we risking? Second is more rewarding, but we need to kill mafia not town for that lol

[Shirou]

VOTE: no elimination

I believe we should do this but I can vote redtea as long as most people explicitly agree with this:

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

[GuiltyLion]

I can see the angle where Shirou is scum who feels the need to inject something of change into the game, especially if redtea is scum. But I mean if redtea does flip scum I don't think this is exactly a winning play from Shirou-scum.

the thing is like it's all way too "self-conscious" (throwback Thursday)

if redtea flips scum, I would probably be on Shirou, but I don't think necessarily the rest of the town would be as well. and if redtea flips

town

I very much don't think Shirou would be in danger at all on D3, yet he's acting like I would have the towncred necessary to just roll everyone onto him after being on imag wagon D1 and after hard pushing a town!miselim!redtea on D2

he's extremely afraid of being the lim on D3, to the point of claiming now, and it's a bad claim because if he's town scum will just kill him as our known N2 doc is leashed onto fua

claiming today is just so bad as town, even in the town!explanation it's entirely for his survival and to push his scumread on me, rather than something that guarantees as much information as possible

I don't think it's a winning play but I can very much imagine it as a desperation play. if redtea flips scum today and Shirou (or even myself) gets copped, that's a rough gamestate for scum!Shirou, no matter who the third is. I think this was an attempt to all-in to try to bluff us out of limming redtea, while giving him a fighting chance tomorrow if redtea does go down. It really doesn't make sense to me coming from town, as I said it's borderline throwing to claim cop so early

[Cephrir]

I'm not agreeing to any pre-emptive day 3 vote before day 3. Let's see our flip and N2 cop checks, then come to a decision on day 3.

this. i haven't fully followed the logic about it and would prefer to hash it out with fewer distractions

also, i havent fully followed this 1v1. sry it seemed interestig but i just hhhhhh

[Amazonian Legends]

Implosion - this might have been answered, so if so just tell me you addressed it and I’ll get to it as I’m catching up on the day.

part of your argument is that gl is scum due to the awkward turn around on imaginality, but you also argue later that red tea was town. In the world where they’re both town, what would be his purpose? I might be misremembering but I don’t think anybody else was viable outside those two.

[Enchant]

VOTE: no elimination

I believe we should do this but I can vote redtea as long as most people explicitly agree with this:

@everyone Do we agree on no elimination tomorrow?

Remind me what your dying confirms?