Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]

[Sleepless Assassin]

Andante you aren't reading my posts... I gave you a whole reads list based on the premise of you being town, I'm in no way deadset on you being mafia.

I will even go ahead and UNVOTE: as Andante feels genuine in her last post.

I want to try to work with you... your Looker read could be tea but we can at least let the guy make an actual post or two first. Don't really vibe with the MC esther, I get that your theory is she's poisoning the well but I think her interpretation of Three's comment was valid. I say that because I got tripped up on the policy lim thing too.

Can you talk a little about this unvote, joqiza? Did Andantes one genuine sounding post outweigh your reasons for voting or was there more going on in your head that can't be drawn just from reading as an outsider?

[joqiza]

Can you talk a little about this unvote, joqiza? Did Andantes one genuine sounding post outweigh your reasons for voting or was there more going on in your head that can't be drawn just from reading as an outsider?

121 helps clarify what I was feeling at the time. Generally I pay attention the 'threadstate', especially Day 1, because... I'm operating with essentially no mechanical information, and I know there are two people at the table who have way more information than me. Getting embroiled in an early TvT isn't as detrimental as it might seem if you can keep your eyes open, realize the position you might be in, and figure out who's looking to profit off of the conflict. I think this is actually what Dwlee was doing in 116.

From 147 itself, her final sentence is what came across as the towniest to me. I'm not sure exactly why, I'd guess it's both the conviction and the olive-branch approach she was taking towards me.

> I feel like I'm trying to collect scraps of posts to build a sense of each slot
you sure that's how you feel? it sure seems like you're just deadset im maf, and refuse to actually look at anyone else. the team is mc and looker, why not go look there?

I recall I also found her stance on Looker towny. For two reasons, one, because at the time I believe I still thought it might hold merit. Two, because, independent of whether the read was accurate... I've found it's somewhat rare for a mafia member to express and push a strong meta-justified scumread on a villager, especially early-game. I think because it often provokes retaliation.

I should note that, even though I did say in 148 that it was "based off Andante's last post," I'm sure that the context of all her posts was in my mind. I can't say exactly, because, I'm working off memory a little bit. I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at any given time. I remember, for example, reading 122 at one point, and wondering if it was towny, because she seemed to struggle to conceptualize a world where she'd be mafia (she says, "assume for 1 second I'm town," but she should be asking, "assume for 1 second I'm mafia.")

I'm just trying to figure out if you genuinely sr me as town, or if you're maf pushing me since you've been tunneling me all game, like, assume for 1 second I'm town, who is my partner? Want to just help me find them?

But, I don't actually remember if I read that prior to posting 148, or if it's something that occurred to me while I was reviewing her posts later.

~

Also, I know that, like, the fact that there are things like this that I saw, but didn't bring up, isn't necessarily a good look for me, but. My issue as a villager has always been more on the side of conciseness and accuracy, rather than verboseness. If anything as town my volume is too loud, to the point where it drowns others out. I look back at posts like 122 and kick myself, because I know it's something I thought about and something in retrospect was probably extremely AI, but prior to the flip it was hard to know that

this

was something meaningful or worth bringing up, in comparison to the rest of her game.

[joqiza]

Oh I remember what I was looking at when I fell asleep last night. When I started pushing Dwlee, Joqiza started talking about "bad" and "Alice and Bob" comparisons. The one thing that stood out as a point possibly against Joqiza was the weird comment about Andante and Dwlee not seeming like scum together. It was like he was either setting up the post-Dwlee flip game already or maybe more likely trying to win over people who suspected Andante and convince them Dwlee is town for not being paired with Andante. This is the post I mean:

The real and sad tea is that Dwlee probably doesn't make that post if he's partnered with Andante. Which is devastating because I thought everyone else who talked besides those two has been at least a little bit towny and I was starting to get hopeful.

The fact that Joqiza ends up voting both Andante and Dwlee kind of fits with that being his intention. However, like everything else in this game, there's a town mold that it fits too which is not playing for associatives before a scum flip, simply noting them for later. The fact that he still ended up voting Andante, on surface level, seems to contradict the town world. However, a lot of info exists between Page 5 and Day 3 and a lot of that vote seemed to be PoE anyway. And again, the decision came late in the form of a hammer. So there's still nothing damning here but that is another thing on my mind that I'm trying to work through.

I actually agree with this point, in that, I think I can see how someone could read my early game play as a defense of Dwlee, by not team-reading Dwlee/Andante and then pushing Andante. What I'd offer here is that, although I was suspicious of Andante, I never wrote her off entirely and I did end up voting Dwlee near the end of Day 1 (even though I did end up switching to Three). The reality is for most of the game I felt like either Dwlee was pocketing Andante or Andante was pocketing Dwlee, and I was correct about that.

It's unfortunate for me that I ended up not committing to that read D3, but I don't hold that against myself, because... I just think Andante always dies in F3 if we ML in F5, and voting outside in F5 just means... less info than coming to the decision now (aka we'd need to correctly reason who last scum is conditional on town!Andante, but with Umlaut in the mix too, as well as lacking the knowledge that scum chose to kill Umlaut.) To be clear I'm not blaming Andante, I know she was playing hard and was doing her best for us, but at the same time, I think it was... not the worst ML I've ever been a part of. I don't think I personally was ever getting there on her, given how hard I was townreading the rest of you guys post D2.

Also, to help explain why I made the decision I made on D3: although I pay attention to associative reads, I will generally use more general "table" reads on the players themselves to make my final decisions. That's because, I think that associative reads are a bit easier to manipulate: I think there are some scum players out there, who can't really post well as a wolf, but still enjoy coming up with anti-spew or distancing plays. Coming into D3 after hammering Dwlee, I was feeling pretty justified in putting the associatives aside, because, I hadn't really found a partner for them, and they'd flipped scum anyway. Even though my Andante/Dwlee not-teamread ended up being correct, it's worth noting that I'd also had you/Dwlee and Roadkill/Dwlee as unviable. So, I don't think there was any particular value in them.

For me, I do the associatives exercise, not because I think it's some secret formula for reading the game, but because... it just gets me to squint at the game in a different way, if that makes sense? It's an opportunity to go through the game from the top, and think about the game from multiple, specific, perspectives, and even if I don't get the associative right itself, sometimes things click just from seeing the posts again and again.

[joqiza]

And if Roadkill is town, not being killed was clearly a big WIFOM plan that I wouldn't expect. Do you think you could link me to a scum PT from a game where you played well as scum? I want something that shows how you really think when the time comes to make a big late game NK.

The thing is, I can't really link you to any late game NK decisions I've made, because... I've never been a wolf in a late game NK position. The reason for that is

I've never actually made it that far as wolf

. In all my prior wolf games (with the exception of one turbo, which I'll link), I've been limmed early. In fact, outside of that turbo, I've never lived more than two consecutive game days as a wolf before getting limmed / game ending. And in multiple games, the only reason I've made it past the first day is because my partner got limmed before me.

I'm regarded in my home community as a polarized player. Past performance doesn't guarantee future results, so, I'm not trying to argue that I'm clear town. But I think I can make an objective case that, for me to be a wolf this game, I'd have to be significantly outside the scumrange of any game I've ever played before. There's one additional caveat, in that, two out of my five total scum games were played on the site EpicMafia, which no longer exists at all (owner pulled the plug.) So, I can't link them. I can, however, link this post, which references my EM games at a time when they existed, and also, like, shows that the game history and arguments I'm presenting here are truthful, and not something I've just made up ad hoc.

Probably the best scum game I've played, or at least the most relevant to this game, is Newbie 2003, which I played on this site. Here's the Scum PT for it. In that game, my partner and I distance pretty hard Day 1. I got cop checked Night 1, and got limmed. My partner was able to end-game, partially cuz she was a beast, but also with some help from some anti-spew associatives which we set up early.

That's why... I think that, just townreading me for hammering Dwlee, isn't necessarily.... I don't know that it's

not

a good reason to TR me, I'm just not sure it's actually something I'd shy away from? If I can make my perspective clear, it's like... the reason I'm town to me, isn't that I hammered Dwlee. Maybe as mafia, in that position, I hammer my partner to preserve towncred. But the reason I'm town is because as mafia

I wouldn't be in a position to try to save my own towncred in the first place.

Here is my other existing long-form scumgame. I subbed in D3 and I was limmed D4. I really only survived D3 because there was a red check on my partner. In my defense, in that game, there was already some suspicion on my slot when I subbed in.

Here's a 7-page turbo game I played on MU. I don't think it will be particularly informative but I'll link it as it's my only other wolf game still on record. I didn't really do any NK strategizing here as nights were only minutes long.

[joqiza]

As an FYI... I'm finding Sleepless's recent posting pretty towny, particularly the latter part of 546.

I'm almost positive I'd have killed you because I wouldn't see anyone eliminating you and I think Umlaut vs Joqiza would be an easy 1v1 to set up.

I try to be nice to everyone. I'm mainly just trying to lay put my thoughts and see if they make sense. As much as I want to work with whichever of you is town and come to the right conclusion, it's in my mind that whoever is scum has played a great game so I fully expect they'd be in my ear with "yes you make perfect sense, keep it up" hoping I feel confident and lay my vote. So part of me also feels alone and unable to trust anyone if that makes sense. So if I'm coming off cold, I apologize. It's the nature of the game.

Maybe it's weird that of the things he posted, it's these sentiments, rather than his actual questions toward me, that are making me think he might be the villager in this F3. I think it's because, I'm expecting both town and mafia to dive into my game, and ask me questions, at least at first. Right now I'm just looking for the "sentiments" of a villager, and I'm kind of surprised that, of the initial posting, it's SA that I'm jiving with better, when for most of the game I've felt like it's Roadkill who has put to words, like, "oh, yes, this is what I'm feeling right now."

I don't think Roadkill's posts themselves are super objectionable, and I think that's important to note, but just now from trying to fit two squares into a space only one can go, I'm... wondering, I guess.

I'll start with this:

also i cannot offer any examples of my play and i am sorry for that but i think here if i were mafia i would kill joqiza as the loudest, most consistent voice in the room and also...

he has intuitively matched up with me for almost the entire game as in, our thoughts mirror each other from what he says and.:: while if i were mafia i would have tricked him up to this point but when you have done so for so long when you say something “bad” that does not match it is a jarring moment that can cause an almost instant reevaluation that i don’t think i would be able to recover from gracefully and with the spotlight shining hard on the three of us

Your argument here, as I understand it (and correct me if I don't), is that you'd kill me in part because we were on the same wavelength for most of the game, and you'd feel, in F3, as mafia, that would make it more apparent to me that you were mafia. But, I think... that just doesn't quite feel intuitively right to me, that I'd be more likely to re-evaluate you than Umlaut would, simply because I and you meshed well for every day prior.

Am I misunderstanding? Do you... disagree, I guess? I'm not really sure what I'm hoping to get out of this, actually, as I think you will just say... yes, this is how I feel. But. I think I'm looking at your posts with a critical eye, and I guess this is one that... I could squint, and see as being out-of-place? So, maybe, if you're town, say it again in a way that... will make me not feel that way? I'm not sure if it's appropriate for me to ask that, but I'm not sure what else to do right now, other than be honest as to what I'm feeling in any given moment.

[joqiza]

Going to follow up on some threads tomorrow something that occurred to me is that, Roadkill's push on Dwlee in 259 is subsequent to mc esther being outed as cop in 245. (Though prior to this is 66.)

I think that, the segue makes sense for town!Roadkill, who was previously SR'ing esther but blah on Dwlee, to start SR'ing Dwlee in light of esther being revealed as (almost certainly) town. The scum!Roadkill narrative is something like... Roadkill just was deeply disappointed by Dwlee's posting, and as soon as cop was outed, Roadkill chose to bus, as he now knew that doing so wouldn't put him into autoloss (we are... most certainly in the two goons/1 cop setup, at this point.)

What is still really hard for me to wrap my head around, in a world where Roadkill is scum, is why posts like 365, 367, and 390 even exist. Both Umlaut and I are, at times on D2, pushing in different directions, so... why does Roadkill as scum so doggedly prevent town from shooting itself in the foot? "Why would they bus there," is the battlecry of every town that's lost to a bussing scum, but Roadkill's push feels like it goes beyond just a bus, it's... a determined Fuck Dwlee They Are Dying Today.

I think this is like, what I meant earlier, where it's a bit easier to see the bussing narrative from Sleepless at first glance, because, I can envision some early distancing where you just get In Too Deep. For Roadkill, it's like, this intentional choice at the end of D1 that he's going solo it without his partner, even though... I just don't understand why 390 exists in a scum!Roadkill world. It's a persuasive attempt to get me to hammer Dwlee in a game where... if I hammer town!Sleepless, and Roadkill/Dwlee go into LYLO with that level of distance, I feel like they always win.

[joqiza]

On a sort of not-game related note, two things:

1. The fact that Sleepless was reading Dwlee's name as 'Dwelee' rather than this being some nick-name, blows my mind. I don't think he's lying about that, because... it's too weird to make up, and I don't see any reason to lie about it regardless of alignment, but like... how did you not notice? Don't actually waste posts answering this, it's not important, just.... wtf lol.

2. I've spent an inordinate amount of time this game wondering what exactly catboi's fire emoji gif in 25 portends as an omen. At first I thought maybe that was the universe telling me, my read on Andante was fire (but also, like, I knew that if I genuinely entertained that notion, the universe would manifest her town just to punish me, so, that was a thing too.) Now the obvious answer is that Sleepless sniped the mafia team on the first page, and

that's

what was fire, but, like, see prior statement on the universe punishing me.

(For legal purposes the fire emoji thing is a joke, I don't listen very closely to the superstitious part of my brain, but I thought I'd mention it, cuz, well, I just think it's funny. One of you knows I'm genuine, so maybe you'll enjoy... knowing how silly my mind can be.)

[Roadkill]

ah... irl stuff has put the proverbial axe into my neck and i am finding it... difficult to really parse anything today, so i will try later or tomorrow morning;

to answer, the stuff about not being intuitively right i think you prove my point a bit when i stretch to the “wrong” which... ahhh... i don’t know if i have better words for you especially now and i’m sorry but maybe it is also how umlaut acted regarding andante end of day where he dug in so harshly and was unrepentant and that sort of attitude especially one that isn’t as.... cerebral maybe (not an insult i promise i’m sorry) is less likely to fling into me if i need to avoid that?

word salad right now to finish the first point

to even visit the wrong for me or rather the fake as in, a fake world where i try to describe an action i would take, it is... anathema to how i play to spill out my thoughts because fake thoughts cannot trail into each other nearly as easily? it’s caught out by someone who is really paying attention and i think that sort of attention is townier maybe?

also i’m sorry for not being ... more as in less objectionable but i don’t really have another way of being and i feel ... a little useless right now especially given present feelings so i will not be dwelling a lot here

(i’ve tried to catch the people paying attention this game in silly ways it makes me sad that they’re unnoticed)

(i did try to dwell; joqiza to your iso i read the beginning day but it felt too jumbled to make sense in the sense of scenes in narrative, can you go over your dwlee thoughts and feelings and if you have please requote because i am not trying to ignore even if they’re blatant but i cannot ... find it)

...and yes my mind is that othered right now, big details small details, i will return

[catboi]

Vote Count 4.01

Not Voting (3):

joqiza, Roadkill, Sleepless Assassin

With 3 alive, it's 2 to eliminate.

The post cap will reset in

(expired on 2022-02-14 01:00:00)

Deadline for Day 4 is February 23 at 12:00 AM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-02-23 01:00:00)

Reserve Posts Used

joqiza (1)

[joqiza]

to answer, the stuff about not being intuitively right i think you prove my point a bit when i stretch to the “wrong” which... ahhh... i don’t know if i have better words for you especially now and i’m sorry but maybe it is also how umlaut acted regarding andante end of day where he dug in so harshly and was unrepentant and that sort of attitude especially one that isn’t as.... cerebral maybe (not an insult i promise i’m sorry) is less likely to fling into me if i need to avoid that?

word salad right now to finish the first point

to even visit the wrong for me or rather the fake as in, a fake world where i try to describe an action i would take, it is... anathema to how i play to spill out my thoughts because fake thoughts cannot trail into each other nearly as easily? it’s caught out by someone who is really paying attention and i think that sort of attention is townier maybe?

For the first part of your quote here, I struggle with the logic a bit because, to me you're saying,

1. If I were scum, I'd kill joqiza because he and I have been on the same wavelength every day prior to F3, which would make me more apparent to him in F3

And further I think you're saying here:

2. joqiza expressing suspicion of me today proves point 1 a bit because, in the case that I were scum, this would be him catching on to me, and as scum I'd predict this and kill him. (Hence this universe cannot exist because joqiza is not dead.)

There's something a bit strange about the logic here, although I'm not sure exactly what it is. It's possible that I'm misunderstanding your argument entirely and you're saying, joqiza as town is likely to turn on me in F3 regardless of my alignment, thus I wouldn't keep him alive. That argument would make more sense intuitively. But I think that's not quite what you're saying.

I'll be honest that I'm not sure at all what you're communicating in the second part of the quoted post. I think you're saying that, your hypothetical reasoning for why you'd kill me as scum might not make sense because it itself is a second-order process for you this game (as you are town).

I accept that if it's what you are in fact saying, and I don't really think I ever expected to really... get too much from your nightkill analysis in the first place. What's really going on for me is that, my conception of Sleepless as a wolf was that he wasn't posting as strongly this game and would rely on strong non-associatives with Dwlee to carry him through endgame. But I think that Sleepless's posting early in this F3 has actually been quite strong, and simultaneous to that you've felt a bit... again, not bad, but dampened, maybe.

I worry about being too hasty and throwing away a winnable game if you and I are both in fact town. But... in my mind, I am holding on to the fact that, I know for me, there is a kind of determination I have over the next seven or so days we have: to post as strongly and as transparently as I can, to dive into the game and make clear my thoughts on it as many times as the post limits will allow me to. I feel this because I know that I have a green role PM and that the vast majority of my posting this game is stuff I could never replicate as a wolf. And I, frankly, feel the desire to make life as difficult as possible for whichever one of you figured I was a game piece worth bringing to this F3.

I can't know for certain that... the fact that I feel this way as town, and that I know I wouldn't feel the same as wolf, is something that

necessarily

applies to other players. But I do believe it

generally

applies, or at least I'm really hoping so... and right now it's SA who has echoed it closer.

We still have plenty of time, so I don't want to rush you, but... yeah. This is where I'm currently at.

Once I'm home today and at my computer I'll go through my posting like you asked and detail my Dwlee progression.

[Roadkill]

sorry i can’t be anything other than dampened right now and i wish it was not, the case that i am feeling dampened and that it spirals into that which i say and i will revisit, the idea of i think it useful the ... theorizing? i make about myself if it is going to help but i cannot be of help very much today if,

either of you i do not know who needs to hear something from me please ask and i will try

(to have direction right now will ... help? maybe to corral my thoughts into something shaped like not-meaningless and not-nonsense)

(i am sorry too to be handheld right now in giving thoughts but it is very different than it was a week ago for me and i want to help if i can)

[Roadkill]

... and please ask to clarify if my words are

circular or spread out

i hope, in a few days if there is patience to be... playing as i was before

[joqiza]

I don't think you necessarily need to clarify anything for me right now, but you do come across a bit jumbled in recent posts, which is why I'm re-stating what I think your arguments are in my own words.

I'm not so interested in the self-towncase. My preferred method is something like... I work with you as if we're town, and we need to explain why Sleepless is scum, and if we can't get there then we vote each other and maybe we both lose but it's not for lack of effort. And i do the same thing for Sleepless, but vice versa.

I don't really know you so I think arguing about stuff like... who you might decide to kill as scum, is going to be tough for me to parse compared to like, seeing your case on Sleepless or myself and determining if the arguments you present are bad faith or not. Offense over defense, basically.

Doesn't have to happen today.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Sorry that's a lot of words and I'm having trouble finding time to set aside to digest it all. This game has been on my mind a lot and it's still the same things that have me stuck. I can't find it right now for some reason but right on this page joqiza said something about he'd hammer Dwlee even as scum. And that is making this harder for me, not easier. Like if he'd really do that, then my reservations about him being scum are unfounded and it's probably just him. But offering that up knowing I'm townreading him for it would be just plain weird if he's scum. Unless it's not genuine and it's him saying "don't townread me" to appear less likely to be scum. It's classic WIFOM that can go either way and unfortunately, figuring that out means more than determining whether he makes that hammer as scum.

I'm not sure what to make of the self meta of being a poor scum player either. Again, if genuine, that probably makes joqiza town because this would have been a very good scum game. However, improvement or simply one good game are both things that are possible too.

I really still think the only argument against Roadkill is just the fact that he's still alive despite being the towniest player, which as annoying as it is for Roadkill because there's no defense, does have merit.

There's also the way this day has played out. Joqiza feels like full effort making a push to win the game where Roadkill feels more... I'm not sure of the word. Stuck? Lost? I feel like scum who is playing well feels pressure and confidence at the same time. You want to finish. You want to brag that you didn't get caught. And that feels more like Joqiza.

I'm still pretty stuck. I could lean Joqiza now and in an hour lean Roadkill. I've gone back and forth more times than I could even tell you.

[joqiza]

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

[joqiza]

To follow up on point 2, My "push to win" is reflective of my optimism that simply by posting I can work towards clearing myself because every post i make is genuine and all I need to do is be transparent. Yes that is possibly naive but I almost feel like it should be obvious that this is what I'm thinking and feeling. Is it not bleeding out of my posts? That is what I'm asking myself right now.

Also, I'm not sure which one of you is last wolf obviously, I can't ever be sure and this in particular is a tough game. So I think it's entirely reasonable for me to begin the game day by focusing on my own self-towncase. If you want to say, "okay, I'd prefer you focus on finding mafia" fine, I plan to do that, but my inclination to start with a self-towncase should be understandable. I also think the case itself is salient and confirmable.

[joqiza]

I think also, my frustration is like. You're saying you need to determine whether I'd hammer Dwlee as scum to figure out if I'm town or not. I just don't get why THAT is what determines my alignment. Do I not have posts this game that are difficult to make as a wolf? Have I not done so consistently throughout this game, with few drops in level? And, additionally, I have linked games that show that making such posts is indicative of my town game, on a specific meta level, although this argument shouldn't even be necessary so much as additional evidence imo.

So, why then, is the focus on an action that I

wouldn't

do as scum, instead of all the actions I have taken that I

can't

do.

Frankly if you're town then whatever mechanism by which you reach me being town will increase my equity, but I will be honest I think hinging my alignment on the hammer is just reading into a game of wine swaps, one which I'm not sure how I'd play. It's my posting in general that makes me a villager.

If you don't townread my posting and are only townreading the hammer, I don't know what to tell you.

[Sleepless Assassin]

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

Okay, well, that's a frustrating post..

1. To be clear (and I think I said this) I don't

know

that I would hammer Dwlee as scum, I just think it's not a good reason to TR me because I wouldn't necessarily locktown it if another player did it in a similar situation.

2. Thinking that I could be scum because I'm demonstrating WIM just feels so, so wrong-headed.

What's WIM?

And yea, you've done a lot of things to make me town read you but so has Roadkill so I'm trying to figure out which read is wrong. And the hammer is the biggest thing I've town read. So that's why if that's disproven it could show I was wrong. If you believe you have done something townier, I'm all ears. I've town read you throughout the game and even gave a town case on you Day 1 long before the hammer, so there was a lot more to my read than just that. Just that solidified it. So I was weirded out when you dismissed it.

[joqiza]

WIM = Wants It More. Essentially means reading into how much people are trying to win to determine their alignment.

My personal opinion is that WIM is usually personality indicative rather than something AI. The

specific way

in which my WIM has manifested, in this F3 and throughout the game (e.g. hyperposting) is probs a general towntell; something that town is more likely on average to do than scum. On a specific meta level it would clear me for those who know me. I've never heard WIM referred to as a scumtell, except in specific meta contexts where some people actually post better as wolf than as town. I've only ever heard debate as to whether it's towny or NAI.

There's also the way this day has played out. Joqiza feels like full effort making a push to win the game where Roadkill feels more... I'm not sure of the word. Stuck? Lost? I feel like scum who is playing well feels pressure and confidence at the same time. You want to finish. You want to brag that you didn't get caught. And that feels more like Joqiza.

If the above is the actual, genuine way you read things then we're fucked because I'm only going to exhibit this mentality for as long as this F3 continues. Of course I want to win, that would be true irrespective of my alignment. And the specific way I'm exhibiting this desire to win is by posting my thoughts in full-download fashion, because I believe they should only be able to reflect my lack of TMI, villageriness, whatever. If I were scum I'd still have WIM, but I'd be posting far more carefully, probably with a specific game plan in mind, rather than just doing the equivalent of shouting at the top of my lungs "I'M TOWN."

I've said my piece on the hammer, really, this might lose me the game but I think if I were hypothetically scum who was in a position where I was even capable of posting the way I posted this game as town, then yes i would probably cap Dwlee in the fucking face on D2. I think if that hypothetical world were true I'd be a Don Corleone esque player and I'd have no worries about being able to post myself to whatever position I want, so I'd probably just cut off the dead weight. OTOH if I were that good a player maybe I just kill town!Sleepless and force it in F5. Truth is I don't know and probably never will because we don't live in the world where I'm good enough at scum to make those decisions.

[joqiza]

If you believe you have done something townier, I'm all ears.

The true towniest thing I have done from my own perspective, of having self-knowledge of myself and how I play, are probably 121 and 124. The dual consideration of Andante as wolf/town and solving in both universes, isn't something I'd bother doing as scum in a table of people who don't know me, and even if I did, I wouldn't be able to make 124. It just wouldn't happen, I'm not creative enough.

I also think the way Dwlee posted towards me is deeply unpartnered, however, I would feel disingenuous pushing this argument whole-heartedly as I'm pretty sure Dwlee was in set-up mode from very early on in this game. From my perspective it is simply that their method of setup was to put their scum partner in their own PoE, but that kind of thing is a WIFOM decision and I've seen it the other way around.

Expanding on the above, even before it was confirmed to me that Dwlee had been bussed, I'd suspected that Umlaut was town (I re-evaluated him after the Andante flip) based partially off Dwlee's 21. Didn't think Dwlee would hip-fire a townread onto his partner like that in their very first posts. While reviewing I'd also noticed that in 250 and 437 they maintain both you (Sleepless) and Roadkill in their PoE. At one point during the night I'd come to the conclusion that Roadkill was going to die and then I was going to almost certainly vote you instead of Umlaut.

Hence your argument that you'd be more likely to kill Roadkill than Umlaut as scum has been agreeable to me, on top of the fact that you, sort of sound like you just believe it when you say it, because I actually spent some of the night expecting to end up in the F3 with you/Umlaut/myself with you as scum expecting that 1v1 between me and Umlaut. It's possible that you're scum who felt hellbussing your partner wasn't WIFOMy enough and so WIFOM'd the NK in addition to that, and/or maybe you're scum who even predicted that I'd re-eval Umlaut during the night, but those require a bit more... stretching to get to.

To be clear I don't think Roadkill killing Umlaut over myself really makes all that much sense either, and I think it's probably a tactical error on his part if that ends up being the case (though feels weird to criticize pre-emptively, especially if the game ends with you voting me and him winning). What I'm considering here is whether he as scum would think he could maintain the TR on him I've had all game. This is why I was picking at his nightkill hypothesizing earlier.

[joqiza]

(i did try to dwell; joqiza to your iso i read the beginning day but it felt too jumbled to make sense in the sense of scenes in narrative, can you go over your dwlee thoughts and feelings and if you have please requote because i am not trying to ignore even if they’re blatant but i cannot ... find it)

Getting back to this now; I'm actually not sure whether you want, like, my thoughts on Dwlee now, post-flip, or whether you were asking for a walkthrough of my Dwlee progression throughout the game, but I'll give both.

My first real thought entering the game was that 17 was turbo-scum and I (ironically) came the closest I've ever come to lolhammering. Fortunately my better angels won out / the image of Andante flipping PR and me getting yeeted the next day and then catboi banning me from ever joining his games in the future, was enough to get me not to instahammer her.

The reason I bring up Andante is that my Andante/Dwlee reads were kind of tied together for most of the game. Dwlee's first content post is 21 which is dismissing my read of 17. I reacted with 23 because I wanted to make sure I was heard and understood. However, independently I was suspicious of Dwlee's post in the context of already scumreading Andante, because Dwlee's reason to dismiss Andante's line didn't match up with what Andante had actually said. It, of course, occurred to me that Dwlee could be scum knighting for town!Andante, but at that specific period of time my mind was on an Andante/Dwlee team.

For the next couple pages after that I was basically just waiting for Andante to return and watching to see how I felt about the other slots. I believe at the time I mostly felt that everyone was towntelling (minus Andante who was absent)

besides

Dwlee, who was just null. So, I was beginning to narrow in on an Andante/Dwlee universe. Then Dwlee posted 74, which as I expressed in 76, made me reconsider. I think I've expounded on my justification for that read many times, to re-hash it again, read 163 and 363. It's unfortunate that I changed my mind on what was originally a correct deduction, but in my defense, this game is

quite

hard.

Following Dwlee's 74, Andante returned to the game and the whole thing between her and I began. I don't really have much to add there, and I can sort of, see the scum case that I used a not team-read on Dwlee/Andante and a push on Andante to justify, not pushing a scummy partner; but as I said before, my defense is that I

did

work with Andante, eventually managed to... not quite find her, but accept the possibility that she might be town, and from there correctly deduced that Dwlee was the scum in their pairing. I voted Dwlee in 205. I'll note that in the interim they posted 189, which did nothing to convince me they were town.

Looking at the VC again I also voted Dwlee on D1 when the counterwagon was mc esther and tied the wagons, so I do think by doing so I put Dwlee at real risk of elimination prior to mc esther being outed: hence this is a good look for me. Unfortunately for me I guess, I switched to Three in 299; this was a combination of Umlaut's arguments, my own suspicion of Three, and also, just a lingering suspicion that Andante was scum spewing Dwlee town, and if we limmed them Andante was going to make me out to be the Great Satan for daring to scumread Dwlee's meager posting.

I was busy during the very end of D1, when Dwlee posted 250 and you followed up with 262. It's possible that if I'd more availability in that time frame I'd might have switched to Dwlee, I honestly don't know / I don't remember my sentiments during that period of time. It also isn't the biggest deal to me personally because it is confirmed from my perspective that scum was willing to cut Dwlee loose by that point.

D2 I remember I was also quite busy for the first half of the game day. Coming back my main agendas were parsing the Dwlee/Looker conflict as well as, Andante's like, reads, in general. I think 359 is a decent summary of where I was, returning to the game. I never did end up diving into the Dwlee's activity stuff very much, tbh. I simply started reading Looker as town based on his reaction to my vote and his posts following that, and from there my mind turned to Dwlee/Sleepless. I think my progression from there is like... I don't know that there was an evolution on Dwlee themself, it's more that, I started circling back around to Andante being town, which muddied the SA/Andante team, and Dwlee started seeming more likely just through PoE.

I should also mention that 390 was convincing and helped... reassure me, I guess? I was reading you very solidly as town at that point. That's why, as I've said, I have to give credit where it's due and it's hard for me to understand why that specific post exists if you're scum.

I think I'd largely made my mind up by 407 and 408. Posts like 409 made me nervous, because, random scummy push from Andante maybe spewing Dwlee town, but by that point I was considering that my not-teamread on Dwlee/Andante was just trash.

For my mindset in the lead-up to hammering Dwlee, I felt like, if I hammered town and we went to F5, with as little information as we had available, there was no chance that we'd manage to pull of two scum lims in a row. This is one of the reasons I did the protracted hammer, the other being I just think it's good policy to extend EoD's for more material from every slot. I was pleased to see a scum flip and obviously, if Sleepless is last wolf, it wasn't really some kind of magnificent determination from me, but in the other case I'll be at least happy with that one decision regardless of how this game ends.

~

This took me longer than I expected to pull all the posts together, so going to take a break and then come back in a bit for my post-Dwlee flip thoughts. I hope this summary is helpful to whoever needs it.

[joqiza]

I can't find it right now for some reason but right on this page joqiza said something about he'd hammer Dwlee even as scum. And that is making this harder for me, not easier. Like if he'd really do that, then my reservations about him being scum are unfounded and it's probably just him. But offering that up knowing I'm townreading him for it would be just plain weird if he's scum. Unless it's not genuine and it's him saying "don't townread me" to appear less likely to be scum. It's classic WIFOM that can go either way and unfortunately, figuring that out means more than determining whether he makes that hammer as scum.

I'm not sure if this helps, but, if I self-analyze then I think the reason that I'm even arguing against myself in this fashion is because letting it stand would feel almost like poisoning the well. Intentional or not, I feel like you're framing my towniness as being conditional on something I myself think is shaky. My instinct is to not allow myself to be associated with an argument that I don't quite believe. A part of me does want to just go, "whatever, take it," but for better or worse I've chosen to... tear down what I see as a poor foundation, in hopes that I can build back up a town-case based on what I think are firm, logical reasons.

[joqiza]

[joqiza]

[catboi]