Micro 1041: Geriatric F11 [Postgame]

[Roadkill]

VOTE: andante

e-1.

[Roadkill]

i've seen town lolhammer once or twice, but it's a rarity that people fear way more than they actually should.

So first off, I'll be gone till the 18th/19th, didn't really intend to be here now, so I'll make it quick.

Since when has it ever been a good idea to instantly put someone on e-1? like, not just cause it's me, but like, what even?? town lol hammers all the time, but whatever, if yall don't vote me out for lols in the next 2 days, I can't wait to play!!! (I'd advise not hammering me... but whatever) At this moment Roadkill is probably my top SR, like, carelessly putting me at E-1? Does not feel like it comes from town at all.

i put you on e-1 because i am disinterested in rvs usually, and doubly-so in a game with limited communication. it was beneficial to do something that gets a stronger response than throwing a vote elsewhere. i like the fact that you're immediately snapping back at my vote. though:

1) what about it was careless, the fact that it was done at all?
2) what incentive do you think town would have to randomly hammer there? do you not think that scum are more likely to lolhammer?

[Roadkill]

It would have strengthened my read if Roadkill was a new player. He clearly isn't so that weakens it. I still don't have a stronger scum read than Roadkill/Dwelee.

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Roadkill was for the Andante vote, yes. Town are usually too paranoid to do that because it opens up dumb hammer possibilities where scum feels more confident it won't happen and if it does, they expect the hammer to look worse than their vote anyway.

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

VOTE: mc esther

Umlaut is very likely town

Why and why?

Unvote, Vote Dwelee

what about my experience level changes your read on me?

though, you are right, i am not a new player -- and in my experiences through play, people actually judge the e-1 vote a lot more than the hammer (because it can be called an accident, a lolhammer, 'moving on the game', etc, with a lot of room for whimsy versus the

intentional choice

of putting someone on e-1.) and this is a bit of self meta, but i don't think that i would be comfortable calling attention to myself like that in a smaller game, knowing how it'd be judged.

how are you connecting the points between dwlee's entrance/awkwardness and the andante vote?

[Roadkill]

UNVOTE:
I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.

I like Umlaut for town right now so I'll join this
VOTE: mc Esther

Bus your buddy and vote Roadkill with me.

I don't like to bus in micros though

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

My post was in reference to the fact that we only get 10 posts per day, but someone has to be the first to use one to get the ball rolling onto something. Your read of my scum play is pretty good as far as not really /wanting/ to post, but your interpretation of my post and its actual meaning are completely divorced

If that's true, you're a lot more concerned with the post limit than I am. Which isn't impossible. But it seems weird right out of the gate like that.

Some games I go absolutely wild with posting lol

so in reference to your explanation of your scum play, is there any reason that you aren't going wild in this one?

21 is the only real 'content' post you've made, and it's a little hedge-y.

[Roadkill]

This on the other hand is bad

no it's not

UNVOTE:
VOTE: three

fourth on the andante wagon, third on me

actually he was just third on both wagons, that's not anywhere near as bad.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

burning through my postcount with trivial errors gogogo

i agree with 41, that this sort of arbitrary jumping from vote to vote is +town. i think that scum would feel more compelled to provide a serious reason beyond wagon placement.

[Roadkill]

Roadkill, sometimes new players roll scum and just start voting ant town that gets run up without thinking of the consequence. The fact that you're not a brand new player means you weren't doing that. It's still an opportunistic looking vote, but you having experience means you likely are aware how it looks and might be more likely to avoid it ad scum than a new player would be. My reply to joqiza stands, but it isn't nearly as strong as the opportunistic newbie tell would have been.

how are you connecting the points between dwlee's entrance/awkwardness and the andante vote?

It's Page 2 of Day 1. I'm not looking for connections.

alright, thanks for explainin'.

and i think you meant to quote me here; i asked about the two being connected because:

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

here, you said that the unvote from the andante wagon confirms... that dwlee didn't want to post/that they were awkward? i assume that it confirms/reinforces the read, but i wasn't sure.

edit: i feel like me moving my vote right now is more of an empty gesture than anything, if i'm honest; after people post a bit more/later tonight, i'll look to see where i want to place it. but i'm slow to... get into a game, so to speak, get reads that are worth pursuing.

also, i'm unsure if sleepless's vote will count, but i think dwlee is on e-1.

[Roadkill]

so in reference to your explanation of your scum play, is there any reason that you aren't going wild in this one?

21 is the only real 'content' post you've made, and it's a little hedge-y.

That it's page 2 (now 3) of a game? What kind of a question is this

the type of question you ask someone in a game where you know content isn't manifested through 30 pages in 24 hours, and the type of question you ask someone on e-1. the latter is more of the "huh?" thing for me, because... you're just shrugging at it from what i can tell.

you're throwing out reads without a lot of 'oomph' behind them, and not really pressing on the wagon itself, and just letting it linger. which feels a bit just... useless? for the town, in that. people are sitting here with their votes and there's no response to glean from it. like you're playing dead until it becomes nothing or... something.

even posting this feels like i'm just inviting the "what do you want from me" response or there's not enough but... bah.

[Roadkill]

This on the other hand is bad

no it's not

Oh well if you say so.

Everyone, Esther has clarified that her post isn't bad, nothing to see here.

"Bad" is a loose term, anyway. What did you even mean when you called her post bad? Did you mean it was a post a wolf was more likely to make? Did you mean it was anti-town or illogical? Did you simply disagree with what it was saying? Those are all valid interpretations and even though I assume it's the first I can't actually be sure.

You could be calling her post bad and she could be denying it and you might even both agree with each other but you have different definitions.

I've used "bad" as casual shorthand myself so I'm not trying to act superior. I've just given it some thought and maybe instead of calling things "bad" (or, on that subject, using the impossibly vague and somewhat offensive "gross") we could make it a habit to explain what we mean in precise terms.

Bad post. Bad vote.

SA, Three, mcE, roadkill town.

Phone posting so unlikely to do words proper until a bit later in the day assuming noone gets limmed prior to then.

I like these early wagons and have a bit to digest.

UNVOTE:

i want to have more to say about wh4t but the flippant response at the start of this post short-circuits me into a loop of "rebellious scum? aloof town?" over and over.

[Roadkill]

i also want to say that i

think

umlaut is a little towny for his process of reading. in that, whenever he presents reads on mc/sleepless it's... well. a process. he starts from one place and ends up at another one, with a different conclusion from the beginning. i think that if he was doing this sort of thing over and over it might look a little more forced, like he was showing off how towny he was thinking about things and reconsidering (which would look silly if done x9 times on day 1), but it looks like he's just reading as he goes and givin' his thoughts.

(granted, i know scum can do that too. buuuuuut, whatever.)

as for the reads themselves, umlaut: why do you think scum would have an issue presenting something they might do and then subvert it (58)? the post you linked, 38, isn't a very intense descriptor of play and even has it stated as some games, as in, sometimes dwlee will not go wild, so it's... it's not really difficult to go against something you only do

sometimes

.

also, is 19 really a misrep? you're stretching, but also... the context makes sense? we were around rvs, and andante mentioned lolhammering, to me that feels like... the connection made that andante fears being lolhammered in rvs/that point of the game.

(i have some other thoughts on your joqiza read but i think they're best chewed upon until you reply to him/if you do.)

(i should mention though, despite the beginning of this little dive into you i'm mulling over the fact that you've sort of... followed along in reads twice here, or echoed what has been said already. i don't know if you notice this, and if you did you'd be too self-conscious to do that as scum. did you notice that you echoed a similar sentiment about sleepless's confirmation thing in 39?

maybe it doesn't mean anything, because there can only be so many opinions in the world, but if nothing else it's... interesting to me.)

[Roadkill]

I'm annoyed. Someone get in here and fight me geriatric style. We can throw wheelchairs and shit

[Roadkill]

busy today -- will catch up tomorrow, though:

I still have no idea what the Dwlee turbo mode game comment here means, and it's weird to me that she typed this up and posted it as if I would have any kind of understanding as to how whatever she is talking about should influence a teamread on them.

isn't using weird here the same as using bad?

[Roadkill]

i want to have more to say about wh4t but the flippant response at the start of this post short-circuits me into a loop of "rebellious scum? aloof town?" over and over.

Do you think the flippant response + four early unexplained town reads, weighs more toward town or scum? I'm mixed on them; I personally don't see a scum agenda in it, it feels like it's going against the grain a bit since they aren't consensus reads. But the "bad post bad vote" response feels very much like they're trying to get a reaction out of Joqiza. I'm also not sure why they unvoted instead of moving their vote, I'd like an explanation from them about that and their reads.

i think it's a little towny to see someone protest something and, essentially, flip them off. fight-me energy though is one of those tells though that i think that... people playing scum pick up as one of the easy tricks to dole out for early cred; because why does scum get all mean and snippy when they're trying to win friends onto their side? it's a little towny but it sends me into a loop going back and forth.

the reads themselves are pretty whatever without reasoning. like i said at the time, i don't think there's much i can say about the slot that hasn't explained itself.

(the below is a big, big stretch, so i'm hiding it.)

Spoiler:

if nothing else i think that the unvote aligns with someone who does have plans to revisit at another point, to explain, to move somewhere else rather than stay where they were. which is also a little towny. leaving games midway is a bit crass to read into, but it doesn't

feel

like a 'oh no, i can't provide content!' move to me.

[1/10]
(i am being a bit evil and not working despite being clocked in but am still clocked in so... will see how much i catch up.)

[Roadkill]

I doubt the speed of the wagon indicates anything at all

faster wagons tend to have maf on them (or at least, that's popular knowledge i absorbed at some point), but on reflection im not sure that necessarily holds true in rvs (again, if it even holds true at all). i'll admit, i couldnt actually look at that wagon and pick out a vote that makes me go "this is the suspicious one".

Going against the grain on Dwlee here, I don't think they're hard definite town or anything like that but 38 seems like a difficult post for scum to make since it basically says "as town I'm likely to do [the opposite of what I'm doing here]"

i like this read

i was going to sheep the joqiza vote but actually i dont really agree with any of the points made.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: wh4t

i don't think the speed of the wagon means much (granted, i am on it.) but i disagree with that 'popular knowledge'. from my experiences it's a Thing That Happens depending on the game. have seen town speedwagon scum, scum speedwagon town, etc.

your wh4t vote confuses me a little bit... you do unvote and move to joqiza later, in 84 and explain you liked the reads in 85, but then, what was the motivation to vote wh4t to begin with/what did you see at the time that was scummy? (i ask it this way because in 85, you explain things as towny/things you dislike but understand town may do.)

I am typically still memeing this early idk what games you're looking at

I don't really see any memeing either. : /

Do you have any takes, preferably hot?

Three I'm starting to think you're not thinking when you say things like this

My takes are umlaut town, mc esther scum. I don't have enough experience with her to know if the vote hopping is normal from her but I think it's slightly scum-indicative.

I am thinking, though I don't really have a normal thought process I guess. Could you explain what you believe I said wrong/thoughtlessly here? I don't see it.

I agree with Umlaut town, Esther scum is more of a hot take though. She's null town for me, I just want to see her engage with the game a bit more. Is everyone else null for you?

I feel like it's kind of an unspoken rule when signing up for this game that you won't just meme around / you'll try to be serious about it. That's kinda the point of this rule set.

Andante is sorta townie.

@Roadkill

I'm not going wild because serious + post restriction + page 3. I think that should be pretty obvious. I don't think the content so far is super enlightening on a cursory glance which is pretty much the response you predicted but yea

this is... a pretty disappointing response, even if i expected it.

even the andante read that follows is pretty... ah...

it's a lackluster pushback on someone to say "don't understand your vote there", i guess. condescending without making an effort to bridge the gap?

do you have anything else to give right now? (i'm sorry if this is annoying, like poking a sleeping bear, but... it's still disappointing to me to not

give

more when everyone else is...)

[2/10]

edit: welcome, looker!

[Roadkill]

reading through the past page or two with the isoing and back and forthing is a bit much for me right now, would rather do when i am all comfy.

Something caught my eye here. Let me get this straight: you're saying that upon your return to thread, your method of catching up was to ISO slots one by one.

Instead of... just reading the 5 pages of the game?

WTF?

I don't think this is actually that strange (I did pretty much that to form reads on the players in my "that leaves..." category in my earlier post) but even if it were strange, how is it alignment-indicative?

To be clear, I don't find ISOing strange, I just find it strange to return to a game after two days and not choose to at least skim the thread before diving into ISO's and putting out conclusions on slots. I've always used ISO's as tools to better understand a game rather than as the main method of delivery, so that was difficult to swallow.

Also, like, I just had this moment while reading through her posts. She called my question to Esther meaningless, and I thought, "was that question really meaningless? I don't think what Esther said was clear at all. Does it make sense to call this meaningless?" And I got the sense that, andante hadn't even really thought about whether my question made sense in context, she just called it meaningless, just because.

Then I get later in her posts and she says she's ISOing and I realize she's numbering her posts for each slot, and I have this mental facepalm moment, because I realize what's happening. She's going through the ISO's one by one, and like, the post Esther made, and the question I asked her, aren't even connected in her brain, they're like two completely and unrelated spheres. And I just think Oh My God.

Do I think it's a wolf? God I really want it to be a wolf, and I think I have the right to think it's a wolf because wolves have every incentive to do that, just ISO players one by one and take surface level readings of their posts and call them scum. But do I really REALLY think it's a wolf? I don't know, I just think Oh my God. She is deadset on me being scum when I'm ISO 4/10 and she's read less than half the players in the game. Oh My God.

however...

this might seem a little... 'really dude?' but did it take you that long to realize that andante was doing individual isos?

and onto points that probably matter more, what is the incentive for andante to approach the game like that, as either alignment? you've touched a bit on why she does as mafia, but why as town?

(you seem like you enjoy these sort of tangents/thought experiments in game but if it's not something you'd want to use up a post on i understand, but i think that... ah. understanding the motivations a bit or trying to helps sort beyond the 'oh my god' state you're in?) (i have my own interpretations as well that i'll offer if you want but it defeats the point a bit, to go first when i'm asking.)

also, do you consider yourself a dramatic person/have a flair for it?

[3/10] (my spoons are rattling away swiftly, so i'll return later with more comfort/attention.)

[Roadkill]

hi, sorry, my irl has been... pretty bad, lately, so my attention waned.

VOTE: mc esther

i questioned mc in 132 but didn't receive a reply, and mulling over it i feel like... mc esther was content to follow behind a very loud, obnoxious (sorry.) voice in andante until andante decided to turn her wrath onto mc. and that's why no stance about joqiza came until after the vote, despite it making the vote not make sense in retrospect. i think that if mc flips scum, andante is town. it's too ballsy to hold hands with your scum partner and follow a push they make happily like that.

[Roadkill]

sorry for my absence -- irl stuff happened.

UNVOTE:

i'm... pretty behind but i saw the claim, and a few other odds and ends.

[Roadkill]

ahh... my motivation is so low right now, i'm sorry everyone. i feel like i've been kicked around like a soccer ball. i might just end up jumping on the largest wagon so long as i don't have a strong townread on it.

(i townread joqiza and looker the most right now.) which... leaves a pretty big pool, so i suppose i would have to shear out... another name, because of the claim.

a lot of my read on andante was dependent on mc being scum, i.e. following a loud voice for protection/smokeshield... i suppose that doesn't stand now as a reason to not vote andante but i don't think there's interest there so perhaps it's moot to even dwell on her as an option for today.

so that's... four people eliminated from "vote" today and four remaining, umlaut, dwlee, sleepless, three... i'd take out umlaut as well because there is no traction there.

... and i'm left with what everyone else seems to want today which feels... weird. i don't like when games feel "easy" or when everyone is lining up relatively neatly.

but i suppose i have some thoughts that aren't... neat, the looker read, but i don't think the vanity wagon is something scum feels the need to do in a gamestate where people are throwing out multiple wagons to pick and choose and push with more success than letting a partner potentially get ran up (which, if right now my thoughts are accurate, they are in danger?) it just seems silly and futile. to be unviable is to be unhelpful, go against the grain for little reason. i guess it's, "i rejected this option (a scum partner) but i don't want it to be obvious so i'll reject this too and be all contrarian" but again... silly.

...this is a mess, sorry, it's pretty on the fly thinking out loud while i'm distracted by real life. it's long-winded to end up saying "i am okay sheeping" but... the compulsion to share my thoughts is strong regardless.

edit: if the choice is between looker and three i will vote three.

[Roadkill]

mmmmm.

[Roadkill]

i sort of ... don't want vote three after 258.

which feels very... dumb.

but there's this ... ah.

to list out a bunch of team-solves on day one and to use it as a reasoning for why you want to kill someone feels... weird. "bad" even.

maybe it's because i feel it used as... a way to push an 'easy' slot and omgus the other (even if it's quite a bit later than my disappointment in dwlee) and then still go for the third, "safe" option in three.

is anyone interested in voting dwlee...?

[Roadkill]

:/

it’s... a little frustrating to have to defend a weaker ending to a strong start when the reasoning is personal, but... irl has been rough and it’s sapped away at time and energy. i joined this game specifically because i often lack those things, and having a lower energy reserve pulled on by other things... yeah, sucks.

i would have been on dwlee eod but i didn’t return to the site until after the day ended. i don’t think it would have went through regardless and it’s a bit moot to say now, after the fact, but the dwlee’s eod bothered me.

for a tiny bit of self meta, i’m pretty slow moving and even the post that dwlee made, where they spoke about both myself and looker being optimal for... being more likely to be on more teams? it wasn’t enough to move me. but the three-post was. i’ve been thinking about a way to describe it better other than “my intuition is screaming at this” but...

the best i can get is that i think it looks like solving to list out a bunch of teams and say they work. you throw out some reads and then you’re left with a pool you can organize a bit and go “these people are best get them” and it’s... hard to work against that? there’s not really a standing for people to poke into that sort of thing. maybe because i’m one of those people i’m looking into it more but it feels..: baseless, especially when you follow up with “will kill someone else though” and tag on a reasoning that towns will accept.

~

it’s also a little frustrating that i don’t scumread looker. he seems... caught up on my early vote, without i guess engaging a bit more with everything else that followed? “i don’t believe it” isn’t something i can engage on in kind, because you either do or don’t believe me for something that early. i don’t think either that it’s fair to use against me my lack of a vote when i feel like the catalyst to the counterwagon in a game that was fairly slow until the end.

but *fair* isn’t really... applicable here in a read sense; i think looker is town despite my grumpiness through his actions and also his predecessor’s, but this is sort of an... open invitation for looker to talk to me? rather than going back and forth through pseudo-interactions.

(also to andante, given she pointed out the lack of energy eod. i should have more now, when i’m home and it’s the weekend. what do you think about the dwlee counter wagon?)

(what does /everyone think about it?/)

VOTE: dwlee

[Roadkill]

also, talking about roles sometimes makes me feel like “ahh, don’t do that...” but for here i think it’s prudent to also ask for opinions on an admittedly hot take:

i don’t think we have a doctor in this game and i think that if vote anyone who claims it, they should still die. that we had a cop that died, and a doctor that either wasn’t on them or was successfully roleblocked despite no one claiming it feels... unlikely?

(i considered not mentioning this to see if anyone would claim it if pushed but that feels unlikely too?)

(i also do tbis because i have seen towns lose their willpower against mafia who drop a healing claim for fear of screwing themselves over and in a rush to move wagons potentially later down the line with limited posts i’d rather talk about this now when we still have the luxury of time)

[Roadkill]

i’ll be around more after work — it’s excited to have the energy to post and think again! ^.^

[Roadkill]

this feels pretty... poor for the game's health. i agree with the sentiment of "get stuff done" but... what should we do? as in what do you think is /important/ to do?

(i feel stuck in a pattern; i want to vote dwlee, because i have no real reason to find them towny; they are not providing any reasons at all that would make me shift, so i sit and wait.)

if they are scum, i am unsure if their partner is currently voting them. in these sorts of situations... you bank on apathy to be a shield of sorts, beyond just the lack of reads to go off of it's, "town will latch onto something, eventually, that is not me" and they float away. i think that a partner is most likely not wanting to do a lot right now until town bites at something, which is safer, a way to free someone.

bussing right now feels... counterintuitive as well. to a gamestate where you cannot be caught out by an investigative curious if your interactions are /real/ or not, to a game where you need only two more miselims to win. easier to keep a partner alive, unless they are /entirely/ unwilling to do anything. which... i don't know if dwlee is the sort of player who gives a partner a middle finger, so to speak.

so, purpose then, i guess. to nothingness in play beyond "heehoo no associatives."

... i'm rambling because i think it is in our best interests to have conversation for now, while we wait for the slot to do anything.

[Roadkill]

the issue with that though, "partner might not be bussing", is that .. i think the people not voting are towny? which is a headache.

also, i do think that dwlee -is- on e-1. sleepless, myself, andante?

[Roadkill]

looker is right, you’ve been active since this day’s begun in other spaces, even if it wasn’t a lot yesterday.

why haven’t you been active here? i assume you saw the wagon.

[Roadkill]

i think umlaut is talking after the fact? after the clarification on deadline.

~

i don’t think scum!looker goes down the avenue of exclusivity/friendship here because i don’t think it... makes sense in the context of what is happening? (maybe i see this because of my own anonymity with the people here) but it seems... an ill-advised, hostile move as scum without a meaningful push /after/ to find an in with anyone.

it’s at this point more than a little distracting and frustrating that dwlee continues to not engage and... we’re moving away. people are suggesting other people and we’re rewarding them for twiddling their thumbs. i understand there has to be a partner out there but i fear that if we don’t hit said partner today we’ll end up doing this /again/ tomorrow. it’s disheartening.

(despite my griping for it all... i do fine at least some of the other pushes illuminating. it... i wish i could say i’m soundly on one side of things such as umlaut and andante’s push on sleepless vs sleepless but... sleepless has consistently pushed dwlee despite the departure to mc esther and i just... ugh. i know that umlaut and sleepless aren’t paired right now...?)

i hope the joqiza slot arrives soon.

[Roadkill]

sigh.

[Roadkill]

why is looker preferred over sleepless? i’ve expressed some reasons why i find looker towny but there aren’t any reasons offered recently for him to be scum. (as in reading over this page)

and apologies in advance if i’m more... snippy, but the progression feels very frustrating right now game wise...

(and i would appreciate it if people could expand more on what they think was going on eod yesterday if they’re unwilling to vote dwlee; that a counterwagon was manifesting to town for... what reason?)

scatterbrained a bit trying to explain but that’s... the wagons and flip are concrete evidence... i don’t count the nightkill because i don’t think it says anything beyond “kill power role” but it feels like everyone’s turning a blind eye to important things.

(even if my reasoning isn’t a slam dunk for dwlee i feel taunted by them being alive and just not ..: doing anything but still being everywhere else.)

[Roadkill]

and i’ll also say despite any reasons provided i feel... looker has done enough Things for me to not want to vote there so if i have to move my vote will probably default to sleepless because i can see umlaut’s case a bit but ... i’ll be doing so unhappily.

[Roadkill]

i guess to put it this way...

what is the impetus for a scum!looker and a scum!sleepless, at eod, to decide that a counterwagon on town is a good idea? to set up dwlee, okay, but that sort of move ties them together later down the road? i think that they could have done a lot of other things that aren’t as blatant as “okay, let’s vote this person together it’s fine if they flip” (because, though i think the chance was lesser than three flipping, we’re i able to vote dwlee then suddenly anyone could flip onto them)

i just... what is the motivation for the scumteam if that’s the world we’re in? having enough confidence that they’ll look better off day2?

(these questions aren’t... snide either but i felt like they could be taken that way)

[Roadkill]

mmm... from me i think that this might mean a bit less as noted dwlee pusher but in a game where the majority of people have offered at least some reason to be town, indifference is +mafia. i don’t like to think of things so simplistically but... everyone else cares a lot more. people are willing to put in the work.

maybe it’s uh... a bit selfish too to really want dwlee dead today but if they are town and they don’t die... we’re sent into eliminate or lose with a slot that does not promises us anything. they could become more active in that situation, but i’m wary that they would. and then i’m scared that i’m left alive, and i just keep yelling about the same wishes to kill them. (i would evaluate more in that situation but... i don’t know what other conclusions i /could/ come to about them when there’s nothing to even change my mind posted).

andante i think is town or at least not mafia with sleepless because... tempting fate when there is no real need to like that is silly for a mafia to do. it’s good distancing if they are buuuuuut it runs the risk of sleepless just dying. (actually i don’t know if it does because a bluff like that is effective if it is one buuuuut... whatever).

(had fleeting thoughts about umlaut/dwlee as well for the timing of the sleepless (?) vote but it feels unfounded for the rest of umlaut’s posts the same way it’s unfounded i thought joqiza was intentionally being afk to let the gamestate become apathetic and wagons shift:.. i don’t think this is the reality at all and that would be uncool to accuse seriously but it passed my mind so sorry).

hypocritical it is but i don’t trust too strongly the chart of associatives yet i kind of have had only time in the mornings for this and am tired at night to read but i’ll try to sort it out tonight. i have my own thoughts here clearly like not andante/sleepless but... admittedly i get scared of a good interaction or two clearing the correct team especially in this game where there is a lot /less/ interaction so like, if you talk 2-3 times and one of those is really good and you skate by... yeah). (the effort of doing so at a glance though or without diving in is towny unless joqiza is partnered with someone in danger where then he would have to be power wolfing to carry but i don’t think that is as likely probably.)

will visit more tonight or try.

[Roadkill]

i’m at work and unable to really post but i’ll be around before deadline if i have to switch in the event joqiza doesn’t show up.

(considered saying i wouldn’t switch and make someone else do it but that seems... very selfish and rude.)

[Roadkill]

i'm here if anyone needs anything! glad to make it this time.

[Roadkill]

why do you still hold to that group?

(not like ah... why do you think that dumb but a genuine sort of why? like why are your reasons when i think the last time you gave that list it was a dayphase ago? or at least, gave reasons, and i think you are more likely to die here so... having updated reasons would be nice if you are town.)

(...i don't really think that and i'm sorry... you can yell at me all you want after the game if i'm messing up but i just can't see what your angle here is as town and the things you're saying i just... don't agree with at all and they run against the grain of how i see the game.)

(any reads at all just, please?)

[Roadkill]

why do you still hold to that group?

(not like ah... why do you think that dumb but a genuine sort of why? like why are your reasons when i think the last time you gave that list it was a dayphase ago? or at least, gave reasons, and i think you are more likely to die here so... having updated reasons would be nice if you are town.)

[Roadkill]

no answers... :/ bleh.

[Roadkill]

i’m keeping my thoughts close right now, i have a few ideas but... luxurious to not share yet.

andante, why do you think looker died, if you had to think about it a bit deeper? also, hm... can you...

you’re hard for me to really get because you’re very... jump-y around and i’m struggling to figure out if that is a playstyle thing or a tactic (as in the dialogue like “i am clueless guys!” is something that... imagine my head tilting like a dog trying to understand what it hears?) (anyways)

could you... go back and now view umlaut through the lens of mafia? you’re very focused in the immediate fallout of the vote and nightkill (which i get given i think we are all varying degrees of suspicious) (tilting my hand a little bit but to the degree i won’t let know yet...)

...basically asking you to revisit the game with the read you have *now* to see how it fits a mafiaumlqut world, to see if you can make it make sense despite your earlier townread and see what you come out of it with.

[Roadkill]

...that seems really muddled and i am sorry so:

why do you think looker was killed and can you go back and case umlaut to see how well it holds up to you?

[Roadkill]

after that, i’ll share what i think about the nightkill and about you and other people (please prod at me if i don’t because i want to not let it linger/procrastinate which i sometimes do when i am tired...

[Roadkill]

andante, i... understand very well the feeling that you’re feeling right now of not wanting to be the *burden* in endgame/the scapegoat but... if you are town, could you please fight instead? even if we end up killing you, if you’re town we need to be able to... see it? dwlee didn’t do anything that we could *see* that meant they cared.

go down clawing everyone around you; even if it ends up that you die don’t make it easy for whoever is mafia to kill you, don’t remove their culpability. that makes it harder for those remaining because your elimination of town is then: she asked to die we thought it was her, so we killed her. we were all wrong, oh dear, what now?

...i am going to feel very silly if you aren’t town and i’m hyping you up like this (and maybe i should just hold hands with occam) but it’s for the game’s benefit to do so.

[Roadkill]

...i get though if you’re mafia that it is tiresome and might feel like a waste to do labor for a game feeling lost.

what... or rather who do you think benefits most from framing you right now? who do you think needs to implicate you to keep themselves going?

[Roadkill]

ah...

does everyone *want* to be tight-lipped about their reads? i feel like if we're tiptoeing around who we think is towny or not so towny there isn't going to be much productivity in the game? i don't know how much there can be but...

i get the benefit but i think if people don't want to talk about their reads a lot i don't know where else we can go but the wagon we have unless someone wants to elaborate.

(perhaps it's obvious but i am in favor of always talking more, i am long-winded and like using my words and i think *more* is better most of the time information wise)

in the efforts of... starting that a bit, if anyone wants to talk?

the nightkill is... ah. few thoughts about it...

looker's end of day reads were dwlee/andante as a team. andante has incentive to kill looker as the loudest voice in the room that has pushed out a mafia. counterpoint, which i am wondering about: with the loss of a partner now mafia have to get through two elims and i think that... if it isn't andante she's *always* the scapegoat of the day for how she wanted to keep dwlee alive.

...but on the other hand i tend to complicate a lot, in which case, mafia andante can and probably needs to shoot looker in the face and then... what? is the plan? sometimes i think that... mafia will not fall into pitfalls that i consider to be incorrect/suboptimal play but they do. so maybe i am thinking too hard about stuff or something, the optics of what mafia would be thinking about

...i walked away in the middle of this post two hours ago and lost my train of thought but will revisit tomorrow but, maybe talking a bit more?

[Roadkill]

no one is laughing at you?

i find it... hard to follow your thoughts because i follow things through the course of a game but you... i feel like you’ve jumped from person to person as suspect but there isn’t a heavy... weight behind these accusations, because of how quickly they come? where do you think people were laughing at you?

i feel bad if i’ve somehow made you feel bad for playing or trying but there... isn’t enough to really push against you? i’m asking the same as joqiza, for you to... to make a solid case using everything, it won’t be laughed at...

sorry if this seems a bit snippy or anything but just... sorry to ask for too much maybe?

[Roadkill]

hi, sorry i am very tired but i am here a bit and will be here a bit more in the coming days, to complete the trilogy of saying that’s an odd choice that is... and odd choice that i have issue tying to either of you because my gut instinct seeing it (saw, i saw earlier but my brain wasn’t... in the place to post) was that i am now arbitrating you two as in, there would be a cross vote but i also didn’t understand who would benefit forcing a cross vote or why? i guess the why is andantes words looking back a bit, and if i follow this line i think joqiza as scum looks a little better off to win but also why... do this? this way?

it’s... a little frustrating to be alive because i don’t always feel decisive enough and second guess at the end of the game and also it’s a little frustrating to have to defend self (well, i don’t have to, but i always get self-defensive as if to have something to prove) and also because being alive then becomes a question about myself that i do not have the answers as to why usually, and there is no intellectual rebuttal to “you might be having a good scum game” that i can offer because i can’t soothe paranoia with other than “i am not please talk to me about what you think might be the root”

which sleepless is!

the early accusations did not mean a lot to me because they were early and i know reads can change and when you are with low information a net can be thrown and not always hit the right things, and also i did something attention grabbing that was... decisive. so it did not mean a lot to me and there was never a... moment where something clicked as in “i need to follow this trail” like i did when dwlee wanted to kill three (because even then i think i would have probably just sighed at that one post they made and not really went after it until we said the same thing and i went oh no) so it was just... a thing, your early accusation, that’s a shrug on the mind

[Roadkill]

my suspicions fall a little bit to sleepless but i am still not very sure right now, in that it is easier to recall him in the moment for having replied and thought about the game a bit in reference.

to try and verbalize why because “a little” is nebulous i think that we both bussed and that sleepless feels... a little... predetermined in how he’s talking as if to frame me a bit as the great scum potentially and then a little more kindness to joqiza (but also joqiza was here /to/ speak first and we are usually nicer to the people around us presently)

the things that interest me most on joqiza to visit are the early game and then also andante because andante was town and while she wanted to kill... everyone at some point maybe there was something missed in what she was saying especially yesterday buried under the noise of wanting to live

[Roadkill]

also i cannot offer any examples of my play and i am sorry for that but i think here if i were mafia i would kill joqiza as the loudest, most consistent voice in the room and also...

he has intuitively matched up with me for almost the entire game as in, our thoughts mirror each other from what he says and.:: while if i were mafia i would have tricked him up to this point but when you have done so for so long when you say something “bad” that does not match it is a jarring moment that can cause an almost instant reevaluation that i don’t think i would be able to recover from gracefully and with the spotlight shining hard on the three of us

[Roadkill]

i will be around a bit maybe through the day but definitely tomorrow morning again!

[Roadkill]

ah... irl stuff has put the proverbial axe into my neck and i am finding it... difficult to really parse anything today, so i will try later or tomorrow morning;

to answer, the stuff about not being intuitively right i think you prove my point a bit when i stretch to the “wrong” which... ahhh... i don’t know if i have better words for you especially now and i’m sorry but maybe it is also how umlaut acted regarding andante end of day where he dug in so harshly and was unrepentant and that sort of attitude especially one that isn’t as.... cerebral maybe (not an insult i promise i’m sorry) is less likely to fling into me if i need to avoid that?

word salad right now to finish the first point

to even visit the wrong for me or rather the fake as in, a fake world where i try to describe an action i would take, it is... anathema to how i play to spill out my thoughts because fake thoughts cannot trail into each other nearly as easily? it’s caught out by someone who is really paying attention and i think that sort of attention is townier maybe?

also i’m sorry for not being ... more as in less objectionable but i don’t really have another way of being and i feel ... a little useless right now especially given present feelings so i will not be dwelling a lot here

(i’ve tried to catch the people paying attention this game in silly ways it makes me sad that they’re unnoticed)

(i did try to dwell; joqiza to your iso i read the beginning day but it felt too jumbled to make sense in the sense of scenes in narrative, can you go over your dwlee thoughts and feelings and if you have please requote because i am not trying to ignore even if they’re blatant but i cannot ... find it)

...and yes my mind is that othered right now, big details small details, i will return

[Roadkill]

sorry i can’t be anything other than dampened right now and i wish it was not, the case that i am feeling dampened and that it spirals into that which i say and i will revisit, the idea of i think it useful the ... theorizing? i make about myself if it is going to help but i cannot be of help very much today if,

either of you i do not know who needs to hear something from me please ask and i will try

(to have direction right now will ... help? maybe to corral my thoughts into something shaped like not-meaningless and not-nonsense)

(i am sorry too to be handheld right now in giving thoughts but it is very different than it was a week ago for me and i want to help if i can)

[Roadkill]

... and please ask to clarify if my words are

circular or spread out

i hope, in a few days if there is patience to be... playing as i was before

[Roadkill]

i’ll be back from the war tomorrow, i needed a few days to ... be better than i was doing a few days ago, i... dislike dragging this out when it could have went by faster were i to post more and think more about this game but it was not a real possibility

(and it only was urges to vote on a gut impulse and if i am wrong i no longer am obligated to think about this game and stew in my own issues)

(...but i didn’t! to me!)

tomorrow morning/evening i will dive in and maybe even use up reserve posts for the first time

[Roadkill]

again really sorry to become an obstacle rather than clearing the roads

[Roadkill]

sorry, i’m going to be home in about seven hours and then i’ll be around... sorry.

[Roadkill]

i should, not continue my litany of 'sorry' because it is later than seven hours but i will add to it one

(i am also very, very tired, but want to offer something so we can talk more!)

this will mostly be... buffet pickings? a bit of everything on my plate for you two to respond to as you wish but if it is not to your tastes hopefully there is more to eat.

[Roadkill]

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Are you gonna explain that or are you just gonna act mysterious and make me speculate as to your reasoning. I can only assume you SR Roadkill for the E-1 and as for Dwlee I have no idea why you voted him when you did

Roadkill was for the Andante vote, yes. Town are usually too paranoid to do that because it opens up dumb hammer possibilities where scum feels more confident it won't happen and if it does, they expect the hammer to look worse than their vote anyway.

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

VOTE: mc esther

Umlaut is very likely town

Why and why?

Unvote, Vote Dwelee

(i noticed this post from looking at the vote counts, a jump from the entire game pairing off to a wagon on dwlee.

i think... hm.

i am of two minds on this because there are two worlds i have to consider for sleepless:

as mafia, a rigid scumread that he continued on until it was dead, that did not waver, was decided from the start, and there was no... room to maneuver, or rather... the choice was made *never* to deviate for some... odd reason, but the thing is.

as town, sleepless's posting is a lot more... the rigid scumread which is right and is good to be rigid but from there a... fluidity, i think? sleepless is not locked into a plan because sleepless is not mafia (...an obvious statement given the scenario presented).

this sort of post is the one i do read as the former, i think that... hm...

i don't *expect* mafia to decide that they will bus to hell and back but then, they do, and they start off with a bang. but in a quiet game there is not a bang but a whimper in terms of things to pick at for your partner, but noticing... awkwardness of all things is...

it's something because it's early but it's prescient in a way that i wonder... i wonder how early to jump on a partner is good, because it is again not an expectation of mine that it happens instantly and without remorse, but... hm.

tired eyes see this and see the groundwork being laid by sleepless but it's joqiza who has to prod a bit to really rip it out and it's only after that it's been sat down and made to be discussed does sleepless vote, which, feels... something? feels something.

(...i'm still admittedly not running on a lot of fumes to play or do a lot right now but, if i need to add *more* or add *clarity* i am able to do so but this is my thoughts to the paper with a pen)

(...a quill and ink.)

[Roadkill]

Intent to hammer Dwlee ~20 min before deadline (seems reasonable to do it a bit early to be safe).

I reserve the right to change my mind conditional on posting from Dwlee and/or SA.

The main reason I don't think Looker/SA is a world is because I TR Looker. My table reads are: Umlaut, Roadkill, Looker town. In the remaining PoE, I don't read any pair as particularly teamed, so. Low confidence in my reads this game, ig? I'm choosing to favor table reads over associatives in the end. I don't.... really think SA is super towny, but I feel like he's given thoughts throughout the game that sort of make sense, whereas with Dwlee I find myself disagreeing with them (Andante read, Looker read, mainly). Caveat's that SA's singular pop-in on pg 17 makes me nervous, given the gamestate.

@Andante I don't think Looker is scum. If you're town, and right, and you feel like I'm not listening to you, then I'm sorry. I think you know that I do listen to you, in Pokemaf (finally complete) I literally vigged dia because I believed in your reads. This game you feel different to me. I told you I didn't vibe with your mc esther read and you ignored me. Based on the info I have rn, even if I assume the best about your intentions I can't assume your reads are any better this game than mine. Your arguments on their own merits aren't convincing as to me it feels like you just tersely repeat your hypotheses. So, I'm not sheeping you.

Not agreeing on reads isn't a scum tell mmm

What did you agree with me on in pokemaf?

So, for one thing, I thought your reaction to Koba was townier in that game than anything you've demonstrated here. I didn't really vocally express it that game, because I was busy at the time and fell behind. But I'm pretty sure I never actually voted you in that game.

The other thing is, this is a small game and you and I don't agree on the narratives you've made yourself clear on. That doesn't preclude you from being town but in my experience it is

quite likely

that I end up disagreeing with mafia in games. It's not the strongest tell, sure. I can be wrong and pocketed.

Are you living in the Looker/SA world? You seem to have mostly interacted with Looker. I think Looker is town atm. Either change my mind on that... unless you have reasons to vote SA outside of a teamread w/ Looker? I'm not sure if you're voting SA because you scumread him independently, or if it's just for self prez.

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group, but there's a decent amount of self preservation there yea cause that's literally the only other wagon. I'd rather kill Looker than sleepless and voted that until very recently but there was no one else there

why do you still hold to that group?

(not like ah... why do you think that dumb but a genuine sort of why? like why are your reasons when i think the last time you gave that list it was a dayphase ago? or at least, gave reasons, and i think you are more likely to die here so... having updated reasons would be nice if you are town.)

(...i don't really think that and i'm sorry... you can yell at me all you want after the game if i'm messing up but i just can't see what your angle here is as town and the things you're saying i just... don't agree with at all and they run against the grain of how i see the game.)

(any reads at all just, please?)

why do you still hold to that group?

(not like ah... why do you think that dumb but a genuine sort of why? like why are your reasons when i think the last time you gave that list it was a dayphase ago? or at least, gave reasons, and i think you are more likely to die here so... having updated reasons would be nice if you are town.)

mm... hm...

so, here.

the things on my mind are:

why answer joqiza but not me? and why not answer a question that is regarding both me *and* sleepless, as in, why not offer up the options?
how strongly must one bus to set up a partner going deeper?

what is the basis to make a partner look good?

these are... pretty questions but to dive deeper,

joqiza was threatening a hammer at the time on dwlee with intent given to happen soon, but he was still open to a dialogue or something from dwlee to change his mind, of which the other option was most likely sa; joqiza gives changes, dwlee...

dwlee asks about a weird question regarding another game? perhaps at this point it was inevitable and they did not want to give up anything but what a... weird token of resistance? "why did you do this?" without anything meaningful to... to save themself. it feels so... out of place, looking at what comes before and after.

a lot of the posts *before* from dwlee are in reference to looker, who was like a red hot iron poking at dwlee; we know looker's alignment but i think it's very telling to see that this is how dwlee was responding to town pressure this game: with some spine behind it when they were around.

I literally don't care anymore dude. Sometimes I'm hot. Sometimes I'm cold. You watched me be cold for a whole game til ELO where I (correctly) figured out you were town but you got voted out anyway. I really do not care if you think my town play is good or not and I think you're grasping at straws here

a moment of irritation and a genuine pushback, because dwlee a few posts later suggests that looker is the alternative to sleepless, which, well...

i think that if dwlee can somehow kill looker it is a *great* benefit for mafia, not having to nightkill him; this is a pretty surface level read, but, ah...

it's the sort of thing that, where...

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group, but there's a decent amount of self preservation there yea cause that's literally the only other wagon. I'd rather kill Looker than sleepless and voted that until very recently but there was no one else there

how much of this is the sort of, self awareness that mafia needs of common tells (survivalism is seen as scummy -- so admit to being survivalistic ahead of it all! scum need to vote the only realistic option to continue living -- so be noble, and turn towards the 'true' mafia!) and how much of it is creating an association?

[Roadkill]

...i nipped that post midway because i realized something.

[Roadkill]

Drafted this yesterday but was gonna add more but didn't get to it

To respond to 119: I'd like to townread the effort, too. It's strange to me that your response to my case is simply that you "Don't understand the vote." If you are town I'd expect you to be trying to parse my motivations and your response is as if I placed down a naked vote without further clarification. What is your read on my motivations? And do you have a response to the specific points I brought up about her?

When I saw this

Andante your 83 is ridiculously uncharitable.

Do you really not understand why I was skeptical of your opening post? It's not something I've ever actually seen and asking you to give examples is not something crazy.

You can't even provide any examples. It would take one post to say "yeah here you go." In theory you shouldn't have to reread your own games in order to find one, that's what I'd have to do to verify it, but you'd just remember and be like... "Yeah, here you go. Let's move on."

FWIW I was prepared to accept something like "Yeah idk I can't think of any examples, guess I just spoke heat of the moment." But this is... A lot

It reminded me of this time I said something similar and people were tunneling me for it and I was town. Ironically, I can't remember which game it was, but the vibes are very similar to that time. People were like "Dwlee give an example" and I was pretty sure a time had happened but couldn't find it. I'd expect scum to be

more

conciliatory and give the "can't think of nvm" so I actually think the thing you're pointing out is town-indicative, not scum-indicative.

Your other comments on my posts are so aggressive and... Unpleasant, some not even making any reference to what my alignment would be just attacking the way I post. Nowhere in my suspicion of you did I ever address you or treat you like that and given that we know each other and have played with each other before I want to believe it's just because I caught you and not because you actually think any of this stuff?

This I'm gonna ignore because this is between y'all.

Looking at Andante's 83 which you called uncharitable:

wh4t gave "reads" there is NOTHING of that sort in joqiza's ISO, joqiza probably maf

When I read this I initially disagreed but at the time of the post, there are implications of reads but not explicit ones if that makes sense. That might be what Andante is talking about here.

Andante can you explain why you think three is townie?

I think Joqiza is town for 124. It sits in my brain very well and it's just... well-reasoned.

I am pretty sure Andante is town here. I know there are doubters and maybe I'm just pocketed for her defense of my slot but I have no intention of voting her today.

I think Umlaut is town.

This isn't ordered btw.

Mc esther is cleared unless someone counter claims so we should make sure not to lim until everyone has a chance to check in but.

Between...

Wh4t*
Three
Sleepless Assassin
Roadkill

I don't think three/SA push me together like that if they're partners, so one of

Wh4t/Three
Wh4t/SA
Wh4t/Roadkill
Three/Roadkill
SA/Roadkill

is my solve.

I'd prefer to vote one of Wh4t or roadkill cause they exist in more worlds.

Not agreeing on reads isn't a scum tell mmm

What did you agree with me on in pokemaf?

So, for one thing, I thought your reaction to Koba was townier in that game than anything you've demonstrated here. I didn't really vocally express it that game, because I was busy at the time and fell behind. But I'm pretty sure I never actually voted you in that game.

The other thing is, this is a small game and you and I don't agree on the narratives you've made yourself clear on. That doesn't preclude you from being town but in my experience it is

quite likely

that I end up disagreeing with mafia in games. It's not the strongest tell, sure. I can be wrong and pocketed.

Are you living in the Looker/SA world? You seem to have mostly interacted with Looker. I think Looker is town atm. Either change my mind on that... unless you have reasons to vote SA outside of a teamread w/ Looker? I'm not sure if you're voting SA because you scumread him independently, or if it's just for self prez.

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group, but there's a decent amount of self preservation there yea cause that's literally the only other wagon. I'd rather kill Looker than sleepless and voted that until very recently but there was no one else there

Andante has zero reason to tryhard like that given gamestate if scum. Don't understand the vote there at all

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't understand this. What was the "given game state" and why wouldn't scum try-hard in it?

I thought I still had more votes than I did when she started, this is less strong. I was thinking I still had 3 or 4 votes when she started, but I think we had tied wagons and there actually is incentives there. I still want to townread the effort but as I said less strong

there are a lot of words that i could say (and can say if wanted), but the gist is...

looking at you two feels like a rabbit hole, so i'm looking at how dwlee treated people.

and i don't think that... dwlee needs to be so... reconciliatory? towards joqiza if they're teamed...?

as in, dwlee goes the extra little step, it feels like, to try and give joqiza the "levelheaded" answer; the good townie answer, or at least, something to placate a little bit. joqiza gets the townread, the questioning of meta.

wondering why this is, i think that... joqiza's questioning was a little more ... tender in the beginning? so to speak, the sort of lightfootedness that can be guided a certain way if tended to. the other townreads (in 250) are sensible for dwlee, andante is defending, umlaut was in general seen with mostly kindness, but to have only two and a sea of suspects would probably be... inopportune, a thing to question, more "teams" to have to present content for and fake reasoning why they exist or don't exist.

even at the end, though it is more understandable given the hammer over head, dwlee wanted to reason with joqiza compared to...

[Roadkill]

UNVOTE:
I've seen lolhammer in RVS, typically from scum though, or in a meme game. I don't think it is scummy to question that line from Andante but I don't think that line is AI from her either.

I like Umlaut for town right now so I'll join this
VOTE: mc Esther

Bus your buddy and vote Roadkill with me.

I don't like to bus in micros though

Dwelees entrance "someone has to start the game" shows an awkwardness I noticed from him in a pick your poison game we just played. It's kind of a mix of not really seeming to want to post and justifying why he is doing so anyway. The unvote when the wagon got big and vote on Mc Esther to create a mini wagon kind of confirms this. And actually the more I look at this the more I'm making myself confident in Dwelee over Roadkill so I'm probably switching at the end of this post. I'm gonna finish reading first though.

My post was in reference to the fact that we only get 10 posts per day, but someone has to be the first to use one to get the ball rolling onto something. Your read of my scum play is pretty good as far as not really /wanting/ to post, but your interpretation of my post and its actual meaning are completely divorced

If that's true, you're a lot more concerned with the post limit than I am. Which isn't impossible. But it seems weird right out of the gate like that.

Some games I go absolutely wild with posting lol

looker is right, you’ve been active since this day’s begun in other spaces, even if it wasn’t a lot yesterday.

why haven’t you been active here? i assume you saw the wagon.

Games have deadlines and one was in ELO. A lot of my posts yesterday are also in a game that finished while in ELO and I was an IC trying to figure out the solve + what to do after my death. Someone voted before I did and we lost and then I was reacting to the endgame scenario, which looker would know because he was the mislim to lose the game.

This is incredibly disingenuous when my activity across the entire site was zero
VOTE: Looker
Think town!you would bother to check that

Why wouldn't scum worry about being called out for being wrong?

They could be, but scum are also much less likely to care if their arguments are actually correct if they just want a Muslim.

VOTE: Sleepless Assassin
Looker be like i totally can't be partnered with sleepless votes me as the counterwagon

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group, but there's a decent amount of self preservation there yea cause that's literally the only other wagon. I'd rather kill Looker than sleepless and voted that until very recently but there was no one else there

...dwlee feels very... ah.

for someone who was so consistently adamant that dwlee was mafia, dwlee seems pretty... unbothered by it all? toothless in reply. (interpretation; earlier on it's a bit more forgivable as... well, there's less stakes, but all the same it is the beginning of the pattern).

it feels very... barren, what i guess... i *expected* to have happened, dialogue wise, and what did? at least, what dwlee felt worth responding to from sleepless who just... really, really wanted dwlee dead.

(i included the vote on sleepless because *even when it is about sleepless*, dwlee opts to comment on someone else, and avert their eyes away from sleepless elsewhere)

[Roadkill]

(i said i was only going to spend like 30 minutes on it but... it clicked, it really, really clicked...)

(...so i must finish onward)

[Roadkill]

Between...

Wh4t*
Three
Sleepless Assassin
Roadkill

I don't think three/SA push me together like that if they're partners, so one of

Wh4t/Three
Wh4t/SA
Wh4t/Roadkill
Three/Roadkill
SA/Roadkill

is my solve.

I'd prefer to vote one of Wh4t or roadkill cause they exist in more worlds.

also to highlight this post a bit, in retrospect...

dwlee also finds the reasons to put sleepless just outside of the realm of "we should do this today", barely; a singular removal of a team that leaves SA at two teams instead of three to try and push out myself and wh4t/looker.

[Roadkill]

so in reference to your explanation of your scum play, is there any reason that you aren't going wild in this one?

21 is the only real 'content' post you've made, and it's a little hedge-y.

That it's page 2 (now 3) of a game? What kind of a question is this

I am typically still memeing this early idk what games you're looking at

I don't really see any memeing either. : /

Do you have any takes, preferably hot?

Three I'm starting to think you're not thinking when you say things like this

My takes are umlaut town, mc esther scum. I don't have enough experience with her to know if the vote hopping is normal from her but I think it's slightly scum-indicative.

I am thinking, though I don't really have a normal thought process I guess. Could you explain what you believe I said wrong/thoughtlessly here? I don't see it.

I agree with Umlaut town, Esther scum is more of a hot take though. She's null town for me, I just want to see her engage with the game a bit more. Is everyone else null for you?

I feel like it's kind of an unspoken rule when signing up for this game that you won't just meme around / you'll try to be serious about it. That's kinda the point of this rule set.

Andante is sorta townie.

@Roadkill

I'm not going wild because serious + post restriction + page 3. I think that should be pretty obvious. I don't think the content so far is super enlightening on a cursory glance which is pretty much the response you predicted but yea

Andante can you explain why you think three is townie?

I think Joqiza is town for 124. It sits in my brain very well and it's just... well-reasoned.

I am pretty sure Andante is town here. I know there are doubters and maybe I'm just pocketed for her defense of my slot but I have no intention of voting her today.

I think Umlaut is town.

This isn't ordered btw.

Mc esther is cleared unless someone counter claims so we should make sure not to lim until everyone has a chance to check in but.

Between...

Wh4t*
Three
Sleepless Assassin
Roadkill

I don't think three/SA push me together like that if they're partners, so one of

Wh4t/Three
Wh4t/SA
Wh4t/Roadkill
Three/Roadkill
SA/Roadkill

is my solve.

I'd prefer to vote one of Wh4t or roadkill cause they exist in more worlds.

To be clear: I will vote three if we need it. I would just prefer limming in looker/roadkill.

looker is right, you’ve been active since this day’s begun in other spaces, even if it wasn’t a lot yesterday.

why haven’t you been active here? i assume you saw the wagon.

Games have deadlines and one was in ELO. A lot of my posts yesterday are also in a game that finished while in ELO and I was an IC trying to figure out the solve + what to do after my death. Someone voted before I did and we lost and then I was reacting to the endgame scenario, which looker would know because he was the mislim to lose the game.

This is incredibly disingenuous when my activity across the entire site was zero
VOTE: Looker
Think town!you would bother to check that

Why wouldn't scum worry about being called out for being wrong?

They could be, but scum are also much less likely to care if their arguments are actually correct if they just want a Muslim.

i think it would be unfair to not present that:

dwlee did not interact as much with me either (in reality i think they interacted with all of us about the same amount of times), but... there's a lot more irritation towards me questioning them, rather than trying to placate or work with

...which... lines up pretty well with wanting me dead.

[Roadkill]

I am slightly burnt out of mafia. I am doing a recharge week. I have been in very intense games off-site in the past week and I am no longer in them but that no longer being in them thing contributed to me burning out. I recognize I need to post more for the good of the game but in-depth analyzing is for this weekend. If anyone wants to ask me questions or point me in the direction of things to give opinions on go for it but this is mobile dwlee for a couple days

it feels in ill form to comment on *this* sort of thing but i feel it necessary all the same, as it is one of the only reasons that i can offer for such a persistent amount of bussing:

if dwlee rolls mafia in this game, and they are this burned out, i think that it is more likely that they would accept a bus from the get-go to get a partner to a better place. as in, some teams might do "oh let's see how it goes, maybe we can push each other a bit?" this situation is the sort of "burn it all down."

...i also think that this is more likely, in the setup we have (there are no doctor claims and i refuse to believe any that appear), a single PR that ended up getting outed early only allows the inferno to grow. you kill the cop, and you are free, and you do not have to worry about one partner getting pushed by dayplay and the other guilty'd, or your kill being stopped and suddenly you need your numbers a whole lot more to win.

[Roadkill]

VOTE: sleepless assassin

i do not see myself moving onto joqiza as mafia after having read, and all that i have explained about sleepless. if i am wrong i apologize but.. i think it is best to bite the bullet now rather than a day or two when i am tired and cranky and to post is to use up energy that i do not have only to be submitted to a loss that could just be... now? but i am thinking i am right.

[Roadkill]

(...and a very, very small note before bed, a cute one: it makes me sad that no one notices when i do the little things in games like break up posts and then sequence them very fast, within seconds, to post them, and that no one questions why i would do such a thing)

(i did that earlier) (i was afraid of using up post limit but hadn't gone anywhere near... so might as well make use of what i had written and see if it's picked up, because i know often people push on those who pre-write their posts as if they must be worried and edit)

(good night)

[Roadkill]

Actually Roadkill when you see this I am a bit curious what you mean in 593. You're saying you pre-write posts at times and then split them up and post them in chunks? To what end? Readability I guess? Or trying to facilitate real time interactions or something?

no, actually!

in that, i was saying: i was worrying about post limit at a certain point and was writing everything together as if it was one post, as in the editor it was all together... but it felt very silly since i was not being verbose enough to... actually hit the post limit at any point? so instead i decided to see if anyone would see, if i just threw out three things at once and poke me to see if i was editing my posts beforehand. it's the sort of little detail i think that people who are really looking for /something/ pick up, but if they don't, it is nothing more than something i can smile at

(i did that, a long time ago; people noticed, and the reaction was negative, as if i was worried/anxious about how i was presenting myself)

(...i was really bad at self-editing anyways so now, i just spew.)

[Roadkill]

Unvote, Vote Mc Esther

Too much Dwelee resistance to make it happen. We have 47 minutes.

Oh shit. I thought it was today. Well... I still think Dwelee isn't happening. This at least gives mc esther time to claim if anyone was thinking of hammering.

Unvote

Mc esther, I was trying to get you to vote dwelee. When you didn't answer and I thought deadline was less than an hour away, I gave up. When you included yourself as viable and seemed more willing to die than vote Dwelee, the last thing I would have thought was power role. And I'm still skeptical but common sense says you live today barring a counter claim.

Sleepless tried to rush the deadline and put esther at e-1 without saying

You think I lied about thinking deadline was tonight? That's pretty provable. Lying about that doesn't help scum.

Vote Dwelee

I don't think this goes through but I'm willing to try.

Honestly, to do anything other than Three and maybe Looker, someone's gonna have to bend a little.

I'm here to hammer pending claim before deadline. Still prefer Dwelee though.

mmm

with retrospect now this looks worse, for the first part

to vote dwlee of course is something that sleepless is committed to but there's still the little push to vote out mc esther because deadline that... wasn't happening because it was not deadline. and to say "there's no benefit to lying about this", well... it is perhaps the only way to remove yourself from bussing that would not be a conflict with the reads you have presented, if you are scum (i hate this elim, buuuuut i have to do it -- oh no, it was town, sorry, anyways back to this -- a free elim), with some hemming and hawing about dwlee not happening to boot as well, it is a departure from "kill mode"

and even then, sleepless... lingers, and does not throw the vote back down on dwlee with what time remains.

i know that it is only an hour between the two but... i feel if you are very, truly trying to kill someone, with all of your heart the vote returns, or at least... that is how i have felt before, when i have that strong of an opinion, and you are gifted more time, you vote again and without question, and you do not return it when... someone else asks if there is interest?

i guess, looking at day 1 i see more of the performance, if that makes sense? the places where the need to kill, the confidence based on those early tells, gives way to "well... not happening, can try", etc.

[Roadkill]

(...and this is a bit of meta i cannot prove right now due to my being unknown, but... were i aligned with dwlee i would have made the time to vote them, as i do not do half-measures when it comes to bussing. it is of no concern to arrive and vote someone, a minute or two of my time, but as town it's... games are more of an afterthought often when irl is happening, the stress is lessened by a larger team to work with)

[Roadkill]

I still hold to my Roadkill/Looker/Sleepless group, but there's a decent amount of self preservation there yea cause that's literally the only other wagon. I'd rather kill Looker than sleepless and voted that until very recently but there was no one else there

rule of threes in action

...and yet again i am spiteful about receiving no explanation as to why, but i suppose, it is because there is nothing that is real

(i spoke of anonymity -- i nearly spoiled it just now, and i want to cry)

[Roadkill]

i,

opened this thread read it and started crying because of how defeated i felt for not, explaining well enough to be seen

i guess will try later tonight

i don’t know how else to explain right now how it feels to not be believed but i just, dont know

[Roadkill]

it

sorry, it just feels like ... lip service sort of consolation prize "you played well (but not well enough to convince)" sort of thing it's... on me entirely how i see it

and i know this message isn't .. . the most productive to make emotions don't do, a lot but it's sort of just

venting.

because i tried and then i found the answer and then was picking back because it was retrospect and it's just ...

kind of don't have energy to fight? just feelings i found the right answer that counts for ... something maybe

(or maybe i'll feel like it will some time after the fact i guess)

(i don't know why im making this post because it doesn't change your mind and we both feel bad from it so i'm sorry but i'm here i said i'd be here tonight but i don't know how else to be here)

[Roadkill]

i just, got off work recently

i don't know what else i could say to matter but i am here

what other words can i say

switching to sleepless wasn't ... something on my mind as an active want but i don't like to bully through games when there are so many people (i am sorry if i bullied somehow by voting when i did, i know, that it is stressful), so it was a compromise i did not want but it is a team game

[Roadkill]

i'm also, sorry for getting emotional i don't like to do it but i do it's just

... i don't want to use the word upsetting, to be told that... the reads that i came onto were not as ... meaningful maybe because i was going through mafia's words and that it was all... careful? it... bothered me a lot because then it is... what is the point of reading the dead at all, the things they say cannot all be... as careful as they want? if that makes sense

this bothered me a lot in particular and i wanted, to try and explain where the feeling was coming from a bit so you could understand

[Roadkill]

i really appreciate you, at least looking back through things

[Roadkill]

most of my other thoughts now are... garbling together, so, i am here if you need, anything

(it will not be my best work but it will be)

[Roadkill]

i... disagree, that it is wifomy, because i stare at it and see... obvious ? i guess to me it is obvious but not you, but it is...

it is straightforward, in my eyes: dwlee does not want, to jump onto three to not look so survival oriented, to seem curious when their iso is decidedly not curious and is... there, a presence, but the reads are all town reads at the top without, a lot of meat. something there

and then the teams, it isn't... i guess it boils down to i Know what i am and you do not but it is simply that dwlee does not want to danger sleepless, but they do not want to protect them at all because of their dynamic, so instead it is to neatly place sleepless within the realm of "i do not like" while... positioning two town-people to die, there is no wifom, it is a place of safety for a partner that doesn't look like it to begin with.

[Roadkill]

i think sleepless had a hunch of my prness and was trying to get a confirmation when he asked whether i'd rather self-hammer than vote dwlee (as in, i think he's maf pr-hunting). imo, most vanilla townies just answer "yes" there, where most prs very much wouldnt. i considered just, lying, but that seemed like a great way to have my wagon build further; not that it ultimately mattered. sleepless/three and sleepless/looker are both very coherent teams imo, so this is very much my top scumread after those two. sleepless/looker kinda seem to collectively be trying to frustrate compromise options, ive already mentioned that looker supports exclusively nonviable wagons; sleepless is less overt in this, but he stuck on the dwlee wagon a while after it was made very clear that it's simply nonviable.

ik a few people have andante down as hard-town, im very mixed on this. joqiza is entirely correct to note that her reads just, dont bear much relationship to the thread in full context. i already said earlier that she kept a vote on me long after her primary reason ("three was obviously joking") was explicitly disproven. she also kept saying i was scum with looker because i wouldnt vote him -- after sleepless had explicitly said that he wouldnt vote looker, while i had previously voted looker and stated i was okay with the deadline looker wagon. if she's town, she is not living up to looker's positive assessment of her. this doesnt make her maf, and i'll admit, towards the beginning of the day, i had a moderate townread on her because she's a long way removed from her coalition scumgame -- not just in that she's more active, but also in that her reads are a lot more reasoned (well, "reasoned") through. obviously on some level im just mad here, and eh i shouldnt be, i made questionable play decisions to dodge the night kill, those decisions got me wagoned. but fuck im mad.

umlaut kinda seems like he's trying to pocket me in a few places, but i think im just paranoid. hard to say.

joqiza and dwlee are both in this weird "theyre kinda null but i think theyre town?" space for me. hard to describe. i think a lot of people have the null-town "hasnt said much but i guess e-1 was townie" read on roadkill, i very much echo that.

looker and three have been discussed ad nauseum.

Wait...so my suggestions are viable after all?

I'm open to Roadkill, Sleepless Assassin, or Umlaut

Let's go with VOTE: Sleepless!
And I never got an answer for this

Why are my suggestions not viable

Would it even be beneficial for scum to try to run up post cap counts by asking questions that have already been answered?

p-edit: It makes him seem angry to me if he was serious.

Sleepless tried to rush the deadline and put esther at e-1 without saying

I could see a Sleepless launch, but I think it was pretty clear in context that the vote on Esther was E-1 so "not saying" is not really in itself a big deal.

and it is important to not put sleepless in danger as these are the posts immediately preceding that reads list.

[Roadkill]

Oh right, you posted that chart on the last page.

I was interested in seeing whether Andante would be willing to follow me onto Sleepless given that

I want Looker/Sleepless today

which was part of why it was "interesting" -- a couple of people who are otherwise at odds have said Sleepless is a launch candidate for them, so I wanted to see who would actually vote them if they became a plausible wagon. But pretty much no one followed me there so I can't get anything from that.

Even though I've kind of tipped my hand, I will still put this out there explicitly: Andante, I am much more interested in launching Sleepless than Looker atm, so why not join me there? Looker is going to be a hard sell for you.

Will hammer Dwlee if it comes down to it.

Looker, do you read Sleeper as town now? Weren't they formerly on your would-yeet list?

Looking at the VC the obvious candidate here is Andante? It's kind of

too

obvious in that I feel like Andante was giving a full-throated defense of Dwlee and not some sort of "gee I'd rather go somewhere else." I mean, something something WIFOM but that is a tough thing for scum to do with a partner who is not making themselves easy to defend.

I guess another possibility is that SA and Dwlee wagons were

both

scum, but I haven't thought at all about how viable a pair that is.

I guess it isn't helpful for me to just sit here and wait for the end of the day, so I will comment on another player after all.

There was a point d1 where I mentioned I couldn't find a partner for Dwlee and SA said something along the lines of "I actually agree with you, but it's a D2 conversation." You've got to imagine that a scum player hellbussing on D1 is looking to set up the necessary mis-eliminations down the line, i.e. trying to find people to tie to their partner. SA wasn't doing anything like that, just seemed to be trying to noose Dwlee.

Actually, while I think this is a pretty reasonable argument against Dwlee/SA, I wouldn't call it conclusive. I can imagine a scenario where scum!SA just isn't thinking about who specifically he intends to push as Dwlee's partner after that flip, or if he does think about it decides it doesn't really matter as long as we believe it isn't him; in short, a scum!SA whose entire MO is just to look town and let the rest take care of itself. So if it came down to final 3 with SA in it I'd still have to consider him a yeet candidate.

to read over umlaut this is perhaps the best reason now i can think of that umlaut dies: because umlaut has given the most... "real" stance against SA throughout the game, where i think that both, you and i were erring towards the idea that sleepless does not do such a thing, bus as he did, but umlaut was more... open to it, in the sense that his thoughts were there as more than just conceptual: i will reconsider all options if alive, which would include sleepless as well

[Roadkill]

i...

to me, it is...

the before does not matter as much what was said until i vote, but the before i guess feels... option-open, in that, the reasons are not ... good, it is. "a hard game", "the simplest explanation is that he played a good game", it is not ... at the beginning as much but it does become more but even then it is... i guess, to me i read as 'scared' but not quite, nervous, unsure of which way will go left and right and end up in the right place but the after i vote to me, is...

i have, to sleepless, given him the answer if he is town: i am mafia trying to kill him, as he is not dead from you voting him. he now knows there is... an entire game of answers before him that he can use to defend, to push, justify, to bring me down if he wanted to do so but there is not... excitement there?

to me it was, an "oh!!!" moment, to see everything that i didn't before, but sleepless does not offer this sort of thing, it is the relief of "oh this is easy", as in, i have now taken out the... the impetus? to post and pretend, and he is swift to defend himself to you: here is why i did what i did (recreate meta) and here is why dwlee and i wouldn't do this, but it is not... referential to /me/ except "well they just could not kill themselves" but there is no picking through beyond "umlaut is town" to see what umlaut was thinking or doing or anything, it is all... "do you really think that two wagons happen on scum really? also i was super worried about roadkill, he was so towny he did not die but now i am okay to say it!" it is just...

there is no /action/ taken to push more and more just, oh you silly joqiza, look at this? do you see why this would not happen? of course i will answer your questions when you ask but there is no motivation to dig into what is now a treasure trove of things for me i will just be here and answer you, the town, and that is all

(i know sleepless is on vacation but there has been more time, since that moment, that has only been... answers and the defense of self)

(...this sounds mean to write of sleepless's play like this so... reductive but it is simplest way for me to explain)

[Roadkill]

I don't think there's a whole lot without repeating myself. Everything is out there. It's really just use your best judgement.

i guess it is, just this, this boils down

there is so much more now for him to see that would not be repeating, and yet he will not take up the burden, when it should not be a burden at all to now have the answers

(and, it is ... to me the brusque logical cool stone wall when i was... upset)

(and to not... challenge things being said for fear of stirring)

[Roadkill]

how would you characterize sleepless's play in the f3 fypov? i think reviewing the f3 is the last thing i want to do before i place the hammer.

i see your argument on 250 i guess it just feels weird for dwlee/sleepless to bus as hard as they did and yet have dwlee fail this level 1 distancing check. if that's the team they must have specifically wanted dwlee but NOT sleepless to flip.

and to answer this, i think...

it is a lot simpler than we want to think when it comes to mafia, in that mafia are always ahead, on top of plans and playing perfectly, but there is... no perfect player, perfect games perhaps but things... the cracks happen

and i suppose it was not so bad that... it was not even noticed until this late, that sort of list, because in reality it was not a traditional list at all, it was mired in associatives which are... i feel it is a lot different of a defense than putting names down in tiers where our eyes go to the middle high and middle low to see who is just outside of reach? it is this person is not with this person or that person and it is by one less person that this person is not at the bottom of my bucket, a scrap, and that doesn't look... look like much of anything in the moment

[Roadkill]

(sorry, if i am rambling, my sadness has somewhat....

...turned into righteousness? not quite that not as strong, melting gold)

[Roadkill]

i know i said i'd hammer at 7pm cst but i'm gonna delay that a bit. we're taking this game to overtime

what would you say the sleepless/dwlee plan is on d1 prior to mc esther being outed? would scum!sleepless have been sure that dwlee wouldn't be limmed, and if dwlee did get limmed... what were they going to do next?

sorry if i'm asking you to do all the legwork. these are the "sticking points" for me that i can't figure out

i do not have a perfect answer to this or something that does not also make me... confused on the choices but i think, that it was pre-determined to bus and push and there was not so much fear that a hammer would come down wildly after... the beginning? when dwlee was closest to death there was no real push over the edge, it... it hangs and dissolves because no one takes the final step to get it there, and then it fades in and out

i think that absolute worst case it is, they have to guess and claim whichever pr does not exist, which is a gamble but also one that could work if they really needed dwlee to live, but... post mc esther it is a lot clearer the intent? they have the answer (unless mc gambled as well), and they claim the other PR and get an extra day while keeping the work of bussing. i think perhaps the setup being as it did had some influence on the before but, it is... this is the hardest part to swallow to be so... bold about it? but perhaps in a slower game there is the... feeling that people will think more, and do less

[Roadkill]

still around , whenever if ever needed

[Roadkill]

if, that is how you feel i guess i don't

have a lot to tell you that will change the feeling of a weight, if...

if between a dwlee who does not want to play as much and a sleepless who perhaps does, or is as not burned out, it is not that you... you *choose to* send him far but

you find yourself with no choice if the alternative does not have the energy

i ... i can't help the way that things were randomized if that is the thing you think of, if you are basing it on judging him on ... quality of play? i do not have words and i am sorry but that is... if that is what makes you vote me over him i just ... okay ? i don't know if you want permission or something but it just, it's ... very , frustrating, is all, i won't say more because it would come closer to being more snippy, than i want to be.

[Roadkill]

it is ... a very frustrating thing to be faced with something like that and just going 'okay' because... okay, what do i say? i have given you every reason and it just feels ...

ignored. i guess, even when it isn't.

[Roadkill]

(this is not guilt because i feel you have already very made up your mind and that is just sort of ... okay, i accept, okay.)

[Roadkill]

but, if i am right and you've already made up you mind i do not want to dwell on what i could have, changed or said or anything anymore , i do not want to rush you but please just... end it? i don't want to do this anymore if it is all for nothing

[Roadkill]

(... the experience was not all for nothing this was a very good game it is just ... i have said how if eel)