Mini 2265: Bears with Guns 2: Pandamonium game over

[MathBlade]

Toog feels radically different from here
viewtopic.php?t=88618&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

I can't tell the difference.

Toogeloo

feels null to me.

Plus he's apparently scumreading

Cat Scratch Fever

whom I'm also slightly scumreading so that's a plus for him.

Jackson and Toog are on CSF so CSF is town to me

[Nero Cain]

im late again

[StrangeMatter]

I was thinking of Vanderscamp and wavemode.
Both reek of scum utilizing the momentum, but wavemodes seems less likely to come from town VOTE: Wavemode

Idk this is a bit of a trend with this game from what I'm seeing at the moment and I hate repeating myself too much, but I need you to explain this a lot further. What makes your point that it is scum utilizing momentum?

[StrangeMatter]

im late again

I'm sure you'll get it eventually.

[JacksonVirgo]

1. Unlikely. That’s too specific
2. Informed.

Even if I am tunnelled that isn’t because ego? This is a very weird path Jackson.

And I agree Dwlee Toog is more active as town.

1. It isn't. It was a joke role I made with Worst when I was still active here. It also came up in my brain because of memories of the previous bwg game where I fakeclaimed it to.bus Toog. Or are you selectively forgetting that game too?

2. Ever heard of occams razor? Nah u just wanna tunnel

[JacksonVirgo]

1. Unlikely. That’s too specific
2. Informed.

Even if I am tunnelled that isn’t because ego? This is a very weird path Jackson.

And I agree Dwlee Toog is more active as town.

Also it is in part ego as you still thibk ur solve is even remotely correct and forcibly making a path that ends in that false end result

[JacksonVirgo]

I am going to put this in as much detail as I can possibly do so that you can understand why what you are doing is ego-tunnelling and that I feel this discussion is stupid as I do not think that resolving this with me dying is a bad thing either. I also am extremely frustrated with you completely ignoring every single thing I say that goes against your case, enough where I do feel you are scum to my entire core but I also know this read is up in the air because I tend to scum-read out of anger rather than out of actual logic. My death will also solve your role, and I trust others to solve you beyond that and I am not reliable emotionally enough to do so.

Day one you had a scum-read on momo, and if I recall correctly you believed them to be almost confirmed scum due to them actively deciding to not claim when they were placed onto E-1. While I was catching up, I voted who I currently thought was scum in which was the moment you started thinking I was scum alongside them for not having the same read as you. This was the start of where you are making reads based onto either complete ego, or you are scum trying to make cases on those without actual reason. The core of this read was flawed, not only because momo was evidently Town, but also I was not even finished catching up with the game which was obvious if you had any sense of the game-state regarding me specifically. When I tried to peacefully resolve this flawed read/assumption, you continuously decide to

ignore

what I said. Continuously claiming that I had no reads etc, when I kept disproving that you chose to either actively ignore out of either ego, or out of scum trying to form an active negative reputation of myself, this was the moment where I started finding you repulsive but that's not part of the discussion.

From what I see, and feel free to inform me if this was not the case and why, these are your overall cases on me for being scum and why I think they are stupid in as simple terms as I can possibly do.

1. I did not reciprocate the momo read when I was not even caught up to the moment where I even knew they were a serious wagon.
   
2. I claimed a role similar to your own. You decide to immediately assume I am informed scum that is role-baiting. If you know the Occams Razor argument, you should probably know that forming an entire read based off of this is naive and prone to confirmation bias and tunnel-visioning. It takes the assumptions that I am scum as well as an informed role as well as informed specifically about your role and ballsy enough to openly bait a killing role into revealing themselves when I could get killed for doing so. It could be a perspective issue which I am failing to see because I do not know your exact role, or that I am only seeing you as either scum or stupid.

That is all I see of your case and the entirety of it is flawed to all hell, I can understand suspecting me for contraditory tone like Greeting or just because I am not acting super townie overall or not posting much. but you are actively deciding to take the absolute most flawed path I can ever imagine. I seriously do not care that you supposedly poisoned me as I have been constantly expressing that I truly believe me dying is important at this point, what I have a deep issue for is that you are either stupid!town or you are scum. And if you are in fact stupid town, following a blind ego-tunnel, this is me trying to get you to escape that position as a town killing role with your type of playstyle is a complete detriment and liability to the town as a whole.

[JacksonVirgo]

Reason I am trying to convince you to not be stupid is because you are claiming a killing role and as it currently stands I think you are the worst possible person to have received that role, assuming you are actually what you claim and I want to minimise the damage that you do.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VOTE: Cat scratch nah this is scum. Voting a LHF, has no reads and then puts a retraction/safety net notice when they voted so they can get oit of a town flip easier.

I still dont like Greeting but I thini thats just their personality

Have no reads? That’s just straight up untrue. It’s true that I have no confident reads, but I think anyone who does at this point in the game is just very confident by nature or lying.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Do you reciprocate my reasoning at all though

I had a suspicion based on Day 1 activity. I don't not disagree with your reasoning though.

Expand?

[JacksonVirgo]

VOTE: Cat scratch nah this is scum. Voting a LHF, has no reads and then puts a retraction/safety net notice when they voted so they can get oit of a town flip easier.

I still dont like Greeting but I thini thats just their personality

Have no reads? That’s just straight up untrue. It’s true that I have no confident reads, but I think anyone who does at this point in the game is just very confident by nature or lying.

It's obvious you have reads. I am referring to you having no scum-reads at all.

[JacksonVirgo]

If you don't even have a scum-read, starting day 2 there is something wrong.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I have two people who I’ve demarcated as willing to vote out more than other, I’m just not very sure of them. I play by mostly town hunting and ordering my reads from town to scum and whoever is least towny just goes into the “will eliminate” pile.

[JacksonVirgo]

It's easy for scum to have town-reads, and harder to have scum-reads. That's why I see scum sitting on the fence a lot, afraid to make a move in fear of retaliation or backfire. Nothing you are doing is convincing me that this isn't the case.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Note that Vanderscamp did not vote me, but Cat Scratch Fever used Vanderscamp's reasoning and then sheeped Malakittens into voting me. That's a great way to miseliminate town without bringing much attention to themselves.

Yeah this is reaching because vanders wasn’t voting anyone? So I wasn’t going to be building any wagons by sheeping his non-vote.

Also sheeping isn’t scummy.

[JacksonVirgo]

I have two people who I’ve demarcated as willing to vote out more than other, I’m just not very sure of them. I play by mostly town hunting and ordering my reads from town to scum and whoever is least towny just goes into the “will eliminate” pile.

I have never seen someone's main playstyle for town being town-hunting outside of those purposefully doing so to make them unreadable via meta (as it is easy as anything to fake). It also opens you up to get pocketed super easily, like insanely easily.

[JacksonVirgo]

Note that Vanderscamp did not vote me, but Cat Scratch Fever used Vanderscamp's reasoning and then sheeped Malakittens into voting me. That's a great way to miseliminate town without bringing much attention to themselves.

Yeah this is reaching because vanders wasn’t voting anyone? So I wasn’t going to be building any wagons by sheeping his non-vote.

Also sheeping isn’t scummy.

Sheeping isn't. You are using them as a suspicion shield.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

How so? I have my own reasons for scumreading greeting.

And no one as far as I can recall has ever been able to hide from suspicion because they sheeped someone else’s vote.

[JacksonVirgo]

To clarify further, sheeping by itself isn't. But sheeping is not the case I have against you

[Cat Scratch Fever]

you’re accusing me of having no scumreads when that isn’t the case.

[JacksonVirgo]

You literally have no scum-read of your own, like at all. Day 2 and the most you have is a scum-lean and the moment you vote on that you are incredibly hesitant enough to intend, whether it is purposeful or not, to put the blame on being wrong onto Mala.

As I have said, you are using them as a suspicion shield. You either have no backbone as a Town, or you are scum too afraid to put yourself out there. And I rarely ever see the former, in my four years of online mafia.

[JacksonVirgo]

you’re accusing me of having no scumreads when that isn’t the case.

You don't. You have scum-leans on Greeting and dwlee as per 495. If you had a scum-read on either you wouldn't be as hesitant as you are. Either that or your read on them is so fake that you are afraid to put yourself out there.

[JacksonVirgo]

You have also said many times, including in this current discussion that you are "not very sure"

[JacksonVirgo]

oh well I'll post it anyway, since this game is so quiet.

Dwlee - scumreads toog and that's kind of it --->

nullscum

Greeting - they seem to be pushing people for doing weird/bizarre things that are anti-town while ignoring the town things about them --->

nullscum

JacksonVirgo - no idea. feels like he's given up but also feels like he doesn't care about dying. could be scum bravado but idk --->

null

Malakittens - already talked about a bit earlier but also I think their reaction to being pushed reads as genuinely tilted rather than trying to emotionally manipulate --->

townlean

Math - I believe their claim, and I also kind of don't think they would claim so early as scum --->

town

MegA - Kind of want to say town just based on 277 --->

nulltown

Strange - it's funny he called out me and some others for not contributing much to the game from given his ISO also doesn't have much AI in it, but that hypocrisy isn't necessarily scum indicative --->

null

Toog - some people here want a Toog lim and I don't really have any reason to argue against it, but I also don't have confidence this will flip scum. I feel like town Toog can be kind of low effort and limbaity. --

null

Vanders - we seem to be agreeing on Mala and Greeting, which normally wouldn't sway me much in one direction or another, but I need reads that are not null so I'll bump them up a bit. 446 is annoying logic but probably NAI given the 2012 join date. interested in why dwlee is town though. -->

nulltown

wavemode - interested in why they think Toog and Greeting are town but otherwise not a whole lot else here --->

null

This is also your post before stating your vote. Where is the scums. All I see is null-scums aka scum-leans, possibly even weaker.

Why lie

[JacksonVirgo]

One of your posts*