Infernal Affairs - Game Over!

[Tejate Raichu]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

wait a second -- why did you think that there was another vig though? are you making some deduction there?

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

Pedit: There's your answer Tejate, was already on that.

Then, a follow up question. If we're assuming the vigi hood was in fact all town and all of them are dead, does that make Scorpious' claim more believable to you as a townie claim? He's the only one here who's really claimed a role that has a somewhat clear tie in with the theme, at least from my view. And if there's no "mole" in the hood, then that's about the closest thing we have out in the open.

[MagikHorse]

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

fire said something about the "last vig claiming their target" earlier today

That was before the claims. Nobody claimed Vig, and the kill numbers otherwise make sense. Maybe you're onto something, why did Fire think there was another unclaimed Vig?

[MagikHorse]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

wait a second -- why did you think that there was another vig though? are you making some deduction there?

Reread my posts. I was speculating Fire of being in the Vigi hood over one of his posts, and he's explaining why he likely wasn't in this response. Nobody currently is saying anything about there actually being an additional Vig, only suspicion that there was potentially a Mafia in the hood. I'm starting to think that assumption of Mafia being in the hood is likely incorrect.

Pedit: There's your answer Tejate, was already on that.

Then, a follow up question. If we're assuming the vigi hood was in fact all town and all of them are dead, does that make Scorpious' claim more believable to you as a townie claim? He's the only one here who's really claimed a role that has a somewhat clear tie in with the theme, at least from my view. And if there's no "mole" in the hood, then that's about the closest thing we have out in the open.

Given the tie-in to the theme, that question would be better spent asked towards someone who had not openly admitted to not actually watching the movie it was themed after like me. All I can say here is "I really have no idea".

[MagikHorse]

Like, at best I can say "maybe yes" because I doubt the main character was just one of 4 Vigilantes or an average joe, but that's about the best shot I can take at it.

[Scorpious]

so far everyone in neighborhood was town. I heavily doubt pooky threw in 4 town neighbors no scum.
got to be a scum in there that didn't announce and it doesn't look like any of vigs crumbed the hood.

So im thinking someone is neighbor not saying. Probably one of hellbrooks/scorpious too
Or could be scum in VT claims.

Why do you heavily doing a mod would set up the game in a certain way? Are you close with them? Have you played their games often?

Or are you just generalizing?

It’s just a really weird way to present speculation on the setup. Like, Am I supposed to trust you more?

What’s the angle here?

[Scorpious]

Ebwop “doubt”.
Sorry for not previewing

[Toogeloo]

I'm absolutely committed to Not Mafia at this point. I've had my vote there for days now, I don't intend on moving it.

[Firebringer]

this speculation of me being in neighborhood is silly. don't u think nero would shoot me if i was in a vigi hood night 1 if i was in a hood? and that i would out the hood?
Nero was scumreading me all game, if i was in a hood with him and the neighborhood all panicked on each other last night, i would be the one he shot instead i think he shot STD over paranoia.

wait a second -- why did you think that there was another vig though? are you making some deduction there?

i miscounted number of shots and dead vigis in beginning of day.

[Firebringer]

how is it a kamikaze openning gambit to push two of ur teammates in the way Frog was pushing tej/magik
i don't see how that is convoluted at all, when weaker scum players are in game they tend try to force situations of distance with partners that they don't need to which if its magik/tej and both of them are super active. Frog needs to interact with them in some way or else he looks weird. So why not force a distance by pushing em?

im not up to date with "bussing meta" but i just have a hard time believing that frog would go about it in the way that he did. like he would just have randomly decided to name two of his partners and hyperfocus on them and ignore EVERYONE else. all the while lurking and drawing suspicion to himself
im not saying its impossible like esp with tej, i could see frog/tej because tej was a secondary partner. i could even hypothetically see frog/magik but i think magik is town outside of that interaction. but both just seems like weridly blatant and improbable

I don't see it as this was Frog trying to focus on his partners. I think this was 'im focusing on most active players and they are scum so i should't get much scrutiny' approach a newbie scum might take. And my idea is that Frog is playing on that newbie mindset of feeling it is safer to make inadequate pushes on teammates than actually make up reasons to scumread town. I don't think this is far fetched, it might not be "optimal" but i don't see why u think scum would always play to most optimal play. Like r u telling me he planned to draw suspicion on himself by hyperfocusing on the most active town players because that seems more suicidal than the alternate of safely distancing from said partners. Even if its just one of them being his partner its still safer.

This is like not a good rebuttal to what happened

[Firebringer]

Game seems dead. Many of those of the town faction must be feeling defeated already.

pls no apathy post.

[MagikHorse]

I'm absolutely committed to Not Mafia at this point. I've had my vote there for days now, I don't intend on moving it.

Even if the rest of the town isn't with you?

[Firebringer]

Like, it's incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you're just freakishly paranoid about me under Mislim and Lose type pressure or if you're intentionally trying to keep me as an open option despite all prior claims you've made.

I don't see it as paranoia. Theres a few things i know right now.
1) I am still alive in this game
2) Ur still alive in this game
3) I townread u all game.

So that leaves me thinking theres a very good reason we are both alive. Either scum think I can be misyeeted or the more likely option is that I been pocketed by deepwolf who thinks they are safe from me voting them.
And you fit that category the best right now.

I am very much leaning into my reads have been pretty bad this game and so i am not under assumption ive been left to just be misyeeted. I think under normal scrutiny your posts seem like town and ur pushing game forward but under closer inspection I don't see you actually getting to heart of mindset of players. Its more speculation of actions/possibilities and even stuff Ive considered on surface level. In fact while I don't remember any specific points I know uve been echoing some of the things I have said a lot of this game.

So no, I don't think this is just 'paranoia' ur literally at the top of my list right now because if anyone is a deepwolf. Its definitely you.
Tejerate could be town, I think he has pointed out better flaws in my thought process of how everyone been scumreading him including the people almost certainly vigged/misyeets. I still think its very likely he could be scum but if one of you two is scum, I am putting money on you.

[MagikHorse]

how is it a kamikaze openning gambit to push two of ur teammates in the way Frog was pushing tej/magik
i don't see how that is convoluted at all, when weaker scum players are in game they tend try to force situations of distance with partners that they don't need to which if its magik/tej and both of them are super active. Frog needs to interact with them in some way or else he looks weird. So why not force a distance by pushing em?

im not up to date with "bussing meta" but i just have a hard time believing that frog would go about it in the way that he did. like he would just have randomly decided to name two of his partners and hyperfocus on them and ignore EVERYONE else. all the while lurking and drawing suspicion to himself
im not saying its impossible like esp with tej, i could see frog/tej because tej was a secondary partner. i could even hypothetically see frog/magik but i think magik is town outside of that interaction. but both just seems like weridly blatant and improbable

I don't see it as this was Frog trying to focus on his partners. I think this was 'im focusing on most active players and they are scum so i should't get much scrutiny' approach a newbie scum might take. And my idea is that Frog is playing on that newbie mindset of feeling it is safer to make inadequate pushes on teammates than actually make up reasons to scumread town. I don't think this is far fetched, it might not be "optimal" but i don't see why u think scum would always play to most optimal play. Like r u telling me he planned to draw suspicion on himself by hyperfocusing on the most active town players because that seems more suicidal than the alternate of safely distancing from said partners. Even if its just one of them being his partner its still safer.

This is like not a good rebuttal to what happened

Did you see the sheer number of my posts he pulled up? Is that what "not a lot of scrutiny" looks like? Are we playing the same game here? Frog isn't a "newbie scum" either, his join date is old and it appears to me like he has many games under his belt.

[Firebringer]

Also i massively disagree with the idea of taking the PR claims of the table for lims today. Besides the claims I don't think either slot has been exceptionally townie to do that.
Not Mafia is hands down a no go for me too btw.

[Firebringer]

By no go I am saying I am not voting not mafia ever today.

[Firebringer]

Did you see the sheer number of my posts he pulled up? Is that what "not a lot of scrutiny" looks like? Are we playing the same game here? Frog isn't a "newbie scum" either, his join date is old and it appears to me like he has many games under his belt.

did u misread my post

[Firebringer]

i went and looked at frogster account. He has played like less than 12 games in the 8-9 years his account been active on this site. 3 games in the last year.
I don't know what qualifies as "newbie" anymore. So if u want to quivel over that Idc. To me it seemed like inexperienced scum.

[MagikHorse]

Like, it's incredibly frustrating trying to figure out if you're just freakishly paranoid about me under Mislim and Lose type pressure or if you're intentionally trying to keep me as an open option despite all prior claims you've made.

I don't see it as paranoia. Theres a few things i know right now.
1) I am still alive in this game
2) Ur still alive in this game
3) I townread u all game.

So that leaves me thinking theres a very good reason we are both alive. Either scum think I can be misyeeted or the more likely option is that I been pocketed by deepwolf who thinks they are safe from me voting them.
And you fit that category the best right now.

I am very much leaning into my reads have been pretty bad this game and so i am not under assumption ive been left to just be misyeeted. I think under normal scrutiny your posts seem like town and ur pushing game forward but under closer inspection I don't see you actually getting to heart of mindset of players. Its more speculation of actions/possibilities and even stuff Ive considered on surface level. In fact while I don't remember any specific points I know uve been echoing some of the things I have said a lot of this game.

So no, I don't think this is just 'paranoia' ur literally at the top of my list right now because if anyone is a deepwolf. Its definitely you.
Tejerate could be town, I think he has pointed out better flaws in my thought process of how everyone been scumreading him including the people almost certainly vigged/misyeets. I still think its very likely he could be scum but if one of you two is scum, I am putting money on you.

I'm getting to the heart of people in a different way than you may be used to, and in a way Nero didn't particularly like either. Perhaps I haven't quite hit my full stride after not playing in nearly 2 years. I could say the same things about myself being alive as well, that I haven't been pushing reads hard enough or the scum don't see me as a threat to them. Even you've realized the latter, knowing full well that I was not dying in any world on N2 with the painfully obvious shot on Nero, and yet you deem me guilty because of it. I haven't been the most outspoken about my reads, or locking myself into a singular solve the way you and a few other players have, knowing full well that information flows and does not remain constant. I am built to bend, not to risk snapping by being that kind of stiff.

And if you are town, this thinking will lead us off a cliff into disaster.

I don't want to 1v1 you if you are town, knowing that doing so is tantamount to throwing the game for the town, but you are making it incredibly difficult to work with you. Double check the Frogster interactions and tell me that this is what a scum chasing after his buddy looks like. I dare you at this point. I am growing more and more frustrated with each passing moment that you hurl this upon me, blind to your own paranoia, assuming the worst intentions from my every move and completely unable to comprehend what lies at my core. If I were scum, why would I be one of the biggest components towards kicking Day 1 into an informed state? If I were scum and Tejate town as you're finally starting to play around with, why wouldn't Frogster go after Tejate first and leave me as the secondary option? Do you really think I can deepwolf this strongly, despite making an obvious and stupid mistake regarding HellBooks? Do you honestly believe I'd u-turn my reads on Hellbooks after discovering said mistake? Why would I bother to pocket you of all people? Off of a single game from years ago that I could hardly keep up with? You were hardly the towniest person in the game for you to be of that sort of value as a pocket to begin with. Not as bad as the time I was accused of trying to pocket the Day 1 elim, but it's very much a paranoid line of thinking whether you think of it that way or not.

You may call me lazy.

You may not like my methods of hunting.

But we do NOT have the time for this garbage if you are town. You've been making a whole heap of assumptions this entire day enough as it is. It's time to let that one rest.

[MagikHorse]

Like hell (the word in speech, not the player)... with 5 votes and presumably 3 scum the town absolutely must vote as a block to stand any chance at all. You've more or less been pushing completely against the grain with rather insufficient reasoning the whole day, which will ensure the town's defeat if you are in fact town without stronger reasoning to back it up than "I don't believe the claims" or "I'm alive, you're alive, I must be pocketed". Toogeloo's insistence on voting Not_Mafia out is similarly unhelpful for similar reasons, there's not much of a case being made by him either and the scum obviously don't have the numbers to try and arrange a quickhammer here.

I really don't see how this sort of play is supposed to help the town, especially knowing that you're basically scumreading me off of some utterly insane idea that Frogster's initial push was a scum bussing attempt (it's not, I think you're the only person who believes this at all), a distaste for my playstyle, and a ghost pocket (which I can potentially see how you'd think that at the least).

[Firebringer]

ive already stated why im not voting not mafia. Toogeloo is going for the safe and easy route which is both annoying and sadly could easily be town who doesn't care about this game.

And I don't think ive been the most towniest person in this game to be a target for pocket. But I think ive been active enough voice that having me on a players side is beneficial to the point that I extremely defend players i townread. R u saying thats not useful to scum!u? or u saying that u don't pocket players when u play?
U make it sound like im considering myself a special snowflake and i never have made myself that way. I am a loud voice in a game and sometimes its a boon and other times its double edged blade. I certainly don't think its a 'good' plan for scum to try to pocket me but thats for entirely diff reasons.

Theres actually a whole lot of stuff to unpack in ur posts and im going to be talking indefinitely.
And the more u say u don't want a 1v1 the more I want one cause I think ur throwing a lot of dirt out while not calling me scum because u don't want to commit to pushing me.

the "not liking methods of hunting" never said that. I don't think this is u actual scumhunting now that ive thought about it more.
And yes ive made alot of assumptions. I have made assumptions almost this entire game. You have done so to. What is this point ur making and how is it relevent to my points? I am wrong on alot of these assumptions so therefore this one is also wrong?

[MagikHorse]

I've never had a scumgame go on for long enough for any sort of pocketing to really occur, not in my memory. Not even I know if scum!me pockets people or not because, despite Frogster's claim of me being good scum, I've never lasted past Day 1 in any sort of viable state as scum and never put any sort of effort or focus onto one. One game I replaced out of, didn't really pocket anyone and only made it through part of a day before replacing out due to illness. Another I was mech screwed on Day 2 and surrendered to the town. The third was the one we shared that went way too fast for me to really keep up, and you ended up winning on your own because of the mechanics of that particular game. Is it something I'd focus on consciously? Hell no, I didn't in any game so far. Would it happen subconsciously? Hell if I know, there's no suitable data for me to look at in hindsight and the only previous serious pocketing claim I've had was also from town to town... supposedly pocketing a guy who was limmed D1 because I defended him against the loudest guy in the town. I may have underestimated your loudness as a factor, but I also believe same as I did then that a pocket with a decent chance at a day lim is also not very good and you were looking like that for quite a while with a fair number of people poking at you. If any reasoning holds out for me to avoid pocketing you, it would be that.

I'm holding out on calling you scum on a belief that you're simply wildly wrong town, and I thought as much was already clear from how I was talking to you. Yes, there's a chance I'm holding onto an early read tighter than I should again despite your Day 2 ringing no real bells at all for me, and I've been bitten in the butt by it before. On the surface it looks like scum sowing disunity with such radically different opinions from everyone else and the extra effort on what could be the final day, but given the nature of how it began it looks equally like growing paranoia of me being alive evolving into this mess we're in right now which could come from misguided town, hence why I'm more trying to understand why you're doing it over flatly accusing you. Instead of considering that I might be legitimately confused as to which it is you once again made the assumption that I must not want to push you but be scum nonetheless. That itself feels confbias as heck, like most of your case against me.

You've been guilty of throwing dirt at me all day, most of it which I can't even argue against because it's all bad assumption making regarding Frogster and my continued existence in the game, but me throwing some back to say "I think you're on the wrong track" is somehow bad? Pot, meet kettle. Most everything else is either disbelief that I'm actually hunting or not liking my methods (which no, you didn't directly say but rather pointedly hinted at by saying I "wasn't getting to the heart of players") so there's little I can do to talk without you bringing up those concerns in the form of more direct questions. It'd certainly help a ton more than trying to base me off of Frogster's play or other things I cannot prove or disprove, only point at and say "look again". That sort of push is infuriating at its core.

Regarding the assumptions you seem to assume that my problem is that you're making assumptions at all, which is sorely misreading it. The issue is the fact that most of these assumptions today are not agreeable whatsoever which hasn't been the case on previous days, and yet you're pushing them like they're hard facts despite nobody else being at your back. As I said earlier town must meet and agree with town on a day like today, and if nobody agrees with your points then sticking on them isn't particularly good without greater evidence, and I almost fear you wouldn't hammer when the time runs out if you didn't agree on the wagon. There is potential that doing so might not immediately result in a loss given the even number of players, but it is a concern nonetheless that also applies to Toogaloo as previously mentioned. You're beating the same drums repeatedly and not giving much if anything new for them. As previously said I don't think this is ultimately helpful for the town at this stage unless it actually gets some backing to it, but none seems forthcoming.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is I am not voting HellBooks today in any world and no argument would be convincing enough, it is objectively terrible given Scorpius' claim. I will also not vote Scorpius without a far better case on them, and even then it'd have to be mind-blowing good for it to happen today. I don't believe such a case could possibly exist for Not_Mafia given their meta and playing standards, and will also not vote there today mostly in respect to Fire's claim and the excessive ease in pushing them. Currently I would prefer to vote Keeper or Toogeloo, neither have been doing much this entire game and could easily be coasting (in this order, Keeper's responses to being poked about their general lack of content has been worse between the two). No I don't have a lock on scum #3 yet, nor many clues on who that would be as of this time. I believe passing the day to night stands a good chance of not being an instant game over, but has little to yield short of fewer town needing to agree on the scum. I doubt the existence of an SK, Night 2's kill count is too clean and Night 1 didn't have any more kills despite there being an additional Vigi insinuating that a Vigi also shot the nightkill target/hit a protected Andante as the most likely actions. If anyone has pocketed me it'd be my own actions putting myself into Tejate's pocket more likely than not.

[Scorpious]

This is SvT. or even SvS I'd honestly like to see it develop more.

I will say this, in late game situations (i know D3 being late is a trip)scum tend to be more active in trying to convince they are not. I'd like Fire to convince me today that they are not scum in this, that's where I'm looking right now, just so quick with the: "Let's massclaim, I'm VT" I really cant get passed it. especially to proceed on to say they'yre not feeling the PR claims.



I need these 2 to back and forth for my own sanity.

[Scorpious]

Spoiler:

I've never had a scumgame go on for long enough for any sort of pocketing to really occur, not in my memory. Not even I know if scum!me pockets people or not because, despite Frogster's claim of me being good scum, I've never lasted past Day 1 in any sort of viable state as scum and never put any sort of effort or focus onto one. One game I replaced out of, didn't really pocket anyone and only made it through part of a day before replacing out due to illness. Another I was mech screwed on Day 2 and surrendered to the town. The third was the one we shared that went way too fast for me to really keep up, and you ended up winning on your own because of the mechanics of that particular game. Is it something I'd focus on consciously? Hell no, I didn't in any game so far. Would it happen subconsciously? Hell if I know, there's no suitable data for me to look at in hindsight and the only previous serious pocketing claim I've had was also from town to town... supposedly pocketing a guy who was limmed D1 because I defended him against the loudest guy in the town. I may have underestimated your loudness as a factor, but I also believe same as I did then that a pocket with a decent chance at a day lim is also not very good and you were looking like that for quite a while with a fair number of people poking at you. If any reasoning holds out for me to avoid pocketing you, it would be that.

I'm holding out on calling you scum on a belief that you're simply wildly wrong town, and I thought as much was already clear from how I was talking to you. Yes, there's a chance I'm holding onto an early read tighter than I should again despite your Day 2 ringing no real bells at all for me, and I've been bitten in the butt by it before. On the surface it looks like scum sowing disunity with such radically different opinions from everyone else and the extra effort on what could be the final day, but given the nature of how it began it looks equally like growing paranoia of me being alive evolving into this mess we're in right now which could come from misguided town, hence why I'm more trying to understand why you're doing it over flatly accusing you. Instead of considering that I might be legitimately confused as to which it is you once again made the assumption that I must not want to push you but be scum nonetheless. That itself feels confbias as heck, like most of your case against me.

You've been guilty of throwing dirt at me all day, most of it which I can't even argue against because it's all bad assumption making regarding Frogster and my continued existence in the game, but me throwing some back to say "I think you're on the wrong track" is somehow bad? Pot, meet kettle. Most everything else is either disbelief that I'm actually hunting or not liking my methods (which no, you didn't directly say but rather pointedly hinted at by saying I "wasn't getting to the heart of players") so there's little I can do to talk without you bringing up those concerns in the form of more direct questions. It'd certainly help a ton more than trying to base me off of Frogster's play or other things I cannot prove or disprove, only point at and say "look again". That sort of push is infuriating at its core.

Regarding the assumptions you seem to assume that my problem is that you're making assumptions at all, which is sorely misreading it. The issue is the fact that most of these assumptions today are not agreeable whatsoever which hasn't been the case on previous days, and yet you're pushing them like they're hard facts despite nobody else being at your back. As I said earlier town must meet and agree with town on a day like today, and if nobody agrees with your points then sticking on them isn't particularly good without greater evidence, and I almost fear you wouldn't hammer when the time runs out if you didn't agree on the wagon. There is potential that doing so might not immediately result in a loss given the even number of players, but it is a concern nonetheless that also applies to Toogaloo as previously mentioned. You're beating the same drums repeatedly and not giving much if anything new for them. As previously said I don't think this is ultimately helpful for the town at this stage unless it actually gets some backing to it, but none seems forthcoming.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Fact of the matter is I am not voting HellBooks today in any world and no argument would be convincing enough, it is objectively terrible given Scorpius' claim. I will also not vote Scorpius without a far better case on them, and even then it'd have to be mind-blowing good for it to happen today. I don't believe such a case could possibly exist for Not_Mafia given their meta and playing standards, and will also not vote there today mostly in respect to Fire's claim and the excessive ease in pushing them. Currently I would prefer to vote Keeper or Toogeloo, neither have been doing much this entire game and could easily be coasting (in this order, Keeper's responses to being poked about their general lack of content has been worse between the two). No I don't have a lock on scum #3 yet, nor many clues on who that would be as of this time. I believe passing the day to night stands a good chance of not being an instant game over, but has little to yield short of fewer town needing to agree on the scum. I doubt the existence of an SK, Night 2's kill count is too clean and Night 1 didn't have any more kills despite there being an additional Vigi insinuating that a Vigi also shot the nightkill target/hit a protected Andante as the most likely actions. If anyone has pocketed me it'd be my own actions putting myself into Tejate's pocket more likely than not.

Horse's 1520

I've read this 3 times. I keep coming up with "feel bad for me,I'm late game(again I know) scum and I don't know how to make you guys see me as town".

[MagikHorse]

Why do you think there's absolutely a scum between us?

[Scorpious]

Why do you think there's absolutely a scum between us?

Well, I’ve read fire as scum this whole game. And someone, Maybe Toog? Was talking about town side being kinda meh with the state of the game. They were accused of ATe, I disagree..

I feel that.

I’m as good as dead tonight or blocked anyway so my motivation has been sapped. I have no idea what happened with the neighbors . I’m almost more interested about getting this over with and seeing what the hell happened.

But the short answer, is that you guys are still really into this while as much as I want to I can’t find the oomph.
The math isn’t there for us to mislim either.. so I think at least one of you is scum,, GTH I’d say just fire before both of you. But that is exactly why I’m hoping we get some 1v1 from you. I don’t see me going NM tonight. And obviously I’m not going with hell.. again math. Poe puts a high probability as one of you being scum, probabilities of you both are up their too..