Mini Theme 2264: Fusion Upick | Post Game

[Toogeloo]

Looking at players list I have my first townread. TOOGELOO!

Every single time I've played this guy he was TOWN, so I guess I'll go with it for as long as it lasts.

deja vu

[Toogeloo]

A50 ain't wrong though.

I am ALWAYS town...

...except when I'm not.

[Toogeloo]

Cat Scratch, Andante, and Rad Rat probably understand why I'm laughing in real life right now over A50's opening posts..

[Toogeloo]

Cat Scratch, Andante, and Rad Rat probably understand why I'm laughing in real life right now over A50's opening posts..

You want to share it with me now or is it better to wait for post-game?

I can't discuss it due to [REDACTED].

[Toogeloo]

Knowing who's madding the game I can't tell if there's a standard 10-3 distribution or not. Anything is possible with Meg, so I'll just leave it at that

Its in the rules.

[Toogeloo]

Know what, I'm totally willing to follow A50 here.

VOTE: Roden

[Toogeloo]

Knowing who's madding the game I can't tell if there's a standard 10-3 distribution or not. Anything is possible with Meg, so I'll just leave it at that

Its in the rules.

The wording is very specific. It does not say that we don't have 3P or a second groupscum, just that a three person scum team exists.

I love that you can argue the ambiguity of role pms is still clear enough to tell what your specific fusions are, but the specifics of the rules should be considered ambiguous for the setup.

[Toogeloo]

Doesn't a Vengeful WANT to get eliminated?

My role name is not an amalgamation of multiple roles. In fact it's two words, and the first word is literally Town.

[Toogeloo]

Nope, nuh uh. I refuse to believe that the fervor that A50 pushed Roden with comes from scum on what many of us saw after it was pointed out. I think Roden exacerbated the issue by not considering that town would think they made a slip and instead made it more of a 1v1 than placate the issue. I thought for sure that Roden was flipping scum because of that move alone.

[Toogeloo]

Someone tell me if I'm wrong here, but was Andante's ability basically a Lightning Rod? If so, they might have eaten extra shots, and explain why they died to whomever thought it was weird.

[Toogeloo]

VOTE: Greeting

I support Nathann case. I also didn't like Greeting trying to wash their hands of the Elim by stating they would have unvoted if here after claim. That rubbed me the wrong way.

[Toogeloo]

I'm assuming Flea meant Greeting was softing, something like Gunful Townie or whatever, to show they believed the claim.

The issue is, I'm pretty certain there will always be one or two people who can corroborate a partial claim due to fusion of roles, and for most roles in general, they are probably capable of being town or scum, or at least deliverable to sound town even as scum. I'm not going to hunt for it now, but I'm pretty sure I read something to that effect in the setup rules.

[Toogeloo]

I'm a bit paranoid over Enchant's requirement to be voted everyday as well.

@Enchant: Would you clarify, is voting for you good because it enables you, or prevents a negative function? Like, do you get to do something at night because you got voted, or does getting voted prevent you from dying or something similarly drastic?

It feels negative utility at the moment without clarification because you are asking town to basically lose a vote towards our daily elimination.

[Toogeloo]

I'm a bit paranoid over Enchant's requirement to be voted everyday as well.

@Enchant: Would you clarify, is voting for you good because it enables you, or prevents a negative function? Like, do you get to do something at night because you got voted, or does getting voted prevent you from dying or something similarly drastic?

It feels negative utility at the moment without clarification because you are asking town to basically lose a vote towards our daily elimination.

Will answering that help town?
Because i don't think so.

We need around half of votes to kill, so i don't think it's problem before lategame and at this point i will likely claim and we decide if it's worth it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Enchant

I don't trust it.

[Toogeloo]

Vote me.

I don't mind...

Good, more votes on Enchant, please.

[Toogeloo]

I dunno what'd going on as everybody seems to be SRing someone different, but I do know I didn't intend for Enchant to be a wagon so..

UNVOTE:

Do you town read Enchant?

[Toogeloo]

It's NAI for Flea. Their play is almost always based on their mental health state at that given time.

[Toogeloo]

What's your read on Enchant?

I could maybe vote Radical Rat with you, but I'm curious how I made it to concrete town read status.

[Toogeloo]

not as aggressive in your votes as I'd like.

I'm not aggressive with my vote ever.

In fact...

*ahem*

...I got fused with a double voter, or something akin to a double voter.

I actually have the ability to vote twice if I wanted to.

You're welcome for the free information.

[Toogeloo]

I do concede that Enchant hammering a Venge claim is ballsy, but I think they pointed out that scum would avoid it anyways, which is just a wifom statement in general, especially in light of the fact that it was a Venge claim and not a saint claim. I don't think Enchant is getting enough attention, but I'll give you my support.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Radical Rat

[Toogeloo]

A50 seems humble after yesterday, but subdued works too.

I still want to say that A50's case on Roden came from town, however there is something I remember that gave me a moment's pause...

Knowing who's madding the game I can't tell if there's a standard 10-3 distribution or not. Anything is possible with Meg, so I'll just leave it at that

Its in the rules.

Oh! You read those?? (but secretly )

...considering the case on Roden was based on reading something from the rules, lol.

[Toogeloo]

Ok, serious question to everyone.

Does ANYONE in the game scum read me?

[Toogeloo]

Actually, Toogeloo, why did you feel the need to out your ability (Double-voting) here?

Because I was considering doing it today anyways.

[Toogeloo]

Toog, what's your read on ircher? I noticed you haven't commented there.

I haven't given Ircher any thought, tbqh. Null read for sure.

[Toogeloo]

Not actively but I think you're in the PoE

What is your PoE?

[Toogeloo]

I'd like to know if anyone else scum reads me. I'm Leary of anyone who actively avoids answering this too.

[Toogeloo]

Toog, why are you voting for rat?

Because I was asked nicely.

[Toogeloo]

This setup contains a three player scumteam. The scumteam has multitasking, a factional nightkill, and their PT is open during both the day and night phases. Additionally they have an ability to ask whether or not a certain role name is in the game, at any time, up to 4 times.

This does not exclude the possibility of a third party. I have strong reasons to believe there is in fact one.

If you have strong reason to believe it exists, maybe you should say it. Or do you think town being in the dark about setup is better?

[Toogeloo]

Ooo... You have my attention.

[Toogeloo]

Not actively but I think you're in the PoE

What is your PoE?

Town

Nathan, Nordom, almost
Enchant, Galron, rr
toog, flea - null
Ircher, greeting

Scum

Everyone null and below can just go into the PoE by default

How likely do you think that the solve would be Flea, Ircher, and greeting, and doesn't that feel a little on the nose considering those 3 names are all being pushed today varying amounts?

Why are Enchant, Galron, and Rat all town leans?

[Toogeloo]

I am pretty much going to town-lock dwlee here, but that is now the second player to PoE Ircher, Flea, and Greeting together.

[Toogeloo]

Almost, why is it I am always LHF, except in games where I want to be LHF lol.

[Toogeloo]

Since I am more likely to be shot than eliminated at this point...

I reveal myself.

[Toogeloo]

Almost, why is it I am always LHF, except in games where I want to be LHF lol.

I don't know for sure, but I guess it's your play style.

Counter question (which is totally unrelated actually): Which of Ircher/Flea/Greeting is more likely to be scum in YOUR view? Also, do you have any stronger SRs than these 3?

I really haven't put too much thought into any of them. I think if I were to dismiss one as scum, maybe Flea, but honestly I don't think I've ever played with a scum Flea that I'm aware of and what Flea is doing this game is easily within faer town range.

I still don't like Enchant's play. They are coasting from my pov.

[Toogeloo]

I submitted Innocent VIP.

I am labeled Town Mayor. It's basically a combo innocent child and double voter.

VIP is like a reverse bodyguard. You pick another player, and if the VIP is shot at night, it is redirected to the targeted player instead.

[Toogeloo]

That means Ircher is more or less in hammer range.

[Toogeloo]

I guess there's no limit to how bizzarre some of these roles are. I have never ever heard of the VIP role. I know a Redirector though.

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=VIP

[Toogeloo]

I dun killed the game.

[Toogeloo]

UNVOTE:

I didn't even notice the ascetic claim from Ircher. With both the high poe placement, the claim, and that dwlee, who's probably lockdown after there claim (given ai am now confirmed town), Ircher is probably the best Elim today.

Holding both votes for now, but I think that is where I'm leaning.

[Toogeloo]

Explain to me the plan. I'm lost, or stupid. Maybe both.

[Toogeloo]

Anyone scum reading dwlee reconsider going into night. The slot had no reason to claim knowledge that Mafia targeted me last night if they were scum.

[Toogeloo]

I can split my votes.

I 100% agree that dwlee was the wrong clear. From my PoV, they were already lock town, and as an investigative, they were already a threat to scum.

What's done is done though.

Busy at the moment, will be back later after a few more slots check in. I disagree with Enchant that we are in potential MeLo here, only 4 players are dead.

[Toogeloo]

If we are going to treat this like MeLo, then the time for vagueness is over. Ircher should claim exactly what they are, and why the ascetic claim, and then Almost should claim exactly what information they have.

[Toogeloo]

Tell me what it does.

[Toogeloo]

And tell me everything you've done with it.

[Toogeloo]

Not actively but I think you're in the PoE

What is your PoE?

Town

Nathan, Nordom, almost
Enchant, Galron, rr
toog, flea - null
Ircher, greeting

Scum

Everyone null and below can just go into the PoE by default

Give me a new reads list, por favor.

[Toogeloo]

I'm of the mind that eliminating Ircher here is the correct play solely on the "Lim all Liars," principle. The ascetic claim wasn't done in good faith or in jest, so the only reason to claim it would be to avoid town from targeting them.

Enchant, I think it's time you claim considering we don't have much in the way of disposable votes going forward. You have a confirmed Townie requesting it, and I'm more likely to be killed.tonight than you are.

Afterwards, we can discuss if we want the remaining players to claim.

[Toogeloo]

Would you redirect Mafia night kills if the mafiosi doing the kill was also voting you that day?

[Toogeloo]

If scum had control of a vig shot, I can't see why they wouldn't have used it already, especially with two confirmed townies last night.

It's theoretically plausible that if scum were given a gun but didn't use it, and took no other action, they were forced to target Andante on Night 1, right? It's also theoretically plausible that Roden, not having enough information to work with, decided not to give a gun to anyone, right?

I might go and check and see who Roden was town reading Day 1, but I'm not sure it's really important.

Anyone who's been paying more attention than me have a list of known possible fusions and submissions at this point?

[Toogeloo]

I'm still confused exactly what Ircher claimed. I know it's been summed up as Neighbor and Arsonist, but has anyone claimed to be Neighbored yet? Is it a killing role, or a neighbor using one?
Is Ircher just priming people and then activating a neighborhood all at once?

Flea, is your role designed to kill with the Arsonist sub-fusion?

For the record, my only town reads still alive are Almost and Noraa, but my confidence in those isn't even close to how confident I was on dwlee before day's end yesterday. I can't shake the feeling that at least one scum hasn't been avoiding wide spread attention, and my gut keeps saying one scum is Cat Scratch Fever. I think however, that eliminating Ircher is still the correct play.

[Toogeloo]

Anyone else feel their claim might break open the game a little more before I commit to my position on today's direction?

I'm at a point where I think the status quo for the scum isn't changing, and they are fine with today's pushes. There hasn't been too much pushback against A50 as a counter wagon to Ircher, bor has there really been any push for a counter wagon in general aside from a couple of vanity votes.

I got a little laugh at Noraa calling me possible scum though. It's a uPick. When am I never going to line myself up as town in a uPick if I can? I despise playing scum.

[Toogeloo]

I'm not even sure if anyone could viably fake claim. Other than a role like my role, it's even started in the rules that any role can be of any alignment.

[Toogeloo]

Sounds like you may have taken a twist on the VIP of my claim.

[Toogeloo]

I'm torn here, I've been second guessing my reads over the past 48 hours or so. I have trust issues apparently.

Almost knows they can call me town and get early town cred. Them calling out Roden for scum knowing fusions but not town, but then not knowing the scum town split seems odd. I got to wondering if maybe he figured out Ircher wasn't ascetic and thought it would be an easy call out.

Noraa is a replacement, but ze likes to fake town slips as scum, and zir not knowing I was conftown seems like an easy slip.

I actually want to believe Ircher. Claiming ascetic was dumb, and that alone is deserving of elimination, but there is something about Enchant and Cat Scratch (recent revelation) I still trust less. I am wondering if Almost or Noraa are snowing me. Flea could go either way. Galron isnt giving me anything to town read.

Rad Rat is towning it up currently, and I feel obligated to shoulder some of my responsibility as confirmed.town with them to help come to the correct Elim today.

That's where I'm at, mentally. I feel as though my votes carry a tremendous amount of weight as conftown and that where I go, I will be bringing many other players with me.

[Toogeloo]

I think it almost quarantee that Toog survive next night, if 3 people vote me, and Cat Scratch target another one.

Based on my previous post, and your own reads, who would you want voting you?

[Toogeloo]

@Toog: My vote is still yours to use even if it means I self-vote (I obviously would rather not, but if you think it makes the game easier for you to solve I'll do it).

But I don't want people to do this. It's a lot of pressure to put on me to get it right, and it absolves you of any guilt for associative play.

I'd like you to at least take accountability by laying out reads and telling me who you'd be voting for if you were not holding your vote. I'd like a little more than just singular reads too.

Tell me your reads on slots you don't talk about regularly.

[Toogeloo]

Pretty sure scum me wouldn't know either. I guess it would depend but i dont think i'd know even if i were scum.

I'm sure your scum team would have told you...

[Toogeloo]

Rat, what's your read on Noraa (previously Nathan)?

[Toogeloo]

Thought your vote belonged to me, lol

[Toogeloo]

I don't hate the Flea vote. Faer play in general has inspired no solid read for me, unfortunately.

I'd like more stances from those remaining, and the votes might inspire Flea into a storm.

[Toogeloo]

I think Flea is town.

Any particular reason why?

[Toogeloo]

I think I want:

Noraa and CSF on Enchant for sure. I think Flea might as well vote there as well.

I think Ircher is the correct play due to their lie.

VOTE: Ircher
HEAL: Ircher

Mod asked that I use Heal tags as my second vote to differentiate them. Don't read too much into the tag.

[Toogeloo]

I don't think we are winning this game (town). There isn't enough activity to suggest so.

I'm defaulting onto Ircher solely for the lie, and was hoping to get more info before making that choice.

If I was to make a gut read, I'd probably vote Noraa here, but I don't have any confidence in any particular read in general.

[Toogeloo]

Which just goes back to my last post. I think in general activity has completely died, which made reading many slots difficult.

Almost has nearly erased his town read from Day 1. And you (Rad Rat) are like the only read I think is still town. Everyone else I am either suspicious of, had no read on to begin with, or lost my read on.

I mean it's good I'm in Vegas right now, cuz where I put my vote feels like a gamble.

[Toogeloo]

UNVOTE:

Ircher speeding through his Lim is encouraging.

[Toogeloo]

It's possible you were already hammered. I haven't checked. If that is the case, I think Enchant might also be suspect for an early vote.

Possibly Noraa and/or CSF if Ircher wanted to ensure scum members weren't on Enchant.

[Toogeloo]

Ircher was 5.

[Toogeloo]

9 players alive, right?

[Toogeloo]

Let's make sure CSF and Noraa are on Enchant first.

[Toogeloo]

I want you to vote Enchant, I said this and others said this.

[Toogeloo]

Herding cats.

I'm 1000% ready to Elim Noraa and have Ircher vote Enchant atp.

[Toogeloo]

Noraa gets eliminated tomorrow.

VOTE: Ircher

[Toogeloo]

You do what you think is best, Galron. Including shooting if Ircher is scum.

[Toogeloo]

Aaaaaaayyyyyyyy....

Good game. Apologies for being mostly bad at the game. I think Rad Rat played an amazing game though. Town MVP, for sure.

[Toogeloo]

Fwiw Ircher, I was actually town reading you more than scum reading you on the day of your flip, and I legit wanted Noraa elim'd that day because how open wolf they were being, but I think we just ran out of time and needed closure on your spot.

[Toogeloo]

I'd love to see the final fusion setup and how the mod put it all together. Curious to see what happened with the VIP of my pick, if it got thrown out or fused as the Bus driving action or something else. Where did the double vote come from, etc...