Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[iLord]

Post almost done.

About done up to page 4. Have a scumlist and townlist developed.

Sorry for delaying it yet again.

[Elmo]

Day 1, Vote Count #5 - Lynching

Skillet (4) <- Electra, eldarad, TDC, Crazy
Crazy (2) <- Skillit, sthar8
sthar8 <- Raging Rabbit
fuzzylightning <- Jahudo
eldarad <- iLord
Incognito <- springlullaby
springlullaby <- Incognito

Not voting: fuzzylightning.

Boost Count

Electra (6) <- eldarad, Raging Rabbit, TDC, springlullaby, Jahudo, fuzzylightning
springlullaby <- Jahudo
Incognito <- Skillit
eldarad <- TDC

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch/boost.

[Crazy]

I haven't given the game the attention it deserves.

I apologize and will try for a reread and some content tomorrow.

I don't have a habit of lurking through my games as either scum or town, so please forgive me in this case... and I'll try to have some stuff up soon.

[Incognito]

Elmo-mod:

You've got me voting for sthar8 and Raging Rabbit voting for springlullaby. RR and I should be switched. Thanks.

[springlullaby]

Glad to see you getting more involved now, springlullaby. I almost forgot you were even in this game. Addressing your points.

I do not like the passive-aggressiveness of this, I post when I have something to say, and posting a lot doesn't make you town the same way as posting less doesn't make you scum. What matters is the content. Agree/disagree?

I don't think I was being passive-aggressive at all. A tad sarcastic maybe but not passive-aggressive. I agree that post number has no correlation with whether or not someone is pro-town or pro-scum but that wasn't the point I was getting at. The point of my comment was more in reference to how the content that you

did

put forward before you decided to come forward against me wasn't all that impressive, and I was eagerly anticipating your real entrance to the game. In fact, before you came in with your "case" against me, I was actually tempted to switch my vote to you for lurking.

By making the above bolded comment, you seem to be implying that the little you put forward within that first post of yours before my comment was good content. Do you really think your own post 52 really amounted to much? You pretty much regurgitated what everyone else said about Electra without really delving into why you felt this way (I even asked you to go into this further here) and then you voted for TDC for the vaguest of reasons. If you feel like post 52 amounted to a good amount, I'd like you to explain why.

I did not intend to allude that my posts were good content or otherwise, but rather to imply that yours sucked despite you posting a lot.

As far as the quality of my posting goes I'll let others judge, but by that post I expressed the points I wanted to make at the time: my sentiment toward Electra, my view of skillet, and a vote on TDC.

Btw, to answer your question Incognito, I think Electra's post comes from town because I read her as town and think the odds for a scum gambit are low. What do

you

think of Electra?

I didn't know what to think of Electra's page 1 claim at first. If it had come from a raw Newbie, I might have checked him or her off as obvtown for it. However, Electra has been on this site for quite some time now, and while I agree that the odds of scum making a gambit like that are low, I think it's still plausible for scum to do it, especially experienced scum. I thought eldarad's rather astute observation that he made

at the bottom of this post

was probably the best reason put forward by anyone to believe Electra might just be town here. I didn't think the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do such a thing on page 1 was powerful enough a reason to check her off as obvtown like everyone else seemed to do, so I preferred to reserve my opinion of her until I saw more content come from her. So to answer your question, as of right now, I'm leaning pro-town on Electra not based on the assumption that scum probably wouldn't do what she did but more based on what eldarad mentioned and her additional contribution to the game.

I do not like this answer as I note here that you have to appeal to a reason provided by another person to form an opinion on Electra.

Not trying to get semantic but "appeal" is an interesting choice of words. I don't think I was appealing to anything. I read eldarad's thoughts about Electra's early claim, thought about it on my own, and decided to

agree

with what he had mentioned. And as far as I'm concerned, there's nothing wrong with thinking logically about something someone else has written and agreeing with it, especially when coupling those thoughts with additional in-thread evidence from the person you're analyzing and formulating your own thoughts about it. As I mentioned above, I didn't really like everyone else's reasons for suggesting that Electra was obvtown, and I was choosing to reserve judgment until she posted more, thereby allowing me to get a better read of her. I even mentioned in the above quote that you quoted that the other reason I thought Electra might be more likely pro-town as opposed to pro-scum was because of her additional contribution. Did you miss that part?

You'll have to explain what you are alluding at with your 'appeal is an interesting choice of words' because I do not see where you are getting at. As far as I am concerned, it is a direct translation of the french expression 'faire appel à', which is to say, you had to use another's argument to form your opinion of Electra. I think this is scummy because I know why I think Electra is town, and it has little to do with what eldarad said.

I didn't miss anything, and I'll note here that in your many words you are sidestepping the original point I made which was that your reluctance to express an opinion on Electra for so long is scummy IMO.

Do you think that it is a good point?

Um, yeah, this is such weighted bombast. I've been

trying

to hunt scum. I didn't like the initial route the discussion took since it seemed to focus purely on the game mechanics which seems more theoretical to me. I think it's

extremely

easy for scum to hide in that type of discussion since it focuses more on information rather than analysis and leaves people reading completely neutral. I prefer asking questions directly to people and engaging in conversation by analyzing posts and eventually formulating gut reads. In my opinion, theory discussion is very unlikely to reveal much about a person's alignment, so the sooner we could move away from it, the better.

You are saying here that you prefer reserving judment before commiting to anything, well let me tell you that I think 8 out of 10 persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

What do you think?

Where did I say anything about reserving judgment in that quote you posted? I was talking about scum hunting and how I felt a large portion of the conversation early on was purely theoretical, which allows for easy scum hiding and how I wanted to move away from exactly that type of discussion ASAP. I specifically mentioned that theory discussion states very little about a person's alignment and how I'd rather engage in conversation with people to figure out where they're coming from.

And who are you, the Neils Bohr of Mafia or something? Have you been running statistical analysis to come forward with these numbers, or are you just pulling them out of your ass to help add even more weighted bombast to an already weak case? Have you considered that it's usually a good idea to reserve judgment on people because it's, oh, I don't know, a bad thing when you find yourself running up on someone who ends up being innocent? Is it abnormal for someone to not know who exactly is scum on page fucking 4 of the thread and who is instead choosing to use this early time to try and figure people out?

1. This is a misshaps on quoting, the point I made there address you expressively saying that you wanted to reserve judment on Electra in your prior paragraph.

2. Are you kidding me? Were did I ever suggest that my numbers were statistical? Look at how I formulated that and come again, I expressly wrote 'I think'. Those numbers are rough estimate based on my experience, and it means to convey that I think the vast majority of people who like to 'reserve judgment' are scum. Are you deliberately misrepresenting me here?

3. You are again entirely sidestepping the issue, I'll ask you again: I think the vast majority of persons who prefer to reserve judment are scum because 1)it is hader for them to form an opinion in the first place2)they want to keep all options open the longer possible, especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case. What do you think?

4. Wtf with the 'it's bad to run up on someone who ends up being innocent'. a) Are you suggesting that you won't make cases because of the off-risk that the people may be innocent? Well, welcome to being town, from my perspective there is always a possibility of you being innocent but I'm still making a case against you because : b) Cases don't make themselves, and in absense of cases, there is no possibility of determining people's alignment.

And yes, you are requited to express suspicions on page fucking 4, it is the fucking point of the game. What would you rather have? 4 other pages of inane blatter about mohinder suresh and 'pressure votes' on people who answer question for others?

I think this paragraph is full of bullshit, it looks good on paper for presenting vaguely himself as a steady and 'réflechi' character, but in reality it is a fucking fail inadequate justification for his passive play. I may have accepted the passive outlook on the game from someone less experienced who may have anxiety about being wrong, but from someone who has been on the site for one year it is unacceptable and it screams scum to me.

Eh? All of my questions have been very relevant to the game, and I certainly wouldn't classify them as "'soft' questions" either. Just because I don't immediately reveal my insights from the answers I get doesn't mean that I haven't formulated any opinions on them. When I'm ready to make a case against someone who I think is scum, I'll do so but certainly not this early in the game. Trust me, when I have a scum read on someone I'll make my opinion on the person blatantly obvious. Right now, this is purely the information-gathering stage for me. I've seen certain things from people that make me lean slightly town on them or slightly scum but not enough to come to a definitive answer with respect to their alignments.

Does the post you linked have a relevance to the present game at all?

As for your 'info-gathering stage' see above.

I posted that link because I

think

one of the points of your "case" against me focused on how I didn't immediately reveal my own thoughts with respect to the answers I received to my own questions and how you supposedly perceived this as scummy because I wasn't revealing my own insight with respect to my position on the other players' alignments. I was using that link to show you that when I'm ready to make my thoughts clear on why I think a particular person is scum, I'll do it in typical Incog-fashion by posting a well-elaborated, thoughtful case against said person. I haven't garnered enough information from this game yet to do so though obviously.

You are not explaining how your link have any relevance to the game at hand. What is the relevance behind saying, 'I'll make a case when I'm ready, look at the good case I made in that other game!' ?

And in respect to that game you linked and in which you were town, I notice with great interest that you were a lot less full of bullshit question, and much more confrontational and generous with your opinion starting day 1.

2. Surely if you had wanted to see if there were any underlying reason to her bringing forth the meta, the easiest way to do it would have been to verify her say by meta-ing her? Because if she is scum, wouldn't you expect her to lie?

In response to your first question: Um, no? How could I possibly determine if there were any underlying reasons for her citing meta in this particular game for two people in particular by... actually going forth and meta-ing her? Are you suggesting that people's alignments from previous games carry over or something?

In response to your second question: Yes, you would expect scum to lie about things, but by asking questions to people you can pick up on inconsistencies, check back on things to see if they jibe with what said person is saying, and determine if the person is being sincere or not. How exactly do you expect to find scum if you don't ask people questions? Do we twiddle our thumbs and hope that the scum come forward saying "HI I'M SCUM! LYNCH ME!"

And do you even realize how little sense you're making right now? You've adamantly stated that you think I'm scum, but yet, (DEEP BREATH), you're asking ME of all people questions! OMG! IMAGINE THAT! Aren't you afraid that I'm lying right now?

This paragraph is bullshit too, and it twists the point I made to make it look ridiculous.

I never said that you were wrong in asking people questions, I called your questions bullshit.

To quote, these are the questions I called BS on:

@Electra:

Are sthar8 and Skillit the only two people in this game who you have metas on?

Have all of your previous games been modded by mods who send PM's out when the game begins?

The difference between your bullshit questions and my questioning is that your question are simple yes/no questions. All you had to do to find the anwers to them was to meta Electra and skillit to find out the answer yourself if you were really interested. Yet you choose to ask them, so I ask you, don't you expect scum to lie?

This was a more minor personal question for me that probably nobody else in the world would use to try and figure out someone's alignment, but I sometimes rely on little questions like this to formulate reads.

Scum can talk during pre-game, correct? Therefore his reference to not receiving a PM to know when the game had started could have been seen as weakly pro-town since, if he was scum, he and his scum buddies might have been going back and forth a bit in conversation before game and might have nudged one another about the game's opening. I wanted to see if his comment was sincere. Obviously I wouldn't base my read of fuzzylightning completely off of this, but I thought it was a small avenue worth probing a bit.

I don't see the connection between the question you asked and the answer you provided.

How can you determine if his comment was sincere by asking him about previous games? Again, if he is scum, don't you expect him to lie? And what is the connection between him possibly talking back and forth as scum before the gamestart and the question you asked?

springlullaby, how could he possibly know the intention of my question to be able to know whether or not to lie about his answer when I didn't even specifically mention why I asked him about it until you questioned me about my own question's intent? If you yourself have expressed this inability to understand the true point of my own question, do you think

he

would have been able to understand my reason for asking and would know which answer he should give as a hypothetical scum to deceive me? And again, you seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that you are completely contradicting your own points by repeatedly asking me questions when, if your suspicion of me is truly genuine, you probably think I would lie about my answers since you think I'm scum.

As for the connection between gamestart and the question I asked, think harder about that one and maybe it'll come to you.

Huh, you use a lot of words, but I see no answers to my questions. I'm sorry you'll have to spell it out to me because you see, I'm dumb.

I can accept your reason to want to pressure sthar, but I think your behavior is not very offensive at all and is in contradiction with your stated intentions which is to pressure him.

Really? Why's that? I think I've been aggressively trying to scum hunt so far actually.

That is not my impression, and you are answering beside the point. You say that your vote on sthar was a pressure vote:
1. I don't think the post in which you voted for him was very aggresive at all.
2. You defend him in the directly following post you made.

So yes, I see no aggressivness here.

Cute. Very cute.

What is the meaning of this? Do I detect dismissal?

Superfluous questions receive ridiculous answers from me. Your question was a superfluous question.

Some of your points seem like a bit of a stretch to me, which is a bit bothersome. I'll try and take it as a slight pro-town sign that you've called me of all people out on certain things when I've pretty much had absolutely nothing directed at me and have been finding myself trying to create my own content to get involved in. But yeah, there ya go.

Why 'try and take it'? I'm not asking you for any favor. If you think some of my point are stretching, please indicates which and why.

I did. I specifically referred to one of your points as "weighted bombast", I specifically mentioned that I am scum hunting and asking relevant questions rather than "asking 'soft' questions that are irrelevant to the game". If that's not pointing out that your points are a bit of a stretch, then I don't know what is.

And I'm trying to take it as a positive sign because I know that my immediate impression from your attack on me is that it's slightly scummy for stretching the truth the way you have. Instead of immediately jumping to conclusions about your alignment, I'll continue trying to engage in conversation with you to see if you genuinely believe the points you're raising against me or if they're merely contrived and created to paint me in a bad light. Usually when someone makes a case against me, I can sometimes see where the person is coming from and why the person might think something I mentioned gave them a bad vibe. But with you, I really can't see that, and I'm becoming more and more curious about what your alignment really could be.

Let me tell you that I am 100% serious in all the accusation I made, and that I think they are good points too. And I certainly don't think you have been aggressive at all. You thinking otherwise make you look more scummy to me.

[springlullaby]

I may be wrong on this but my leaning is that Skillit's 'odd post' wasn't an attack - see him mentioning the joke at the end of the post; this is a judment call, mine.

If it was just your judgement, how can you call other people scummy for having a different judgement?

I didn't see enough to find skillit scumy, hence opinions diverging from mine is potentially scummy, although not definitively scummy.

[springlullaby]

I made only 3 posts so far, if you can't bother to read them, don't count on me to babysit you by repeating myself. If you think that my point doesn't diverge from Skillit's, you point out how it is the case.

In your second post you certainly appear to believe that you are agreeing with Skillit. In your third post, you retract that agreement. Since you hadn't added any content in between, the change must have been in your thought process - that had not been posted in-thread.
Either Skillit made a good point, or he didn't. Can you clarify your opinion on that please?

This is my view of skillit in the second post I made:

What skillet said seems superficial but on second thought I think it makes a good point, it's good to keep in mind that mafia may have abilities that are independent from boost to avoid reasonings based on wrong basis - ie: "X can't be responsible of action XXXX because X hasn't been boosted".

Upon further reexamination of skillit, I noticed that it wasn't exactly what skillit was saying and said so in my third post.

[springlullaby]

[quote="Incognito"]
While I'd like to keep the pressure on sthar8 a bit longer as I still feel like he could be contributing a bit more (yes, yes I know he's mentioned that he's sick), I really do find myself most troubled with springlullaby's attack against me and am having a hard time believing it could be coming from town. I've been attacked before in past games, and I feel like I can usually understand what the person who's attacking me for has a problem with and can usually tell when an attack against me is a bit misguided. I've reread the thread a number of times and did a focused read on myself to see if I can genuinely find myself agreeing with the points springlullaby raised against me, and I just can't. I felt like a lot of the points she raised against me were very strongly exaggerated. Examples include the following:

Lol, is that a 100 words paragraph to announce a vote against me? Do you fear looking OMGUS-y. See my last post addressing you. I just plain dislike the obsequiousness of this paragraph. For the rest see my last post addressing you.

[TDC]

iLord is a distant third, due to a mechanics issue

A what?

[sthar8]

A what?

Something he said made me think that he might not have the same kind of role pm that I got. Since mine is town, he could be scum. Very,

very

weak indicator, and as I said, I'm not going to do anything about it until we've got some more content from him.

[Jahudo]

In his first substantial post, Crazy notes his own inactivity and blames it on a lack of interest in the game so far, which is a weak indicator of scum in my experience so far...

He continues on to express suspicion of four other players, without providing any reasoning on two of them...

He then encourages us not to worry about boosting scum, expresses unsupported suspicions of two apparently unconnected players, and buddies up to eldarad before signing off.

This sound like a very serious list of tells. When Crazy votes for skillit, he mentions skillit's loaded question to Electra then skillit's claim that he didn't accuse her. Skillit's specific words were "imply any slant either way". Is a page 1 loaded question going to look serious and imply slant if you don't have a read on them? Does the initial accusation fail if it looks sarcastic joking to anyone?

I don't find anything odd about the timing of the vote since Crazy was supposedly away and got prodded. I also don't think he just jumped on the largest wagon because I don't see him trying to push it without anything new to show for it. Maybe that's indicative of something else, though.

I kinda agree that sthar8's theory on the setup could more likely come from a non-vanilla but as far as an alignment I don't know and don't care because that never manifested. I don't know if Crazy could turn it into a only scum possibility.

I think it's okay to suspect people like he did for TDC and RR, by not saying anything just yet. To me, it seems he's not as serious because it's not outlined. But using it as a preemption back by other people is another thing.

2. Are you kidding me? Were did I ever suggest that my numbers were statistical? Look at how I formulated that and come again, I expressly wrote 'I think'. Those numbers are rough estimate based on my experience, and it means to convey that I think the vast majority of people who like to 'reserve judgment' are scum. Are you deliberately misrepresenting me here?
...
they want to keep all options open the longer possible,

especially if they do not indicate their initail read at all, which is your case.

I must've missed the part I bolded because now I understand the rationale for this reserving judgment accusation. And yes, "I think" makes it sound more opinionated than scientifically proven hypothesis, but it was the second paragraph that explains the 8 out of 10 argument for me.

I'm getting more of a town read from spring in post 129, but have a few comments/questions on what she said that I'll reserve until after incog comes back and releases his next response novel. Please let it be in paperback.

unvote

, I need to come up with scummy and towny lists.

[eldarad]

i did this because i was specifically asked to do so. Incog was saying that my making a joke about Electra being like Mohinder i was immediately accepting something that i wasn't and i had to explain why it didn't mean what he was saying it did. and reading it, does it really look like an attack to you? really? i think its pretty clear that i wasnt being aggressive towards Electra at all. i was prolly too joke-y with her, but it was honestly just joke-y ness.

I got that you were being light-hearted. I never seriously thought that you were trying to start a bandwagon on Electra that would wrap up Day 1 inside two pages.
But I do feel that your "jokey" comment was a (weak) expression of suspicion and was backed up by the 'odd' theory that I still believe to be reaching.
By far the biggest reason for my vote was the retrospective reasoning that detailed a rationale for your vote that you hadn't actually thought of when you placed the vote in the first place.

But at the same time there is almost certainly at least one scum on my wagon.

I do agree with this, actually.

Skillet (5) <- Electra, sthar8, eldarad, TDC, Crazy

If I had to pluck a name out of the air as to which of those 5 were scum, I'd pick TDC. Based on an early gut read, nothing more. Although I do think you have a good point about s8's complete failure to acknowledge the Skillit wagon.

Skillit, do you have any thoughts on who is looking scummy so far? Why are you still voting for Crazy?

I'd still like an answer to this please. I note your comments on s8 and other people on your wagon. But are there other players pinging your scumdar? Is Crazy still the best place for your vote?

I'm getting more of a town read from spring in post 129, but have a few comments/questions on what she said that I'll reserve until after incog comes back and releases his next response novel. Please let it be in paperback

See, I didn't like post 129. But I agree that withholding comment until Incog can respond is a good idea.

[Incognito]

I'm gonna try to be brief here. This is getting ridiculous.

• Re: my posts sucked. I really don't see what's been so sucky about my posts. I'll note here that you're not even using rational analysis here to explain why it is they've been sucky. You've now pretty much resorted to personal insults which still say absolutely nothing and are actually quite scummy. Thanks for making me feel great about my vote on you.
  
  
• Re: "appealing" to someone else's opinion about Electra. How many times do I need to rehash this point?
  I didn't have to decide immediately about my opinion on her.
  I fail to see how this is scummy. And when I did eventually voice my opinion about her, I stated in as much detail as I could as to why I felt that way. I thought eldarad pointed something out about Electra's role claim that made sense, and I simply agreed with it. I read through Electra's posts on my own following her claim and began to like her contribution to the game. I was not going to check her off as town like everyone else did just because of a ridiculous assumption of "scum are unlikely to make a gambit like that on page 1". I've already explained why I was unwilling to accept that as a valid enough reason to feel like she's town because of it.
  
  
• Re: your 8 out of 10 thing. If the point that you were trying to make was that the majority of people who choose to reserve judgment about someone are scum like you claim, then that's all you had to say. I can't see myself believing that though. There must have been a significance to you referencing those numbers, and I think you pulled those numbers out the way you did to try and strengthen your already flimsy case against me. Either way, I'd like you to show me specific examples from your supposedly vast experience where you've seen scum reserve judgment about people more often than town. Gogogo!
  
  As to what I think? I obviously think you're incorrect. You might have a point here if I was just checking in every once in awhile with a one sentence or one word post here and there and not contributing anything at all and then out of nowhere, I jumped in and started attacking someone after I got a feel for how the game was going. But I haven't done that. I've been contributing where appropriate, and my suspicions have followed along with my thought process. For example, I questioned Skillit about a bunch of his early posts because I noticed a number of inconsistencies in what he was saying but never voted for him because I, for the most part, bought his explanation. Do I need to outright say this and make it completely public? No, I don't think I do. There are plenty of pro-town reasons to withhold information that, you guessed it, I won't go into.
  
  
• In point number 4, deliberate or not, you're strawmanning me. I never said that I won't make cases against people because I'm afraid I'll be wrong and ring up a townie. In fact, I can cite numerous examples from my experience where I've made large cases against people, gotten them lynched, and ended up being quite wrong. I was saying that during early game, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a pro-town player reserving judgment about a player until said pro-town player receives enough information to feel comfortable with his or her suspicions. In fact, reserving judgment and not jumping to conclusions is more likely to leave a pro-town player with a more satisfying result. I can even make an argument that many scum players oftentimes
  won't
  reserve judgment about players because they don't want to give these players the benefit of the doubt and want to get those players lynched ASAP. Do you agree with this or not?
  
  
• Re: bullshit questions. I've already explained the significance of those questions. I still stand by them being game-related and not bullshit. Simple as that. And you still ask the question of "don't you expect scum to lie?" but still seem completely oblivious to your own contradiction.
  
  
• Re: vote on sthar8. I didn't defend him.
  
  
• Reducing my case against you to OMGUS. I figured you'd end up doing that.

Still cool with my vote.

[iLord]

Okay, here’s my notes. If you want more me to quote a post, specify a statement, or don’t understand a point, just say so and I’ll explain – my notes are kind of messy. My reads are generally preceded by what generated that feeling, but if you don’t understand why I suspect or think a player is town, be sure to ask. General notes on the bottom.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Electra:

Comes out with a very well reasoned post and has good reasons for her boost. As I’ve stated before, one good reason is that it would be it would be tricky gambit for scum to pull with little information. I didn’t initially see it as this, but my opinions changed with more explanation and scrutiny. Reading town. Thinks sthar8 is town. Minorly suspicious of Crazy

skillit:

Starts off with a joke about how Electra is desperate for power. Prods Electra for leaving out a category. Not much to say – a lot for necessary defense.

TDC:

Cautious of Electra and doesn’t want MC. Later is persuaded differently about Electra, and votes skillit. Thinks skillit is backpedaling.

sthar8:

Starts off with an interesting proposition to the town. Seems very hesitant of his idea, but his cautious language does not match with the bold scum gambit this could be. Reading town. Answers for other people, but reading as overeager. Agree with a lot of what he says. Can see his push on Crazy, but don’t agree with it.

eldarad:

Correct in that MC is too predictable for mod to overlook. Attacks skillit for his prod. Continues to push skillit, which is weird. Everything else logical. Gut reads TDC as scum. Reading very neutral.

Incognito:

Prods skillit for his Heroes joke – weak in my opinion. Continues to prod skillit, but also votes sthar8 for answering for other people. Not really as much of a scumtell as overeager behavior that happens to be antitown. Unsatisfactory answer of why he didn’t comment on Electra earlier – says that he was unsure – speculating about he scumminess of an action in thread is undeniably more protown then doing it alone. Good point about prodding fuzzylightning to figure out if he actually knew the game was started. Very good answer to reasoning behind sthar8 attack. Weak conclusion to springlullaby case. To Incognito’s question about why he didn’t talk about Electra, I ask: “What harm would it do to the town to speculate in thread?” Starting to lean scum on springlullaby. Defense was good except for two points still. Leaning slightly scum, mostly due to gut. Votes springlullaby – scumdar bings. Another example of destroying the weak points. Second suspect. Apologize can easily mean politeness. Funny thing, on this site, if someone’s polite, people immediately suspect that he is kissing up. ! Incognito, you can change your opinion. You can state your initial opinions in thread, and then change them as you gather more information.

springlullaby:

Has a very vague post about Electra and TDC. I actually agree with what he’s saying. Attacks Incognito for not commenting on Electra – good point. Sticks with reading skillit as town. Continues to push case. A few good points, but mostly Incognito defended well. Poor misrep on Incognito about reserving judgment. springlullaby is too emotionally invested into this game. Would make a better case against Incognito if he dropped some of the weak points.

RagingRabbit:

Votes sthar8 for his explanation that he didn’t notice what he was doing. Weak, reading like he’s trying to jump on an easy wagon. Reading scummy. Especially since scum would have no reason to answer for other people, unless RR thinks the people sthar08 answered for are scum. Raging Rabbit continues to construe answering other’s questions as a scum tell. Reading pretty scummy. Still pushes… And Still pushes. Probably top suspect right now. Still pushing. And still pushes. Definite don’t like this push. Reading very scummy.

fuzzylightning:

Late coming, but with a very logical post, with some unnecessary speculation. Good analysis on the skillit attack. Due to Incognito’s point, reading town. Thinks Incognito defended well.

Crazy:

Like me, a little behind in the game. Votes skillit.

Jahudo:

Jahudo’s at the end of my list even thought he posted early because he’s just remained below the radar. Then, his post asking me why this game was hard to grasp for me caught my eye. I would like him to explain why he asked that question. My answer is that I skimmed some of the earlier posts and as a result couldn’t understand the latter ones. Jahudo’s replies to the Incognito/springlullaby thing was very unsatisfactory, looks like he’s picking random arguments to argue on. Reading scummy. Jahudo needs more scumhunting and less general commenting.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes:

I really think that the whole boost/lynch disucssion and the early skillit wagons were based on misunderstandings and several nulltell game theory opinions.

Too much focus on Springlullaby’s statistic. Town does that all the time, not indicative of scum.

Incognito vs. Springlullaby: Incognito defended well – two points (Why not comment on Electra and conclusion about springlullaby’s alignment) were valid. Overall reading springlullaby as a townie pushing too many weak points and Incognito as scum defending well and making a case look bad by blowing the weak points out of the water.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Conclusion:

Vote: RagingRabbit

Scumlist:

TOWN

. Electra
. sthar8
. fuzzylightning
. springlullaby
. eldarad
. Crazy
. skillit
. TDC
. Jahudo
. Incognito
. RagingRabbit

SCUM

[Incognito]

What harm would it do to the town to speculate in thread

[about Electra]

?

Note:

I've added supplementary text in green to the above quote.

Probably no harm at all but to you I ask an opposite question. What harm would it do to the town to

not

speculate in thread when I still eventually shared my thoughts anyway? Is it wrong to store Electra's first post in your own mind as a null tell and to wait to see more coming from her to come to a final decision about her page 1 claim especially when practically everyone else was talking about her anyway? What's wrong with trying to expand the conversation away onto other things that are not Electra when the Electra stuff was already being covered by others?

Another thing:

fuzzylightning:

Late coming, but with a very logical post, with some unnecessary speculation. Good analysis on the skillit attack. Due to Incognito’s point, reading town. Thinks Incognito defended well.

You've used a question and point that I raised with respect to fuzzylightning to arrive at the conclusion that he's likely town but yet you've still got me second from the bottom on your towniest to scummiest list? How exactly does that work?

Also please explain why my vote on springlullaby "binged" your scumdar. I also don't understand the portion about politeness either and why you think practically all of the points springlullaby has raised against me are weak but yet you still read her as town and me as scum who's defended himself well.

You also seem to imply that there are some strong points out there against me that springlullaby could use against me to suggest that I'm scum but in your paragraph about me you say that you're leaning scum on me "due to gut". What exactly do you think are the strong points then?

[Jahudo]

Then, his post asking me why this game was hard to grasp for me caught my eye. I would like him to explain why he asked that question. My answer is that I skimmed some of the earlier posts and as a result couldn’t understand the latter ones.

I saw that you posted three times to say you were lost and needed to re-read. Would that mean you've read the thread at least 4 times? I wanted to know if there was something that didn't look right and if you've caught something we've mostly missed.

Jahudo’s replies to the Incognito/springlullaby thing was very unsatisfactory, looks like he’s picking random arguments to argue on.

I'm trying not to get in the way too much because they need to answer the parts that are directed to them. I feel that some people are not looking at this exchange enough, or at least we don't know if they are or not. But we are getting a good look at both of them and I think they could both be town.

Electra and skillit need to post more.

[Electra]

Sorry, I've been getting into the habit of just reading and waiting to make giant posts.

I feel like suspicions are being thrown around a lot, and there's no general consensus anywhere in terms of what is scummy. I will reread and make a giant post about my opinions of scumminess levels.

[iLord]

ASD

Probably no harm at all but to you I ask an opposite question. What harm would it do to the town to not speculate in thread when I still eventually shared my thoughts anyway? Is it wrong to store Electra's first post in your own mind as a null tell and to wait to see more coming from her to come to a final decision about her page 1 claim especially when practically everyone else was talking about her anyway? What's wrong with trying to expand the conversation away onto other things that are not Electra when the Electra stuff was already being covered by others?

The benefit is that we know what your stated opinions are at a certain point of time and information. This information would be valuable to analyze when you claim, for example.

You've used a question and point that I raised with respect to fuzzylightning to arrive at the conclusion that he's likely town but yet you've still got me second from the bottom on your towniest to scummiest list? How exactly does that work?

That particular action was protown and makes sense. The scummy vibes I'm getting from your argument with springlullaby is much stronger. Just because I think your scum doesn't mean I can't acknowledge good points that you make. Scum and make good, protown points to blend in as town.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Also please explain why my vote on springlullaby "binged" your scumdar. I also don't understand the portion about politeness either and why you think practically all of the points springlullaby has raised against me are weak but yet you still read her as town and me as scum who's defended himself well.

The excessive amount of doubt you put up behind the springlullaby vote and how you sort of built up to it read really scummy. The doubtful reasoning about how you are attacking him because you can't see his reasoning is a weak scummy OMGUS. Townies are very often mistaken in their cases. Here's the posts in question:

And I'm trying to take it as a positive sign because I know that my immediate impression from your attack on me is that it's slightly scummy for stretching the truth the way you have. Instead of immediately jumping to conclusions about your alignment, I'll continue trying to engage in conversation with you to see if you genuinely believe the points you're raising against me or if they're merely contrived and created to paint me in a bad light. Usually when someone makes a case against me, I can sometimes see where the person is coming from and why the person might think something I mentioned gave them a bad vibe.

But with you, I really can't see that, and I'm becoming more and more curious about what your alignment really could be.

While I'd like to keep the pressure on sthar8 a bit longer as I still feel like he could be contributing a bit more (yes, yes I know he's mentioned that he's sick), I really do find myself most troubled with springlullaby's attack against me and am having a hard time believing it could be coming from town. I've been attacked before in past games, and I feel like I can usually understand what the person who's attacking me for has a problem with and can usually tell when an attack against me is a bit misguided. I've reread the thread a number of times and did a focused read on myself to see if I can genuinely find myself agreeing with the points springlullaby raised against me, and I just can't. I felt like a lot of the points she raised against me were very strongly exaggerated. Examples include the following:

----------------------------------------------------------------

You also seem to imply that there are some strong points out there against me that springlullaby could use against me to suggest that I'm scum but in your paragraph about me you say that you're leaning scum on me "due to gut". What exactly do you think are the strong points then?

Not commenting on Electra and dressing up your vote.

I'm trying not to get in the way too much because they need to answer the parts that are directed to them. I feel that some people are not looking at this exchange enough, or at least we don't know if they are or not. But we are getting a good look at both of them and I think they could both be town.

Then why comment on it at all?

[Elmo]

Skillit has been prodded.

[Electra]

This post is not as long as I expected. I think the players in this game as a whole are more able to defend themselves than players usually are in games, and I’m having a hard time finding particular flaws in defenses or attacks – I feel like a lot of the exchanges (the main ones I think are sthar/RR, springlullaby/incognito, and a few people/skillet) could go either way.

I am not really sure about the springlullaby/Incognito exchange from a few pages back, I feel like it’s way too intense for so early in the game- as in, there’s not likely to be that much to go on, so the level of argument seems unnecessarily high. I think that Incognito’s “normally I understand where attacks are coming from” response seems unnatural. Most of the time when I’m attacked, I have no idea why they find whatever I’m doing scummy. :p I also agree with what sthar said about his response of it being protown for springlullaby to pressure him- that certainly is something that scum does.

In terms of responses to it, I find fuzzylightning’s response kind of weird. He did a long analysis of it, and then ended with a FoS on springlullaby as a conclusion. How did you get to that point from the confusion you had a few posts ago? What was different about your read the first time and then the second?

unvote

Right now my rankings of scumminess is something like…

Sthar, eldarad, less scummy.
Crazy, Incognito, scummyish.
Everyone else is swimming in the middle.

The reasons for Incognito I explained above. The reasons for Crazy are the obvious ones- very inactive in this game, and does very textbook scummy things.

I will try to form more opinions on other people in the thread by rereading, but it’s taking me time to get to know you. :p

[iLord]

Electra, about how many games have you played?

[Incognito]

iLord, you missed a question:

What's wrong with trying to expand the conversation away onto other things that are not Electra when the Electra stuff was already being covered by others?

That particular action was protown and makes sense. The scummy vibes I'm getting from your argument with springlullaby is much stronger. Just because I think your scum doesn't mean I can't acknowledge good points that you make. Scum and make good, protown points to blend in as town.

That wasn't an action though. You're basing an entire

read

of a person off of the point that someone who you think might be scum brought up. That doesn't make any sense to me.

The benefit is that we know what your stated opinions are at a certain point of time and information.

The excessive amount of doubt you put up behind the springlullaby vote and how you sort of built up to it read really scummy.

I don't think this makes much sense either. One of your major points against me is how I didn't immediately share my thoughts about Electra's page 1 stuff. Your other major point essentially boils down to me

sharing

my thoughts about another player's attack against me in temporal order. So if I don't share my thoughts about someone immediately it's scummy and if I do share my thoughts about someone as those thoughts progress it's scummy too? You can't have it both ways.

---

@Electra:

I do agree with you that the exchange seems a bit too intense for early game, though I've seen a lot of exchanges that have been intense early on also (Pick Your Poison 2's Ether/Bookitty exchange comes to mind). That's pretty much the point that I was trying to get at when I said that normally I can understand the reasons for why someone is attacking me the way they are and why this attack against me just strikes me as so off. On page 4, I doubt there would be enough content within the thread to build such a full-on case against another person unless the person practically admitted to being scum but yet springlullaby has been pushing for my lynch based on very, very weak points that aren't even true.

I also disagree with both you and sthar8's mentioning that springlullaby's attack comes across as pro-town for pressuring me the way she has. The only time I've had a full-on attack against me this early in a game for just about the same level of ridiculous reasons as this one was in Pick Your Poison 3 and that was from Sarcastro who was scum. I think what matters is the context. Do you think springlullaby's points were valid? Did you think they were strong enough for her to actually be pushing for my lynch? I don't think this is just simple pressure coming from her like you're making it out to be.

And yeah, more people really need to start posting.

[Electra]

Electra, about how many games have you played?

A lot, but I had a three or so year hiatus and only just came back to the site. Things have certainly changed. :p

@ Incognito - I never said I think springlullaby is protown for pressuring you. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, you're the one who said this...

[Incognito]

Oh BLAH. I misread what you said. Nevermind then. :S

About that: Yeah, I do think it's mildly pro-town to maybe shift some attention onto someone who did not have the spotlight put on him or her. Those feelings changed when I saw the points that she was actually trying to use to push for my lynch and how incorrect they were. That's what I was trying to get at.

[iLord]

What's wrong with trying to expand the conversation away onto other things that are not Electra when the Electra stuff was already being covered by others?

Because we want to have your opinion on record - we don't need you to force the conversation away - that'll happen on its own.

We also don't need you using this as an excuse.

That wasn't an action though. You're basing an entire read of a person off of the point that someone who you think might be scum brought up. That doesn't make any sense to me.

It makes sense to me, so I don't see why I shouldn't use it. On the flipside, are you saying that if you make a good point, you're automatically town?

I don't think this makes much sense either. One of your major points against me is how I didn't immediately share my thoughts about Electra's page 1 stuff. Your other major point essentially boils down to me sharing my thoughts about another player's attack against me in temporal order. So if I don't share my thoughts about someone immediately it's scummy and if I do share my thoughts about someone as those thoughts progress it's scummy too? You can't have it both ways.

In fact, these points actually fortify each other. You didn't comment on Electra, so we have no idea how scummy or townie your reactions could've been. But now that you do state town how you think about stuff as it happens, we can actually read you.

And you're reading like scum.

A lot, but I had a three or so year hiatus and only just came back to the site. Things have certainly changed. :p

Weird, your last post had a lot of newb tells. Don't know what to make of it now.