Mini Normal 2267 | Music Hits of 2010-2014 | GAME OVER

[Andresvmb]

Like if you want to argue against JacksonVirgo by saying that your push against Scorpious was negative EV and you wouldn’t do that as Scum (and I agree), certainly you should apply some of that same logic to me then. Because it’s not like I was defending Scorpious early in the day and I did come out pretty strongly against them even before they returned the favor.

right but then you swerved away from it and also like i said the interactions at beginning of day two felt plus partner to me,

i do definitely need to reread once again and see how i feel, but there have been things i noted regarding your slot

Nah I really shouldn’t be in the POE. I’m not going to insist too hard and it’s up to you but I’m not claiming and I don’t see myself as equivalent to anyone else you included in that group. And I think it’s a bit annoying because I was pushing Scorpious quite strongly D1 and you’re waving it away because I (correctly) argued Mailman was a dumb fake claim but was surprised at the implementation. Had I been around towards the end of D2, I think I would have been swayed by the argument that was put forth that not sending a message then to try and frame you, but keeping the possibility open to send a message later, was actually a reasonable conclusion. I also asked Scorpious to disclose the content of their message and their claim in the message that they hammered as a mistake was used against them. If that had been planned, I wouldn’t have them highlighted that piece as something suspicious - I would have built up the contents of the message. But whatever you do you.

[Andresvmb]

Like the JV hammer (after defending there like they did) and the position of STD’s vote for geraintm are quite revealing. I would eliminate both slots here and then really start thinking through what’s going on if we’re going astray. I don’t think I need to really consider geraintm as Scum here in the vast majority of circumstances, Enchant a few solid posts at the end of D2 that didn’t need to happen unless there really was some insistence to bus Scorpious (and why? Their AtE was succeeding in instilling doubt in my mind for example), and Nero Cain had a vote in there D1 which highlighted how Scorpious wasn’t reading that I’m not sure they make as a Partner.

[Andresvmb]

^Enchant had a few*

[angela]

Like if you want to argue against JacksonVirgo by saying that your push against Scorpious was negative EV and you wouldn’t do that as Scum (and I agree), certainly you should apply some of that same logic to me then. Because it’s not like I was defending Scorpious early in the day and I did come out pretty strongly against them even before they returned the favor.

right but then you swerved away from it and also like i said the interactions at beginning of day two felt plus partner to me,

i do definitely need to reread once again and see how i feel, but there have been things i noted regarding your slot

Nah I really shouldn’t be in the POE. I’m not going to insist too hard and it’s up to you but I’m not claiming and I don’t see myself as equivalent to anyone else you included in that group. And I think it’s a bit annoying because I was pushing Scorpious quite strongly D1 and you’re waving it away because I (correctly) argued Mailman was a dumb fake claim but was surprised at the implementation. Had I been around towards the end of D2, I think I would have been swayed by the argument that was put forth that not sending a message then to try and frame you, but keeping the possibility open to send a message later, was actually a reasonable conclusion. I also asked Scorpious to disclose the content of their message and their claim in the message that they hammered as a mistake was used against them. If that had been planned, I wouldn’t have them highlighted that piece as something suspicious - I would have built up the contents of the message. But whatever you do you.

poe is also larger than current number of remaining eliminations and i am not completely sure on those outside of it either but it felt like, partial claim felt more beneficial than full massclaim to me, which meant deciding where the line was but as with everything the more i think about it the more the middle section becomes very blurry

hmhmhm,

[Andresvmb]

Well I’m not claiming haha I don’t agree that we need to claim at this point and I think it’s somewhat disappointing that you think I should be in the POE but like I said I’m not SR’ing you. I just think it would make the game a bit easier if you can land on me Town.

[angela]

Like the JV hammer (after defending there like they did) and the position of STD’s vote for geraintm are quite revealing. I would eliminate both slots here and then really start thinking through what’s going on if we’re going astray. I don’t think I need to really consider geraintm as Scum here in the vast majority of circumstances, Enchant a few solid posts at the end of D2 that didn’t need to happen unless there really was some insistence to bus Scorpious (and why? Their AtE was succeeding in instilling doubt in my mind for example), and Nero Cain had a vote in there D1 which highlighted how Scorpious wasn’t reading that I’m not sure they make as a Partner.

i think we are currently viewing the game pretty similarly, i'm just working through the more extended worlds i guess, as we have lots of time and such

though i still think malcolmtucker has a lot of scum equity but i am not sure entirely what to make of jacksonvirgo's posts regarding malcolmtucker if more likely to come from partner or someone hoping town malcolmtucker will help them

[JacksonVirgo]

Yeah but then you’re ignoring my D1 completely and that doesn’t make sense to me. I was Scorpious’ main focus, and I was aggressive in my pursuit and landed back there almost towards the end of the day when I was trying to avoid a Not_Mafia execution. If you think them harping about my Town % was staged, you could make that argument, but I certainly am not going to let you just paper over all of that by looking at my D2 only.

i am not ignoring it is just that there is heavy weight on the otherside, it's not that i think you are most likely remaining mafia right now or anything, probably 5th or 6th most likely,

and kittytacky also suspected you and am giving weight to their considerations as well

KittyTacky said that JV should be executed if Scorpious flips Scum. That was their main consideration if I’m reading some of the posts at the end of D2 correctly. I also think STD looks quite poor after D1 and how all of that went down (Scorpious being the main focus, and the Scum needing an alternative, momentum was there to execute STD and it didn’t happen, which means that we need to think about that).

If ur saying their death has anything to do with what's happened regarding scorp, you are ignoring the fact that they were confirmed town.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not going to start quoting off of my own ISO but I do think you need to look at my earlier posts because I think it’s nonsense that I would be grouped with like JV or STD. Why am I shutting off geraintm at one point then instead of cheering that on the whole time as an alternative D2, before I ended up screwing up and going back on that? Like I can make mistakes and I have, but me going back on executing Scorpious D2 isn’t like worse than you blocking that execution D1, but you want JV to give you the full benefit of the doubt on that because you were possibly framed, but then don’t want to extend that to me when I very clearly was being pushed by Scorpious D1 in bad faith. So yeah I don’t get.

[angela]

Well I’m not claiming haha I don’t agree that we need to claim at this point and I think it’s somewhat disappointing that you think I should be in the POE but like I said I’m not SR’ing you. I just think it would make the game a bit easier if you can land on me Town.

i guess maybe i have not communicated how i am viewing the game very well, as i think you are pretty likely to be town but there have to be two mafia still right and i am not like, certain you are town, if that makes sense

though i still think the claim isn't really about need but rather it is more likely to have positive outcome rather than negative, and waiting doesn't seem so beneficial to me either

but if multiple of the players who would be claiming are refusing to claim it isn't a strategy that can really be employed

[JacksonVirgo]

I think it’s nonsense that I would be grouped with like JV or STD.

Didn't think I was that bad off that I was done like this lmfao

[angela]

I’m not going to start quoting off of my own ISO but I do think you need to look at my earlier posts because I think it’s nonsense that I would be grouped with like JV or STD. Why am I shutting off geraintm at one point then instead of cheering that on the whole time as an alternative D2, before I ended up screwing up and going back on that? Like I can make mistakes and I have, but me going back on executing Scorpious D2 isn’t like worse than you blocking that execution D1, but you want JV to give you the full benefit of the doubt on that because you were possibly framed, but then don’t want to extend that to me when I very clearly was being pushed by Scorpious D1 in bad faith. So yeah I don’t get.

a three person claim doesn't yield enough information though, it would have to be at least four to be beneficial as someone can potentially be eliminated from poe and such, and four remaining eliminations, but five makes more sense for this reason, thus a five person list,

i will look at your earlier posts though like i said, i am going to i promise,

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but then you’re ignoring my D1 completely and that doesn’t make sense to me. I was Scorpious’ main focus, and I was aggressive in my pursuit and landed back there almost towards the end of the day when I was trying to avoid a Not_Mafia execution. If you think them harping about my Town % was staged, you could make that argument, but I certainly am not going to let you just paper over all of that by looking at my D2 only.

i am not ignoring it is just that there is heavy weight on the otherside, it's not that i think you are most likely remaining mafia right now or anything, probably 5th or 6th most likely,

and kittytacky also suspected you and am giving weight to their considerations as well

KittyTacky said that JV should be executed if Scorpious flips Scum. That was their main consideration if I’m reading some of the posts at the end of D2 correctly. I also think STD looks quite poor after D1 and how all of that went down (Scorpious being the main focus, and the Scum needing an alternative, momentum was there to execute STD and it didn’t happen, which means that we need to think about that).

If ur saying their death has anything to do with what's happened regarding scorp, you are ignoring the fact that they were confirmed town.

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

[angela]

like i currently think all of jacksonvirgo and save the dragons and malcolmtucker are more likely than you, but suggesting only those three claim seems not as beneficial to me but maybe that doesn't make sense

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

[JacksonVirgo]

Not really reading no, just looking at whatever words my eyes gloss over to. I'm quite tired

[JacksonVirgo]

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

I wonder why

[Andresvmb]

Like the JV hammer (after defending there like they did) and the position of STD’s vote for geraintm are quite revealing. I would eliminate both slots here and then really start thinking through what’s going on if we’re going astray. I don’t think I need to really consider geraintm as Scum here in the vast majority of circumstances, Enchant a few solid posts at the end of D2 that didn’t need to happen unless there really was some insistence to bus Scorpious (and why? Their AtE was succeeding in instilling doubt in my mind for example), and Nero Cain had a vote in there D1 which highlighted how Scorpious wasn’t reading that I’m not sure they make as a Partner.

like i currently think all of jacksonvirgo and save the dragons and malcolmtucker are more likely than you, but suggesting only those three claim seems not as beneficial to me but maybe that doesn't make sense

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

Well, we can just rally votes and force a claim no? Like I think there’s some sense in that strategy. Openly asking for multiple players that potentially maybe are Scum in marginal situations isn’t helping the Town - it just gives the Scum some targets and more information they can use to fake claim this early. We shouldn’t give them that.

[angela]

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like if you'd prefer a full massclaim i am also pretty amenable to that

it just felt like the partial might be better to me,

[angela]

Well, we can just rally votes and force a claim no? Like I think there’s some sense in that strategy. Openly asking for multiple players that potentially maybe are Scum in marginal situations isn’t helping the Town - it just gives the Scum some targets and more information they can use to fake claim this early. We shouldn’t give them that.

one claim not going to necessarily give us enough information though,

i think it helps the town more than the scums as the scums having targets isn't too relevant as the scums already have potential targets,

but there is argument of like, a night action potentially still being relevant but, that doesn't seem super likely to me,

[angela]

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

I wonder why

i mean if you're going to claim town roleblocker you can do so now

[Andresvmb]

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like if you'd prefer a full massclaim i am also pretty amenable to that

it just felt like the partial might be better to me,

Okay but I was pushing Scorpious in a position when it was even less beneficial to the Scum than you.

If I want Town cred for bussing Scorpious, I don’t have to go back on that D2, ever. Maybe a bit like how Nero Cain has approached the slot at times. Regardless of what they had argued mechanically, I could have tried arguing against it to keep my distance but not push it too hard and look elsewhere. But look at my posts D1 and early D2. I was trying to get some finality to the whole situation, and I argued D2 that we should then just execute Scorpious (particularly after Kitty claimed) and that I would land there, despite what mechanically I had expected. I felt too much conviction behind geraintm’s posts and I was scared away from voting Scorpious (and they’re spewed Town at this point in my mind), but that was my only hang up. I don’t think I ever tried to build an anti-case, and even after the actual claim D1, I was insistent on it not having an impact on their alignment. I just don’t have to do that.

I’m making these arguments now because I really think we need to rally around a selection and I want more debate around STD, Malcolm and JV. I think that’s vastly more helpful than debating the potential for a mass claim, or whether I should be in the POE.

[angela]

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like we can think about the future and potential outcomes while still weighing other things for today more heavily, i guess is what i'm saying,

though i also get your reaction here, as i have often felt similarly in the past, so, yeah

[angela]

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like if you'd prefer a full massclaim i am also pretty amenable to that

it just felt like the partial might be better to me,

Okay but I was pushing Scorpious in a position when it was even less beneficial to the Scum than you.

If I want Town cred for bussing Scorpious, I don’t have to go back on that D2, ever. Maybe a bit like how Nero Cain has approached the slot at times. Regardless of what they had argued mechanically, I could have tried arguing against it to keep my distance but not push it too hard and look elsewhere. But look at my posts D1 and early D2. I was trying to get some finality to the whole situation, and I argued D2 that we should then just execute Scorpious (particularly after Kitty claimed) and that I would land there, despite what mechanically I had expected. I felt too much conviction behind geraintm’s posts and I was scared away from voting Scorpious (and they’re spewed Town at this point in my mind), but that was my only hang up. I don’t think I ever tried to build an anti-case, and even after the actual claim D1, I was insistent on it not having an impact on their alignment. I just don’t have to do that.

I’m making these arguments now because I really think we need to rally around a selection and I want more debate around STD, Malcolm and JV. I think that’s vastly more helpful than debating the potential for a mass claim, or whether I should be in the POE.

it kinda feels like you are saying “angela could you pretty please i am begging you to stay on task”

which yeah i can try,

and i was just also interacting with jacksonvirgo and would be attempting to interact with malcolmtucker if they were here

and i would like save the dragons to commit more than a vote to the game

though save the dragons probably third most likely to me of those three right now

[geraintm]

I don't think mass claim is the way forward, andni certainly don't think anders needs to.
Wish angela would focus their attention off anders, i have the pair of you 1st and second in my town pile- right now I have save the day at the top of my most suspicious list and i will, when I have time tomorrow, go back and loom at the votes on wagons now we ha e the extra info of scorpious being scum. Bed now though

[Rathe]

VOTE: save the dragons

[Rathe]

i dont think jacksonvirgo is mafia it would make more sense for him to bus scorpius not heavily defend him the way he did