Newbie 2093 | New Wave | Postgame

[catboi]

Vote Count 1.06

abdbla (3):

furtiveglance, CornPuffBuddha, BigTerp

CornPuffBuddha (2):

abdbla, TTTT

ItalianoVD (1):

Takemikazuchi02

Asphodelus (1):

Val89

Takemikazuchi02 (1):

ItalianoVD

TTTT (1):

Asphodelus

With 9 alive, it's 5 to eliminate.

Deadline for Day 1 is April 24 at 6:00 PM EST.

Deadline Timer:

(expired on 2022-04-24 18:00:00)

[ItalianoVD]

I'm comfortable with my vote on Italiano. Would like to see a second wagon to hopefully generate more and better discussion, but am not against getting Italiano back up to E-2 or even E-1 to see what might shake out.

Well you missed it. I was already at E1.

[ItalianoVD]

Big Terp, can you elaborate on 232 and 233.

Take was saying that TTTT's vote that took Aspho to E-2 was basically pointless because they were going to be V/LA for a few days and it wouldn't help to move the game along. Those post (232 233) showed several examples of Take doing, what I thought, was something TTTT was hoping to get out of a vote to move Aspho to E-2. A reaction. In fact, Take had several reactions to it. From that standpoint, if Aspho is scum Take is the partner.

Interesting take and something I actually had in the back of my mind but disregarded it because I figured it’d be obvious, like way too obvious.

Surely you’re not the only one to think this I assume. Anyone else have this thought, even if it was in passing?

[ItalianoVD]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

Fair enough, but that is not at all how you presented it.

I didn’t think I needed to present it like that. What other interpretation do you get from let’s wait to actually eliminate until we use the entire time allotted.

[catboi]

Sorry, I missed this before I went back to tally votes. I hope me doing that and posting it wasn't some sort of violation or anything. Didn't think of that until just now. Apologizes if so!!

It is entirely fine to post unofficial vote counts, for the record. I try to keep things up to date with my vote counts but can't pay attention all the time.

[Val89]

As to your first part, you're correct it was Asphodelus. However, the TTTT vote was a OMGUS vote. And I missed where Aspho voted you in between Italiano and TTTT.

For as much as it's worth, my gut feeling (and I concede that having missed that Aspho was specifically asked by TTTT where T02 was slinging slit demonstrates I don't have a sufficient handle on the game to be putting too much stock in my gut feelings presently) was that the vote on myself was also an OMGUS vote, in that my vote has been resting on her slot the whole game, and it possible she could have expected all the votes to have dropped off her over the course of her V/LA and missed that mine was still there because of my own semi-V/LA status.

[ItalianoVD]

As to your second part, I was just simply agreeing with Furtive that the back and forth between Take and Italiano early on could be a scum team. Rather far fetched, but possible.

Townpoints for thinking outside the box.

[Takemikazuchi02]

@TTTT

I want you to give your thoughts on today's developments

[ItalianoVD]

Well you all wanted some more thoughts from me. I’m placing BigTerp, TTTT, and Corn in my townpile. Although with Corn I gotta ask some more questions because I know he can play the way he is playing as scum. TTTT is more gut and tone based. BigTerp is more for thinking about possibilities and being open to actually say it.

[Val89]

I don't think all this bickering is gonna get us anywhere. I sympathize with Aspho, I do find Italiano and to a lesser extent TTTT annoying and unfun to play but we need to play to win.

I'm gonna try to be more civil and I hope Aspho does the same and TTTT gets off high horse. I think Italiano is beyond compromise unfortunately..

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

You seem to be backing off the toxicity now so that's good

That's quite the take given what I'm seeing.

[BigTerp]

I'm comfortable with my vote on Italiano. Would like to see a second wagon to hopefully generate more and better discussion, but am not against getting Italiano back up to E-2 or even E-1 to see what might shake out.

Well you missed it. I was already at E1.

Actually, I specifically mentioned it here 259 and how it seemed to generate some interesting movement/discussion amongst others, not just yourself. Hence my desire to get you back up in that direction again. Didn't seem to garner much interest so I decided to throw some heat towards my second best scum read, abdbla, and see what happens.

[CornPuffBuddha]

Ask away, Italiano. I will say that I don't think what Terp put forwards in 282 is necessarily true. I'd like to avoid jumping to conclusions like "if X flips scum, then Y must also be scum" this early on in general, especially when it's based on such flimsy reasoning.

[abdbla]

@Aspho

What are your thoughts on my, Corn and Abd's behavior in comparison to last game?
Same question to

@Corn

and

@Abd

Hmmm.

Takemikazuchi02: Still leaning town. I just don't feel like the playstyle particularly matches being scum. From my limited experience being scum, being focused and/or talked down doesn't make you mad because you know you're wrong. It's reminiscent of psychology essays talking about how people react when accused of severe crimes. Those guilty are already aware of the fact, and so tend to lean more towards fear or nervosity. Those innocent tend to display a kind of righteous anger, or utter shock. I definitely think T02 hews closer to the latter.

In general the actual argument is a wash, but I don't ascribe particularly good rhetorical chops to T02 (no offense) from the previous game, so that's not particularly AI for me.

Asphodelus: Actually feel better after the clarifications. Things make sense, somewhat. I'll give them a null read, definitely people i'd more like to go after. The fact that they want to push TTTT and see Italiano as kind of nullish seems a little bold for a scum who hasn't participated, too. Of course, the TTTT push after thinking they're town is strange, and I just don't understand the purpose of post 261. I can't look at it without thinking of the "refuses to elaborate, leaves" meme.

CornPuffBuddha: Color me biased, seeing as I've only ever played with him as scum, and he voted me, but man, I don't like 270. In all fairness, posts like 239 are good, and I agreed with most of it. I don't know, gun to my head, if Italiano flips scum at some point, I'd probably say Corn is the scumpartner, and vice versa. I'm getting more and more unsure on this read as time goes on, however.


P-edit: I want to respond to CPB, so here goes. Bacon stripes incoming.

Abd

- This could just be the different style of this thread (2091 had ALOT of wall posts), but looking through their ISO abd is at a glance composing much briefer and less substantive posts than last time. Which is weird because in 2091 they were scum, and I feel like they were putting in alot more effort there than they are here.

In the interest of honesty, I had a lot more information that I could discuss on from the get go. The discussion was practically centered around me as well, because I was one of the major scum-read positions. Here, I've been, well, idling, getting my notes up to standard. I wouldn't say my effort's changed.

I mean, case in point 262...

"Not relevant to the point in general, but I dislike the images. They make it hard to read the post"

. I mean really? Aspho literally spoiler'd the image, nobody else complained about it, but you still dedicated an entire quote block to it.

Very true, I quoted the part and added my comment, because I feel like it makes it harder to read. My eyes glaze over the spoiler block, and my brain has a hard time putting together the thread of the paragraph afterwards. Even reading it slowly and carefully, it took me four reads to actually piece together what was being said. It was a major impediment to the reading comprehension, in my opinion. I was just trying to ask nicely if she could not do that.

And alot of their clarifying questions are frankly useless. Aspho began a sentence with how they don't find TTTT town-leaning and in response you asked if they want TTTT eliminated because they think they're scum or "just dislike them".

Okay, in hindsight, I guess that one was obvious. I was trying to make sense of her vote, I just didn't get why she swung it like she did.

And then in the next post they say they aren't trying to come across as confrontational! Why would you want to avoid confrontation in this situation? Is confrontation not how the game is going to progress, and how you will get answers to your questions?

Insults, emotional arguments, passive aggressivity, it doesn't really help progress the game. You get answers to questions by asking them. On top of that, confronting people in such a manner makes me feel bad. It's why I apologized after being eliminated in the last game. I had taken an approach that would largely make me incredibly annoying to argue with, it made me feel guilty as all hell.

And their latest post is a concession, a passive aggressive snipe about the image thing, and then an iffy argument and another clarifying question.

Okay, in order...
If I'm wrong, I don't double down. If I feel that a paragraph of text cleared something up, I'll say that. That's exactly what happened, it cleared up the purpose of her entrance.
If the image thing came across as passive aggressive, my apologies to Asph, that wasn't my intent.
If you think my argument is iffy, please point out the flaws instead of burying the lead at the bottom of a wall of text.
Yes, I want clarification. I don't understand what she's reading as scummy in TTTT. I don't get it, are you implying that I shouldn't ask these kinds of questions? Genuine question, not trying to insult or somesuch.

And if we look back even earlier, a good amount of their post count has been dedicated to meaningless pedantic bickering about shit like the greeting the game tell. Their behavior is just straight up erratic and anti town.

I talked about this then, but yes, I decided I'd mostly stay out of discussions early on. I read <somewhere> that a threat to mafia is replacements, seeing as they usually bring in fresh perspectives that can pick up on old flaws other's had missed. I somewhat agree, seeing as I also correctly guessed the scumteam in 2091, prior to the role pm, so I thought I'd see if I could emulate it. Jury's out on the effectiveness.

[Val89]

The entire Train on T02 is started from a faulty premise, based on inappropiate statistical analysis and confusion on what a meta was.

Has there ever been more than a single vote on T02 this whole game? ISOing catboi for the VCs suggests not, but I guess there may have been a flash wagon that dissipated quickly I missed.

Again, though, because I see Aspho and T02 themselves pushing this narrative throughout - it is my recollection that I, myself, Val89, was the person to bring up what has been referred to as the 'greeting tell', and I was clear that it was something that was being used to help inform a read on TTTT, nobody else, and nobody is in fact being scumread for having greeted the game, correct?

[BigTerp]

Italiano is basically saying they have it figured out, yet don't want to "rush" the game. The point is to win and eliminate mafia, not drag things out for whatever reason. Am I missing something here?

Yes, but it’s also to cover all your bases and make sure you are 100% comfortable with moving forward. It’s not a blitz and I could be wrong so that’s why taking the allotted time is important.

Fair enough, but that is not at all how you presented it.

I didn’t think I needed to present it like that. What other interpretation do you get from let’s wait to actually eliminate until we use the entire time allotted.

You're posting is just all over the place. You go from "not knowing what's going on" here 65 to having it figured out 20 posts later here 86 and being able to "forward the gamestate". But you didn't then because "scum won’t like that because this game will be short" and you'd rather "take a laid back approach". Now it's because you want to "cover all your bases" and be "100% comfortable with moving forward." Again, not at all how you presented it earlier.

[BigTerp]

Ask away, Italiano. I will say that I don't think what Terp put forwards in 282 is necessarily true. I'd like to avoid jumping to conclusions like "if X flips scum, then Y must also be scum" this early on in general, especially when it's based on such flimsy reasoning.

Are you asking for myself or Italiano to address this? I will anyway. Yeah, it might be a bit of a stretch, but Take was reacting to something (TTTT's vote) WAY more than needed, especially given the fact that Take was saying the vote was pointless. If Take has skin in the game (Aspho is his scum partner) it's the only reason I can think of as to why Take kept bringing up TTTT's "pointless" vote. Since then, however, Take has admitted that he is reading TTTT scummy and finds him annoying. So could certainly be more to it that my thoughts there and simply just the "bickering" we've been plagued with early on this game.

[Asphodelus]

Good Day Fam,

First thing's first.

My vote on TTTT is more OMGUS than it is a real vote

. 213 irks me in a fundamental level that I can not explain. It is the worst post in this game for so many reasons. If you're wondering why I'm voting them, its that post alone. For me, he's scummy because he's incredibly arrogant, most of his posts are literal just pointing at other people, and its rapid posting. Its just things like 253 255 and 218. His Iso and the like don't actually 'inform' or 'lead' things, as much as come from an appeal to authority. The assumption you have to make that he's leading somewhere is that he's town, which is not a valid assumption. I find it very close to throwing everything at everyone so noone asks him about anything. His votes have been on people without a wagon (save me, but that was odd to do to begin with), and I'd make the claim it's more 'i am giving you leads while not doing anything myself' approach.

Now, onwards.

You're asking for my leads and such and townsread:

T02

- He's basically playing the same the other game when he was being attacked by trist and such for no reason. I see he's easy to aggrevate, but hes not actually gone against anything. He's not following trends, he's just voting on people that annoy him as always.

Furgitive

-- Only person with a cool head, and I think they're basically the whole

Spoiler: Another Meme

Thing going on.

Abdbla

-- Statistical analysis. As much as I disagree with his conclusion, we've hit a point where we agree on the method. I think he's trying to game solve still, but the issue is that's basically the same as Scum Abdbla. However, this time, he isn't trying to push the wagon away or lead a new one; though in context for last game, you did sub into a scummy slot.

BigTerp

-- he's actually playing, participating and analyzing like things in 259. While I dont necessarily agree with most of the conclusions he reaches, It feels more like analyzation and an attempt at game solve

Vel

-- Null. BigTerp is doing a massive catch up game

Italiano

-

Which is it, did you solve the game, or do you have no idea what's happening

TTTT

- Reasons above. Randomly poking and saying 'explain' is not game solving.

[Takemikazuchi02]

Small thoughts on everyone

Italiano:

Lean scum. What is there to say that hasn't been said? He's so scummy its a joke at this point.

Val89:

Lean scum. Val's behavior fits perfectly with how I imagine maf would play this game. Don't post much and don't be controversial to stay under the radar.

TTTT:

Null. I don't like his arrogance but that's not alignment indicative. His playstyle so far has been asking others to talk, randomly voting people and throwing wild accusations but he never shared his thoughts, Its as if he wants to solve the game by himself while leaving town in the dark because we're too stupid for him. Also, 213 is so cringy

Abdbla:

Null. Lurky, a lot less active than last game where he was maf.

Aspho:

Null. I don't like her OMGUS votes but I sympathize with her frustration in this game. Has brought up a lot of good points which I like.

Furtive:

Lean town. Active and with mostly well reasoned takes. Isn't afraid to disagree with people. Has been a bit too reactive in his playstyle, commenting on new happenings more so than actively trying to advance the game.

Bigterp:

Lean town. Very active, has good takes, asks good questions and tries to advance the game. No complaints.

Corn:

Lean town. Same as furtive But since I can compare his playstyle to that of our last game where he was maf I'm more confident in my read on him.

[TTTT]

EB-WOP:

I find TTTT annoying and Scummy.

I am aware I am biased.

still waiting for you to explain how you went from "TTTT is town but weird" to "TTTT is scum"
it's either a bad scum pivot
or a bad town OMGUS

[TTTT]

I said I'm going to do my part to de-escalate the toxicity of this game
but I'm not going to say nothing when Asph and T02 are calling me arrogant and cringy
I'm arrogant and cringy? I didn't post a giant wall explaining that correlation doesn't imply causation
Asph's play in particular is anti-town
you don't even really scumread me
I just hurt your feelings by saying out loud what others were thinking about your mostly useless wall post
it wasn't even "Look At Me I'm So Town"
it was "Look At Me I'm So Smart"
you don't have to like me, but if you are town then get your vote on someone you scumread

[TTTT]

@TTTT

I want you to give your thoughts on today's developments

I don't care for the abdbla wagon
but I'm also having happier thoughts about CornPuff
Furtive is starting to move to my scum pile because of
POE
and he's not as engaged as his prior town games

[furtiveglance]

@TTTT

I want you to give your thoughts on today's developments

I don't care for the abdbla wagon
but I'm also having happier thoughts about CornPuff
Furtive is starting to move to my scum pile because of
POE
and he's not as engaged as his prior town games

How dare you. I'm probably more engaged than you, you toxic, arrogant veteran who thinks he's better than everyone >:(

How's that for a reaction check

[TTTT]

pretty sure Aspho is town here btw
this approach rarely comes from newer scum players

[TTTT]

Furtive
you totally passed the test
locktown status achieved!
not really
I want you to be town (like CornPuff)
but if you are it's gonna take some work bc I don't see it yet

[furtiveglance]

Good Day Fam,

First thing's first.

My vote on TTTT is more OMGUS than it is a real vote

. 213 irks me in a fundamental level that I can not explain. It is the worst post in this game for so many reasons. If you're wondering why I'm voting them, its that post alone. For me, he's scummy because he's incredibly arrogant, most of his posts are literal just pointing at other people, and its rapid posting. Its just things like 253 255 and 218. His Iso and the like don't actually 'inform' or 'lead' things, as much as come from an appeal to authority. The assumption you have to make that he's leading somewhere is that he's town, which is not a valid assumption. I find it very close to throwing everything at everyone so noone asks him about anything. His votes have been on people without a wagon (save me, but that was odd to do to begin with), and I'd make the claim it's more 'i am giving you leads while not doing anything myself' approach.

Now, onwards.

You're asking for my leads and such and townsread:

T02

- He's basically playing the same the other game when he was being attacked by trist and such for no reason. I see he's easy to aggrevate, but hes not actually gone against anything. He's not following trends, he's just voting on people that annoy him as always.

Furgitive

-- Only person with a cool head, and I think they're basically the whole

Spoiler: Another Meme

Thing going on.

Abdbla

-- Statistical analysis. As much as I disagree with his conclusion, we've hit a point where we agree on the method. I think he's trying to game solve still, but the issue is that's basically the same as Scum Abdbla. However, this time, he isn't trying to push the wagon away or lead a new one; though in context for last game, you did sub into a scummy slot.

BigTerp

-- he's actually playing, participating and analyzing like things in 259. While I dont necessarily agree with most of the conclusions he reaches, It feels more like analyzation and an attempt at game solve

Vel

-- Null. BigTerp is doing a massive catch up game

Italiano

-

Which is it, did you solve the game, or do you have no idea what's happening

TTTT

- Reasons above. Randomly poking and saying 'explain' is not game solving.

1) I like that you also colour code reads
2) Furgitive is a made up word. Fugitive means escapee. My name is furtiveglance, which is a secretive look.
3) Your read on TTTT is still incredibly contradictory. You have them as your biggest scumread despite it not being a 'real vote'.