Micro 1051 | Minimalist Micro Normal | Postgame

[Tracer Bullet]

for example in this large dance game:

viewtopic.php?p=13195947#p13195947


This votecount is at 8P

a T/T pair is at E-1

SS/Ydrasse, both scum players are off wagon and SS decides not to hammer and tells Ydrasse also not to hammer.[4/6 town votes are on this wagon, the only people that are town not voting this wagon are the wagon targets, so it wasn't even like he could've gotten other people to vote it]

If he hammers this kills 2 town players and brings them to F6 (Elo)

Instead the wagon turns away and he loses.

Another example is

viewtopic.php?p=12358352#p12358352

this is a game I replaced into and I am on a team with SS.

We could've hammered Mena here and gone to Elo with a decent setup

Instead SS doesn't want Mena hammered because he thinks it would look bad and he doesn't think there is a risk since the lead wagons are T/T

fast forward like 10 hours and Mena/Peta make up and kiss and suddenly SS is at 4 and we're about to get completely blown out.



SS is very allergic to hammering town when he is mafia. He overvalues being townread against intermediate objectives like "killing people"

[Tracer Bullet]

on the other hand I don't really believe being townread is important at all when I play mafia - my focus is always on killing the next target whoever that may be.

I rarely if ever get townread as either alignment.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm not really willing to bet the entire game that Toogeloo flips mafia here.

I think there's a decent chance town are death tunneling me for shit reasons so this game is never going to be winnable as long as I'm alive.

and I'd rather die here than be a walking mislim at elo

I think you're just justifying your own exit from the game rather than seriously arguing self-hammering as town will be in favour of towns wincon.

if wallflower is town then if we mislim today she will vote me and we will lose

this is just a fact

I don't think this is representative of how I have played so far. On Day 1, Toogeloo was my preferred vote option over you, but Day 2 after reconsideration I have decided that Toogeloo is more likely town. It is true that I strongly think you are scum and I think that a lot of this is you pulling out everything you can to stay alive as scum, but I'll always take new information into account and re-evaluate.

If we vote out toogeloo and toogeloo flips as town

are you going to vote for me tommorrow?

[Tracer Bullet]

if the answer to that question is yes then it is absolutely representative of how you will play

[Tracer Bullet]

if me/tooge r tvt, mafia dont have a reason to be invested in which of us dies

Unless they're someone who's afraid of you. Which is probably everyone here?

it is illogical to be afraid of me if I am widely scumread by townies and the conftown directing the game into a dichotomy because my viable angles of play are extremely limited.

[Wallflower]

if the answer to that question is yes then it is absolutely representative of how you will play

The answer is very much “dunno”

[Wallflower]

I also don’t want to flip toogeloo

[Tracer Bullet]

I am fine with being flipped if that's what you truly want but you're going to have to carry tomorrow for both of us.

[Wallflower]

SS is very allergic to hammering town when he is mafia. He overvalues being townread against intermediate objectives like "killing people"

Thanks for this. It does make me question S_S's alignment more.

Okay, let's talk.

From my perspective, a you/RCE scumteam makes a lot of sense. I think that you got yourself in hot water early for whatever reason and have been playing balls to the wall since then, probably not really expecting it to work out as well as it did but once it did work with people going for that Megazu flashwagon have sort of kept it up. For example, the whole "I'll self-hammer" antic. You got multiple people fussing over you begging you to not self-hammer. Brilliant! I'm in awe.
RCE I used to think was town but on recall my reasons for thinking that were flimsy as. I also notice how RCE consistently brings up thinking you may be scum but never commits to it. Also multiple times attempts to promote interest in an alternative wagon (for e.g. S_S, then me with the nonsense vote/unvote) without actually wanting to be the force behind it.

But I could be wrong. I know I may be building up your scumgame too much in my head by seeing all of this as some master manipulative scumplay (although my theory is that a lot of it has been a bit... accidental), so I want to consider other options.

Tracer, who do you think is scum? What is a viable team here?

[Tracer Bullet]

might just be Norwegian Boy / Something Smart

[Wallflower]

I'm assuming that with the worst killed, mafia no longer have daytalk, so even with S_S being hammer-averse, why doesn't Norwe hammer you. A you-town flip and Ircher kill leads to me being elim'd probably.

[Tracer Bullet]

like if Toogeloo is mafia and we're at 3-3

then the most reasonable partner is Wallflower because Ircher, Tooge, WF on me would make 3 votes and there's no partner hammering.

I think if Tooges has a partner outside of WF the partner would hammer because why not when you have a stake in the 1v1.[Unless it's SS because that dude is terrified of getting his hands dirty as mafia I've never seen anyone so hammer shy in my life]

So if Tooge-Scum then partner in SS/WF???

I think maybe Tooge town cuz Tooges just doesn't seem that invested [yes I know I said this was a scum tell earlier but the more I think about it, maybe Tooge does want revenge on me and their disinterest has more to do with just not giving a shit about the game which is something they alluded to earlier]

So in the Tooge-Town world then we have a T/T wagon btw me/tooge and where would scum position in such a scenario -

I think probably the best elimination for scum is Toogeloo because I have a lot of baggage and both conftowns wanted me dead, that will be alot of pressure to flip me - also if WFlower is town, I'd say she votes me with over 95% pvalue tomm which is a wrapped scum win.

I think WFlower is probably town in this scenario because I don't think she needs to really throw her weight into scumreading me when the dichotomy forced by Ircher is already a TvT - her angles of play tomm post Tracer town flip are not

great

Would leave RCE - Norwe - SS.


Norwe has been defending me for two days now and I'm not actually sure Town!Him defends me this hard because I have absolutely rekt him as scum in multiple games and I'm not sure he can reliably townread me to the point of hard defending me.

I feel like he's using me as a sort of shield - like as long as town votes are stuck on me [Ircher, Duckie, Wallflower] those votes aren't going to be going

elsewhere

you keep a shield alive because it attracts attention and keeps people from voting you or your partner - if your shield ever gets yeeted, you look

good

for having hard defended Tracer!town and you gain thread clout/control.

Also I don't understand his town motivation to buy into Ircher's Dichotomy - yes Ircher is conftown but Ircher's townplay is like not very good and he's barely paying attention to the game - two things Norwe is not only aware of, but Norwe actually pushed Ircher for this game. So why does Norwe even decide to play along with Ircher's dichotomy in the first place? If Norwe sees himself as the loudest town voice in the room he should be re-shaping the game towards a town win con instead of just playing along with Ircher.

Scum!Norwe has a lot of incentive to actually let Ircher's Dichotomy stand if Tooge/Tracer are both town - which is one of the points I absolutely HATED about 899

It just reeks of scum saying oooh I'd rather kill this townie rather than that townie because INSERT REASONS here which is not a town mindset at all.


I dunno it's hard to tell between RCE/SS which one is scummier. I have a bad track record of reading SS correctly. I guess I just think it would be hilarious if this is the third time SS had a chance to hammer and send his scum team to a favorable Elo and he decided to freeze up and not hammer and the game got away from him and he ended up losing.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm assuming that with the worst killed, mafia no longer have daytalk, so even with S_S being hammer-averse, why doesn't Norwe hammer you. A you-town flip and Ircher kill leads to me being elim'd probably.

if Tooge/Me are both Town, then Norwe doesn't actually feel any pressure to hammer or readflip on me. It would look extremely strange.

[Tracer Bullet]

pondering if maybe we make a deal

I get yeeted today - you all deadsheep me on the Norwe/SS solution and kill them one after the other no questions asked.

if I'm wrong then you can blame me for being trash tier player post game.

[RCEnigma]

Will have to be without me, I'm not voting norwee in any world.

[Wallflower]

pondering if maybe we make a deal

I get yeeted today - you all deadsheep me on the Norwe/SS solution and kill them one after the other no questions asked.

if I'm wrong then you can blame me for being trash tier player post game.

I like your post on Norwe, but if I'm choosing between you/Norwe rn I probably still choose you.

I'm def on board with not limming Toog, and I agree that if you're town I would not know who to choose between SS and RCE.

[Tracer Bullet]

I'm assuming that with the worst killed, mafia no longer have daytalk, so even with S_S being hammer-averse, why doesn't Norwe hammer you. A you-town flip and Ircher kill leads to me being elim'd probably.

is this a legit dumbtell btw?

cuz mason encryptor shouldn't disable mafia daytalk

[Wallflower]

oh sorry, I assumed it was some anti-swing mechanic where the mason encryptor being alive enabled mafia daytalk, but I realised the role PM was posted and it doesn't mention anything, so never mind!

[Tracer Bullet]

my point about the dumbtell is

that you can't be mafia if you think a town encryptor getting killed actually disables mafia daytalk because that's literally not how an encryptor works and if you're mafia you would know that.

so if mafia you would've known that mafia daytalk was unaffected by encryptor death and faked the tell that you "don't know"

I'm kind of leaning towards this being a real dumbtell which means you're just town here.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Norwe has been defending me for two days now and I'm not actually sure Town!Him defends me this hard because I have absolutely rekt him as scum in multiple games and I'm not sure he can reliably townread me to the point of hard defending me.

I feel like he's using me as a sort of shield - like as long as town votes are stuck on me [Ircher, Duckie, Wallflower] those votes aren't going to be going elsewhere you keep a shield alive because it attracts attention and keeps people from voting you or your partner - if your shield ever gets yeeted, you look good for having hard defended Tracer!town and you gain thread clout/control.

Pretty sure if i point to previous scum games i've had you'll see that i as scum prefer to just kill anyone that's E-1. Like my play isn't as big brain as you are suggesting. Where i'm like "Ah yes, i'll pull the extremely risky move of trying to pocket "Player that i view as a threat to me, whom i know is capable of turning their reads around for miniscule reasons and is thus therefore a much better player to just kill if given the opportunity" so i can in the next day... idk, keep them around for no reason? Instead of propagating a gamestate with much simpler players to have around that i can much more easily manipulate?
Like ur view of my play is completely incompitable with how i actually play. Which i'm wondering is because you genuinely view it this way or you are just making shit up to see if people buy into it and start to scumread me for playing into an "scum meta" that is wrong.

[Wallflower]

my point about the dumbtell is

that you can't be mafia if you think a town encryptor getting killed actually disables mafia daytalk because that's literally not how an encryptor works and if you're mafia you would know that.

so if mafia you would've known that mafia daytalk was unaffected by encryptor death and faked the tell that you "don't know"

I'm kind of leaning towards this being a real dumbtell which means you're just town here.

I mean, I probably don't make sense as mafia anyway, but if that's how you get there then sure?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Actually that's wrong. My play IS bigger brain that you are suggesting. And that is precisely why if this was an scum!Norwee/town!Tracer/Town!Toog situation as you are suggesting. That i would hammer a stake through your heart the moment it was possible. And it was VERY possible.

[NorwegianboyEE]

I'm starting to wonder if you actually just bad.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Cus i don't buy you actually scumread me for "paranoia" here.
VOTE: Tracer

[NorwegianboyEE]

Like this just some opportunist shit here, i'm going out of my way to see good intentions from you, and you twisting my words in an very evil way that is making me PUKE.