Micro 1054 || Fuzzy Friends Coalition || Game Over!

[Roden]

Hello

I skimmed the past couple pages and mod posts, can I get a basic summary of anything important/notable that happened so far?

[Roden]

Also the main reason I replaced in was because I saw it was Mala, and I knew from a recent town game of her's that she's been feeling off because of IRL stuff, so I town read the slot beforehand. After reading some of her posts this game, they seem very reminiscent of that game.

[Roden]

The coalition has

failed.

Members: Aristeia, Datisi, Irrelephant11, Menalque, skitter30

Gonna ISO skim these five for now.

[Roden]

Hello

I skimmed the past couple pages and mod posts, can I get a basic summary of anything important/notable that happened so far?

coalition failed - we are eliminating inside this group of 5:

skitter
ari
datisi
menal
irrelephant

you should let us know who you want to vote off.

If I understand right, both scum can be in here. Is there anyone who can cross off the list as town? Since it was basically a nomination format, I'd consider town locking anyone who seemed to be a consistent choice Day 1.

[Roden]

Why does Mena want to kill outside of the coalition? Is it just a hard scum read?

[Roden]

I refuse to live in a world where StD is town

I don't understand this, Mena doesn't scum case STD before this post and only ever says that he needs more content in order to assess him.

[Roden]

1117 was about std, and he had previously said he wouldn't vote for a coalition with him in

not exactly a scumcase but yea

he had mentioned suspicion of him a few times before as well, like 492

I saw that, it just seems like there was suspicion, but it was never really explained until later. I did find a scum case afterwards but it's very meh, but I might change my mind after looking through STD's posts.

If I understand right, both scum can be in here. Is there anyone who can cross off the list as town? Since it was basically a nomination format, I'd consider town locking anyone who seemed to be a consistent choice Day 1.

ye, 1 or 2 scum. skitter was prob consensus most townread during coalition forming, rn i think it's fairly equal between skitter/ari/datisi, with some people having paranoia on each of them

Gonna skim Skitter next then. I'm looking through Mena and Datisi atm and I'm noticing that Datisi and Ari didn't seem to trust each other much early on, I'm kinda surprised they both ended up on the coalition.

[Roden]

I think Mena is town. Possibly TvT with STD? My gut says STD is town and that their attacks on each other feel familiar to a past TvT I've had with STD.

[Roden]

@Datisi:

Where's your head at? VCs aren't telling me anything about what you're thinking, you stuck to one coalition choice Day 1 and currently aren't voting anyone.

[Roden]

I think Mena is town.

why?

After reading Mena's ISO and getting a feeling for the game state, I don't think Mena vs Elephant is SvS. Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario, which makes me think it's a genuine final reads list from a dying townie. I think their frustration with this Day phase is also genuine. Going back further, though I don't think STD is scum, I do think Mena's case on him came from a solvey mindset.

@Datisi:

Where's your head at? VCs aren't telling me anything about what you're thinking, you stuck to one coalition choice Day 1 and currently aren't voting anyone.

i have an iso >.> but basically, thinking mena is town for [meta reasons that seem to not vibe with anyone other than skitter], ari is town for the way she played d1. have been thinking skitter is most likely scum in the coalition for a while (but i've kinda liked her more recent posting i guess??? jury's still out), and getting increasingly nervous about irrel

outside the coalition, thinking fire is town but fuck if i know about the other three -- std is more likely to be town than the other two i guess but i am v low confidence on all of those

I actually did read your ISO, I just wanted an updated take since EoD is approaching and you've been fence sitting.

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum, and everyone here is competent enough to coach him to not flail with his reads/solves going into Day 2. Fire is null to me only because they didn't seem to have the spotlight at all so far. I agree with STD likely being town, but disagree with your Skitter scum read, consensus nominations tend to be town and nothing in her ISO sticks out as scummy to me.

I've noticed while skimming that a lot of people think there's at least one scum between you and Ari, and while I agree, I think it's odd that no one really seemed to push you two. It's too late in the day to do it now, but you two should've been leading wagons imo, that would've given everyone plenty of info seeing who would push who and if your wagons would naturally dissipate. If you were both town, I believe scum would see you two as the optimal push on Day 2, and if I'm right on NK15 being town then scum likely would've backed him when he scum cased the two of you. I just don't see how there could be zero momentum towards wagoning either of you if you're both town and part of the coalition.

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today, I just want to finish going through his ISO first. If I end up town reading him though then idk.

[Roden]

Oof, I finished going through Elephant's ISO then saw ten more pages crop up and that he replaced out. I came away with a town lean, and after catching up I think his replacement is town. Idk who Bloodhail is an alt of but I like their entrance, and us having similar reads after replacing in feels like a good sign that I'm on the right track.

VOTE: Datisi

Gonna go back and reply to some stuff.

[Roden]

Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario,

I dont understand this bit

Basically scum doesn't make those posts and final read lists if they know they're gonna die. Rena/Elephant and Rena/Ari don't work as scum teams at that point either since they don't fit a scum agenda. I wish was more eloquent in getting my thoughts across but I can't think of a better way of explaining it.

[Roden]

Oof, I finished going through Elephant's ISO then saw ten more pages crop up and that he replaced out. I came away with a town lean, and after catching up I think his replacement is town. Idk who Bloodhail is an alt of but I like their entrance, and us having similar reads after replacing in feels like a good sign that I'm on the right track.

VOTE: Datisi

Gonna go back and reply to some stuff.

you do realize i am suggesting

you

are the most likely partner, right

anyway i hold no secrets

Ironically, I thought your slot was partnered with Datisi before I finished catching up and you replaced in. I got the feeling that Datisi was fence sitting because his partner was one of the leading wagons and he possibly didn't know whether or not to bus. And I felt that he was trying to scare/pressure me into voting Mena by suddenly seeing Mena/Mala connections even though he also tried to fight me on my Skitter town read. Plus Datisi had awkward interactions with Elephant and had virtually no read on him until somewhat recently, and even that came off as tepid suspicion, like he didn't really want to elim there.

Tbh I'm not completely over this theory yet despite town reading you. However if we do get a red Datisi flip, logically I don't see why you'd bus here, so I wouldn't want to flip you next.

I will say though that if I were partners with Datisi here, I wouldn't be distancing from him or fighting against the leading wagons. In that scenario, I have an extremely easy mis-elim chain of Elephant -> Mena -> STD/NK, and Ari would be so deeply pocketed that even if I got voted out, Datisi is still practically guaranteed to win in ELo. Me not taking that path and instead resisting it should indicate that we aren't partners, as I would've just voted Elephant and let Datisi hammer.

[Roden]

However if we do get a red Datisi flip, logically I don't see why you'd bus here

uhh bro did u even click that link cmon. everyone is going to yell at you that i would absolutely bus so i'll do it first

I will say though that if I were partners with Datisi here, I wouldn't be distancing from him or fighting against the leading wagons. In that scenario, I have an extremely easy mis-elim chain of Elephant -> Mena -> STD/NK, and Ari would be so deeply pocketed that even if I got voted out, Datisi is still practically guaranteed to win in ELo. Me not taking that path and instead resisting it should indicate that we aren't partners, as I would've just voted Elephant and let Datisi hammer.

i mean like

in this scenario datisi is deep and not sacrificing his thread position for the sake of a day 1 elim (and any sudden hammer there is pretty bad) so i don't find this super compelling but if i'm wrong i'm wrong, my highest priority was reading within the coalition

I'm not saying you never bus, I'm saying in the scenario where it's you/Datisi that it doesn't make sense for you to bus because you already have a game-winning route and all this does is draw attention to the both of you. I mean if you want to prove to me that it's totally possible for you to bus here then go ahead? I just don't see why you would power game yourself into a one-two knockout like that.

I understand why you don't quite believe that Datisi and I aren't partners though, you've had trouble reading me in the past and I'm taking that into account.

[Roden]

Tbh I do appreciate that I'm not being assumed to be level zero scum this time around.

[Roden]

its ok we are all level zero players in the eyes of saint koba

or maybe saint flavor leaf

i dunno I get them mixed up a lot when they start ranting :>

I was thinking of both of them too lmao

[Roden]

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum

that reminds me, idk if anyone commented on it at the time cause sorting roden wasn't super high priority

but this is a bizarre take

Bizarre players require bizarre takes.

I read NK15 and other players like him using a certain barometer: does this player actually believe in what they're saying? If you can determine that, it doesn't matter if you think they're saying nonsense. Tone + conviction is what matters, and it's what often gets that kind of player caught when they're scum.

[Roden]

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum

that reminds me, idk if anyone commented on it at the time cause sorting roden wasn't super high priority

but this is a bizarre take

Bizarre players require bizarre takes.

I read NK15 and other players like him using a certain barometer: does this player actually believe in what they're saying? If you can determine that, it doesn't matter if you think they're saying nonsense. Tone + conviction is what matters, and it's what often gets that kind of player caught when they're scum.

why does changing their solve every time they pop in the thread read as tunneled and confident to you

They didn't change their solve, NK15 still wants Ari/Datisi as of their last post but settled for hunting else where because they kept getting shut down.

[Roden]

nk do you wanna talk about how during coalition forming you were dead set on one team and nothing in the world would make you reassess but then now you've proposed like uh... 5 different teams now or something? and keep jumping to a new one and disregarding whatever the previous one that you were convinced of was?

I was dead set on ari/dats but an ari yeet seems impossible so if it is that team we lost. So I can try to find different teams... and now that I looked at these interactions between STD/irrelephant I am no longer actually convinced that it is ari/dats.

Scum doesn't publically say "my mis-elim isn't going through so let's try these guys instead"

[Roden]

Well that's an interesting night kill ...

I probably want to flip nk15 today

its probly just fireisred

i will have to reread

This is where I'm at.

Myself and Ari will probably have to be limmed after this. This leaves us with one more lim. Who?

Why Ari? Also why did you disappear around the time one of your preferred elims actually had momentum on their wagon?

[Roden]

i mean that slot was very likely hardspewed town regardless but still

was kind of looking forward to getting night killed and not rereading tbh :<

same tbh

You're probably alive because you said you wanted to elim me next. Tbh you likely would've died if Mena hadn't replaced out since he was tunneled on town slots.

[Roden]

Ngl, I wanted Datisi even before Blood replaced in but didn't think I could ever get him that late into Day 1. He has a better social game than me and is a master of AtE. Tbh I'm shocked he actually got voted out, even just a little bit of support from a team mate would've saved him imo.

That's the main reason I'm reevaluating my read on NK15, because while I think it's possible Fire bussed, I don't think the scum team was prepared for a last minute Datisi elim. I think it's just more likely he didn't get any help rather than him getting bussed.

[Roden]

Ngl, I wanted Datisi even before Blood replaced in but didn't think I could ever get him that late into Day 1. He has a better social game than me and is a master of AtE. Tbh I'm shocked he actually got voted out, even just a little bit of support from a team mate would've saved him imo.

That's the main reason I'm reevaluating my read on NK15, because while I think it's possible Fire bussed, I don't think the scum team was prepared for a last minute Datisi elim. I think it's just more likely he didn't get any help rather than him getting bussed.

To add on to the "scum weren't prepared" idea: I think all of Datisi's WIFOM attempts at the end were fake.

[Roden]

Tbh you likely would've died if Mena hadn't replaced out since he was tunneled on town slots.

what slots are you referring to here

The slots he was tunneled on.

We had this conversation yesterday.

[Roden]

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

more than roden. i dunno maybe it is just ari/datisi and nk15 is a god i really don't know what to think

You literally haven't interacted with me

What makes you think I'm scum

[Roden]

Can anyone explain why they think I bus Datisi instead of just voting out Elephant and setting up Mena as the next mis-elim?

[Roden]

Tbh you likely would've died if Mena hadn't replaced out since he was tunneled on town slots.

what slots are you referring to here

The slots he was tunneled on.

We had this conversation yesterday.

...did we? i can't find it

why are you so confident in them being town?

Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario,

I dont understand this bit

Basically scum doesn't make those posts and final read lists if they know they're gonna die. Rena/Elephant and Rena/Ari don't work as scum teams at that point either since they don't fit a scum agenda. I wish was more eloquent in getting my thoughts across but I can't think of a better way of explaining it.

It was with Skitter actually but yeah.

[Roden]

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

more than roden. i dunno maybe it is just ari/datisi and nk15 is a god i really don't know what to think

You literally haven't interacted with me

What makes you think I'm scum

mala

Go on.

[Roden]

I'm good with getting Datisi Day 1and being happy with that

But it's going to be annoying as fuck if I get voted out after that just because people don't want to bother reading me

[Roden]

How should I be reading you

Correctly would be preferable

[Roden]

I'm good with getting Datisi Day 1and being happy with that

But it's going to be annoying as fuck if I get voted out after that just because people don't want to bother reading me

dont worry about that right now

i get you think it's nk15, what are your other reads looking like right now?

I don't think it can be anyone besides NK15 or Fire.

I town locked Skitter early and Datisi tried to fight me on it, so I feel confident that she's town.

I don't think Ari is ever paired with Datisi, especially after that EoD where he was genuinely tilted over getting flash elim'd. He was set up to stay in town's good graces all game and had Ari in his pocket early on. Ari was reluctant to believe Datisi was scum, and I don't think she ever hedged or blindly trusted him.

I'm confident you didn't bus and already explained why. Your position in the game is too precarious to survive all the way to ELo and not be NK'd while Datisi was much better set up to solo win ELo.

STD early on was a gut town read, but going into today it's clear how lost he was all game.

[Roden]

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

more than roden. i dunno maybe it is just ari/datisi and nk15 is a god i really don't know what to think

You literally haven't interacted with me

What makes you think I'm scum

mala

Go on.

good morning friends!!

v/la tuesdays and wednesdays

- uni is hell on these days. i see the *extremely* short deadline for the coalition however so i will do my best to at least check in on my phone during these days if need be

HEAL: datisi
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens
HEAL: aristeia

fire reads kinda tonally the same as he did last game. yes i did misread him that game shut up. i have a probably very horrible reason for a townping on malakittens. and i was always gonna heal ari anyway but i do genuinely like the callout in 26 to keep an eye on the deadline.

VOTE: aristeia <3

ari, why do you think fire is mafia?

datis is prob town
ari feels town as well.

HEAL: datis
HEAL: ari

idk about skitter,
i'm very bad about reading std
i dont have much exp with fire

why do they townread each other so early that bothers me.

there's also literally no progression on her read of me it doesn't seem real. her other scumreads are kind of meh. she says things like "scum is in {std, ari, datisi} and also things like "ari/datisi aren't s/s" so why not go all in on me? she just...doesn't for no reason. and it's just kind of a garbled mess that looks like datisi kicked her in the pants to post

but i don't really know how to make it clearer to you that i have no idea what to do i feel like you're trying to jump on me for a weak read and i'm like i know it's a weak read but it's all i got.

Mala not going all in on you should be clearing after Mena's flip. Mena was tunneled on you and Mala could've easily followed, instead she voted Mena.

Mala town read Datisi because Datisi's specialty is getting town read and guilting people into backing off their scum reads on him. I can only guess why Datisi "town read" Mala, but seeing as he also town read me while shading Blood, it was likely to build a fake association and pocket her.

And I'm not jumping on you for a weak read, I'm annoyed that you just defaulted to scum reading me again and that getting you to explain it is like pulling teeth.

[Roden]

Can anyone explain why they think I bus Datisi instead of just voting out Elephant and setting up Mena as the next mis-elim?

bc once bloodhail comes in with a scumread on datisi, datisi like almost always dies there? based on gamestate and how people were responding to him, even if he dies first datisi prob flips next, and you would want to be on that early

your trajectory was heading towards irrel until bloodhail showed up, and then you followed him onto datisi

Nah, Datisi lives without my vote there. Blood would've been at 4 votes at EoD if I voted there instead. I'm the only one who actually kept my vote on Datisi, without that momentum Blood just dies.

Also let's not pretend you all were itching to vote Datisi. You weren't. And if you think really think Datisi couldn't work his way back into being a town read then you're massively underestimating him. Especially since Mena literally always dies after an Elephant mis-elim, if you disagree then show the posts that were against that yesterday.

Y'all were absolutely terrified of voting Datisi yesterday and hurting his feelings if he actually flipped town. If that weren't true the leading wagons wouldn't have been Mena vs Elephant.

[Roden]

VOTE: NK15

Gonna just mentally check out of this game since I'm getting tilted and we've already won anyway. NK15/Fire is GG.

[Roden]

I changed my mind, vote me out tomorrow if this is wrong.

[Roden]

I changed my mind, vote me out tomorrow if this is wrong.

meh dont necessarily worry about that right now

do you have other thoughts on stuff that's been said?

happy scumday btw

Thanks.

I have to die today, because if it isn't Fire then scum just takes me and STD to ELo for a free win.

VOTE: Roden

[Roden]

For the record, I don't think I played badly this game. I'm proud of myself for correctly reading Datisi and helping to turn Day 1 around, and that my original read on NK15 was correct and that my method for reading him is more solid I expected it to be. My presence in a potential ELo is just a detriment, and I don't want to argue with STD if it comes to it.

[Roden]

nah don't selfvote roden

i'm not convinced it's you

so take your vote off and talk to me about who you think it is

I still think it's Fire, but if I'm wrong we lose. That's just how it is.

[Roden]

Fire, who are you pushing tomorrow

[Roden]

nah don't selfvote roden

i'm not convinced it's you

so take your vote off and talk to me about who you think it is

I still think it's Fire, but if I'm wrong we lose. That's just how it is.

why do you think it is fire?

NK15/Fire was the PoE, mainly because I just town read everyone else. NK15 was only there because nobody liked my town read or reasoning and I figured if I was wrong about a slot, it was that one, plus Datisi's elim also felt clearing of Fire at the time.

[Roden]

but im guessing you're asking under the assumption that you are flipping today and are town

if thats the case, then if it isn't std, then he prob gets nkd, and then ari votes me, and then bh either ends the game or it's ari and then deciding on that is his problem

if std doesn't die then ill be scrutinizing him carefully to make sure he is town but idk if i would exactly be pushing there

im actually not really sure of a potential scenario where i am going to be the one pushing anyone

maybe bh and ari turn on each other and then i cry in the corner

I've been running scenarios in my head and this is exactly what I've been thinking about as well.

[Roden]

how does Datisi's elim clear fire?

The way Fire played it felt unaligned. They added pressure that wasn't necessary if they were partnered, and it wouldn't indicate associatives between them if Fire just voted out Blood. The mad scramble to flip Datisi at the last couple hours shouldn't have happened if the team was Datisi/Fire.

Then again, we're on Day 4 now and it wasn't NK15. Also wasn't Skitter apparently, which I didn't expect since I did town lock her but I don't understand why she was killed.

[Roden]

For the record, I don't think I played badly this game. I'm proud of myself for correctly reading Datisi and helping to turn Day 1 around, and that my original read on NK15 was correct and that my method for reading him is more solid I expected it to be. My presence in a potential ELo is just a detriment, and I don't want to argue with STD if it comes to it.

please don't throw in the towel by selfvoting

have you not seen my posts - i am not at all convinced it is you

i realize you're worried about getting tunneled by std here but let's pick up the pieces and try to figure things out, yeah?

i understand feeling like you're being tunneled can be irritating and you had to deal with very unusual circumstances this game but i'd like it if you tried your best here, all right?

It's frustrating because STD is just defaulting to scum reading me against all logic once again and it feels like he's learned nothing. His read on Mala doesn't make any sense and his defense of it is even worse. He'd rather fight me than solve me which just makes it an automatic town loss if we go to ELo.

But honestly the worst part about this is that he absolutely knows how far I'll go to save a scum buddy because of the one newbie game we rolled scum together in. He was sinking and I still did everything I could to kill apathy and shade townies to keep him alive. Yet he thinks I'd join a game, see my partner is fucking Datisi, and decide to sink his perfect positioning in the game by bussing him instead of just voting Elephant and drawing aggro from everyone so that he could slip into ELo without drawing attention.

It's just bonkers to think I'd do any of that, especially when Datisi has a much better social game than me and had several people pocketed. As opposed to me who literally replaced into a scum read slot who can't get people to back off unless I self vote and AtE.

[Roden]

how does Datisi's elim clear fire?

The way Fire played it felt unaligned. They added pressure that wasn't necessary if they were partnered, and it wouldn't indicate associatives between them if Fire just voted out Blood. The mad scramble to flip Datisi at the last couple hours shouldn't have happened if the team was Datisi/Fire.

Then again, we're on Day 4 now and it wasn't NK15. Also wasn't Skitter apparently, which I didn't expect since I did town lock her but I don't understand why she was killed.

I don't understand.

Fire didn't vote Datisi until like the last minute when Datisi was at 3 votes[roden, me, std] and BH/Skitter are likely to vote for Datisi, I don't really see how fire voting for Datisi means anything atp.

Because he put Datisi in hammer range instead of just voting out Blood earlier when he had the chance.

[Roden]

I think Mena is town.

why?

After reading Mena's ISO and getting a feeling for the game state, I don't think Mena vs Elephant is SvS. Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario, which makes me think it's a genuine final reads list from a dying townie. I think their frustration with this Day phase is also genuine. Going back further, though I don't think STD is scum, I do think Mena's case on him came from a solvey mindset.

@Datisi:

Where's your head at? VCs aren't telling me anything about what you're thinking, you stuck to one coalition choice Day 1 and currently aren't voting anyone.

i have an iso >.> but basically, thinking mena is town for [meta reasons that seem to not vibe with anyone other than skitter], ari is town for the way she played d1. have been thinking skitter is most likely scum in the coalition for a while (but i've kinda liked her more recent posting i guess??? jury's still out), and getting increasingly nervous about irrel

outside the coalition, thinking fire is town but fuck if i know about the other three -- std is more likely to be town than the other two i guess but i am v low confidence on all of those

I actually did read your ISO, I just wanted an updated take since EoD is approaching and you've been fence sitting.

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum, and everyone here is competent enough to coach him to not flail with his reads/solves going into Day 2. Fire is null to me only because they didn't seem to have the spotlight at all so far. I agree with STD likely being town, but disagree with your Skitter scum read, consensus nominations tend to be town and nothing in her ISO sticks out as scummy to me.

I've noticed while skimming that a lot of people think there's at least one scum between you and Ari, and while I agree, I think it's odd that no one really seemed to push you two. It's too late in the day to do it now, but you two should've been leading wagons imo, that would've given everyone plenty of info seeing who would push who and if your wagons would naturally dissipate. If you were both town, I believe scum would see you two as the optimal push on Day 2, and if I'm right on NK15 being town then scum likely would've backed him when he scum cased the two of you. I just don't see how there could be zero momentum towards wagoning either of you if you're both town and part of the coalition.

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today, I just want to finish going through his ISO first. If I end up town reading him though then idk.

Oof, I finished going through Elephant's ISO then saw ten more pages crop up and that he replaced out. I came away with a town lean, and after catching up I think his replacement is town. Idk who Bloodhail is an alt of but I like their entrance, and us having similar reads after replacing in feels like a good sign that I'm on the right track.

VOTE: Datisi

Gonna go back and reply to some stuff.

Not sure how this isn't a choice.

[Roden]

how does Datisi's elim clear fire?

The way Fire played it felt unaligned. They added pressure that wasn't necessary if they were partnered, and it wouldn't indicate associatives between them if Fire just voted out Blood. The mad scramble to flip Datisi at the last couple hours shouldn't have happened if the team was Datisi/Fire.

Then again, we're on Day 4 now and it wasn't NK15. Also wasn't Skitter apparently, which I didn't expect since I did town lock her but I don't understand why she was killed.

I don't understand.

Fire didn't vote Datisi until like the last minute when Datisi was at 3 votes[roden, me, std] and BH/Skitter are likely to vote for Datisi, I don't really see how fire voting for Datisi means anything atp.

Because he put Datisi in hammer range instead of just voting out Blood earlier when he had the chance.

1] Putting Datisi in "hammer range" doesn't mean anything because Datisi was at 3 votes and skitter/blood hail had both not voted for Datisi yet, Blood Hail obviously has no issue with voting for Datisi and Skitter had unvoted Blood Hail and I kind of doubt she votes for BH after BH offered to self-vote himself off to resolve the 1v1.

2] "voting out bloodhail when he had the chance"

like blood hail wagon at peak was at 4 [nk15, skitter, mena, datisi] - so 3 flipped townies + datisi!mafia. Which means any partner of Datisi's had the oppurtunity to vote off Blood Hail, it's not really clearing if it's something p much anyone can do?

1. The hammer range actually matters a lot, there was barely any time left and nearly everyone was doubting that Datisi would actually flip scum. Blood E-1 and Datisi E-2 with some convincing AtE from Datisi can save him and mis-elim the player pushing him the most.

2. The timing of it and who was actually around is what mattered at that point. Fire was around and NK15 wasn't, so I leaned more toward the latter being scum at the time.

[Roden]

Not sure how this isn't a choice.

bc the first one you say you are leaning towards voting irrel, and the second one is after irrel is gone, and bloodhail has come in with a scumread on datisi

the gamestate has changed significantly between those two, and by the point you made the datisi vote, he was likely to die even if bloodhail flipped first (assuming bh town)

at the time you voted datisi, voting irrel was not an option bc irrel was gone

You...realize I played a part in that game state change, right?

Datisi was never going to die without my vote and my reads countering his. It would've just been Blood's single vote against Datisi, which he later backed out of anyway when he self-voted soon after. I think it's completely disingenuous to pretend Datisi was in serious danger before that point.

[Roden]

the vote count was

Datisi 3 [Roden, Ari, STD]
Blood Hail 3[Nk15, Datisi, Blood Hail]
Ari 1 [Mena]
Mena 1[Fire]

Not Voting 1 [ Skitter]


I think it's pretty clear skitter/BH could swing to vote off Datisi

voting for BH is dangerous because BH can always unvote and it's unclear where hammer vote on BH comes from.

Why does Blood unvote when he self voted to secure that an elim actually happens? He was pushing Datisi harder than anyone and even he didn't think Datisi would get voted out over him.

[Roden]

Not sure how this isn't a choice.

bc the first one you say you are leaning towards voting irrel, and the second one is after irrel is gone, and bloodhail has come in with a scumread on datisi

the gamestate has changed significantly between those two, and by the point you made the datisi vote, he was likely to die even if bloodhail flipped first (assuming bh town)

at the time you voted datisi, voting irrel was not an option bc irrel was gone

You...realize I played a part in that game state change, right?

Datisi was never going to die without my vote and my reads countering his. It would've just been Blood's single vote against Datisi, which he later backed out of anyway when he self-voted soon after. I think it's completely disingenuous to pretend Datisi was in serious danger before that point.

you realize that my point is not whether datisi was going to die that day, right? ive said that multiple times in multiple contexts. i think that as soon as bloodhail shows up with a scumread on datisi, that datisi was going to die even if bloodhail flipped first. there was enough lingering suspicion on datisi out there for that to be p much a certainty imo. and i think that if datisi + his partner recognized that, it makes sense for them to set up best for elo by having a suspicion on datisi as soon as possible

This just isn't true, Mena was set up to go next after Elephant/Blood. It feels like you're just assuming Datisi rolls and dies in the Day phase which just, doesn't happen.

[Roden]

Who's pushing Datisi Day 3? Mena wanted Ari and STD. STD wants Mena and me. Skitter vs Datisi was a thing but she had doubts and wasn't make moves. Ari wants to trust Datisi. I don't really see you pushing Datisi the next day. Which just leaves me and NK, and scum can kill either one of us.

[Roden]

...I have a bad feeling that it isn't Ari or Fire. Idk. I got a really weird feeling when they both cross examined me at the same time. Ari feels really set on Fire being scum and thinking that I'm town. Fire on the other hand admitted they don't know who to push, which feels too blunt to come from scum who's in a very small PoE and needs to survive.

I still don't think it's Blood though. And STD still feels gut town. Something's off.

[Roden]

I mean Roden has self voted and fucked off from the thread

are you really scumreading that

no i was scumreading him for his earlier play

im not gonna townread him for looking like he's given up when he's most likely going to get eliminated at some point

actually his current actions probably have the best chance at getting him out of it bc people always want to try to find the sneaky clever scum when it gets to endgame

idk im not really sure if he's more likely to be scum at this point but even if he's not i want him to actually play

I didn't fuck off, I'm waiting on some kind of follow up from STD.

I'm not going to just tunnel you roden for things mala did

I wanna talk about it

[Roden]

VOTE: aristeia

don't have a ton more to say. i'm not thrilled by roden's last post but if you vote him out today and he's town i probably just just vote fire tomorrow

Why would you be in ELo tomorrow in that scenario instead of STD? Nobody suspects you or wants to vote you.

[Roden]

i guess my problem is mala did scummy things and she's not here to defend herself.

and the answers you gave are reachy. but that's probably what i should just expect from you if i'm remembering why i scumread you in control which makes it NAI.

i know it's hard but it would help if you were engaged this day phase.

like what do you think of bh's case on ari? what do you think of ari's consistent scumread of fire? what am i missing that should make it obvious you are town?

I've already given my takes on those questions.

Don't really think it's fair at all to say my answers are reachy and that they were in Control. You literally scum read me five days in a row because of something I said in RVS that game and because I didn't have solid reads on the entire player list early into Day 1. And here you're scum reading Mala in a way that implies you think she purposely game threw.

It's hard as fuck to stay engaged knowing you scum read me regardless of logic. Like you can say you aren't tunneled but you made it clear yesterday that you thought I was scum over anyone else and didn't want to question anyone.

[Roden]

VOTE: aristeia

don't have a ton more to say. i'm not thrilled by roden's last post but if you vote him out today and he's town i probably just just vote fire tomorrow

Why would you be in ELo tomorrow in that scenario instead of STD? Nobody suspects you or wants to vote you.

Blood please answer this.

[Roden]

you selected him to be scumread by you (scum) as opposed to having it come up organically as a read (town)

That's...literally what you did to my slot?

[Roden]

Wow you're doing exactly what I said you would

Shocker

[Roden]

If you were adamant it was me then why did you vote Ari

[Roden]

Also don't hedge

If you think it's me then vote me

[Roden]

what do you want me to do

Play the game

i thought it was ari yesterday you seem to think that me voting ari means i really wanted to vote you for some reason i don't get

What? You kept saying all day yesterday and the day before that you thought it was me.

[Roden]

like i didn't come after you yesterday because i thought maybe i was wrong about you but you've done nothing to really show me that i'm wrong about my suspicion of you, you're just shitting on me

What is this AtE

You literally blocked me every single time I tried to engage with you, your suspicion on me was based almost entirely on Mala's play. And when I tried to go through your read on Mala your only response was "well you weren't here so you don't get it".

Like

What am I supposed to do with that

[Roden]

then why the fuck did i vote Ari instead of you

do you think that's telling, hmm?????

I don't know

out of respect for ari, who turned out to be town, i want to look at fire some more before i vote anyone sorry to disappoint

Ok

[Roden]

Mala not going all in on you should be clearing after Mena's flip. Mena was tunneled on you and Mala could've easily followed, instead she voted Mena

This condenses the events into 2 sentences when it occurred over several days of real life so you'll have to do way better if you want to call something mala did clearing.

Mala town read Datisi because Datisi's specialty is getting town read and guilting people into backing off their scum reads on him. I can only guess why Datisi "town read" Mala, but seeing as he also town read me while shading Blood, it was likely to build a fake association and pocket her.

I don't know if this is true I mean why pocket a low impact slot she posted like 4 times and has a tendency to not post much this just doesn't seem likely

[Roden]

Mala not going all in on you should be clearing after Mena's flip. Mena was tunneled on you and Mala could've easily followed, instead she voted Mena

This condenses the events into 2 sentences when it occurred over several days of real life so you'll have to do way better if you want to call something mala did clearing.

Mala town read Datisi because Datisi's specialty is getting town read and guilting people into backing off their scum reads on him. I can only guess why Datisi "town read" Mala, but seeing as he also town read me while shading Blood, it was likely to build a fake association and pocket her.

I don't know if this is true I mean why pocket a low impact slot she posted like 4 times and has a tendency to not post much this just doesn't seem likely

This is exactly why I didn't want to be here today

[Roden]

that sure proves i didn't say "well you weren't here so you don't get it"

Thanks for agreeing

[Roden]

mala was scumreading me for a lot of the early game then changed her mind. you acting like she should have voted me doesn't apply because from what i remember she didn't go with mena until after she was done scumreading me so i don't get how that's clearing or a point in her favor.

did you answer why they would pocket a low impact slot?

Mala not going all in on you should be clearing after Mena's flip. Mena was tunneled on you and Mala could've easily followed, instead she voted Mena. I disagreed with both of Mala's votes before Blood even replaced in so you can't even say I changed gears because of him.

Why wouldn't Datisi pocket a low impact slot? There aren't any negatives.

[Roden]

do not like roden's approach so far today at all tbh so i feel a little better actually

Don't like how?

Y'all are both hedging but you're too scared to vote.

[Roden]

I'm very much struggling to understand why I bring the two people who want to vote me to ELo and not Blood, who said I was town. WIFOM isn't even a thing here, bringing Blood actually gives me a chance to win of I'm scum.

[Roden]

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

[Roden]

I'm very much struggling to understand why I bring the two people who want to vote me to ELo and not Blood, who said I was town. WIFOM isn't even a thing here, bringing Blood actually gives me a chance to win of I'm scum.

Did you miss this post Fire?

[Roden]

We've been to ELo together

Why do I bring you and not Blood

[Roden]

you're acting like you've never played elo before

Go on.

[Roden]

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

we have a whole day phase why would we be urgent? like i said i plan to read and talk and yes i am considering the possibility that it could be std, why would we vote immediately?

Because one of you is just waiting for the other to vote me.

[Roden]

I'm very much struggling to understand why I bring the two people who want to vote me to ELo and not Blood, who said I was town. WIFOM isn't even a thing here, bringing Blood actually gives me a chance to win of I'm scum.

Did you miss this post Fire?

i will have more time to talk about this later but

1) yes wifom is 100% a thing, that should be obvious
2) bloodhail also said i was town and that std was town. don't think he ever said you were for sure town, just that he had a gut lean that you might not be scum. p sure his weak eod stuff about sheeping ari/voting me if i don't vote ari was a bait to get you to leave him alive if you're scum. didn't work ig
3) it also doesn't make a ton of sense for std to kill bloodhail bc bloodhail will vote either me or you over std so keeping him alive is a win unless he reassesses based on the weirdness of killing me/you but he doesn't like to reassess in elo so idk. tbh the kill was probably made bc surface level it makes the most sense for me to make and im the most viable miselim for you

gotta go now but be back later

1) WIFOM to bring two people who I know will vote me vs the one who town read me?
2) I'm sorry, can you explain why I don't take the chance that Blood might not vote me? As opposed to...taking the two people who I know will vote me?
3) Wouldn't scum!STD kill Blood since he had a higher chance of not voting me over you? Also why do you think I'm more likely to vote you over STD?

[Roden]

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

we have a whole day phase why would we be urgent? like i said i plan to read and talk and yes i am considering the possibility that it could be std, why would we vote immediately?

Because one of you is just waiting for the other to vote me.

which of us is scum?

Take a guess.

[Roden]

You both say it's me.

Neither of you suspect each other.

Neither of you show any real urgency in trying to solve the other.

Yet you don't want to vote me.

we have a whole day phase why would we be urgent? like i said i plan to read and talk and yes i am considering the possibility that it could be std, why would we vote immediately?

Because one of you is just waiting for the other to vote me.

which of us is scum?

Take a guess.

you seem to be implying std now which is ??? bc that has not really been your progression at all actually, and it was not clear at all what you think for most of your early posts in this day phase since they were all defensive

it just seems like you're keeping your options open to see which of us has more of a possibility to turn on the other

Then vote me.

[Roden]

Like you can posture and shade all you want but if you're so certain then vote

[Roden]

Because if I'm "keeping my options open", then what exactly are you doing?

[Roden]

it also doesn't make a ton of sense for std to kill bloodhail bc bloodhail will vote either me or you over std so keeping him alive is a win unless he reassesses based on the weirdness of killing me/you but he doesn't like to reassess in elo so idk. tbh the kill was probably made bc surface level it makes the most sense for me to make and im the most viable miselim for you

it just seems like you're keeping your options open to see which of us has more of a possibility to turn on the other

These thoughts don't mesh with each other at all.

[Roden]

If one of you was obvious scum I would just vote. I haven't said anyone was obvious, if I implied that then I apologize and I'd like you to point out where that happened.

I wouldn't say I'm treating you both the same though, I still think it's more likely you. There's a low chance it's STD, if only because for STD to be town he'd have to have zero correct reads this entire game and be borderline game throwing with his blind tunnel on me but refusing to vote me yesterday when I offered to be eliminated before ELo.

[Roden]

you're acting like you've never played elo before

Go on.

[Roden]

Fire why aren't you questioning STD's abrupt scum read and vote onto Ari?

STD why aren't you doing the same for Fire?

Like you're both claiming you want to be sure before you vote, but I don't see either of you doing anything except arguing with me and shading me for not being sure who to vote for myself.

[Roden]

STD why did you prefer to vote Ari instead of me even though you hard scum read my slot almost all game and I offered to go out first

[Roden]

bc i am with my fam for memorial day and just wanted to check in to say that i will read and think and post in depth later

What if I told you I'm willing to hammer test you

[Roden]

I mean I vote STD to see whether or not you quick hammer it. If you don't then I know I you're town and I can focus on casing STD.

The only reason I'm even suggesting this is because writing my thoughts out is making me question why STD refused to vote me yesterday. I genuinely don't understand why he didn't and he won't explain why he didn't.

[Roden]

It takes 5 seconds to be current it takes more time to reanalyze the entire game

Did you ask for a fast night? At least one person said no, so we had an entire night phase to look back over the game. Did you?

[Roden]

I thought ari was scum I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Jesus christ I even cased her yesterday but you're obsessed with one comment I made a long time ago and don't even think that I could be renalyzing

Why did you think Ari was scummier than me? You cased her at the last minute, I don't see much of a progression there.

There is no "obsession", you've scum read my slot the entire game. Are you claiming you didn't...?

[Roden]

It takes 5 seconds to be current it takes more time to reanalyze the entire game

Did you ask for a fast night? At least one person said no, so we had an entire night phase to look back over the game. Did you?

Do you always?

I already reread the game so I did.

Please answer.

[Roden]

Why did you think Ari was scummier than me? You cased her at the last minute, I don't see much of a progression there.

I didn't case her at last minute but yeah I don't know if I explicitly said earlier I was worried about her. I wasn't really until Datisi flipped.

NK15 was voted out after Datisi flipped though?

There is no "obsession", you've scum read my slot the entire game. Are you claiming you didn't...?

I'm claiming I said things like "gun to head" and "maybe"

You're claiming I said things like "roden is 100% confirmed scum"

Quote where I said that.

[Roden]

No, I'm asking why you never wanted to vote me out even though you scum read my slot more consistently than everyone else in the game

[Roden]

Blood also said it was Fire and that I was town. Why were you convinced about Ari but not about anything else he said?

[Roden]

I know you haven't decided.

Tell me your thought process.

Why are you only selectively convinced by what Blood has said? What was so overwhelmingly convincing about Ari being scum, that you decided she was too scummy and scary to be in ELo in case you were wrong about me?

[Roden]

I thought his case was good. I looked at her iso and thought I found bits that could have come from scum

I think, again, you think my scumread of you was way more than it actually was and I don't know how to get that through to you

Spoiler:

i think only one of fire/mala is scum at this point

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

more than roden. i dunno maybe it is just ari/datisi and nk15 is a god i really don't know what to think

You literally haven't interacted with me

What makes you think I'm scum

mala

i think the kill is weird and i too have a dumb theory about it but it's probably just there to throw us off

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

more than roden. i dunno maybe it is just ari/datisi and nk15 is a god i really don't know what to think

You literally haven't interacted with me

What makes you think I'm scum

mala

Go on.

good morning friends!!

v/la tuesdays and wednesdays

- uni is hell on these days. i see the *extremely* short deadline for the coalition however so i will do my best to at least check in on my phone during these days if need be

HEAL: datisi
HEAL: fireisredsir
HEAL: malakittens
HEAL: aristeia

fire reads kinda tonally the same as he did last game. yes i did misread him that game shut up. i have a probably very horrible reason for a townping on malakittens. and i was always gonna heal ari anyway but i do genuinely like the callout in 26 to keep an eye on the deadline.

VOTE: aristeia <3

ari, why do you think fire is mafia?

datis is prob town
ari feels town as well.

HEAL: datis
HEAL: ari

idk about skitter,
i'm very bad about reading std
i dont have much exp with fire

why do they townread each other so early that bothers me.

there's also literally no progression on her read of me it doesn't seem real. her other scumreads are kind of meh. she says things like "scum is in {std, ari, datisi} and also things like "ari/datisi aren't s/s" so why not go all in on me? she just...doesn't for no reason. and it's just kind of a garbled mess that looks like datisi kicked her in the pants to post

but i don't really know how to make it clearer to you that i have no idea what to do i feel like you're trying to jump on me for a weak read and i'm like i know it's a weak read but it's all i got.

Mala not going all in on you should be clearing after Mena's flip. Mena was tunneled on you and Mala could've easily followed, instead she voted Mena

This condenses the events into 2 sentences when it occurred over several days of real life so you'll have to do way better if you want to call something mala did clearing.

Mala town read Datisi because Datisi's specialty is getting town read and guilting people into backing off their scum reads on him. I can only guess why Datisi "town read" Mala, but seeing as he also town read me while shading Blood, it was likely to build a fake association and pocket her.

I don't know if this is true I mean why pocket a low impact slot she posted like 4 times and has a tendency to not post much this just doesn't seem likely

VOTE: aristeia

i really think eliminating {ari,roden} wins us the game at this point

How am I supposed to interpret posts like these? How am I supposed to react after the shit fight in Control where you scum read me no matter what I did for five days straight?

[Roden]

Why didn't you just...say that? Instead of "I think it's just Roden/Mala" multiple times before voting someone else?

[Roden]

i dunno i think gth it's just roden at this point? but i dunno what to think anymore i just townread everyone else more

I dunno how much more unsure I could be about a scumread than this post

I literally just quoted several posts where you kept saying you think it's me

There's no reason to think you're unsure if you keep repeating the same scum read all game and aren't doing anything to reevaluate

[Roden]

I don't recall you reevaluating me and I don't see it in your ISO.

You also said you only voted Ari because Blood convinced you to.

[Roden]

this is bloodhail's most recent summary of his read on you:

i don't know that it's rock solid, but i have the nagging gut feeling that says it might not be roden

this is the closest he ever came to saying you were town. mostly he originally had you as the main datisi partner left after nk15, and later became "not convinced" it was you. meanwhile he said that std was basically never scum in his eyes, and in 2648 he says "it's not impossible for [fire] to be scum but id be pretty impressed". he did agree to sheep ari at eod but he was kinda blustering before that so eh

regardless

you can stop saying that he townread you now. thanks. at the very least i think it's clear that he townread me and std more, with the exception of where he said he would sheep ari

For the record, I don't think I played badly this game. I'm proud of myself for correctly reading Datisi and helping to turn Day 1 around, and that my original read on NK15 was correct and that my method for reading him is more solid I expected it to be. My presence in a potential ELo is just a detriment, and I don't want to argue with STD if it comes to it.

please don't throw in the towel by selfvoting

have you not seen my posts - i am not at all convinced it is you

i realize you're worried about getting tunneled by std here but let's pick up the pieces and try to figure things out, yeah?

i understand feeling like you're being tunneled can be irritating and you had to deal with very unusual circumstances this game but i'd like it if you tried your best here, all right?

Anyway.

[Roden]

1) WIFOM to bring two people who I know will vote me vs the one who town read me?
2) I'm sorry, can you explain why I don't take the chance that Blood might not vote me? As opposed to...taking the two people who I know will vote me?
3) Wouldn't scum!STD kill Blood since he had a higher chance of not voting me over you? Also why do you think I'm more likely to vote you over STD?

1) he didn't townread you. and we may or may not be voting you. you know that each of us scumread each other earlier in the game and we may fall back on that
2) WIFOM, or you think you can out-argue me and std and bloodhail is a lot scarier to deal with. he already caught one scum.
3) bloodhail almost certainly votes me or you over std. doesn't matter which one if std is scum. there are multiple paths open to scum!std though, he could also easily kill bloodhail since he's the towniest slot anyway and it sets him up okay in this 3p. and i mostly think you're more likely to vote me bc i think you're scum and i think thats the more viable path for scum!you to take, lol

1) He did. There are zero universes where I bring STD instead of Blood to ELo.
2) We're not doing this shit again.
3) If it's the most viable path to take then I bring the guy who said he votes you. What the fuck is this back and forth?

[Roden]

Holy shit. Every time I start to feel confident on who it is, the other one jumps in and scums it up.

[Roden]

it also doesn't make a ton of sense for std to kill bloodhail bc bloodhail will vote either me or you over std so keeping him alive is a win unless he reassesses based on the weirdness of killing me/you but he doesn't like to reassess in elo so idk. tbh the kill was probably made bc surface level it makes the most sense for me to make and im the most viable miselim for you

it just seems like you're keeping your options open to see which of us has more of a possibility to turn on the other

These thoughts don't mesh with each other at all.

if it isn't clear, uh, no offense but i think you're not playing very well if you're scum here so what i would expect you to have done originally may not necessarily apply anymore since you are taking a bizarre approach

Maybe it's because I'm not scum?? Literally no action I've taken this game makes sense if I was scum, every post I've made is bizarre and self-defeating if I'm scum. I've been saying this shit all game and even begged to die yesterday to avoid this exact situation.

Like...I seriously don't understand this.

[Roden]

I wouldn't say I'm treating you both the same though, I still think it's more likely you. There's a low chance it's STD, if only because for STD to be town he'd have to have zero correct reads this entire game and be borderline game throwing with his blind tunnel on me but refusing to vote me yesterday when I offered to be eliminated before ELo.

bc i am with my fam for memorial day and just wanted to check in to say that i will read and think and post in depth later

What if I told you I'm willing to hammer test you

??????????????????

What?

[Roden]

Fire why aren't you questioning STD's abrupt scum read and vote onto Ari?

STD why aren't you doing the same for Fire?

i recommend you drop this point because its not going to go anywhere

me and std yesterday both thought that you were more likely scum, but got convinced by bloodhail to vote ari

we had like the same trajectory p much

at least one of us is confirmed to be town

therefore it is not an inherently scummy trajectory

and therefore, me being town and having had that trajectory, i can understand how town!std could have had the same one. if std is town, he probably has the same experience

This logic doesn't pan out at all if you consider both of you took the "anyone but me" approach, which is universal to both alignments.

[Roden]

I'll respond when you guys actually talk to and question each other

[Roden]

I think Mena is town.

why?

After reading Mena's ISO and getting a feeling for the game state, I don't think Mena vs Elephant is SvS. Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario, which makes me think it's a genuine final reads list from a dying townie. I think their frustration with this Day phase is also genuine. Going back further, though I don't think STD is scum, I do think Mena's case on him came from a solvey mindset.

@Datisi:

Where's your head at? VCs aren't telling me anything about what you're thinking, you stuck to one coalition choice Day 1 and currently aren't voting anyone.

i have an iso >.> but basically, thinking mena is town for [meta reasons that seem to not vibe with anyone other than skitter], ari is town for the way she played d1. have been thinking skitter is most likely scum in the coalition for a while (but i've kinda liked her more recent posting i guess??? jury's still out), and getting increasingly nervous about irrel

outside the coalition, thinking fire is town but fuck if i know about the other three -- std is more likely to be town than the other two i guess but i am v low confidence on all of those

I actually did read your ISO, I just wanted an updated take since EoD is approaching and you've been fence sitting.

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum, and everyone here is competent enough to coach him to not flail with his reads/solves going into Day 2. Fire is null to me only because they didn't seem to have the spotlight at all so far. I agree with STD likely being town, but disagree with your Skitter scum read, consensus nominations tend to be town and nothing in her ISO sticks out as scummy to me.

I've noticed while skimming that a lot of people think there's at least one scum between you and Ari, and while I agree, I think it's odd that no one really seemed to push you two. It's too late in the day to do it now, but you two should've been leading wagons imo, that would've given everyone plenty of info seeing who would push who and if your wagons would naturally dissipate. If you were both town, I believe scum would see you two as the optimal push on Day 2, and if I'm right on NK15 being town then scum likely would've backed him when he scum cased the two of you. I just don't see how there could be zero momentum towards wagoning either of you if you're both town and part of the coalition.

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today, I just want to finish going through his ISO first. If I end up town reading him though then idk.

Oof, I finished going through Elephant's ISO then saw ten more pages crop up and that he replaced out. I came away with a town lean, and after catching up I think his replacement is town. Idk who Bloodhail is an alt of but I like their entrance, and us having similar reads after replacing in feels like a good sign that I'm on the right track.

VOTE: Datisi

Gonna go back and reply to some stuff.

quoting these two posts, again, for emphasis

this is still just really hard for me to see as town.

before bloodhail: vaguely says that there's probably 1 scum between datisi and ari, but wants to vote irrel (and the nk read is still probably tmi lol)

after bloodhail: says that irrel slot is now town, and is glad to see bloodhail agreeing with his reads (??), and votes datisi

that's just not a town progression. that's scum quickly trying to reposition after a replacement massively changes the gamestate

Actually I'll respond to this because the answer here is obvious and I already answered this before

Do you think town!me can 1v8 Datisi at the last 24 hours of the Day when there are already two leading wagons and everyone has already made it clear that they're terrified of hurting Datisi's feelings by voting him

[Roden]

Can anyone explain why they think I bus Datisi instead of just voting out Elephant and setting up Mena as the next mis-elim?

bc once bloodhail comes in with a scumread on datisi, datisi like almost always dies there? based on gamestate and how people were responding to him, even if he dies first datisi prob flips next, and you would want to be on that early

your trajectory was heading towards irrel until bloodhail showed up, and then you followed him onto datisi

Nah, Datisi lives without my vote there. Blood would've been at 4 votes at EoD if I voted there instead. I'm the only one who actually kept my vote on Datisi, without that momentum Blood just dies.

Also let's not pretend you all were itching to vote Datisi. You weren't. And if you think really think Datisi couldn't work his way back into being a town read then you're massively underestimating him. Especially since Mena literally always dies after an Elephant mis-elim, if you disagree then show the posts that were against that yesterday.

Y'all were absolutely terrified of voting Datisi yesterday and hurting his feelings if he actually flipped town. If that weren't true the leading wagons wouldn't have been Mena vs Elephant.

[Roden]

Show me a scum game of mine where my partner was town read and I was scum read and decided to game theow by bussing my partner despite them having a much higher chance of winning

[Roden]

viewtopic.php?t=87700&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Oh hey look, a game where I did the complete opposite and bussed myself to save my partner who was about to get eliminated, who then went on to win the game

[Roden]

I don't see the game that way

Go on.

me neither

in this setup you're never going to die before datisi so the counterexample isn't even relevant

let's say you elim bloodhail. nightkill, idk, me or std. you maaaybe can get a mena elim next, but people are going to remember the bloodhail scumread on datisi and will be itching for that. even if you manage it, then you nk another outside the coalition.

i don't think that datisi ever will outlast skitter/ari in that situation, and after he dies you have, what, you and nk left? after you explicitly saved datisi by being the deciding vote to elim bloodhail, silencing someone who was scumreading scum?

i just don't really think that game path looks very promising for you two as a scum team

Why would you or STD die first? NK's would be Skitter > STD.

I don't see how the example doesn't work. You're claiming I bussed Datisi, the example shows I'd save him. Do you seriously think it's impossible for me to...not, vote him? Is it impossible for me to vouch for him and just vote out Elephant? Even if Blood replaced in first, it wouldn't have been hard to force the elim through since the Day was almost over.

And if people doubted Datisi afterwards...so what? Blood's reads were only relevant because he flipped scum and stuck around for most of the game. If he dies sooner, why does anyone believe his reads so passionately that they wagon out Datisi?

Did anyone take anyone else's legacy reads into account? What about NK15, who correctly deduced that Datisi was scum? What about Mena, the first one to die?

Without any information, nobody has any reason to take Blood's legacy reads any more seriously than anyone else's. We all know this, and it's ridiculous to try to claim otherwise.

[Roden]

what reads specifically did bloodhail agree with you on?

I think all of them except NK15. I made my reads list before Blood replaced in.

[Roden]

I'll respond when you guys actually talk to and question each other

this also isn't town mentality. town would know that one of us is scum. you're just shading both of us equally as if we're teamed up against you

you're not trying to solve or even caring about if we're solving or not, you're just trying to make us feel like we're playing poorly without any consideration to the fact that, from your town pov, one of us is town

Maybe because one of you is playing poorly. Maybe I'm fucking frustrated that I played out of my fucking mind with almost perfect reads for the first in a very long time after a string of bad town games, and now I'm getting shit on for it. Maybe I'm mad that I offered to fucking die yesterday to avoid this stupid Elo and y'all said no and you're doing exactly what I said would happen.

[Roden]

what reads specifically did bloodhail agree with you on?

I think all of them except NK15. I made my reads list before Blood replaced in.

his top scumreads were datisi/mala/nk15.

your top scumread was him. you said that nk15 was obvtown. the only other suspicion you had mentioned was that you kinda thought there was 1 among datisi/ari. your mena townread was based on preflipping irrel as scum.

those aren't very similar reads

I didn't scum read Elephant or Blood, the fuck?

[Roden]

I think Mena is town.

why?

After reading Mena's ISO and getting a feeling for the game state, I don't think Mena vs Elephant is SvS. Mena switching from "kill STD" to "kill Rella -> Ari" after acknowledging he's the most likely elim today feels like a spew that would be harmful to his scum partner since I don't think it would be either of them in that scenario, which makes me think it's a genuine final reads list from a dying townie. I think their frustration with this Day phase is also genuine. Going back further, though I don't think STD is scum, I do think Mena's case on him came from a solvey mindset.

@Datisi:

Where's your head at? VCs aren't telling me anything about what you're thinking, you stuck to one coalition choice Day 1 and currently aren't voting anyone.

i have an iso >.> but basically, thinking mena is town for [meta reasons that seem to not vibe with anyone other than skitter], ari is town for the way she played d1. have been thinking skitter is most likely scum in the coalition for a while (but i've kinda liked her more recent posting i guess??? jury's still out), and getting increasingly nervous about irrel

outside the coalition, thinking fire is town but fuck if i know about the other three -- std is more likely to be town than the other two i guess but i am v low confidence on all of those

I actually did read your ISO, I just wanted an updated take since EoD is approaching and you've been fence sitting.

NK15 feels obvtown to me, he's too confident and tunneled to be scum, and everyone here is competent enough to coach him to not flail with his reads/solves going into Day 2. Fire is null to me only because they didn't seem to have the spotlight at all so far. I agree with STD likely being town, but disagree with your Skitter scum read, consensus nominations tend to be town and nothing in her ISO sticks out as scummy to me.

I've noticed while skimming that a lot of people think there's at least one scum between you and Ari, and while I agree, I think it's odd that no one really seemed to push you two. It's too late in the day to do it now, but you two should've been leading wagons imo, that would've given everyone plenty of info seeing who would push who and if your wagons would naturally dissipate. If you were both town, I believe scum would see you two as the optimal push on Day 2, and if I'm right on NK15 being town then scum likely would've backed him when he scum cased the two of you. I just don't see how there could be zero momentum towards wagoning either of you if you're both town and part of the coalition.

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today, I just want to finish going through his ISO first. If I end up town reading him though then idk.

Oof, I finished going through Elephant's ISO then saw ten more pages crop up and that he replaced out. I came away with a town lean, and after catching up I think his replacement is town. Idk who Bloodhail is an alt of but I like their entrance, and us having similar reads after replacing in feels like a good sign that I'm on the right track.

VOTE: Datisi

Gonna go back and reply to some stuff.

Where does this say I scum read Elephant or Blood

[Roden]

You said you were going to vote elephant

Quote it.

[Roden]

I think bloodhail pushed datisi with enough force to get it done

I think no one was scared of hurting datisis feelings and no one was not voting him for that reason

I think if town you thought it was datisi then saying you were going to vote elephant makes little sense

I don't think because you did it once is a good indicator of what you'd do in this situation

Yeah I don't believe that.

sorry I just don't think those things are alignment indicative for him

ii just can't see it that i way. i understand what you're saying but i don't think it's as bad for him as you say it is

but again you actually took the time to talk to me about it so i appreciate it it's datisi and skitter who have just ignored all attempts irrel and i had to make cases against mena and who the hell knows where NK15 is at

the fact that mena is being townread by both replacements is devastating because maybe i'm just wrong and i don't really know what to do from there

I'm willing to do Mena still if that's an option but I dunno if theres enough desire there and I just don't know if I'm just wrong even though I agree with your points

What's the count

I dunno I dunno I dunno

[Roden]

it's on this freaken page quoted by you and the previous page quoted by me

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today,

You're just, purposely cutting off the part where I said idk what to do if I town read him?

[Roden]

VOTE: Roden

im town

Oh thank fucking God

VOTE: STD

[Roden]

That makes so more sense why you've just been sniping this entire time

You're not bad you're just scum

[Roden]

No not you, STD

[Roden]

I was pissed off because I thought STD was just being an unreasonable jerk, he was just doing it on purpose to tilt me

Fire you genuinely don't know how much this eases my conscience

[Roden]

i just feel like i was being equal amounts of unreasonable fypov so im not sure why that frustration isn't extending to me

I felt like I was just getting ganged up on, but I had no idea who was taking advantage of the other

[Roden]

roden real talk if you're town can you please go over 343 and the surrounding context (irrel and std both voting a coalition without mala/datisi, but with std) and give me a plausible reason why datisi paired with std then starts shading irrel and std and pocketing me when i push on irrel?

I don't have much of a revelation there tbh, it's most likely just distancing in order to get at least one of them into the Coalition.

[Roden]

my interactions with datisi are not partnery. he spent time trying to drag me down and make my main suspicion, menalque, look good. datisi and mala/roden partnering makes more sense. i genuinely thought it was menalque and my progressions this game make sense. i followed my gut this game with menalque and when that didn't work out i tried listening to the town more, as evidenced by me going after ari listening to bloodhail. i think i've been an open book, and i'm a lot more reserved as scum. and as scum i take bloodhail to the end every time because he probably never votes me here.

Blood died because you thought I would tunnel Fire, and you shaded me when I showed suspicion towards you

[Roden]

If Datisi supposedly spent time dragging STD down, then why did he not show any intent in wanting to vote him out? Datisi only wanted Elephant and Skitter, and though he didn't want vote out Mena he didn't show any intent to block his elimination. Instead, both Datisi and STD enabled/supported the Elephant -> Mena chain mis-elim.

[Roden]

I put a hard block on ever voting out Skitter and Mena even though Datisi wanted Skitter and STD wanted Mena, and they both argued with me about it. I wanted Datisi out, and STD instead tried to shift the elim back onto Mena at the very end, and only voted Datisi when the Mena wagon failed and Blood town told by self voting.

[Roden]

wrong. i never was going to vote elephant

i can't do irrelephant without a really good case

the fact you have the same scum read as i still means you're either pocketing me hard for no reason because i have no influence in this gamestate or we're kindred town and we may be onto something here so i'm thinking it's the latter

i think irrel is town

i think i'm sticking to my guns on this one

e
v
i
d
e
n
c
e

You still supported the chain mis-elim. You never tried to shut it down.

[Roden]

VOTE: datisi

HEAL: Save the Dragons
HEAL: fireisreadsir
HEAL: skitter30

literally just copying irrelephant's tags here

HURT: all
HEAL: menalque
save the dragons
datisi
aristeia
irrelephant

i could do skitter in place of someone tho i might prefer that but this seems fine for now

or maybe i was secretly waiting for a vc to copy paste
HURT: all
HEAL: Menalque, Save the Dragons, Irrelephant11, skitter30, Datisi

HURT: all
HEAL: datisi
aristeia
skitter
save the dragons
irrelephant

STD went from fake voting Datisi to wanting him in the Coalition very abruptly.

[Roden]

If Datisi supposedly spent time dragging STD down, then why did he not show any intent in wanting to vote him out? Datisi only wanted Elephant and Skitter, and though he didn't want vote out Mena he didn't show any intent to block his elimination. Instead, both Datisi and STD enabled/supported the Elephant -> Mena chain mis-elim.

? elims happen in the coalition until we hit scum

I understand that. But what exactly was the point of the shade on STD then? Why would Datisi "drag him down" like STD claims, only to not ever be on his suspicion list? Why did STD want Datisi to be in the Coalition with him if Datisi suspected him?

[Roden]

Just realized both Datisi and STD wanted Skitter in the Coalition even though they "scum read" her...lol.

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

[Roden]

Just realized both Datisi and STD wanted Skitter in the Coalition even though they "scum read" her...lol.

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

i don't remember scumreading her at all this game

Spoiler:

i need to wrap my head around the ari/skitter thing soon

I mean 1195 is pretty convincing but i'd like to hear from skitter again when she gets back

i mean maybe i'm biased by knowing i'm town here but i still don't believe you could come to a townread on irrelephant and a scumread on me when we've had similar thoughts in the game similar stances on people and i think a similar progression of thought

but not talking about me, i just don't see what's so townie. like yes there's talk about ari/skitter and there's talk about irrelephant being town but what else is there? some questions? that's in his scumrange according to the game you linked which i still think is a poor example of meta that you're trying to pigeonhole into a good argument.

regarding ari and skitter i just don't see it dude 1) he could easily back out of it if needed 2) it's NAI to have reads on certain players for being "good" or "better" 3) i don't see how he's planning for the future see point 1 4) there's a slight chance that ari/skitter are a partner that they're trying to downplay and distance from 5) not doing something last game as scum isn't really a precursor to not doing it as scum in the future if he thinks ari will "play around" his tell of her so he's not telling us what it is certainly he knows how to change his own damn meta

i dunno maybe i'm just wrong and i'm looking in the wrong place??? but i don't think your case is as ironclad as you want to believe

well that's frustrating because i though i was pushing the game forward and taking charge and trying to lead the thread but it feels like because i wasn't online at certain times when people were talking to each other it just looks like i was behind and playing catch up

i don't know how to argue against my reads not being nuanced or "real" because they are real and i don't do a lot of nuance i don't think so that's kind of a playstyle thing i think

i think that it's menalque for reasons i've already outlined and i think you are a possible partner so it could be both of you. i need to go back to your posts and see if there's something there, i guess i owe you that but i don't know if i'll do that soon or not

i'm waiting for skitter to respond but i think ari's points are more accurate of what happened and i think skitter is not recognizing ari's contribution of trying to cede control to push a narrative that you and ari are scum. i don't know if that's true or not. i think i need to hear from skitter to see what she says. i see a world where both ari and skitter are correct in which they both tried to cede control to the other and fell because scum outside of them took advantage of that but i need to see more.

irrelephant i don't think is scum, if they are they tried to pocket me and considering no one is seeing the influence i've had on this thread i guess the question i have is why

maybe it's irrelephant or skitter or ari and i'm just lost UNVOTE: gonna think about it a sec

I don't want skitter to be scum, @aristeia @std @fire please determine if this is tvt or tvs so I can proceed accordingly

I can't blame skitter for finding posts manipulative (i don't know that they are but i can't blame her for being wary).

i dunno. i'm turned off by skitter wking mena but i'm trying to give it its due diligence in case i'm wrong here

[Roden]

Just realized both Datisi and STD wanted Skitter in the Coalition even though they "scum read" her...lol.

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

i don't remember scumreading her at all this game

Also answer the questions

[Roden]

If Datisi supposedly spent time dragging STD down, then why did he not show any intent in wanting to vote him out? Datisi only wanted Elephant and Skitter, and though he didn't want vote out Mena he didn't show any intent to block his elimination. Instead, both Datisi and STD enabled/supported the Elephant -> Mena chain mis-elim.

? elims happen in the coalition until we hit scum

I understand that. But what exactly was the point of the shade on STD then? Why would Datisi "drag him down" like STD claims, only to not ever be on his suspicion list? Why did STD want Datisi to be in the Coalition with him if Datisi suspected him?

irrel and std were townreading each other and had a winning coalition that they were pushing and both were fairly townread by people who weren't me. datisi needed to pull them apart or he would lose since mala wasn't going to get in. it wasn't really ever a suspicion, just trying to pull down the townreads. which is way less likely to come from partners, if they were partners i would expect legit suspicion because why not, datisi always dies first

They didn't have a winning Coalition though, STD wanted Datisi in it. And when pressured to vote he didn't want Datisi elim'd and instead wanted Mena gone.

Datisi never pulls Elephant and STD apart though because he's claiming he never scum read Elephant, and he already was voting Datisi into the Coalition early on.

[Roden]

Most of those are after the coalition phase if I remember correctly anyway so I cant answer

Just realized both Datisi and STD wanted Skitter in the Coalition even though they "scum read" her...lol.

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

i don't remember scumreading her at all this game

Also answer the questions

[Roden]

theyre also all after coalition failed lmao

Isn't that even worse? That STD votes in a Coalition Datisi doesn't apparently want, begins to hedge in Datisi's flavor, and ultimately only ends up with one "correct" read in scum reading me? But then refuses to vote me when I told him to yesterday?

[Roden]

roden can you explain what you were thinking at start of day today? you weren't very clear in where you were at

I was just mad that you guys voted Ari instead when I said vote me, and then started the day off with "so it's probably just Roden right" as if I hadn't tried to avoid that exact scenario.

[Roden]

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

I never really Sr her. I never didn't trust her. I never found her suspicious. So I wanted her in the coalition because I tr her.

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

[Roden]

roden can you explain what you were thinking at start of day today? you weren't very clear in where you were at

I was just mad that you guys voted Ari instead when I said vote me, and then started the day off with "so it's probably just Roden right" as if I hadn't tried to avoid that exact scenario.

you said you reread the game. what conclusions did you come to?

That either you were scum and STD was bad and stubborn, or you were town and scum!STD took advantage of my hesitance to scum read him after what happened in Control.

[Roden]

roden can you explain what you were thinking at start of day today? you weren't very clear in where you were at

I was just mad that you guys voted Ari instead when I said vote me, and then started the day off with "so it's probably just Roden right" as if I hadn't tried to avoid that exact scenario.

you said you reread the game. what conclusions did you come to?

That either you were scum and STD was bad and stubborn, or you were town and scum!STD took advantage of my hesitance to scum read him after what happened in Control.

those are indeed the two options. did you make any attempt to determine which was more likely during your reread?

I said it earlier, it was more likely to be you than STD, but STD kept saying really scummy shit today that gave me pause. It's why I suggested hammer testing you.

[Roden]

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

i don't really care about this line of questioning at all btw so unless you can convince me that it's relevant (unlikely), feel free to stop!

Why?

[Roden]

Doesn't datisi basically have skitter in his coalition for most of the coalition phase? What are you asking?

Answer the question.

[Roden]

I think I'm going to end up voting Elephant today,

VOTE: Roden

STD why was this enough to convince you I was scum?

[Roden]

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

i don't really care about this line of questioning at all btw so unless you can convince me that it's relevant (unlikely), feel free to stop!

Why?

To add to this I don't really care at all if my questions annoy you, if you want to vote me because you got annoyed then go ahead.

[Roden]

What question

Fire how can you possibly think this is town lmao

[Roden]

I said it earlier, it was more likely to be you than STD, but STD kept saying really scummy shit today that gave me pause. It's why I suggested hammer testing you.

and why did you think it was more likely to be me?

Because I scum read you early on, you were a null slot that I went back and forth on over the game. Yesterday I wasn't so sure anymore because I didn't think it was you or Ari, and if I was right then ELo would likely be a town loss and offered to get voted out then. I gave reasons earlier for what made me think why you could be town, but STD seemed to wrong with all of his reads to actually be scum so I thought he had to be town. I town read Ari more than you as well, you were just the PoE.

[Roden]

Everything you did today convinced me you were scum I just got tired of it. I looked at fires iso and thought he looked town and I was right

You literally said you weren't going to tunnel me though and that's all you did today. When I called you out on it you just doubled down.

[Roden]

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

i don't really care about this line of questioning at all btw so unless you can convince me that it's relevant (unlikely), feel free to stop!

Why?

To add to this I don't really care at all if my questions annoy you, if you want to vote me because you got annoyed then go ahead.

because i don't think you are presenting a very accurate view of the game and i don't think that what you're talking about is very relevant to std's alignment

You don't think STD blatantly trying to get Datisi into the Coalition and then voting to save him is relevant? Why is that townie but me voting to elim Datisi is scummy?

[Roden]

Not everything is a fucking bus! Maybe I just had a good read and STD tried to save his partner! Why is that so impossible!?

[Roden]

What question

Fire how can you possibly think this is town lmao

i don't know what the question is either

STD why did you want Skitter in the Coalition? You didn't trust her. You did trust Datisi though, so why try to vote in a player that you and your town read found suspicious?

I never really Sr her. I never didn't trust her. I never found her suspicious. So I wanted her in the coalition because I tr her.

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

[Roden]

I said it earlier, it was more likely to be you than STD, but STD kept saying really scummy shit today that gave me pause. It's why I suggested hammer testing you.

and why did you think it was more likely to be me?

Because I scum read you early on, you were a null slot that I went back and forth on over the game. Yesterday I wasn't so sure anymore because I didn't think it was you or Ari, and if I was right then ELo would likely be a town loss and offered to get voted out then. I gave reasons earlier for what made me think why you could be town, but STD seemed to wrong with all of his reads to actually be scum so I thought he had to be town. I town read Ari more than you as well, you were just the PoE.

i want to hear the reasons you had for why you thought i was more likely. i know that im conftown now but it wasn't very long ago, you should be able to remember

the best i have so far is that i was poe scum because:
- std's reads were too wrong for him to be scum

is that all? please expand if there is more to it.

That's really all there was to it. The PoE was only because everyone else was townier. NK15 only got added later because I figured if I was wrong about a read, it was that one.

[Roden]

If you trusted Skitter and you trusted Datisi, why didn't that ping you when they scum read each other? Why didn't you try to have a stake in their argument? If you thought they were TvT then why did you hedge on Skitter after the Coalition failed?

i don't really care about this line of questioning at all btw so unless you can convince me that it's relevant (unlikely), feel free to stop!

Why?

To add to this I don't really care at all if my questions annoy you, if you want to vote me because you got annoyed then go ahead.

because i don't think you are presenting a very accurate view of the game and i don't think that what you're talking about is very relevant to std's alignment

You don't think STD blatantly trying to get Datisi into the Coalition and then voting to save him is relevant? Why is that townie but me voting to elim Datisi is scummy?

you've moved the goalposts so many times in this conversation and it was based on a faulty premise originally so it's kinda impossible to even know what you're talking or asking about at this point

No, I didn't. I'm literally trying to get everything out that I'm thinking.

[Roden]

I said it earlier, it was more likely to be you than STD, but STD kept saying really scummy shit today that gave me pause. It's why I suggested hammer testing you.

and why did you think it was more likely to be me?

Because I scum read you early on, you were a null slot that I went back and forth on over the game. Yesterday I wasn't so sure anymore because I didn't think it was you or Ari, and if I was right then ELo would likely be a town loss and offered to get voted out then. I gave reasons earlier for what made me think why you could be town, but STD seemed to wrong with all of his reads to actually be scum so I thought he had to be town. I town read Ari more than you as well, you were just the PoE.

i want to hear the reasons you had for why you thought i was more likely. i know that im conftown now but it wasn't very long ago, you should be able to remember

the best i have so far is that i was poe scum because:
- std's reads were too wrong for him to be scum

is that all? please expand if there is more to it.

That's really all there was to it. The PoE was only because everyone else was townier. NK15 only got added later because I figured if I was wrong about a read, it was that one.

i have a very hard time not just treating this as a scumclaim

How?

[Roden]

I don't really see how I tried to save datisi that's not how I remember my vote going

sorry I just don't think those things are alignment indicative for him

ii just can't see it that i way. i understand what you're saying but i don't think it's as bad for him as you say it is

but again you actually took the time to talk to me about it so i appreciate it it's datisi and skitter who have just ignored all attempts irrel and i had to make cases against mena and who the hell knows where NK15 is at

the fact that mena is being townread by both replacements is devastating because maybe i'm just wrong and i don't really know what to do from there

I'm willing to do Mena still if that's an option but I dunno if theres enough desire there and I just don't know if I'm just wrong even though I agree with your points

What's the count

I dunno I dunno I dunno

[Roden]

[2] Datisi: Roden, Aristeia

I like all of you guys I'm having fun let's keep having fun

VOTE: datisi I dunno what to do but I think this makes the most sense if we are not doing mena

Thank you, my fucking point. you only voted Datisi when you had no options left and you couldn't save him.

I pushed Datisi, you didn't.

[Roden]

I said it earlier, it was more likely to be you than STD, but STD kept saying really scummy shit today that gave me pause. It's why I suggested hammer testing you.

and why did you think it was more likely to be me?

Because I scum read you early on, you were a null slot that I went back and forth on over the game. Yesterday I wasn't so sure anymore because I didn't think it was you or Ari, and if I was right then ELo would likely be a town loss and offered to get voted out then. I gave reasons earlier for what made me think why you could be town, but STD seemed to wrong with all of his reads to actually be scum so I thought he had to be town. I town read Ari more than you as well, you were just the PoE.

i want to hear the reasons you had for why you thought i was more likely. i know that im conftown now but it wasn't very long ago, you should be able to remember

the best i have so far is that i was poe scum because:
- std's reads were too wrong for him to be scum

is that all? please expand if there is more to it.

That's really all there was to it. The PoE was only because everyone else was townier. NK15 only got added later because I figured if I was wrong about a read, it was that one.

i have a very hard time not just treating this as a scumclaim

How?

because your entire reasoning heading into elo for which slot was scum is that one of them had too many bad reads and therefore had to be town? ive read your games now, you're not that bad at town

You're right, I'm not. That's why I voted out scum.

But no I guess you think my master scum plan was to throw the game by voting out my town read scum partner than claiming scum

[Roden]

I don't think I had no options left ari and mena just got into a huge fight and I pushed datisi by voting him instead of...you know...not doing that which is what I would have done if I were partners with him

Ari and Mena were not going, we know this and went over. Blood hard stopped eliminations there by self voting. You literally had no choice.

[Roden]

here you talk about how town will lose in elo if they play impulsively:

Subject: Mini Theme 2259: Superfight Mafia!

Oh, and to reiterate for you, Roden-

Throwing the fight is absolutely not against the spirit of the game. There's no obligation to pick the strongest thing you can think of, or even something that you think could win. I am not telling you what to pick. Rather, from a perspective of the game of mafia, if you think your death would be beneficial to town then you should try to lose the fight. I am telling you, objectively, your

death is beneficial to town regardless of your alignment.

Please go to whatever lengths you can to ensure you die tonight.

If you are town, and you win the fight, we will literally lose the game as a result.

Don't see how we lose. If we elim scum today and it does turn out to be Faerie, I'm likely fighting you tonight if you're town. If I win the fight, you can't tunnel me in ELo, and instead I'm going into ELo with Flea at the very least, who doesn't scum read me. Worst case scenario, ELo is Flea/Dwlee/me and Dwlee is town and death tunnels me, and scum!Flea just quick hammers once Dwlee votes.

Basically we only lose if town plays impulsively, which I don't expect anyone here to do.

why were you encouraging me and std to play impulsively at start of day, and criticizing us for taking our time and rereading? you were acting like you weren't even aware of that as a concept, but here you clearly are.

I criticized you two for sniping at me and saying it's just me and doing literally nothing else. I wanted scum to vote so we can just get to the part where we have a conftown, because I know town won't actually vote there because they don't actually know who's scum.

[Roden]

You're right, I'm not. That's why I voted out scum.

But no I guess you think my master scum plan was to throw the game by voting out my town read scum partner than claiming scum

this is entirely irrelevant to my point. all three of us voted out scum. you can stop playing that card now.

Why do I keep having to repeat that I came into the game with fresh reads that changed the game state

I'm so fucking over this

[Roden]

Fire I seriously don't understand why you think I would give an honest answer that sounds scummy and will probably piss you off instead of just telling you what you want to hear if I'm actually scum

You're even reading my games right now, have you seen me do that?

[Roden]

You're right, I'm not. That's why I voted out scum.

But no I guess you think my master scum plan was to throw the game by voting out my town read scum partner than claiming scum

this is entirely irrelevant to my point. all three of us voted out scum. you can stop playing that card now.

Why do I keep having to repeat that I came into the game with fresh reads that changed the game state

I'm so fucking over this

your reads did not change the game state. you made no push on datisi and were happy to continue the game state by voting irrel. bloodhail's reads changed the gamestate, and you followed him.

This is just, blatantly false. Elephant and Mena were set up to die. Skitter was getting set up to go next. I halted that momentum.

[Roden]

std has done far more game analysis and consideration of reasoning for who is scum than you this day so i wouldn't recommend playing the "doing literally nothing else" card either, because you lose that one too

All he said was "idk it's probably Roden" over and over and occasionally sniping at me. He barely made any attempts to read either of us.

[Roden]

Fire I seriously don't understand why you think I would give an honest answer that sounds scummy and will probably piss you off instead of just telling you what you want to hear if I'm actually scum

You're even reading my games right now, have you seen me do that?

i haven't seen you do what you're claiming to have done as town, either

What

[Roden]

Excuse me

[Roden]

I'm done

Fucking whatever

I literally did everything I could and you just want to tunnel and ignore every point I've made and pretend they don't exist

If you want to believe my only option is bussing and STD just made a good vote despite having literally zero projection towards wanting to vote out Datisi, then fine. I can't convince you if you're that far gone.

I take zero responsibility for this town loss

I fucking worked my ass off just to get shat on all game

[Roden]

I seriously just don't understand it