Mewbie 2094 -- GAME OVER

[syugar]

ebwop: elim*, freaking L word

[Lukewarm]

And like, if he really believed everything that he said in 1317 then what was he doing when he made this comment

luke looks less partnered with gm the more i reread and talked with him today, largely for reasons i already believed in yesterday and just threw aside, i didn't really have any logical edge against him when we were arguing and his points related to yesterday's vote make sense

So, he was absolutely convinced that I was scum. Then decided that I was town. Then went back to being convinced I was scum. Both of the changes happened while I was completely out of the thread.

What? This actually

is

flailing: it's not true. I didn't even say that I currently believed you were the best vote, I'm just restating myself more clearly and engaging with Bella to try and show my thought process and understand what she thinks about it, how it changes her read about you in any way, and if-not-why-not. I rephrased my argument so that Bella could engage with it: I said nothing about continuing on to vote you (yet).

VOTE: Unvote

Here's what I'm going to do.

I believe I was a bit inarticulate about the read you just referenced on Luke. When I get home, I'll rehash it in more detail and we can talk through it.

This is

another

case of you misrepresenting me; you realize I haven't even voted you yet?

Are you seriously going to say that you wrote all of 1317, and then it is wrong for me to think your flip flopped back to being really sure that I was scum?

You literally went from saying "luke looks less partnered with gm the more i reread and talked with him today, largely for reasons i already believed in yesterday and just threw aside, i didn't really have any logical edge against him when we were arguing and his points related to yesterday's vote make sense" to making the longest scum case you have made all game.

I don't care if you didn't you flat out say thatyou were convinced, or whether your vote moved with the case - the point still stands.

[Lukewarm]

It's a crack in your game that doesn't line up with your perceived skill level or process, it feels like guttural and reactive pure defense or just a throwaway reaction used to force the impression of a progression on the table. It's a type of loquacious empty-headedness that doesn't fit into the rest of your game.

I can't believe that you believe this. That just because I lay in bed at night and think about games, that I don't also make posts in the moment, as I'm reading, that are less thought out.

[syugar]

Are you seriously going to say that you wrote all of 1317, and then it is wrong for me to think your flip flopped back to being really sure that I was scum?

You literally went from saying "luke looks less partnered with gm the more i reread and talked with him today, largely for reasons i already believed in yesterday and just threw aside, i didn't really have any logical edge against him when we were arguing and his points related to yesterday's vote make sense" to making the longest scum case you have made all game.

I don't care if you didn't you flat out say thatyou were convinced, or whether your vote moved with the case - the point still stands.

Yes, I think it's kind of obvious that I'm trying to give Bella something good to engage with so I can come to understand her thoughts better if you read the conversation leading up to that. She said my points were scummy and didn't make sense, I realized this was my fault, and I needed to remedy that. This is just in line with the trend of you choosing to misrepresent my actions, even continuing into this post where you choose to be combative rather than acknowledge what I'm actually doing which has been plainly stated in the thread multiple times and reinforced with a quote. You can keep going like this, you're just digging your own hole deeper.

[Lukewarm]

Why haven't I? It doesn't look like you were genuinely interested in getting an answer to that question, because you dropped it as soon as gave an answer you deem as unsatisfactory. You still don't. This shows something kind of impure about your approach: this clearly bothers you, but instead of browbeating me for an answer you're just interested in reframing and assuming the meaning of these posts. You're totally satisfied to hang me with my own words without first going through the social interactions to understand what my own words even are.

And again, this is not aligned with what I have done this game. You are acting like I did not ask you multiple follow up questions trying to figure out how you could have landed on that conclusion genuinely, and could not get an answer from you

otoh i just skimmed a towngame of urs and didnt see any posts close to looking like this

Like this seems to be the only thing that would have changed to push your read from one way to the other.

I need you to put some more words to this.

What game did you read in that time? What about that post are you saying never existed in that game?

the disconnect between some of your statements today and your supposedly very insightful townread on catboi is giving me whiplash

What does this even mean.

I am scum because I have a good reason to town read catboi, who you also think is town?

I am scum because I thought that scum would no kill here?

You somehow think that me town reading catboi but thinking scum might no kill are somehow incompatible from a town pov?

otoh i just skimmed a towngame of urs and didnt see any posts close to looking like this

Like this seems to be the only thing that would have changed to push your read from one way to the other.

I need you to put some more words to this.

What game did you read in that time? What about that post are you saying never existed in that game?

I still want answers to these questions

given what you just said, does this mean that you don't think that I would have "insightful town reads" as town? Or that I would have them as scum?

Specifically what game did you read.

What about that post were you looking for in that game that you say you didnt see?

[syugar]

I can't believe that you believe this. That just because I lay in bed at night and think about games, that I don't also make posts in the moment, as I'm reading, that are less thought out.

In my mind, there's a difference between posts that are less thought out and just entertaining and posting thoughts that are clearly absurd. Does that make sense?

Go look at any of my gut reactions to any post in this thread as a contrast.

[Lukewarm]

Bluntly, you're misrepresenting what I said, again. I said I "skimmed a towngame of yours and didn't see any posts close to this".

You're incorrectly assuming that that means "Luke just doesn't make detailed, nuanced cases". It never crossed your mind to ask me what I meant by that.

Ditto for this

[Lukewarm]

Bluntly, you're misrepresenting what I said, again. I said I "skimmed a towngame of yours and didn't see any posts close to this".

You're incorrectly assuming that that means "Luke just doesn't make detailed, nuanced cases". It never crossed your mind to ask me what I meant by that.

Ditto for this

[Lukewarm]

Yes, I think it's kind of obvious that I'm trying to give Bella something good to engage with so I can come to understand her thoughts better if you read the conversation leading up to that.

This feels really really like you are saying

"Yes I made a giant case against you, calling you scum in very certain terms, and trying to get another player to see why I think you are scummy... but I didn't vote you, so why are you acting like I was scum reading you so hard when I wrote it?"

Which is ridiculous.

[syugar]

Bluntly, you're misrepresenting what I said, again. I said I "skimmed a towngame of yours and didn't see any posts close to this".

You're incorrectly assuming that that means "Luke just doesn't make detailed, nuanced cases". It never crossed your mind to ask me what I meant by that.

Ditto for this

That's my bad. The interaction slipped my mind. I take back what I said.

[syugar]

Yes, I think it's kind of obvious that I'm trying to give Bella something good to engage with so I can come to understand her thoughts better if you read the conversation leading up to that.

This feels really really like you are saying

"Yes I made a giant case against you, calling you scum in very certain terms, and trying to get another player to see why I think you are scummy... but I didn't vote you, so why are you acting like I was scum reading you so hard when I wrote it?"

Which is ridiculous.

I'm still torn between who I want to vote today. I can't really help you if you find that unbelievable.

[syugar]

If I thought that content was a killshot, I'd have never even moved my vote to Bella in the first place. It's basically analogous to what I was thinking when I looked at all of your reads today, just rephrased with stuff added in in more detail that I didn't bother saying earlier due to a lack of interest.

[syugar]

I'm willing to accept that a lot of your issues with me are my fault; I didn't open this day very well because I was and still am very frustrated and tired of this game. I flaked all of the other signups I've made and this is going to be my last one for a while. Are you willing to accept that I didn't speak clearly and entertain moving off of me today? You don't seem super collaborative.

[syugar]

Going to try going back to bed, will be on later

[Lukewarm]

Your reason for scum reading me for my cases appears to shift to what ever suits your purpose in each sentence.

Like in the same post you both make this argument as to why I am scum:

It's a crack in your game that doesn't line up with your perceived skill level or process, it feels like guttural and reactive pure defense or just a throwaway reaction used to force the impression of a progression on the table. It's a type of loquacious empty-headedness that doesn't fit into the rest of your game.

And then say that it was wrong of me to think that this was the real reason:

You're incorrectly assuming that that means "Luke just doesn't make detailed, nuanced cases".

But then, when you are looking at the posts from the other game, this is what you said.

The third read is something that you couldn't even explain, which is pretty much completely divorced from your case in this game. You had no problem getting into the details. But, again, this case doesn't assume any information that isn't available to the public.

Like, in one line the issue is that I had a " guttural and reactive pure defense" -- but when you look at a case I made, where it was almost purely based in omgus'ing catboi to the point that I was really struggling to word it in any way that people would not just dismiss it as omgus, you just dismiss it as unrelated because this game I had detail in my town case of catboi.

How could you not see that there, if you really believed that to be the issue...

[syugar]

Like, in one line the issue is that I had a " guttural and reactive pure defense" -- but when you look at a case I made, where it was almost purely based in omgus'ing catboi to the point that I was really struggling to word it in any way that people would not just dismiss it as omgus, you just dismiss it as unrelated because this game I had detail in my town case of catboi.

How could you not see that there, if you really believed that to be the issue...

I thought that the point of you posting those cases was to prove that you make detailed, nuanced cases. I am responding with how it's dissimilar to your towncase on catboi this game, because that's the context in which you provided it.

If you want to compare your gutted omgus on catboi this game to your omgus in catboi in that other game, they're still very different. You have more reasons beyond catboi "knowing there would be a NK and having something ready". In that game, you post broadly about the thread state and how he is positioning strategically, etc. So I don't understand how these interpretations should some sort of inconsistency in my thought process.

[syugar]

I legitimately don't understand what I'm supposed to be seeing there, after rereading what you just posted three times. These things are unrelated to the point of feeling schizophrenic.

[Lukewarm]

What's different about your read on catboi in this game? You assume information and team interactions that aren't available to the public, and it just isn't possible you have a good enough read on scum's supposed QT this game to satisfactorily make that leap without having extra questions or being unsure. You are gambling the game on content that you assume would exist if they were a scumteam but you are assuming does not exist because they disagreed on a mechanical play. If you can't see how this is much more of a reach than these three reads and is just substantively different, I'm not sure what to say.

And then, you are arguing this, when that is literally the back bone of the case made here:

He said it wasn't a townie thought process that I was thinking about the way that the scum team might be working together, here is a partner read built around what I perceived to be the scum plan at the time.

Spoiler:

To me, option 1 looks like a scum team that has some semblance of a plan. Option 2 looks like a scum team that is all pulling in completely opposite directions.

I don't have a ton of experience with Titus, but from what I have seen, I feel like she would have had some semblance of a plan.

I would go as far as to say that there is already evidence this game that Titus was trying to coordinate plans in the scum chat, when you look at Day 0 and see Moon Cancer, Day 0, jumping on to the Saber 4 Master campaign when Titus thought she could win the master. Then Moon doing a full 180, and calling Saber scum once Titus realized she had lost the master (and that she would probably need to bus if she wanted to regain a footing in the game)

---------------

So yeah, foreigner being scum makes more sense to me.

I would no longer say that scum!Avenger is impossible, but would need to see more evidence for it -- such as foreigner flipping town in order to give me any evidence that a counter wagon was being made by the scum team

[/spoiler]

[syugar]

And then, you are arguing this, when that is literally the back bone of the case made here:

He said it wasn't a townie thought process that I was thinking about the way that the scum team might be working together, here is a partner read built around what I perceived to be the scum plan at the time.

Spoiler:

To me, option 1 looks like a scum team that has some semblance of a plan. Option 2 looks like a scum team that is all pulling in completely opposite directions.

I don't have a ton of experience with Titus, but from what I have seen, I feel like she would have had some semblance of a plan.

I would go as far as to say that there is already evidence this game that Titus was trying to coordinate plans in the scum chat, when you look at Day 0 and see Moon Cancer, Day 0, jumping on to the Saber 4 Master campaign when Titus thought she could win the master. Then Moon doing a full 180, and calling Saber scum once Titus realized she had lost the master (and that she would probably need to bus if she wanted to regain a footing in the game)

---------------

So yeah, foreigner being scum makes more sense to me.

I would no longer say that scum!Avenger is impossible, but would need to see more evidence for it -- such as foreigner flipping town in order to give me any evidence that a counter wagon was being made by the scum team

[/spoiler]

It's difficult to tell, because I don't understand what you're saying in that post. It looks like you're playing Secret Hitler or something, not mafia. Do you have a different example that wouldn't require me reading a game for 10 to 20 minutes?

[Lukewarm]

I legitimately don't understand what I'm supposed to be seeing there, after rereading what you just posted three times. These things are unrelated to the point of feeling schizophrenic.

I am also feeling like we are talking different languages.

[Lukewarm]

I think I am just gonna walk away for the night. Otherwise I feel like I am just gonna flood this thread to the point of it being unreadable

[syugar]

I legitimately don't understand what I'm supposed to be seeing there, after rereading what you just posted three times. These things are unrelated to the point of feeling schizophrenic.

I am also feeling like we are talking different languages.

No, it's more the fact that you didn't make any sense in 1364. I'm confident you're holding the L on that one.

[syugar]

I think I am just gonna walk away for the night. Otherwise I feel like I am just gonna flood this thread to the point of it being unreadable

Okay, see you later

[Lukewarm]

To me, option 1 looks like a scum team that has some semblance of a plan. Option 2 looks like a scum team that is all pulling in completely opposite directions.

I don't have a ton of experience with Titus, but from what I have seen, I feel like she would have had some semblance of a plan.

I would go as far as to say that there is already evidence this game that Titus was trying to coordinate plans in the scum chat

Like how would that scum team have gotten there? Did they not talk at all? This doesn't match what I've seen of catboi in scum chats - when I read his scum chat for fgo, I felt like there was a lot of collaboration and suggestions to his partners.

He argued for it too much if he didn't actually want it to happen, and GM argued against it too hard if they actually did want it to happen

Is it a scum team that thought the mass claim would help them? GM's play makes no sense
Was it a scum team that thought the mass claim would hurt them? Catbois play makes no sense

If you can't read these two back to back, and see that this is just one of the ways that I think about games semetimes, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm gonna walk away now and let other people weigh in

[syugar]

If you can't read these two back to back, and see that this is just one of the ways that I think about games semetimes, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm gonna walk away now and let other people weigh in

I'm open to believing that (remember, I unvoted you and voted for Bella), but what you quoted doesn't do a good job on convincing me because I just don't understand and don't see the similarities. You're talking about the scum team possibly teaming up to go for something called Blade Master or something, which I don't know what the fuck it is and may be super important, and comparing it to this overextrapolated case based on the idea of a massclaim which was ultimately irrelevant in the grand scheme of the game. Even if I were to buy that the complexity of the catboi case were typical of your towngame, it doesn't really reassure me on how worryingly different the depth of your reads are here, to the point where it feels like you're underanalyzing and not super trying to empathize with all of the possible angles from everyone else and going the extra mile for catboi for reasons I don't get. I don't even think you have considered the idea that I may be town here during our entire conversation in the last few hours.