Iceman Modeth - Mini 688 (GAME OVER!!!)


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Post Post #325 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:42 pm

Post by mrfixij »

Alright folks, I just showed up, and I'll take the time to read through the thread. Lots of familiar faces already, I'm getting a really good meta on some of you now. When I get caught up, I'll contribute.

VOTE COUNT:

vollkan - 4: Xtoxm, orangepenguin, Riceballtail, mrfixij
G-Force - 1: curiouskarmadog
orangepenguin - 1: babygirl86
PyroDwarf - 1: bionicchop2
mrfixij - 1: G-Force

Not voting: Rhinox, Scheherazade, PyroDwarf, Erratus Apathos

7 votes will lynch.
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Post Post #326 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:51 pm

Post by Riceballtail »

viewtopic.php?t=8148

Game of which I was referencing. I happened to be on her team, and thought she was really hurting us when she had that outburst.
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Post Post #327 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:21 pm

Post by mrfixij »

Alright, as of now I can really get behind a bg/vollkan lynch.

I'm really not liking the mason claim, but I think vollkan is a higher priority right now, ESPECIALLY considering the meta we now have on BG.

Rhinox I've noticed did some speculating on the setup of the game, which is something I never advocate. Any suspicion I would have on him would be based solely on policy though, which I'm trying to cut down on after being called out for it in several other games.

There's an exchange around post 251 - 253 which suggests a very moderate chance of a pairing between Gforce and BionicChop. I think I'm just reaching here, but I'm never one to keep suspicions to myself.

This was all just on a very brief read-through. I took a few notes as to areas I want to read more in-depth, and will post additional thoughts once I get more time to.
Also answer to 'e, it, scumbag, 'ey you!, and his royal towniness.
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Post Post #328 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:07 pm

Post by bionicchop2 »

for sure
unvote:pyro ; vote:vollkan
.

Obviously you will be given a chance to say what you can to try to salvage the day for yourself. 2 links of examples where she quit as scum when there was heat put on her is pretty damning.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #329 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:39 pm

Post by vollkan »

bionicchop2 wrote: for sure unvote:pyro ; vote:vollkan.

Obviously you will be given a chance to say what you can to try to salvage the day for yourself. 2 links of examples where she quit as scum when there was heat put on her is pretty damning.



I am reading now, but I realise based on what people are saying that babygirl is under serious suspicion for quitting when under heat (which suggests she has committed other grounds for suspicion as well).

Just on her quitting:
I notice from reading her posts that she says her mother was in hospital. Is this, or similar sorts of justifications, also part of her meta for quitting as scum? I wouldn't expect any of you to take her justification without a grain of salt (I'd be completely sceptical myself in your positions), but I would argue that, if it is atypical of her, that might be a cause for some hesitation in condemning based on her lackluster play.
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Post Post #330 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:08 pm

Post by vollkan »

Okay, I am going to try something new this game. Some of you will probably know my % ranking system (I explain it below). I will put down point increases within my read, to make my reasoning and suspicion bases perfectly clear. Experimental, but I want to see if it helps. + means somebody has increased in scumminess to me, whereas minus means they look more townie (and the number shows the relative extent of the jump)

Vollkan's Read of Game

14: Right of the bat, I find it interesting that Shez would pick Juls, a newbie, for his question. Obviously, Shez joined later than Juls, but common sense would say that a less experienced player, town or scum, would be more likely to screw up an answer to such a question as Shez asks here. See my comments on post 18 for more on this. (Shez+1)
18: He now criticises her defensiveness. For starters, defensiveness is not a scumtell - and I challenge anybody who thinks it is to explain why - but also because her response is entirely reasonable; why indeed did Shez single her out? (Shez+2)
19: Not sure I understand OP's voting logic here. @OP: What link was there between Shez showing knowledge (presumably you mean of tricky play) and him being scum?
21: Without explanation, X says he thinks Juls' answer is scummy. (X+1)
22: Shez is right in his reply to OP, knowledge of play has no link to scumminess. I don't like his casting of aspersions on Juls for her saying she is generally scummy - again, she's a newbie (and her play here reinforces that) and there is nothing inherently wrong with admitting that one often appears scummy (in fact, it's probably a good thing to make people aware of) (Shez+1)
24: ugh...I don't like this post by G-Force. There is nothing wrong with aggression and there is nothing scummy about voting early (or, if there is, you don't explain it). But saying "reluctant to commit to an early vote" sounds rhetorically powerful, despite being meaningless. (G+2)
25: Yay for X's criticism of G's poor logic (X-1)
33: Ugh...panamon uses inconsistency with an ongoing game to justify a vote on Shez. This isn't scummy (nor is the alleged inconsistency, divorced of all context) but it terrible form.
35: Babygirl is wrong on Shez - his behaviour is scummy - but right that Juls is "just gameplay" - a nulltell
36: Shez pulls an "if I were scum" *vomit* (but I will be lenient since he is a newbie...but still...ugh). His justification for choosing juls ("she seemed interested in bantering with other players") is very weak.
38: CKD makes sense on the "if I were scum" (Good to play with you again, CKD)
43: Interesting. Rhinox's first post is big but only deals with the above "if I were scum" issue which, since it is pure theory, I don't want to go into. However, he makes no comment on anything else that actually is relevant. This raises the concern that he is avoiding controversy, but I'll wait and see for more evidence before making judgment.
46: Unexplained vote by Erratus. I will wait and see if he gives some explanation.
49: Juls casts an ironic vote for X, who defended reasonless voting.

==I have study to do, so I will leave things there for the time being. These are my rankings thus far:

Rankings

(0 = confirmed town, 100 = confirmed scum, 50 = neutral OR insufficient info)
2. curiouskarmadog - 50
3. Erratus Apathos - 50
4. G-Force - 52
5. mrfixij - 50
6. orangepenguin - 50
7. bionicchop2 - 50
8. PyroDwarf - 50
9. Rhinox - 50
10. Riceballtai - 50
11. Scheherazade - 54
12. Xtoxm - 50
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Post Post #331 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:56 pm

Post by Erratus Apathos »

Vote: vollkan

What RBT and Juls said.

That's L-1.
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Post Post #332 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:38 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Sorry it had to be like this, Volkan. I'd have rathered just lynch BG without a replacement than have to have a replacement go through this.
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Post Post #333 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:17 am

Post by Rhinox »

mrfixij wrote:Rhinox I've noticed did some speculating on the setup of the game, which is something I never advocate. Any suspicion I would have on him would be based solely on policy though, which I'm trying to cut down on after being called out for it in several other games.
Um... please point out where I speculated on the setup... unless you consider investigating the idea that orange could be an sk - which I don't feel is out of line considering his claim - I don't believe I have. Is there a reason you want to misrepresent me? Is there a reason we shouldn't consider the fact that orange might not be able to prove his role (which means he could very well be an sk and we'd never know)?
volkan wrote: 43: Interesting. Rhinox's first post is big but only deals with the above "if I were scum" issue which, since it is pure theory, I don't want to go into. However,
he makes no comment on anything else that actually is relevant.
This raises the concern that he is avoiding controversy, but I'll wait and see for more evidence before making judgment.
The only issue that was relevant at the time was sche's "if I were scum" comment. It led to the bandwagon being built up on sche.
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Post Post #334 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:25 am

Post by vollkan »

Okay, I just had a look at RBT's linked game. I want to nip this little babygirl issue in the bud before I proceed with my reread - since it is the pre-eminent issue right now and I feel up to speed on it.

Firstly, have a look over babygirl's post history on the site Here for your convenience. I'll be brutally honest and say she is a uniformly poor player. A brief skim shows she rarely posts more than two lines at a time, and what she does post is far from being of even passable quality. That's a material fact to be borne in mind here - BG is bad all the time.

Now, let's have a look at Amish mafia (where BG was a SK). Here are all her posts. By post #3, she is apologising for not keeping up. This isn't scummy - it's sheer laziness. She posts effectively nothing all game, then gets pissed off and replaces out. Now, something else that should be of interest to all of you is the votecount at that point in time:
Mod from Amish wrote: Mellowed Man: babygirl86, riceballtail, Celebloki, Mr. Incrediball
riceballtail: Surye
Alabaska J: Marmalade, evilgorrilaz, Mellowed Man, Battle Mage
Evilgorrilaz: Alabaska J
Battle Mage: The Fonz


Not voting: Killa Seven, nswhorse, Inquisitor JL, Rigel, DizzyIzzyB13, q21
Zounds! Not a single vote on BG. In fact, we even get this little exchange just before she replaces out:
MellowedMan wrote:
BG wrote: A) you must not know how to read because I've explained my actions numerous times. and B) I'm not gonna say this is right, but I'm definately not the only person not posting here so dont even go there. I have a life outside of mafia and if my amount of posting isn't up to your standards, deal with it. I'm not changing my lifestyle to get a vote taken off of me.
Jesus Christ. That same attitude, and you're not even under any pressure! I hate your playstyle
Now, one player than suggested, as has essentially been done here, that:
Dizzy wrote: Classic "scum giving up after failing to lurk to victory".
More on the incorrectness of that later.

For now, we turn to Family Guy Mafia, where she was a Treacherous lover. Here are her posts Basically, it's the same story. She says nothing all game effectively, than complains about having difficulty keeping up. Then she says she burns her hand and cannot post for a few days....and lurks into oblivion. Also interesting is the votecount at the time:
Mod from Family Guy wrote: vote count:

reborn537 2 votes: (LlamaFluff, Save the Dragons)
LlamaFluff 1 votes: (reborn537)
Inspector Godot 1 vote: (RestFermata)
thinktank 2 vote: (Inspector Godot, babygirl)
Elvis_Knits 1 vote (xtoxm)

Not voting:

Elvis_Knits
kmd4390
GhostWriter
kloud1516

With 12 people it take 7 votes for lynch
Day 1 ends August 28th, 4:00pm PST
Again, nothing on BG. She was being heavily (and justifiably) criticised for being a crap player BUT not suspected.

Moreover, have a look at her town games (you can find them through the first link I posted). She is just as dreadful as when she is scum and is still lurkish and getting replaced. In brief: BG is a crap player who habitually lurks and doesn't contribute.

Now, given the above,
bionicchop2 wrote:for sure
unvote:pyro ; vote:vollkan
.

Obviously you will be given a chance to say what you can to try to salvage the day for yourself. 2 links of examples where she quit as scum when there was heat put on her is pretty damning.
"heat put on her"? Really? Because, from where I am sitting, there was very little suspicion on her in both of those games and her quitting basically just reflects her laziness and inability to read up. It spins a nice story to make out she cracks under pressure, but you ignore all facts.

So, to those voting me, I suggest you all think very carefully about what I have said. It seems to me that this is basically just a witch-hunt after a terrible player, without regard for the crucial question "Does it make her scum?"
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Post Post #335 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:28 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Her play corroborates game I played with her as scum (Family Guy) and contradicts her play as town in a game I played with her (PYP3).

Volkan, what is your claim?
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Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
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Post Post #336 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:38 am

Post by vollkan »

(ugh...my first link doesn't work. You'll all have to go to babygirl's profile and hit the view posts thing instead)

Ha! I finally worked out why babygirl sounded familiar to me...I modded her in my theme game Ace Attorney Mafia :lol: And guess what...she lurked horrendously and I had to replace her. AND SHE WAS TOWN :P
Xtoxm wrote: Her play corroborates game I played with her as scum (Family Guy) and contradicts her play as town in a game I played with her (PYP3).
:lol: You neglect to mention that she made a grand total of 12 posts in PYP3. None of them was over 3 lines long and her play was still poor standard.

Moreover, the picture who paint here is incredibly narrow. As I have said, and you haven't rebutted, her play across all her games is almost uniformly of a poor standard as town and scum.
Xtoxm wrote: Volkan, what is your claim?
I'm happy to claim, but I refuse to do so until people have a look at what I have said. I have the distinct impression that none of you have given two seconds thought to the broader picture here and are drawing general conclusions about what BG does as scum based on just two games whilst ignoring her play more widely. Since I think my argument is strong, and you have certainly not dented it one iota, I don't think a claim is warranted from me at this stage.
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Post Post #337 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:03 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

for everyone voting vollkan..I would like to hear the reason again....

I agree, the other game is similiar, but she has quit...there is a difference, right?

at this point, i think at least one person should unvote (bringing him to -2)...and vollkan should claim.
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #338 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:10 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

curiouskarmadog wrote: at this point, i think at least one person should unvote (bringing him to -2)...and vollkan should claim.
This confuses me. Why unvote for him to claim? L-1 is just fine.


I will read all of Vollkan's stuff today if I can.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #339 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:12 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

vollkan wrote:I have the distinct impression that none of you have given two seconds thought to the broader picture here and are drawing general conclusions about what BG does as scum based on just two games whilst ignoring her play more widely.
Do any of your links contain games where she quit as town? I already knew she was a poor player and I don't care to read more examples of her playing poorly. It is the quitting whenever she is not town and somebody puts heat on her (yes you can have heat without votes).
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #340 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:28 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Dammit, Volkan's being quite convincing...I'm not sure what to do. RBT, what say you?
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Post Post #341 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:48 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

bionicchop2 wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote: at this point, i think at least one person should unvote (bringing him to -2)...and vollkan should claim.
This confuses me. Why unvote for him to claim? L-1 is just fine.


I will read all of Vollkan's stuff today if I can.
what confuses you?..I dont want him to be quick hammered but I still want a claim.

also please dont answer a request with a question.

please reinstate why you are voting vollkan?


also, did she quit altogether in Family guy mafia? (found the game hard to quick skim due to the front page not being updated)...what was the other link?
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #342 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:53 am

Post by Xtoxm »

She made an excuse about RL and got replaced after lurking throughout.
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Post Post #343 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:03 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

curiouskarmadog wrote:
bionicchop2 wrote:
curiouskarmadog wrote: at this point, i think at least one person should unvote (bringing him to -2)...and vollkan should claim.
This confuses me. Why unvote for him to claim? L-1 is just fine.


I will read all of Vollkan's stuff today if I can.
what confuses you?..I dont want him to be quick hammered but I still want a claim.

also please dont answer a request with a question.

please reinstate why you are voting vollkan?
What confuses me is there is no good reason for anybody to unvote, so your request for this to happen is very odd. Most claims are done at L-2 or L-1 without the removal of votes. The fact vollkan is stating it in a manner where he won't claim unless someone unvotes is doing nothing to persuade me.

Also, I will not re-state my reason for voting since it is clearly stated in my vote post. If you have a specific question about my reason, then I will answer it.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #344 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:49 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

you dont want to hear what he has to say so we can evaluate tomorrow?

Where did vollkan state he will not claim unless someone unvotes.

and so that I understand,

vollkan are you refusing to claim?
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #345 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:52 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Why are you pushing this so, CKD?

He said he would claim, if that's what we wanted.
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Post Post #346 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:18 am

Post by mrfixij »

I would personally prefer a claim. I can see that BG is a habitually poor player, but I'm not entirely certain if she is
worse
as scum. My vote was in place before I replaced in, and I'd rather see a claim before I remove it, if I do.
Also answer to 'e, it, scumbag, 'ey you!, and his royal towniness.
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Post Post #347 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:23 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

Xtoxm wrote:Why are you pushing this so, CKD?

He said he would claim, if that's what we wanted.
are you sure that is what he said x?
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE
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Post Post #348 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:24 am

Post by bionicchop2 »

curiouskarmadog wrote:you dont want to hear what he has to say so we can evaluate tomorrow?

Where did vollkan state he will not claim unless someone unvotes.

and so that I understand,

vollkan are you refusing to claim?
My mistake on the unvote part. I just remembered he was saying he wouldn't claim unless... and mixed the finish with what you were saying.

Also, I am not seeing anyplace I even implied I didn't want to hear what he has to say. Could you quote where you are getting that impression from please?

I see where she lurks and gets replaced in games (maybe mods should just not allow her to join), but I only see one instance of her getting pissed and asking to replace out when she is called on her lack of activity - in that case she was certainly not town.
The above written statement is pro-town.
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Post Post #349 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 7:29 am

Post by curiouskarmadog »

you are questioning why i want someone to unvote (keeping him away from a quick lynch)..one of those reasons is because I want to here what a completely different player has to say in BG's position..the other..I want a claim.
NO YOU'RE OVER DEFENSIVE

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