Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[marcistar]

I want to twin with Kovu

my heart is shattered

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

Discrediting other players both makes the wagon on you look less significant and makes you actually look like you're scumhunting. (Something that you've been called out for doing too little of)
I don't really see how it clears you here

Neither of those players are voting me. How does discrediting them help the wagon?

I've fairly obviously been hunting all day now. If you still think I'm doing too little, that is genuinely pathetic.

[fireisredsir]

It's a meta read. He often makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town.

did you read my 993 and 997? i don't remember a response to them from you, any thoughts? since you're Reason, i would expect you to know that "cakez makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town" is not sufficient evidence to support "cakes makes weird pushes and is overly confident -> cakez is town"

[Lukewarm]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

The point was more: why would that post upset Gorilla. I don't think that the reason Gorilla presented makes sense for town!Gorilla to actually be worried about. But I see why (if you read it as me declaring marci town after I had been pushing her) scum!gorilla would be unhappy with it.

Less goal with the post you made, and more why the emotion behind why you felt the need to comment on the post existed.

But :shrug: I don't even know how strongly that it makes you scum, but you are in the bottom half of my reads, and I hated the take, and I am generally looking for a new place to plant my vote since the other person I voted did not turn into a proper wagon, and I don't feel terrible strongly about any one other then Cakez.

[Lukewarm]

Baltar, this sure does look like you are saying that you don't think they should be taken off the table, but you also are perfectly happy taking them off the table.

Not really. We are talking about two different things. Taking then off the table, to me, is a gamelong decision. What I am saying is they are not my preferred lim choice today, so there is little value in pushing for more info right now.

Fwiw, my preferred lims are very close to your own, with my strongest preference for either Cakez or dwlee.

I meant "take them off the table for today" -- if you meant for the game, then that would make sense on the disconnect.

[fireisredsir]

Fire feels slightly towny, but I also am in disagreement with his crap case on me considering he finished a game with me where I was on the lower post count similar to here.

well it's a good thing that my case on you doesn't have anything to do with postcount then, and instead has to do with how you've used those posts! but i don't think you should be elimmed today so im willing to set it aside for now

[Meuh]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

Discrediting other players both makes the wagon on you look less significant and makes you actually look like you're scumhunting. (Something that you've been called out for doing too little of)
I don't really see how it clears you here

Neither of those players are voting me. How does discrediting them help the wagon?

I've fairly obviously been hunting all day now. If you still think I'm doing too little, that is genuinely pathetic.

Calling me pathetic just makes me wanna vote you more, fyi! We're playing a cute little game on the internet, relax

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

The point was more: why would that post upset Gorilla. I don't think that the reason Gorilla presented makes sense for town!Gorilla to actually be worried about. But I see why (if you read it as me declaring marci town after I had been pushing her) scum!gorilla would be unhappy with it.

Less goal with the post you made, and more why the emotion behind why you felt the need to comment on the post existed.

But :shrug: I don't even know how strongly that it makes you scum, but you are in the bottom half of my reads, and I hated the take, and I am generally looking for a new place to plant my vote since the other person I voted did not turn into a proper wagon, and I don't feel terrible strongly about any one other then Cakez.

I am not

upset

, friend. My jimmies remain un-rustled. Don't try to exaggerate what I'm saying. I said I didn't like a post, found it suspicious, and pointed out exactly what I didn't like. Then you got very defensive over the suggestion that it was pockety.

[gorilla]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

Discrediting other players both makes the wagon on you look less significant and makes you actually look like you're scumhunting. (Something that you've been called out for doing too little of)
I don't really see how it clears you here

Neither of those players are voting me. How does discrediting them help the wagon?

I've fairly obviously been hunting all day now. If you still think I'm doing too little, that is genuinely pathetic.

Calling me pathetic just makes me wanna vote you more, fyi! We're playing a cute little game on the internet, relax

And you're behaving like an asshat toward me, so forgive me if I'm a little less than empathetic. You either don't care or aren't trying to see me as having scumhunting intentions. If you're town, it's incredibly irritating and discourteous to have to deal with your horrendous tunneling based on very little reasoning.

[Meuh]

[Lukewarm]

I thought about that lukewarm post and this is what bothers me about it - the mindset is very off. I have been a wagon for most of the day. In what world am I possibly trying to keep marci and him from being townread? How is that a realistic or plausible goal for me as scum at all right now? I am highly likly to die before he is. How can he possibly think I have...any chance of discrediting him here as scum? It doesn't add up whatsoever.

The point was more: why would that post upset Gorilla. I don't think that the reason Gorilla presented makes sense for town!Gorilla to actually be worried about. But I see why (if you read it as me declaring marci town after I had been pushing her) scum!gorilla would be unhappy with it.

Less goal with the post you made, and more why the emotion behind why you felt the need to comment on the post existed.

But :shrug: I don't even know how strongly that it makes you scum, but you are in the bottom half of my reads, and I hated the take, and I am generally looking for a new place to plant my vote since the other person I voted did not turn into a proper wagon, and I don't feel terrible strongly about any one other then Cakez.

I am not

upset

, friend. My jimmies remain un-rustled. Don't try to exaggerate what I'm saying. I said I didn't like a post, found it suspicious, and pointed out exactly what I didn't like. Then you got very defensive over the suggestion that it was pockety.

Yeah. You read the word upset with a lot more connotation then I meant as I typed it. Maybe even upset was the wrong word.

I read 1488, and questioned: why, during gorilla's reading was 1442 a post that elicited this response from him.

So, maybe this should have been worded as :

The point was more: why, during gorilla's reading was 1442 a post that elicited this response from him.. I don't think that the reason Gorilla presented makes sense for town!Gorilla to actually be worried about. But I see why (if you read it as me declaring marci town after I had been pushing her) scum!gorilla would be unhappy with it.

[gorilla]

I went to reread cakez's posts to try to argue why he's town and wound up liking them less than I did before. I thought there was a little bit of depth to what he was saying and the will to try was there even if the conclusions weren't agreeable but there's a lot of blunt hammering away at targets like Datisi and Bell. 639 in particular feels very uncharitable.

I think Baltar comes off as definitively better than him, actually?


I wouldn't say he's a top scumread but don't really feel comfortable locking him as town anymore.

[gorilla]

Datisi (2) marcistar (19), LavarManos (950)

Look at this y'all
Marci is still on her page 1 vote and day 1 is almost over
She is not even really scumhunting

What about me?

Dwlee has been in my pool for a few days for being useless and their recent popin to shade Lavar was really bad as I said a few posts ago

My point above being that the above post feels selective in that you don't include the information that doesn't support your viewpoint, or seem to care what I am doing because I'm not a popular wagon right now, which feels inconsistent

Imagine if...

[Lukewarm]

- really really don't like 1414 from luke. i think luke has been mostly saying reasonable things so ive been trying to ignore the bad vibes ive been getting (generally feels somewhat manipulative in the way he's approaching the game rather than coming from a town mindset) but i think this post is just bad. it seems intentionally very uncharitable, like, saying that marci has "pure confidence in meuh being town"???

the post he's referencing doesn't even read to me like a strong townread. scum can tunnel too and tunneling does not imply town, and luke absolutely should know this, so i find it very weird that he is twisting that

. he also takes 264 as evidence for marci scumreading meuh early and seeing "no signs of that changing" despite... her never mentioning a suspicion. and in 708, where she lists her suspicions, meuh isn't mentioned. like that is 100% just luke setting a narrative that isn't there.

I don't think that scum can be tunneled, because being tunneled means that you are reading someone so strongly that you are not seeing evidence to the contrary.

Scum can't do that. Because scum don't have reads. And, if they are ignoring evidence to the contrary, it is on purpose.

"i think ur just tunneling on me and trying to justify ur read in any way that you can." This statement inherently implies that the person is thinking of the other person as explicitly town. Which, Marci even came back and said that she was thinking of meuh as town as she typed that message.

So, it explicitly is either scum!marci forgetting that they should be suspicious of Meuh's push there, and changing to a town read because of it / or / town!marci writing it just after convincing herself that meuh is town.

I am not attempting to look at people's posts limited to the exact words used in the posts. (Like, the fact that she did not say meuh was town explicitly in that comment) But also looking at the mindset of the person when they were typing it.

And like, that was the correct reading of the subtext of that statement, and I am not sure why you would think otherwise here.

[Lukewarm]

I went to reread cakez's posts to try to argue why he's town and wound up liking them less than I did before. I thought there was a little bit of depth to what he was saying and the will to try was there even if the conclusions weren't agreeable but there's a lot of blunt hammering away at targets like Datisi and Bell. 639 in particular feels very uncharitable.

I think Baltar comes off as definitively better than him, actually?


I wouldn't say he's a top scumread but don't really feel comfortable locking him as town anymore.

Would go back to cakez if there are enough people willing to go there, but don't personally really have the energy to fight kovu on it atm.

Them seeming to completely townlock!cakez kinda deflated my desire to try and go for it.

Since then I have been kinda lost on what to do this day phase

This was actually was another factor in outing my pr, since I hoped that it would spark Fun and Interesting discussions [It didn't].

Kinda want an elim to just happen so that I can get to the night so that I can use my ability. I think that tomorrow will be much more enlightening, and easier to sort through.

[fireisredsir]

- really really don't like 1414 from luke. i think luke has been mostly saying reasonable things so ive been trying to ignore the bad vibes ive been getting (generally feels somewhat manipulative in the way he's approaching the game rather than coming from a town mindset) but i think this post is just bad. it seems intentionally very uncharitable, like, saying that marci has "pure confidence in meuh being town"???

the post he's referencing doesn't even read to me like a strong townread. scum can tunnel too and tunneling does not imply town, and luke absolutely should know this, so i find it very weird that he is twisting that

. he also takes 264 as evidence for marci scumreading meuh early and seeing "no signs of that changing" despite... her never mentioning a suspicion. and in 708, where she lists her suspicions, meuh isn't mentioned. like that is 100% just luke setting a narrative that isn't there.

I don't think that scum can be tunneled, because being tunneled means that you are reading someone so strongly that you are not seeing evidence to the contrary.

Scum can't do that. Because scum don't have reads. And, if they are ignoring evidence to the contrary, it is on purpose.

"i think ur just tunneling on me and trying to justify ur read in any way that you can." This statement inherently implies that the person is thinking of the other person as explicitly town. Which, Marci even came back and said that she was thinking of meuh as town as she typed that message.

So, it explicitly is either scum!marci forgetting that they should be suspicious of Meuh's push there, and changing to a town read because of it / or / town!marci writing it just after convincing herself that meuh is town.

I am not attempting to look at people's posts limited to the exact words used in the posts. (Like, the fact that she did not say meuh was town explicitly in that comment) But also looking at the mindset of the person when they were typing it.

And like, that was the correct reading of the subtext of that statement, and I am not sure why you would think otherwise here.

im not sure why that's the point you chose to respond to, unless you're just trying to draw me into a pedantic argument about the meaning of words instead of about alignment, but okay

1) scum can tunnel. scum cannot "be tunneled", but i think there's a key difference there. tunneling refers to the action, being tunneled refers to the mindset. the post in question used the former, you are treating it as the latter. if you want to say you disagree here, okay thats fine, it's not really the point

2) my point was about how your statements of her reads were exaggerated. you said that she had "pure confidence". even if you think that someone using the word "tunneling" implies that they are likely viewing the person as town, it isn't the kind of statement that implies a 100% confidence in someone being town. the fact that you treated it that way is what i found suspicious

3) that point was part of a larger overall trend of you misrepresenting her progression, which you chose to ignore. saying that she had pure confidence in meuh being town was an exaggeration, even if she said later that she had started to lean town at that point. you saying that she was scumreading meuh through d1 was an exaggeration (calling it an exaggeration is generous tbh, it's not really supported at all by the facts), when she seems to clearly have started to question meuh after meuh suspected her at start of d2. i found you drawing this out, exaggerating the highs of the read, the lows of the read, and the time period over which it played out, to be suspicious, because you were constructing a narrative that isn't there

[gorilla]

Anyways, off the top of my head I could kill:

Cakez, mala, gorilla, dwlee or dunn here I think.

Mind telling me why dunn makes that list?

[marcistar]

1) scum can tunnel. scum cannot "be tunneled", but i think there's a key difference there. tunneling refers to the action, being tunneled refers to the mindset. the post in question used the former, you are treating it as the latter. if you want to say you disagree here, okay thats fine, it's not really the point

WAIT HE THOUGHT I WAS CONFIDENT BECAUSE OF THE WORDS I USED??

[gorilla]

Would go back to cakez if there are enough people willing to go there, but don't personally really have the energy to fight kovu on it atm.

Them seeming to completely townlock!cakez kinda deflated my desire to try and go for it.

Since then I have been kinda lost on what to do this day phase

This is bizarre to me. Multiple people have expressed suspicion of cakez, and you don't want to try to wagon him...because of Kovu? Her dissent is enough to make you give up on a scumread?

[Lukewarm]

im not sure why that's the point you chose to respond to, unless you're just trying to draw me into a pedantic argument about the meaning of words instead of about alignment, but okay

1) scum can tunnel. scum cannot "be tunneled", but i think there's a key difference there. tunneling refers to the action, being tunneled refers to the mindset. the post in question used the former, you are treating it as the latter. if you want to say you disagree here, okay thats fine, it's not really the point

2) my point was about how your statements of her reads were exaggerated. you said that she had "pure confidence". even if you think that someone using the word "tunneling" implies that they are likely viewing the person as town, it isn't the kind of statement that implies a 100% confidence in someone being town. the fact that you treated it that way is what i found suspicious

3) that point was part of a larger overall trend of you misrepresenting her progression, which you chose to ignore. saying that she had pure confidence in meuh being town was an exaggeration, even if she said later that she had started to lean town at that point. you saying that she was scumreading meuh through d1 was an exaggeration (calling it an exaggeration is generous tbh, it's not really supported at all by the facts), when she seems to clearly have started to question meuh after meuh suspected her at start of d2. i found you drawing this out, exaggerating the highs of the read, the lows of the read, and the time period over which it played out, to be suspicious, because you were constructing a narrative that isn't there

1) I guess we just disagree.

2) I use strong language.

3) I read 1240, and made a mental note that Marci was shading Meuh. I then read her comment about tunneling in 1375, and it did not line up with that, and it looked like a perspective slip. I opened her iso, and hit control+f and searched for "Meuh" to see if there was anything that happened between 1240 and 1375. There wasnt. I then went up her iso to see the last substantive comment Marci made about Meuh prior to 1240 to see if I was wrong to read shade into 1240. The last one that I saw that felt substantive was super early, and it was a scum read.

My main focus was the 1240->1375, and looking at day 1 was an after thought. Sorry if that methodology does not stand up to your standards friend.

[Lukewarm]

Would go back to cakez if there are enough people willing to go there, but don't personally really have the energy to fight kovu on it atm.

Them seeming to completely townlock!cakez kinda deflated my desire to try and go for it.

Since then I have been kinda lost on what to do this day phase

This is bizarre to me. Multiple people have expressed suspicion of cakez, and you don't want to try to wagon him...because of Kovu? Her dissent is enough to make you give up on a scumread?

I cast my vote in 1195, and explained why I thought it was scummy. As of me moving my vote, cakez had 2 votes.

It is less "giving up on a scum read" and more thinking that it wasn't going to happen today with out major effort on my end (which, feels reasonable given the lack of votes on him).

And given her stances, I can tell that kovu would be on the other side fighting against it.

And I don't have the energy or motivation to take on that fight right now.

[fireisredsir]

2) I use strong language.

3) I read 1240, and made a mental note that Marci was shading Meuh. I then read her comment about tunneling in 1375, and it did not line up with that, and it looked like a perspective slip. I opened her iso, and hit control+f and searched for "Meuh" to see if there was anything that happened between 1240 and 1375. There wasnt. I then went up her iso to see the last substantive comment Marci made about Meuh prior to 1240 to see if I was wrong to read shade into 1240. The last one that I saw that felt substantive was super early, and it was a scum read.

My main focus was the 1240->1375, and looking at day 1 was an after thought. Sorry if that methodology does not stand up to your standards friend.

i don't really understand the combo of walking back your original point and essentially acknowledging that it was exaggerated while also being passive aggressive about me calling you out for it being a false narrative

does that come from town?

and by the way, 264 is still in no world a scumread

[marcistar]

do u think i should focus on tryimg to read meuh

i havent been trying to cuz always being wrong about her isnt very fromis vibes yknow? shes only really been a side thought to me so i havent been constantly updating about thoughts on her!!

[fireisredsir]

ok on a slightly different topic

i intentionally didn't give reasoning for my meuh vote because i wanted to see how she would respond to it

she didn't, which i think is kind of not a good look at all

she's been townreading me all game. i townread her for p much all of d1. seeing the lavar flip made me rethink things a bit, and after some of her posting early d2 and after rereading d1, i ended up with a scumread on meuh. i did post 1333, but that wasn't the extent of my reasoning and she never acknowledged that post either anyway

and idk, when someone that im townreading, that has previously been townreading me, that i have felt kinda mind-meldy on, when that person then votes me without giving much reason, i would probably want to question that or at least talk to them and try to work out what's going on. i like to talk to my townreads and from my reading of meuh it seems like she generally is that type of player as well. so i would expect her to have a similar mindset if she was town. but scum could be more likely to worry that the person has good reasoning and be hesitant to engage, or may not want to draw attention, or any number of reasons

this isn't like a huge point for me bc different people could respond differently etc etc but it definitely doesn't make me feel any better about meuh

[Rhyme and Reason]

fire, I know I owe you a response on other stuff but I'm ill and I've been putting my efforts elsewhere today and I'm kinda out of spoons to get into it

what I will drop in to say is that Meuh is my top townread if we're basing it purely off play, and if anyone tries to wagon her I will be an avenging fire from the heavens that comes forth to crisp their ashes and to brush them from the Land

I think she's had by far the clearest actual thought processes/development in response to what's happening in the game so far

~Rhyme