Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

what I will drop in to say is that Meuh is my top townread if we're basing it purely off play, and if anyone tries to wagon her I will be an avenging fire from the heavens that comes forth to crisp their ashes and to brush them from the Land

I think she's had by far the clearest actual thought processes/development in response to what's happening in the game so far

well, you're currently voting my top townread, so we can't all get what we want

meuh is already a wagon, so multiple people disagree with you. the fact that you don't seem to know this makes it hard for me to believe that you're reading the thread closely enough to come to a decision on her alignment that is worth listening to

i am not very convinced by your reasoning, and don't see the clear thought process that you see, and in fact strictly disagree with that point, so you'll have to do more than that

[Lukewarm]

2) I use strong language.

3) I read 1240, and made a mental note that Marci was shading Meuh. I then read her comment about tunneling in 1375, and it did not line up with that, and it looked like a perspective slip. I opened her iso, and hit control+f and searched for "Meuh" to see if there was anything that happened between 1240 and 1375. There wasnt. I then went up her iso to see the last substantive comment Marci made about Meuh prior to 1240 to see if I was wrong to read shade into 1240. The last one that I saw that felt substantive was super early, and it was a scum read.

My main focus was the 1240->1375, and looking at day 1 was an after thought. Sorry if that methodology does not stand up to your standards friend.

i don't really understand the combo of walking back your original point and essentially acknowledging that it was exaggerated while also being passive aggressive about me calling you out for it being a false narrative

does that come from town?

and by the way, 264 is still in no world a scumread

I am not walking back my original point. My original point was that she had not called meuh town, and in fact, she was shading her not long before. And her suddenly talking about meuh in town terms was suspicious.

That was the point. That was the the thing that I cared about.

My recent posts were to clarify the point, since you appear to have walked away with a different impression of what I was thinking.

I am simultaneously trying to help you understand my thoughts, and how I got to there -- while also being mildly frustrated at your representation of my thoughts.

And gotta say, doubly frustrated at the new line that 264 was not a scum read as a double down on saying that her tunnel comment did not imply a town read. Because both are simply true.

I think I'm gonna drop this conversation now.

[gorilla]

meuh is already a wagon, so multiple people disagree with you. the fact that you don't seem to know this makes it

hard for me to believe that you're reading the thread closely enough

to come to a decision on her alignment that is worth listening to

This is something like the fifth time they've demonstrated that they're barely reading the game. It's frustrating.

Anyways, off the top of my head I could kill:

Cakez, mala, gorilla, dwlee or dunn here I think.

Mind telling me why dunn makes that list?

[Lukewarm]

And like, this feels like a repeat of you suddenly deciding I was scum in our dance game.

Gonna day up front that it is my gut feeling towards your stances around me. I haven't actually looked back at it. So definitely not interest in starting up a conversation on how you do or don't think it is comparable.

[Lukewarm]

Anyways, off the top of my head I could kill:

Cakez, mala, gorilla, dwlee or dunn here I think.

Mind telling me why dunn makes that list?

Huh. I typed up a response to this, but it appears it didn't send.

Not been a fan of his content this day phase. Didn't like how much of his iso is focused on discussing his meta when he is not even a wagon

I am used to very insightful posts coming from him as town, and I haven't really seen that this game, and instead seeing him argue that baltar is town reading him for the wrong reasons

[Meuh]

ok on a slightly different topic

i intentionally didn't give reasoning for my meuh vote because i wanted to see how she would respond to it

she didn't, which i think is kind of not a good look at all

she's been townreading me all game. i townread her for p much all of d1. seeing the lavar flip made me rethink things a bit, and after some of her posting early d2 and after rereading d1, i ended up with a scumread on meuh. i did post 1333, but that wasn't the extent of my reasoning and she never acknowledged that post either anyway

and idk, when someone that im townreading, that has previously been townreading me, that i have felt kinda mind-meldy on, when that person then votes me without giving much reason, i would probably want to question that or at least talk to them and try to work out what's going on. i like to talk to my townreads and from my reading of meuh it seems like she generally is that type of player as well. so i would expect her to have a similar mindset if she was town. but scum could be more likely to worry that the person has good reasoning and be hesitant to engage, or may not want to draw attention, or any number of reasons

this isn't like a huge point for me bc different people could respond differently etc etc but it definitely doesn't make me feel any better about meuh

1333 was similar to a post I already replied to iirc, and others (I think Baltar too?) had brought up the same thing. I’m not particularly interested in replying to the same points several times in a row. I think I’ve also been asked some stuff that I missed, if anyone has anything they asked and didn’t get a reply feel free to, I probably just missed it
Tbh seeing your vote I mainly got the impression you disliked me for going after Gorilla, which isn’t really something I think there’s much to respond to beyond what I was already talking about with other people.

I’ve kinda felt a disconnect when you placed that vote because in my eyes I’ve been playing pretty clearly town (I’m a particularly easy player to read).
Plus as you mentioned we’ve been mind-meldy so I’ve been trusting your judgement so I kind of felt shitty to see you vote me.
This all happening on top of the general pushback to a post I made feeling like I was meaningfully solving the game. I felt shitty because of it all, I was a better townie when I first played games here a year ago it seems.

TLDR: I wasn’t in a particularly good mood and your vote felt like something that piled onto a general pushback against me so I didn’t really see a reason to individually address it.

If you wanna discuss it now, I’m down

[fireisredsir]

And gotta say, doubly frustrated at the new line that 264 was not a scum read as a double down on saying that her tunnel comment did not imply a town read. Because both are simply true.

I think I'm gonna drop this conversation now.

it wasn't a new line, i said it in the original post, you just ignored it. saying someone needs more suspicions is not a scumread. she did not list meuh in her scumreads at any point in d1. there's no reason to believe that it was a scumread. i do find it suspect that as someone who has had marci as their primary focus all game, you would not have a grasp on her progressions and would just be ctrl+F-ing meuh to find things that support your point. i do, in fact, have higher standards for your methodology, and i think that you do as well

but okay, fine, i don't think you should be eliminated today anyway so we don't have to go further with this now. i just wanted to get my thoughts out there because i don't want to risk the chance of dying with them unsaid

[Rhyme and Reason]

@fire there is a difference between having votes and being a viable wagon

I knew that meuh had votes, but it didn't need to be addressed at the point where it's like 2 votes, in the same way that I won't address a wagon on myself if it has 2 votes normally

my comment to you is not necessarily about convincing you, it is giving you a heads up that if you try to come for Meuh then I will prob turn it on. honestly that might not be the worst thing in the world (I don't mean "turn it on" like to be a dick or that I'll be super aggro) but I mean more that if you are thinking this is an easy push or a simple compromise push, you may want to find another target

I also find it... hard to believe from a base level that you can't see thought progressions when looking at her ISO, although I'm not towncasing her rn

@gorilla -- show receipts, because that just looks like a straight up lie right now. am I reading the game closely? no. I'm reading it the way I always do, which is skimming along and then going back to read sections in ISO/in depth.

there is one moment (yesterday, when I responded to you about the wrong thing) that was me glossing over the game, partly because I was high as balls. but I cannot think of any other moment where I haven't been upfront about my being behind, and when I'm commenting you can assume I'm up-to-date

~Rhyme

[Fey]

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

[fireisredsir]

@fire there is a difference between having votes and being a viable wagon

I knew that meuh had votes, but it didn't need to be addressed at the point where it's like 2 votes, in the same way that I won't address a wagon on myself if it has 2 votes normally

my comment to you is not necessarily about convincing you, it is giving you a heads up that if you try to come for Meuh then I will prob turn it on. honestly that might not be the worst thing in the world (I don't mean "turn it on" like to be a dick or that I'll be super aggro) but I mean more that if you are thinking this is an easy push or a simple compromise push, you may want to find another target

I also find it... hard to believe from a base level that you can't see thought progressions when looking at her ISO, although I'm not towncasing her rn

well, that actually sounds more like incentive to keep voting her then tbh. would prefer for you to turn it on. and she did have 4 votes earlier and was a leading wagon, i believe vp left

i see some thought progressions but some points where they don't make sense and i def do not think that she has the most clear thought progressions in the game

[Lukewarm]

And gotta say, doubly frustrated at the new line that 264 was not a scum read as a double down on saying that her tunnel comment did not imply a town read. Because both are simply true.

I think I'm gonna drop this conversation now.

it wasn't a new line, i said it in the original post, you just ignored it. saying someone needs more suspicions is not a scumread. she did not list meuh in her scumreads at any point in d1. there's no reason to believe that it was a scumread. i do find it suspect that as someone who has had marci as their primary focus all game, you would not have a grasp on her progressions and would just be ctrl+F-ing meuh to find things that support your point. i do, in fact, have higher standards for your methodology, and i think that you do as well

but okay, fine, i don't think you should be eliminated today anyway so we don't have to go further with this now. i just wanted to get my thoughts out there because i don't want to risk the chance of dying with them unsaid

Making a statement that More People should be scum reading someone means that you scum read that person. Like. 100% that is what it means. If you don't see that then we might as well be speaking different languages or playing different games

And the control f thing you just said isn't even what I said. I literally said that upon reading the tunneled comment, it immediately stood out because it didn't match my memory of her stance wrt to meuh. Because I remembered her shading her. And I seemed to remember her scum reading her day 1. Like the Whole Reason it stood out to me was because it didn't match.

The control f was to spot check if there was something in her iso that I had missed.

And guess what I saw when I did.

Her shading her like 100 posts before. And her calling her a scum read (I will die on this hill thank you) early. And zero posts that called her town.

Like what are you even talking about. I remembered right. I spot checked myself. Upon spot checking I saw that I remembered correctly and that there was not some post that I missed.

And you are now taking the stance it's suspicious that I didn't have a grasp on it.

I'm done

[Val89]

meuh needs to have more scumreads imo

Looks to me like one of you are reading this as "more people ought to be scum reading meuh", and one you took it as "Meuh needs to tell us more people they find scummy".

I thought it was fairly obviously the second, but I can see a world it was taken differently.

[gorilla]

@gorilla -- show receipts, because that just looks like a straight up lie right now. am I reading the game closely? no. I'm reading it the way I always do, which is skimming along and then going back to read sections in ISO/in depth.

there is one moment (yesterday, when I responded to you about the wrong thing) that was me glossing over the game, partly because I was high as balls. but I cannot think of any other moment where I haven't been upfront about my being behind, and when I'm commenting you can assume I'm up-to-date

For what it's worth, I do not think this makes you scum and was not implying that. I am saying is that it makes you incredibly unreliable and you should probably not be trusted given you're not really paying attention to the game. (this will make you upset. I don't care)

1. openly admitting to not having read LLD's ISO in 1402 while still suggesting it could be in favor of dwlee being town.
2. Completely missing the context of dunn repeating my argument at me (also in 1402)
3. outright misreading the post i quoted in 1475 and answering about a different one - is this small and shitty and a nitpick? yes. would I care about it normally? no. But since you're asking me to prove that you're not paying attention to the game, I might as well show it.
4. just now as fire pointed out


There, that huge waste of time is done. You can get mad at me for correctly assessing you're not reading the game thoroughly, and I'll move on with my life.

[fireisredsir]

you are correct val, i only now realized that luke though it meant the former

fine with ending this discussion for now unless you have things you want me to respond to, luke, i want to talk to meuh, i think that would be more productive at this time

[gorilla]

Looking over the votes on Meuh - I'm not really sure there's a compelling case there. Kovu simply gives a "I definitely don't tr Meuh" and something about how she seems like she's sharing a PT with marci. fire has some point about having an off response to being accused of sheeping and ignoring his vote on her. Baltar is mostly relying on wagonomics reasoning. None of that particularly makes me want to vote for her.

I think Fey's 1168 actually makes the

best

points, which feels weird because I don't have any reason in particular to townread Fey. There's at least some logic to what fey is saying but although Meuh is making conclusions about the Day 1 wagons I feel are strange and unnatural, I don't think that inherently makes it scum reasoning. I've found her process to mostly be believable throughout this game and when I was arguing with her she felt genuine. I know that's vague and crappy, sorry.


Maybe I am just Bad At Mafia and am unable to see what other people are seeing, but I don't really see why she's being scumread.

[fireisredsir]

TLDR: I wasn’t in a particularly good mood and your vote felt like something that piled onto a general pushback against me so I didn’t really see a reason to individually address it.

If you wanna discuss it now, I’m down

ok

1) i don't think it's very reasonable to say that you're an easy read. i read through your flash games scumgame and you started off pretty strong and imo only really fell off near the end, but expressed a desire post-game to put in more effort next time and keep improving. i don't think you've really been around long enough to be declared as a polarized player. also, std just said this almost exactly to me in a game where people said he was out of his scumrange, and i ended up believing it, and he was scum, and i lost in elo by not voting him. so im not feeling super inclined to follow arguments along those lines rn

2) my reaction to seeing the lavar flip was that i may be seeing the game from the wrong angle and that if i was on the wrong page, then the people who i felt like i was on the same page with... may not have good intentions. did you feel that way at all, prior to my pushing back in your gorilla case?

3) walk me through your progression on lavar. when i reread i found it hard to believe as genuine, and felt like i may have had it backwards on who was scum in the interaction between you two. what did you see prior to 296 that you felt were good vibes, enough for you to sheep a prior scumread? what made you decide to vote him in 822? i thought that you adding on the reasoning in 833 after the vote was kinda sketchy, although I agreed with it at the time

4) i know you've explained your thought process here a bit but i still feel like i need more. i just cannot understand how you were townbinning gorilla, even at the start of d2, then only really started considering him as a partner to marci, but still focused your push primarily on him, and now still seem to be scumreading him. can you summarize your reasons for scumreading gorilla, and what changed your read, independent of marci? 1295 just seems really counter to everything you've said about the slot previously. 1300 is also very odd considering you were one of the people declaring him town early

5) i still don't really buy your reasoning for scum being on the dwlee wagon. do you stand by that?

[VP Baltar]

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

You can just sheep me. Vote cakez. We can also kill dwlee

[fireisredsir]

The strength it takes of me to open this game.

You can just sheep me. Vote cakez. We can also kill dwlee

id vote dwlee too actually

[Rhyme and Reason]

Are his reads terrible too?

As town? I've seen them be not great, at least early on.

did you read my 993 and 997? i don't remember a response to them from you, any thoughts? since you're Reason, i would expect you to know that "cakez makes weird pushes and is overly confident in things as town" is not sufficient evidence to support "cakes makes weird pushes and is overly confident -> cakez is town"

I read them, I'm not about to try to draw conclusions from an ISO from a game I wasn't in. I think the town-Cakez post you linked in 997 is fairly rare and uncharacteristic of him, at least from what I remember.

And yes, I do know that the logical argument constructed from my claim would be a fallacy of affirming the consequent. But my claim is probabilistic; Cakez is very often like this as town (maybe 90%, at least in my experience), and the chance that he can pull it off this game in a way that feels very similar is lower (maybe 50%? I don't want to give him too little credit here), so his odds of being town increase.

For what it's worth, I do not think this makes you scum and was not implying that. I am saying is that it makes you incredibly unreliable and you should probably not be trusted given you're not really paying attention to the game. (this will make you upset. I don't care)

I mean, you're free to ignore your teammates when they're not saying what you want to hear, that's definitely a good strategy for winning this team game. But I think it's ironic that you accused Menalque of not reading the game and as evidence pointed to multiple things that I did.

Also, I think you misunderstood the bit about LLD and Dwlee. The question "would scum avoid killing LLD if she seemed to be FOSing scum-Dwlee" is actually unrelated to the question "did LLD seem to be FOSing Dwlee"; both are important, but I was addressing the former at that time, and when I addressed the latter, I read LLD's ISO.

-Reason

[Fey]

VOTE: Dwlee

Avengers assemble.

[fireisredsir]

And yes, I do know that the logical argument constructed from my claim would be a fallacy of affirming the consequent. But my claim is probabilistic; Cakez is very often like this as town (maybe 90%, at least in my experience), and the chance that he can pull it off this game in a way that feels very similar is lower (maybe 50%? I don't want to give him too little credit here), so his odds of being town increase.

i still haven't seen you say that you explicitly have experience with him as scum where he is not like this. so i will ask directly: do you? if not, i don't see where your 50% is coming from at all

my read of his meta was not exhaustive, but i mostly came to the conclusion that this is more just a style that is indicative of cakez, not that it is a style indicative of town cakez

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

[Fey]

Arguments about who I'd kill are interesting given I certainly wouldn't be the one making the decision for who to kill given my activity

I've skimmed, ish, will try to be around later.

Idle thought that I had before but this post is weird. Kinda feels like wrong reasons irritation or not even irritation but like. *Hand waves.* Something in that world to me.

[gorilla]

I mean, you're free to ignore your teammates when they're not saying what you want to hear, that's definitely a good strategy for winning this team game.

I think if you're town what you're saying should mostly be ignored, yes. I have no reason to believe anything you say is remotely reliable when your play has been as sloppy and lazy as it has been.

[Rhyme and Reason]

i still haven't seen you say that you explicitly have experience with him as scum where he is not like this. so i will ask directly: do you?

Yes: two games. The first of which is

very

old, but it's still notable for me as the first game where I ever townread Cakez (I had played probably half a dozen games with him by this point), and also the first I played in where he was scum.

However the argument does not depend on this experience. The 50% was a rough ballpark based on the specificity of the behaviors in question. Some things are just naturally harder to replicate easily.

I think if you're town what you're saying should mostly be ignored, yes. I have no reason to believe anything you say is remotely reliable when your play has been as sloppy and lazy as it has been.

Which head is this in reference to? Or does my sloppiness make Menalque unreliable, or vice versa (even though our reads were mostly arrived at independently)?

-Reason