Open 855: Not Mafia's Republic | Game Over

[staypositivefriend]

ive gotta be honest with everyone, im mafia

[staypositivefriend]

ive gotta be honest with everyone, im mafia

on opposite day!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

its ok

i was serious about amnesty for the mafia

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

if you confess now I will ask no questions but if you make me wagon you and claim at e-1 i will probly be too lazy to unvote

[Arete Lastname]

no, that's not what happened. you put penguin in your scum list because you said that you felt like penguin was trying to project that they were "doing towny things".

this is a misrepresentation of my actual point

it's the most level 0 assumption possible to believe that me/penguin are W/W and im going out of my way to discredit your wolfread on my scumbuddy who you had a weak scumlean on at best and who wasnt even the primary person that you were targeting or pushing on, and it's a conclusion that i find it difficult to believe town!arete would reach

phrasing this in the maximally charitable way I can, you jumped on the Penguin point to chainsaw defend him, misrepresented my argument, and then repeatedly tried to discredit the evidence I brought up to support my point

and the best argument against you being partnered is "SPF likes to bus" but I don't think that would apply in this setup, Mafia wouldn't want to bus because they'd be more likely to get nightkilled and Werewolves wouldn't want to go down to 1 member with a Seer in the game

the

most charitable interpretation

I can come up with here is that you misinterpreted it because you genuinely misread, and when I attempted to clarify you were still semi-stuck on your initial misinterpretation and so read it through that lens and were like 'well Arete's evidence doesn't support (my mistaken interpretation of) what their point is so clearly they're making things up'

1. i just went and double checked, and i'm not misrepresenting your read on penguin. this is the specific reasoning that you used against penguin when explaining your read on him:

whereas he keeps making posts that are like one sentence long and barely add anything but technically contribute just enough that if you only skim it looks like he's doing something.

they /look like they're trying to look like he's Doing Something/ without actually doing something, is the important part

as such, how is "penguin is trying to project that they are Doing Towny Things" a meaningfully different way to phrase your read than "they look like they're trying to look like he's doing something"?

if i want to steelman your perspective, then i can see how "penguin is looking like he's trying to do something without actually doing something" is a bit different from "penguin is trying to project that he's doing towny things", but the primary point of your read on penguin (ie: "penguin is trying to look towny without actually being towny") has been correctly interpreted by me throughout this entire conversation

it's not about trying to project towniness-in-particular, it's about trying to project a general aura of contributingness-and-productivity, an aura of Doing Something, enough to get people to leave you alone for a while, not trying to get everyone to be like 'wow you're so townie'

which I specifically said, hence thinking that you were misrepping me ~knowingly. I guess if you just skipped over this part of the post maybe it genuinely could have been an accident?

also to be clear it's less about projecting 'towniness' per se and more about projecting 'do-something-ness'

[quote="In post 366, staypositivefriend"
2. why do you include the best argument against me/penguin being partnered and not the best argument for why me and penguin are partnered? the framing of this post treats me/penguin being partnered as the logical/default perspective, but that doesn't make any sense. why does me grilling you on the nuances of your read on a specific player mean that i am therefore likely to be partnered with that player? in fact, isn't it possible for me to be a mafia/wolf who is unaligned with penguin, and is jumping on your reasoning on him to make you look bad, regardless of penguin's alignment? what do i gain by hard defending my partner when you were not hardpushing on him or trying to get him killed?

it is logically fallacious for town!arete to approach the exchange we just had with: "well, i guess SPF/penguin must be partnered", and this is yet another example of you reaching conclusions that do not feel fully logical or carefully thought through, and i really really think that the dishonesty in your posting might just be because youre mafia but im trying not to confirmation bias myself[/quote]

when I said "phrasing this in the maximally charitable way I can, you jumped on the Penguin point to chainsaw defend him, misrepresented my argument, and then repeatedly tried to discredit the evidence I brought up to support my point" that was the argument for you being partnered. Describing what you are doing as 'grilling [me] on the nuances of [my] read' is a really generous way to talk about your actual actions here, like if I'd been like "Penguin is a scumlean, here's why" and you'd been like "are you sure about that, I think he's just openly being useless rather than trying to be at all subtle about it, and I think open uselessness is NAI" then yeah that's just grilling me on the nuances but you lept to try and discredit me and my read -- and even when I've pointed out issues with your argument you've been really slow to acknowledge that there are issues with it, like you're trying to avoid conceding I have a point

I feel like the 'why' here is obvious, like, if you are scum you presumably would rather not have your teammates dead, and it would be advantageous to you to get the people pushing them voted out, even if they aren't pushing them very hard. You're acting like it's totally ridiculous for you to try to defend a teammate and I feel like the reasons why you might do that are pretty obvious.

and ... I don't know how to express this in a way that makes sense, but I feel like town!SPF would be capable of seeing why you look partnery with him? I feel like you're trying to make me think it's ridiculous that you're partnered with him, and I think as town you would be able to recognize that (even if it's not a correct read in that world) your behavior is stereotypically partnery

(and yeah obviously 'SPF scum Penguin town' is a theoretically-possible world as well, although I feel like in that case you would be less reluctant to acknowledge that I have a point/more inclined to try to look reasonable about me refuting all your arguments?)

[Arete Lastname]

I'm questioning why you would say that to me and not vote me

because it was mostly a tinfoil that I like 15% believed

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

so what was the point of saying it at all

feels like some performative nonsense

[Arete Lastname]

so what was the point of saying it at all

I was kinda hoping for a sanity check but unfortunately no one else is in the thread except SPF

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

you wanted a sanity check on your 15% tinfoil? lol

[Arete Lastname]

you wanted a sanity check on your 15% tinfoil? lol

...yes? I'm not going to be like 'well this kind of feels like a scumclaim, but that also feels like a stupid interpretation, but maybe it isn't a stupid interpretation, but maybe it is, I guess I'll just say nothing and hope it wasn't'

[staypositivefriend]

it's not about trying to project towniness-in-particular, it's about trying to project a general aura of contributingness-and-productivity, an aura of Doing Something, enough to get people to leave you alone for a while, not trying to get everyone to be like 'wow you're so townie'

which I specifically said, hence thinking that you were misrepping me ~knowingly. I guess if you just skipped over this part of the post maybe it genuinely could have been an accident?

i do feel that there are only a few degrees of separation from: "x is trying to look towny" and "x is trying to project a general aura of contributingness-and-productivity, an aura of Doing Something, enough to get people to leave them alone for a while", but i can understand the differences between the two if i squint

in that case, i also do disagree that the specific posts that you quoted from penguin project an aura of "do-something-ness" but i feel like ive already explained why very clearly and that we would just be going in circles if i laid out my thoughts again. i will grant that it's possible for you to make the specific read that you made on penguin from a town!arete perspective if you will also grant why i've found your specific read on penguin potentially scum-indicative for you. in the same way that youre accusing me of trying to make your read on me look ridiculous, i feel like youve been trying to make my read on you look ridiculous and going out of your way to avoid conceding any ground

when I said "phrasing this in the maximally charitable way I can, you jumped on the Penguin point to chainsaw defend him, misrepresented my argument, and then repeatedly tried to discredit the evidence I brought up to support my point" that was the argument for you being partnered. Describing what you are doing as 'grilling [me] on the nuances of [my] read' is a really generous way to talk about your actual actions here, like if I'd been like "Penguin is a scumlean, here's why" and you'd been like "are you sure about that, I think he's just openly being useless rather than trying to be at all subtle about it, and I think open uselessness is NAI" then yeah that's just grilling me on the nuances but you lept to try and discredit me and my read -- and even when I've pointed out issues with your argument you've been really slow to acknowledge that there are issues with it, like you're trying to avoid conceding I have a point

I feel like the 'why' here is obvious, like, if you are scum you presumably would rather not have your teammates dead, and it would be advantageous to you to get the people pushing them voted out, even if they aren't pushing them very hard. You're acting like it's totally ridiculous for you to try to defend a teammate and I feel like the reasons why you might do that are pretty obvious.

and ... I don't know how to express this in a way that makes sense, but I feel like town!SPF would be capable of seeing why you look partnery with him? I feel like you're trying to make me think it's ridiculous that you're partnered with him, and I think as town you would be able to recognize that (even if it's not a correct read in that world) your behavior is stereotypically partnery

(and yeah obviously 'SPF scum Penguin town' is a theoretically-possible world as well, although I feel like in that case you would be less reluctant to acknowledge that I have a point/more inclined to try to look reasonable about me refuting all your arguments?)

to me, the "why" doesnt feel obvious or intuitive at all, and i promise that i'm not saying that just because you're talking about me. in my experience, when one player goes out of their way to "defend" or nitpick the reasoning behind someone elses read, the person that they are "defending" is unaligned with them more often than not. like, if i was evaluating the exchange that we just had from a town!arete POV, there would be a few obvious possibilities that i would need to discount before i could get to a world of: "SPF/penguin must be teamed", for example:

1.SPF is town, and she genuinely feels that arete's read on penguin is wolf-indicative for arete

2. SPF is mafia, unaligned with penguin, and genuinely feels that arete's read on penguin is wolf-indicative for arete

3. SPF is mafia, unaligned with penguin, and is pretending to scumread arete so that she has an excuse to push on them

of course, a world where SPF is mafia, aligned with penguin, and is trying to push on arete since arete scumreads her partner, is also a plausible world as well, but it is not a world that intuitively makes sense to have as a

default

assumption

i can see town!arete believing that me/penguin are partnered, but i felt that you immediately jumped to the assumption of: "SPF/penguin are partnered" during our exchange in a reactive and defensive way, in part to discredit the concerns that i was bringing up about you. this is why i've been implying that your read is logically fallacious and potentially wolf-indicative for you - not because of the read itself, but because of the way that you formed the read in a way that felt rushed and not something that you carefully thought through

[staypositivefriend]

i should have been asleep like 2 hours ago so that might be my last post for the night. if arete still has the energy to respond to me after that then they win tbh

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

or its cuz they are a nocturnal animal

[staypositivefriend]

nocturnal animals, tbh, was not a very good movie!

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

the problem with artsy movies is that i always fall asleep in the middle of them

[Arete Lastname]

i will grant that it's possible for you to make the specific read that you made on penguin from a town!arete perspective if you will also grant why i've found your specific read on penguin potentially scum-indicative for you. in the same way that youre accusing me of trying to make your read on me look ridiculous, i feel like youve been trying to make my read on you look ridiculous and going out of your way to avoid conceding any ground

I haven't been trying to make your read look ridiculous, I've been trying to look at it from the possibility of you being town* as well to see what could have caused you to have that read -- I will cop to the fact that I failed to think of the world where you had just straight-up missed my clarification and were still genuinely reading things based on your original interpretation, I agree that if you were working under that interpretation the entire time my read looks weirder

*(or scum-who-really-truly-believes-what-she's-saying, I'm bucketing that into town for these purposes since I'm not going to be able to tell them apart)

to me, the "why" doesnt feel obvious or intuitive at all, and i promise that i'm not saying that just because you're talking about me. in my experience, when one player goes out of their way to "defend" or nitpick the reasoning behind someone elses read, the person that they are "defending" is unaligned with them more often than not.

in my experience this depends heavily on the nature of the defense, like scenarios where Person A says Person B is sus and then Person C comes in like "no, Person B is obvious town! I will throw myself in front of them as a shield!" are almost never w/w, part of what was pinging me about your defense was that you were trying to emphasize the fact that you weren't 'calling him town,' just 'trying to make the case against him look weaker than it was'

from my specific experience with you both defending and bussing are within your wolfrange, like in Constellations when you had that whole post that became a copypasta on how Alexa was town for not freezing up

anyways I do need to sleep, see you all tomorrow

[staypositivefriend]

VOTE: taly

gn

[The Abomination]

poop

- 69

[PenguinPower]

ive said the word "penguin" way more times than i could have predicted coming into this game

Makes you feel good though, doesn’t it?

[PenguinPower]

VOTE: arete

[AbbyandRani]

Good morning :sparkleemoji:

- sk

[AbbyandRani]

Pooty Brad said gm to me this morning

- sk

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

aww hes such a good boy

[Meditation]

The Animal Police Department is a Legendary Mafiascum Institution of ScumHunting Prowess.


To apply to join you need one of the following:


(1) 75%+ Hit Rate on Day One Scumreads
(2) 25% + Hit Rate on Day Two Hero Solves in Games of Size 15-30.
(3) At Least two White Knight Nominations in the Past Ten Years
(4) Been Night One Fearkilled Three times in the Past Year
(5) Have a username or avatar that is animal related.

VOTE: Save The Dragons

I'd like to apply.

i read MU spec chat

I'd like to read this.

i read MU spec chat

What is your discord name?

- sk

Definitely should read this.

Please try not to reference a spec chat that involves ongoing games. Thank you.

Hi I'm drunk.

Ask me anythijg

- sk

Can people join me tomorrow night? I'll be drunk then.

catboi - this slot feels sort of blunt, in a down-to-business sort of way, like they just want to get to work (P#147, P#150, P#205). I don't really know how to explain this but I think the particular flavor of bluntness they have going on is more townie than not -- like, Professor McGonagall vibes [this should not be taken as support of JKR to be clear]

Like catboi town votes me and then unvotes me when I did nothing in between?

like, does arete!town actually feel that this is sufficient justification to townread catboi in a setup where roughly 50% of the ppl who arent you are mafia?

No.

the catboi read is atrocious

Agreed. I'd prefer to vote here, but Arete is a decent wagon too.

catboi - this slot feels sort of blunt, in a down-to-business sort of way, like they just want to get to work (P#147, P#150, P#205). I don't really know how to explain this but I think the particular flavor of bluntness they have going on is more townie than not -- like, Professor McGonagall vibes [this should not be taken as support of JKR to be clear]

like, does arete!town actually feel that this is sufficient justification to townread catboi in a setup where roughly 50% of the ppl who arent you are mafia?

Yes

This would be the cue to explain.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Arete Lastname

VOTE: arete lastname

VOTE: Arete LastWoof

- Brad

Spf give us a real read on the Abomination

i actually do feel that i might have cleared them too easily/could be underestimating them, but i lean on them being town because:

-i have a great track record of reading nanook and ace marvel correctly and neither of them have pinged me yet (ace marvel moreso than nook, since nook has basically been a non-factor in the slot so far), slot has projected comfort/relaxation at a time when wolves are usually the most uncomfortable, etc

-i think that fatmo possibly townslipped when he implied that i might have spewed him as town

-this sequence of posts:

actually how do I even know that post came from Brad and not Sabi pretending to be Brad while Brad cries in the woofchat

This is a good post

....


I feel like you taking that shitpost seriously is more likely to come from scum!you because scum tend to think townies are "serious"

bad look

I don't get this.

Though I will say Pooky might be deep wolf/evil so far with I suppose their abrasiveness. I have no idea who they are despite them seemingly pretty familiar with us in the crowd

-90

is probably town indicative for the abomination slot bcuz in a world where they are wolfing i would expect them to likely be operating as a united front and attempting to try to buddy/pocket the same people. abomination making a post complimenting one of pooky's posts and then making a post accusing pooky of being potentially evil/a deepwolf shortly after implies to me that their team actually is trying to solve and that they aren't playing with a specific agenda. i understand that this read is less impactful knowing that both wolf teams would be trying to hunt for the other in this setup, but i still think the lack of consistency in their progressions is an indication that theyre playing from an uninformed perspective

I'd go for different peoples. As each person or system has their own style.

Consider my vote spiritually on Arete until there's a VC. Don't want to accidentally hammer.

[catboi]

VOTE: meditation

okay that's a scumclaim can we do this first plz~