Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

The lazy answer is 'usually there's a deepwolf', who through either effort or bussing or both, has put in the work to carry their team to victory if everyone else on the scumteam dies, and nobody else except you and fire really fit that - both of you have put enough effort into the game and pressured marci enough that everyone's reactions to both of ya'll have been "yeah that's fine" or better for the entire game and I'd be surprised if anyone claims to have targeted one of you two with an invictus shot since n2.

The slightly less lazy answer I already mentioned a piece of earlier - in a game where town get twice as many eliminations as mafia do kills, mafia need to have an actual plan to make it through the game, and generally they're aware enough of how they're perceived and the game-state to make one that doesn't suck. Unless you somehow get 4 Enchants on a scumteam, the plan is never "let's ALL lurk and hammer randomly and hope we win that way", and for a game like this there's going to be a Plan A Day 1 for "Ideally we can push these townies" and later a Plan B for "scum 1 gets/got elim'd early by elim/Invictus" and even later a plan C for "scum 2 gets a major wagon on them today" and etc etc. My gut is that you fit that best yesterday with the marci push d2 from you, that I think would be reasonable for you-scum to expect wouldn't go anywhere and just get some distancing in given your complaints about people not playing the game and not following you, but frankly that's more gut and paranoia than an actual conviction - your play yesterday was erratic but the only part I actually find scummy there was your brief push on me for voting Enchant early game+me posting from my personal PT, which I think could reasonably come from town. Fire also makes sense as a deepwolf as *the reasonable scum*, particularly after yesterday, in that he helped push marci early but also tried to convince me of both Lavar-scum D1 and Cakez possibly being scum with marci yesterday with decent but wrong reasonings and not really budging to consider my POV much on either.
Nobody else I think feels like they came out of the marci wagon with what could be a plan to get to endgame.

there's an issue with your line of thinking here. you're saying that a deepwolf usually exists, and define it as someone who puts in the effort or the bussing to make it to endgame. but in order to determine who it is, you're looking at the output, not the input. you're saying that because me and kovu are mostly townread, we make sense as the deepwolf. but an attempted deepwolf can't control how they get read, they can only control what they put into the game. and it seems like you're disregarding meuh as a possibility here just because she's in the poe and some people have called her out for scummy behavior. she's still put in the effort and the bussing to qualify

[Meuh]

you 100% know better than this.

Why though
Like why is this an assumption you're making here, she's clearly not that engaged with the game

[fireisredsir]

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

kovu
dunn
gorilla
gamma
fey
meuh

prob this

[Fey]

Gorilla I think should be the vote today. With the night action being blocked despite nothing else being blocked that probably should have like Bell’s it’s just too convenient.

[fireisredsir]

Like I think the sort of weird condescending disappointed tone is just like. “What.”

i don't think i was condescending or disappointed? im saying it doesn't make sense for you to have that thought as town

[Meuh]

Gorilla/Fire/Dunn ggez

Pedit: your tone was 100% weird there

[Fey]

Like I think the sort of weird condescending disappointed tone is just like. “What.”

i don't think i was condescending or disappointed? im saying it doesn't make sense for you to have that thought as town

“You know better than this” is 100% a weirdchamp moment.

[fireisredsir]

you 100% know better than this.

Why though
Like why is this an assumption you're making here, she's clearly not that engaged with the game

was a player-specific comment, not a game-specific comment. as a player she knows that at this stage in the game it's p likely that scum will be bussing somewhere. because she's a good scum player and has played mafia a lot. her immediate reaction to me proposing a possible team that includes her being "well, thats a weird team, bc then id be bussing" is just... not a thought that makes sense given what she should know about how to play the game of mafia. so i think it's more likely to be an attempt to dismiss that comes from scum

[fireisredsir]

Like I think the sort of weird condescending disappointed tone is just like. “What.”

i don't think i was condescending or disappointed? im saying it doesn't make sense for you to have that thought as town

“You know better than this” is 100% a weirdchamp moment.

it's relevant to why the comment is suspicious, though? if you were a new player and had no idea how to play the scum alignment then it would be reasonable for you to dismiss a team in that way as town. you're not, so it's not reasonable, so it's suspicious

[Fey]

...what do I gain from bussing yesterday when I have like a lot of other options.

[fireisredsir]

the ability to say that, for one

what do you lose from it? it didn't go anywhere

[Fey]

I mean I lose when it’s like... pointed out I didn’t ~really commit~ and instead just focused on killing town. Like yeah sure this is all things I can just say but generally whenever I bus I bus to death and not like pithy half-measures.

[Fey]

And then it just becomes “she never really tried to kill Gamma!” Because like everything I’ve done this game except my emotions have been limp.

[fireisredsir]

I currently have my Invictus pointed squarely at Gamma and have had him in my solve since yesterday so... weird team concept.

this was your initial response though? you said that it didn't make sense as a team bc you had gamma in your solve since yesterday and you're saying he's your strongest scumread

saying that you would commit fully or not at all, and wouldn't go halfway is a very different response and a more understandable one. i still take issue with your original response tho

[Meuh]

Every single one of my scumreads is getting hard shielded by people and it is getting to be incredibly tiresome. I will try to find a working compromise but if that's not possible I'm going to mentally check out of this game.

Sigh.

I’m sorry.
Gorilla, Rhyme, meuh, Fire. Tell me who you want to be on and I’ll go with it.

I'll do whatever. Every single target is being met with utterly absurd resistance, so it makes me feel as though there's very little point in trying anymore. I'm frankly sick of it.

At this point I'd rather just let someone in the POE dictate the elimination, with the agreement that if they're wrong everyone should invictus them.

VOTE: Dunnnstral

This game isn't worth expending effort on.

I will be 0% surprised if this flips town regardless but at this point I consider it acceptable for game health.

This town fully deserves to lose for how it's played. The towns have either been absent and ineffectual, or have been hard shielding mafia. It is literally impossible to kill scum given the way people are playing.

If we actually manage to kill another scum from invictus, please come back to this day and kill whoever was shielding them as policy.

This 100% has "I am actively trying to bus my scum partner but the town won't even let me" vibes
Gorilla placing a vote on Dunn in the middle of the Enchant wagon while he made little to no effort to actually push Dunn is super weird, why didn't he do anything to make that lim happen earlier on in day 3? Like he did place a vote there but after the wagon died down he just didn't really do that much
and then he complained about me not pushing Dunn while scumreading him when he also saw Dunn get shielded by others?
I'm kind of perplexed

Even if he townreads Enchant there it's confusing why he was so unhappy with the wagon on them? Like Enchant was finally someone people could settle on, which considering what he said earlier should be a positive to him? But instead he makes sure to take a town!Enchant stance and mention Dunn being scum again so we make sure he doesn't support the mislim!! TMI TMI TMI TMI TMI

Also Gorilla seemingly is super disappointed nothing's happening and we have no unity as a town while also playing the least aggressively he has the entire game. It feels more like "wow this town is shit" than "wow, I'm so sad this town that I am a member of is doing poorly".

Dunn/Gorilla doesn't seem that unlikely to me
Though ig I'd have to look over their day 2 interactions
Though ig preflip associations bad

Also the "if we actually manage to kill another scum from invictus" is wild to me because we still had 3 invictus shots left and a lim pool Gorilla was actually satisfied with??
Like I don't remember his thoughts on Cakez, but I think he was iffy on Fey and also actively scumreading me and Dunn???
So considering the limpool we had wouldn't he think we'd invictus scum at some point? I think there's a mismatch there
2828 feels like a very scum pov post too

[fireisredsir]

I mean I lose when it’s like... pointed out I didn’t ~really commit~ and instead just focused on killing town. Like yeah sure this is all things I can just say but generally whenever I bus I bus to death and not like pithy half-measures.

i also think if you're scum with gamma here you probably expected to die before him based on the level of effort you're each putting in and how you're generally positioned, and so the bus from your end wouldn't be for the purpose of bussing to death, it would be for the sake of distancing

[gorilla]

VOTE: Meuh

There is no world whatsoever in which she is town. None. I will stake the game on this.

okay, everyone whose name isn't Bell or Kovu, full readslist of all remaining players (you do not need to include us or Bell) next time you're in thread please

~Rhyme

kovu
gammagooey
meuh
fey
fire
dunnstral

Interesting progression

Yes, go ahead, please strip out, context-free, the dozen posts of me arguing with her where I start to think that maybe I'm wrong.

[Meuh]

Also @R&R
second part of it is about teams but there's also just straight up reads

As for reads:
I see no reason to scumread Gamma here, but also I don’t strongly townread him. Fey is a big ? and tbh I would do anything just for a sliver of insight from the almighty R&R.
Dunn is scum just in like every way and if he isn’t I need to find a new career
Kovu is the towniest townie to ever town
I’ve started feeling mild doubts about Fire I don’t remember exactly when? Like somewhere between mid day 2 and the start of this day. Which sounds terrible considering the shade you’ve just cast upon him but meh
Before then I’ve just kinda been defaulting to “oh but 1500 post neighbourhood” which like fair but where tf else is scum??
Who else is in the game
Bell is Bell

Wait is that really it???
Ig it’s Dun and then 2 people in {Fey, Fire, Gamma, you}
I’d default to Dun/Fey/Fire at the moment tbh
The idea of neither of you or Fire being scum seems kind of insane to me at this point
Dun/Fey/Gamma does not really make sense
Maybe Dun/Gamma/Fire
Any way you cut it I think Dun’s scum so let’s please just finally lim him

[Fey]

I currently have my Invictus pointed squarely at Gamma and have had him in my solve since yesterday so... weird team concept.

this was your initial response though? you said that it didn't make sense as a team bc you had gamma in your solve since yesterday and you're saying he's your strongest scumread

saying that you would commit fully or not at all, and wouldn't go halfway is a very different response and a more understandable one. i still take issue with your original response tho

Saying “I have my Invictus pointed there” is a non-thing when someone tries to miselim me because they can just say “we can’t prove that.” It’s not compelling when it comes to material things but on instinct yeah I was like “if only they knew what I knewwww.” It’s not something that I think people will put stock into but it matters to me.

[gorilla]

This is so fucking tedious. Most of the people post are going to be scum bickering to muddy the waters and the towns are barely around to speak with.

[gorilla]

Gorilla/Fire/Dunn ggez

Pedit: your tone was 100% weird there

The notion that I've decided to bus my whole team while locked into a bodyguard claim is not remotely realistic or plausible.

[Fey]

This is so fucking tedious. Most of the people post are going to be scum bickering to muddy the waters and the towns are barely around to speak with.

This is a weird complaint.

[Fey]

Also @fire

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=87057

Read this for an example of how bussing with me happens. (Also note the setup in regards to me *choosing* to bus.)

[gorilla]

Meh.

I think Gamma and Gorilla are probably mafia. The former is actually I think the only mafia on the D1 Dwlee wagon compared to the main wagon having like 2 mafia on it, Gorilla off wagon voted from Marci to Lavar and then Lavar died. Also the night action stuff. IDK the last one.

Okay, then who's the third?

[Fey]

This is so fucking tedious. Most of the people post are going to be scum bickering to muddy the waters and the towns are barely around to speak with.

This is a weird complaint.

Like to expand. Grousing about having to interact with mafia is like... eh? Yes? This happens like every game?