Mafia Invictus Redux [Game Over]

[Kovu]

Alright, I am over this, we're waiting and waiting on... like 1 person who said they'd be gone for a few days, and to be fair neither hood has told me no, so Dunn. would you like to vote out meuh or gamma here? those are the 2 options

[Dunnstral]

Even if it wasn’t an explicit move off of Marci it’d mean the town numbers needed to flip onto anyone else just weren’t happening given the Dwlee wagon and marci not pushing more herself.

I'm not sure what you're saying here

[Dunnstral]

Alright, I am over this, we're waiting and waiting on... like 1 person who said they'd be gone for a few days, and to be fair neither hood has told me no, so Dunn. would you like to vote out meuh or gamma here? those are the 2 options

Between those two Meuh. I'm a bit worried they don't make sense as a gorilla partner, though, which is where I'd really like to elim today.

[Kovu]

Kovu
Fire
Gamma
Fey
Meuh
Gorilla

Something like this for me

@Kovu

yeah fire found that for me lol, I think you're town. and I'm not opposed to a meuh lim at all now, but if you'd prefer gamma... I would also go there. I'm not saying we have to rush a lim this very second, I'm just saying that I'm voting and if a lim happens, it's fine by me. cause if yall wanna wait for RR we can sit here staring at each other longer, but the state of this game is like, no one really doing anything.. and if we're gonna lim town, that'll happen, so yeah. meuh/gamma/fey is my read for the scum team. but based on my people I talk to, I think meuh/gamma is where we *all most agree
(*not all voices have weighed in)

[Kovu]

sounds good.

VOTE: Meuh

[Kovu]

Alright, I am over this, we're waiting and waiting on... like 1 person who said they'd be gone for a few days, and to be fair neither hood has told me no, so Dunn. would you like to vote out meuh or gamma here? those are the 2 options

Between those two Meuh. I'm a bit worried they don't make sense as a gorilla partner, though, which is where I'd really like to elim today.

gorilla is never being limmed here

[Dunnstral]

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?

Why always?

[Kovu]

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?

Why always?

cause meuh and gamma are wanting to bus fey since their push on you isn't working

[Meuh]

Hmm. imo Fey always flips scum in a scum!Gorilla world. Does anything else really make sense?

Why always?

Hmm more of a POE thing. The only alternative would be you/Gamma/Gorilla. I guess that makes some sense, no not always I suppose. Though Gorilla's stance on Fey on day 3 felt very partnered, so I actively think they have some equity.

Pedit:

[Kovu]

meuh and fey, yall are really good at this beetlejuice thing

[Fey]

Sure are.

[Kovu]

but yeah, @everyone, no one feel rushed to vote or whatever, but considering how no one did anything the past 24 hours, and I'm pretty sure the next 24 will also have a bunch of nothing, for the sake of this gamestate, I'm voting and telling yall where I wanna go, no one HAS to follow but yeah I'm staying here.

Meuh has been doing a lot of like "trying to tell you what you want to hear" as she talks to you, like, she told me, that me and gamma are her TRs, ok.. so that implies she has like 3 possible people for scum. yet is actively trying to push none of them. just this morning it was all "GAMMA IS MY TR!!" and then 3033, offers Gamma as a potential scum... like, if meuh isn't just trying to tell everyone what she thinks they want to hear? idk what she's doing or how she's playing, but it's definitely not playing in the best intentions of town

[Kovu]

Fey, is meuh maf?

[Meuh]

I'm willing to lim Gorilla here. He acted purely in self-preservation on day 2, it seems.
Is his power meaningful here, ever? I guess in the very specific world where we find the scum roleblocker (which must exist if Gorilla!town) soon, then he manages to correctly protect a townie, which slightly narrows the pool?
But that roleblocker still makes 0 sense to exist since Bell got to FN VPB.
That entire claim is a mess.
VOTE: Gorilla

Pedit: Wow Kovu, it's almost as if you're actively looking for more reasons to believe a scumteam you already think existed

Gamma!scum isn't an impossibility. It looks unlikely to me based on his personal gameplay but it's by no means impossible and considering I was using absolute language when saying Gorilla!scum meant Fey!scum, it was worth mentioning.

[Kovu]

The only alternative would be you/Gamma/Gorilla. I guess that makes some sense

just this morning you were all "gamma MUST be town" off just 1 post though? "this isn't gamma!scum" or whatever.. do we need to pull that quote back up of exactly what you said about your partner gamma?

[Fey]

Fey, is meuh maf?

Maybe? IDK.

[Kovu]

Meuh.. I found this interesting, you commented on 2611 twice, the first time you were very critical of what gamma said, then the second time in your explanation to me, you were like "it's townie logic" that is definitely NOT what you said the first time you read it... actually, I just saw that and I think it's a slip, so yeah. good job!! Gamma is Meuh's partner.

Not sure I really think Gamma is scum but I do think Enchant is, regardless.

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

The thing is that effort isn't really something you just assign players?
Like if scum ended up with none of the players in the game putting a very high amount of effort in, that doesn't mean suddenly one of them is going to change their playstyle for that purpose.
Scum might just be significantly losing rn, who knows? I don't see why we'd make the assumption they weren't.
It's optimal for scum to have high effort players yes but no one in the history of mafia has ever played a game optimally.

Meuh, who are you thinking is town right now and why?

Well I think you're town and I'm willing to just accept the loss if you aren't.

Tbh I'd say my second biggest townread here is Gamma. I don't recall their interactions with Marci particularly looking S/S. Also, none of Gamma's content actually looks scummy to me, and they have a few moments I think look good. Things like insisting to not vote until everyone checks in, or asking for a massclaim.
It's small stuff but I like it.

> I'd have to reread Gamma's post for bad intentions because I don't think it's inherently scummy.
You were just telling me gamma's posts were towny? like, what posts are you reading? I'm talking about day 4 gamma posts.. like there was even just a list of reads where I was at the bottom, doesn't take much reading to see that.. and my interactions with gamma today have been "why am I automatically maf cause you think there's a deepwolf" Like, why do I out my fire hood at day 2 start as scum? no benefit to outing it.

I was referring to Gamma's read on you. I don't think scumreading you is an inherently scummy thing. I think it's incorrect, yes, but not necessarily scummy.
I'm saying there's been moments of "oh, okay he's probably town" that I've had with Gamma, not that his posting overall has been townie. I'm kinda neutral on a lot of his posts iirc.

I don't think you're scum, I'm not arguing in favour of Gamma's logic. I think it's a bit silly to assume you're a deepwolf, but I also very much can see a townie get paranoid about one existing, and if so, you and Fire are the only candidates. Fire being a much more reasonable potential deepwolf, though. I think you've had too many moments that seemed very genuine to be scum, but I think your posting style of often switching up reads and votes, seemingly unprompted could be seem as scummy. (I'd assume a large part of this was because of hood discussion?) I've been called out for similar reasons in games before and I see the mindset behind it, and also know that it's very very often NAI or even town indicative. I'd even say it is for myself.

But I should probably properly take a look at Gamma's push against you. If his logic or tone is bad, then maybe he has ill-intentions here.

@Meuh - Dunn Fey and a deepwolf - probably one of fire/Kovu, and if I had to say this instant I'd say Kovu. I know that people will think that opinion is garbo but I really think that one scum has likely been putting a ton of effort into the game and set themselves up to actually live through the ridiculous number of Invictus shots this game has, because otherwise you're just asking to get gunned down halfway through the game by random Invictus shots.

Okay look at this, it's townie logic. The only scenario where I see Gamma push you as scum like this is if he's very desperate and also partnered with Fire. (Pushing you over Fire would be bad if you and Fire were town/town.) But those 2 things seem contradictory. A Gamma/Fire/anyone else team was - and imo still is - lined up for a win. So I just don't see scum!Gamma saying this.

I do see town!Gamma saying it though. Being scared, seeing the gamestate as worse for town than it realistically is, and having a scumread on someone who clearly isn't going to get limmed anytime soon seems like ridiculous scum play. Wouldn't the best angle for scum!Gamma to go with like, actually to just try to pocket you?

2231 this is just so good. Like is it very likely wrong? Yes. Is it genuine and coming from someone trying to solve? Also yes. 2411 too. This is not a push being made by scum.
The read evolves naturally, doesn't benefit a scum agenda and Gamma's posts on the topic have good tone. I townread him more now tbh

>I barely had a read on Gamma before day 3, I was just like "he's around enough and doesn't look scummy so I'm willing to accept he's town for now"
This is literally just saying "you're town for coasting" like.. yeah, why do you think we can't recall ANYTHING from gamma until here where the lim actually matters? Like, just being around, but not standing out? that doesn't scream scum to you? scum is trying to blend in. especially with invictus, like, scum doesn't want to be standing out, think about marci. marci wasn't really standing out, was all buddy buddy with you, but was avoiding anything controversial, and once marci went "hot take, kovu maf" I tunneled her, and she died. like, scum sees that, and goes "ok... just gonna blend in" cause town is shooting low poe, or taking a hero shot.

Nonono, I'm not saying he's town for coasting. He didn't stick out to

me

, and me specifically. He played relatively visibly and actively, I think.
If I thought he was deliberately trying to fade in and not draw too much attention to himself I'd find it scummy, but that's not the impression I got. The idea of him fading in makes even less sense with Marci!scum, since why would he deliberately 1v1 with her if he was trying to stay in the background?
My point was that his posts specifically didn't stick to me, they specifically didn't really catch my eye or had me think about them much.
To note that the main other 2 people who I felt similarly about, Datisi and Val, were both town. It's a personal thing that explains my own read, I'm not saying Gamma was trying to fade in.
I think your point about how scum want to disappear and not draw much attention makes sense, especially considering the setup. I'm saying I don't think it really applies to Gamma. Though actually, looking at it now; his post count is strikingly low. His content to post ratio is significant, but still I thought he had made more. I guess not.

See, I don't like the concept of "lim these 3 in any order, if wrong, just go here" like, at this point in the game we need actual reads, cause surely you know you're in the list of "just lim these people, if wrong go elsewhere" like, if we lim town, and invictus town here, we lose. game over. And people need to at least try here, and if you're not putting in an effort to find maf, you need to at least work on proving your towniness... and that goes for all town here, cause we have exactly a 0% chance of winning if town doesn't wanna try.

This is fair, I've been pretty lazy. We're a group and me throwing out an order of action isn't productive. There's no reason for people to stick to it, and even if they do the mafia might have some PR in their back pocket just to obliterate us, which would suck and derail any plans. Plus you guys reading me accurately would be nice!

[Meuh]

The only alternative would be you/Gamma/Gorilla. I guess that makes some sense

just this morning you were all "gamma MUST be town" off just 1 post though? "this isn't gamma!scum" or whatever.. do we need to pull that quote back up of exactly what you said about your partner gamma?

Individual reads and scumteam reads are different things, sadly.
Gamma as an individual looks much more townie than the others, but because of the limited pool of possible scum, he might just have to be scum for other reasons.
If Fire is just town (since both you and Bell say so I'm just willing to believe that for the time being), that leaves Gorilla/Gamma/Dunn/Fey. Gorilla/Dunn/Fey is very possible, but literally 75% of the team combinations here involve Gamma. (As do the others left here)

[Kovu]

Individual reads and scumteam reads are different things, sadly.

uhh I'm not putting my TRs on any scumteam read I have... that's literally the entire point of having TRs... you remove them from the equation, then the team is left in the remaining people

[Kovu]

but literally 75% of the team combinations here involve Gamma. (As do the others left here)

I am aware... literally why I was like, "yo meuh gamma is definitely maf" and all morning you were just defending gamma, and only after you realized, if gamma was town, you basically have your set team to push, but you can't push dunn now? can that's just not a popular thought. there's a very clear agenda to this, ans simple answer is, you weren't prepared to have to bus gamma right here cause gamma is the sole person carrying the scum team right now. I just don't see town making a complete 180 on the same post they read and made comments on... without acknowledging themselves "I SRed it before, but TR it now" your progression has not been towny, and I'm very happy ending today on voting you out

[Meuh]

Meuh.. I found this interesting, you commented on 2611 twice, the first time you were very critical of what gamma said, then the second time in your explanation to me, you were like "it's townie logic" that is definitely NOT what you said the first time you read it... actually, I just saw that and I think it's a slip, so yeah. good job!! Gamma is Meuh's partner.

Yeah, cause Gamma's logic that there must be a deepwolf was wrong, and I disagreed with it, that's what stuck out to me then. Things like that are things I notice on almost every posts, the basic premise being presented is what sticks to me, my brain was not in "hey, is Gamma town over this" mode.

Recently I've wanted to take a good look at Gamma's push on you and when I took a look, that post stuck out to me as being based in townie logic. That's not something I noticed on my first read of it, but looking back on it specifically focused on the push on you and the posts made leading up to it, it looked good.

I looked at the post at different times, focused on different aspects of them, with a different mentality, and unsurprisingly different things stuck out to me about it.

[Meuh]

I bet scum are happily watching this conversation happen. Blegh.

[fireisredsir]

i don't think we need to end day super early, but im with kovu here, i still think that meuh's progressions just don't make town sense and are shifting based on what is convenient to her at the time

VOTE: Meuh

[gorilla]

Pool:
1. Gorilla.
2. Fey.
3. Dunnstral.
4. Gamma.
5. Meuh.

No order.

My reads are terrible this game,

currently I'm inclined toward a Gorilla, Fey, and Gamma scum team.

Hey. You listen up.

You can kill me today if you want. That's fine. But if you do that, you kill dunnstral, fey, meuh, and fire in that order. You do not goddamn touch gammagooey this game. Is that understandable?

[Kovu]

Yeah, cause Gamma's logic that there must be a deepwolf was wrong,

how do you know there's not a deepwolf?

and I disagreed with it

right....

Okay look at this, it's townie logic.

"I disagreed with it" cause we call things townie logic we disagree with...

my brain was not in "hey, is Gamma town over this" mode.

really? cause I even told you that's how your posts were reading.. I was giving you my genuine points for why I SRed Gamma, and your response was basically "no! gamma town!!"

Recently I've wanted to take a good look at Gamma's push on you and when I took a look, that post stuck out to me as being based in townie logic. That's not something I noticed on my first read of it, but looking back on it specifically focused on the push on you and the posts made leading up to it, it looked good.

it looked good that gamma was pushing me for bussing marci for town cred? in hindsight it looks good gamma is only pushing the 1 person who really led the wagon on our 1 flipped scum? THAT looks great in hindsight? Cause you also read my posts, which gamma ignored about, if the plan was to truly bus marci, why did I not do it day 1? I wasn't on that day 1 wagon at any point..

I looked at the post at different times, focused on different aspects of them, with a different mentality, and unsurprisingly different things stuck out to me about it.

I mean, when I was telling you gamma was my #1 sr, and your gut reaction to that was to just be all "GAMMA IS MY TR!!" and refuse to even hear my case basically, and now you're all "yeah gamma maf!!" I just have a really hard time believing, you're genuinely trying to find maf here, and this gamma thing truly feels like a last minute panic...