Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[Shoshin]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

[FancyPants]

Kenny's first post was bad, but the rest of his interactions with FancyPants feels TvT. In particular,

I feel like pushing FancyPants, who I think several people have said are town, feels like going against the grain in a way that I don't think new scum would do.

I actually agree with this voting me was the most town thing Kenny has done, however I continually pushed him on why I was scum and he never came up with a satisfactory answer.

Almost everyone in this game has made one post that is townie, this is Kenny being accidentally town. Hang him.

@CW, I know you don't like explaining usually but I'm trying to figure the game, would you do me a favour and explain why you think Loft is town?

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

[Loftwing]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

[MalcolmTucker]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

I really don't get what is "virtue-signally" about it, other than the fact you decided I was scum after two posts, one of which was "hello", and have latched onto that. It's a pretty simple post where I give other players some details I've been asked for with the intention of being helpful.

[Confidently Wrong]

Kenny's first post was bad, but the rest of his interactions with FancyPants feels TvT. In particular,

I feel like pushing FancyPants, who I think several people have said are town, feels like going against the grain in a way that I don't think new scum would do.

I actually agree with this voting me was the most town thing Kenny has done, however I continually pushed him on why I was scum and he never came up with a satisfactory answer.

Almost everyone in this game has made one post that is townie, this is Kenny being accidentally town. Hang him.

@CW, I know you don't like explaining usually but I'm trying to figure the game, would you do me a favour and explain why you think Loft is town?

Vibes and meta baybee

[Confidently Wrong]

CW I'm very curious who you are but I'm also enjoying the mystery so don't feel like you need to share. But also I still can't read you really

We have never played together. At least on your current account

[Shoshin]

It explained why there was nothing of substance in terms of reads, because there was nothing in terms of reads. In terms of general thoughts, there is substance in their earlier posts.

So you vote Kenny for lack of substance despite lots of words. Then you unvote because Kenny confirms lots of words with no reads but that suddenly you found substance to his posts in the form of general thoughts. Why didn't these general thoughts matter before?

[MalcolmTucker]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

Aware it'll feel like we're picking on you Loftwing, and I'm guilty of plenty hedgy, obvious posts myself...but this post from you really feels like it's saying nothing at all. It reads like an attempt to be helpful to town but basically tells us that Kenny is giving us their thoughts with an earlier post...which seems self-explanatory to me.

[MalcolmTucker]

To add - it's also a post that's received plenty of attention, so it's not as if we missed it or anything.

[Shoshin]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

I really don't get what is "virtue-signally" about it, other than the fact you decided I was scum after two posts, one of which was "hello", and have latched onto that. It's a pretty simple post where I give other players some details I've been asked for with the intention of being helpful.

Didn't you call this post "helpful"? Yet you said nothing helpful at all. To me it looks like you were trying to appear helpful while offering confusing unclear information about your alignment preferences.

[Loftwing]

I'm currently at work now, so replies will be sparser.

[MalcolmTucker]

Post 35. Weird virtue-signaling plus scummy wording ("actually probably" isn't how I picture town describing their alignment preferences).

What's the virtue signaling? Is it the last sentence?

The whole post.

I really don't get what is "virtue-signally" about it, other than the fact you decided I was scum after two posts, one of which was "hello", and have latched onto that. It's a pretty simple post where I give other players some details I've been asked for with the intention of being helpful.

Didn't you call this post "helpful"? Yet you said nothing helpful at all. To me it looks like you were trying to appear helpful while offering confusing unclear information about your alignment preferences.

It's helpful in that it states when I am available, and also states that I enjoy playing scum. That's useful info potentially because some players, when scum, are less invested and don't enjoy it as much. I'm also clear that if I'm playing a game I'm not enjoying or that I'm not invested in then I tend to disconnect a bit more and I'm typically less active. I really do not understand what your gripe with me here is over this.

[Irrelephant11]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

"Irrelephant - scumlean but not with shoshin
BBT - town
FancyPants - town
Frederick - null
Eiralox - null
CSF - null
Loftwing - null/scumlean?
Lowell - null/scumlean?
Kenny - town (?????)
Shoshin - scumlean but not with irrelephant
Mala - null"

This is a lot of words to say very little. I know I asked for a readslist, but this was p disappointing, especially since I think "Irrelephant is townleaning Shoshin based on meta --> he's definitely pocketing her" doesn't feel like a real read fmpov, though I'm biased

[Irrelephant11]

So here are my thoughts about the game so far.

There is Eiralox who voted and changed votes twice very early in the game.

I made a (in my eyes) fun comment about this. I know it is RVS, so those vote changes are very likely a thing of trying to beating around the bush in hope of someone reacting to being voted.

FancyPants tries to push me for this comment. This feels wierd. But maybe it is because they are torn pants (thanks Irrelephant for that pun).

The most fascinating thing about Irrelephant is, that Shoshin is probably town. Not that I think Shoshin is scum, but I don't see how he should have gained the towncred.

ConfidentlyWrongs selfvote in the early RVS is NAI for me. As mentioned by someone else earlier (too lazy to look it up again) this seems to be a humoristic approach (haha).

BlueBloodedToffee pushing CW for the selfvote and then, when the waggon didn't get on track too well, hopping on the CSF waggon seems fishy.

I don't see why CSF deserves the waggon that's now going on.

Everyone else is just a blank card for me right now.

This is a window into what Kenny was thinking, and it shows that they wish to contribute to the gamestate even if they have little to no reads. It highlights what they consider to be important events up to this point, and it would be wise to study it in depth to catch a glimpse of Kenny's pov

Aware it'll feel like we're picking on you Loftwing, and I'm guilty of plenty hedgy, obvious posts myself...but this post from you really feels like it's saying nothing at all. It reads like an attempt to be helpful to town but basically tells us that Kenny is giving us their thoughts with an earlier post...which seems self-explanatory to me.

303 was a response to my question to him, so he didn't decide to say this out of thin air

[Cat Scratch Fever]

CW have you played with me before? The locktown read felt like it came out of nowhere. You don't have to reveal who you are, just a y/n is fine.

Kenny, why is Fancy scum for pushing an early scumread? Town will make mountains out of molehills early on, and they're liable to be wrong since info is limited. Why is that not descriptive of Fancy's play here?

[MalcolmTucker]

Anyway, a reads list so far.

Confidently Wrong - I think they're probably town. Their reaction to getting some votes early on felt genuine and there wasn't much panic at all. While I've not necessarily agreed with all their reads since then I feel like they're coming from a genuine place. Doesn't feel like a player opportunistically picking sides or trying to force the game in a particular direction to suit their own direction.

Irrelephant - As stated I feel like their interactions with Shoshin so far could be an attempt to pocket. The vote on me despite no suspicion followed by backing off right away didn't sit well. Feel like there's a lot of mechanical posts about what scum would/wouldn't do that can seem helpful but aren't necessarily advancing the game or giving us content.

BBT - Disagreed with their push on Confidently Wrong but felt like overzealous town. Their switch to voting CSF felt a bit bold if they are scum. Think BBT is town just trying to get the game going and feel players out.

FancyPants - Main town-read so far. Well-thought out posts. Solid job at interrogating other players without necessarily tunnelling them.

Frederick - Fairly neutral on this slot so far, boring though that is. No particularly unreasonable pushes, nothing that convinces me they are town yet either though.

Eiralox - Bit of a lack of genuine content here so far. Hard slot to read, kinda jokey, no meta on them to tell whether this is consistent.

CSF - I often find CSF hard to read for some reason and this game is no different. Nothing to make me think they're scum yet but aware they're a very capable player, the type of slot that can blend in well on D1 if scum.

Loftwing - Not sure I like the "I don't have reads" approach. Could quite easily be lazy scum trying to coast by. Especially given the sudden vote and unvote on Kenny. Felt opportunistic, as if they were aware coasting by wasn't going to work.

Lowell - A bit like Loftwing, not much genuine content so far and their reasoning for their suspects felt pretty weak to me.

Kenny - I'm gut-reading Kenny as town at the moment. The wagon on them felt quick and opportunistic. Their response to being suspected felt like townie frustration, albeit the vote on FancyPants gave me pause. I liked them suspecting Shoshin when being given a TR themselves, I'd expect scum under pressure to accept that TR without question.

Shoshin - Their read on me is really poor and feels like they're twisting evidence to suit a conclusion they want more than one that's genuine. Either one of Shoshin/Irrelephant is scum for me, but not together.

Malakittens - Reminds me of the lack game we played together where they were town. Hard player to read. Do need more from them though.

"Irrelephant - scumlean but not with shoshin
BBT - town
FancyPants - town
Frederick - null
Eiralox - null
CSF - null
Loftwing - null/scumlean?
Lowell - null/scumlean?
Kenny - town (?????)
Shoshin - scumlean but not with irrelephant
Mala - null"

This is a lot of words to say very little. I know I asked for a readslist, but this was p disappointing, especially since I think "Irrelephant is townleaning Shoshin based on meta --> he's definitely pocketing her" doesn't feel like a real read fmpov, though I'm biased

See this is why I'm sometimes wary of readlists. If you're scum I've basically just walked into a trap where you were going to intentionally try to discredit me no matter what I said.

How does it say "very little"? Loftwing is clearly closer to a scum-read than null given any generous interpretation of this. Having three players you think are scum with at least four town-reads in there is not saying nothing at all, especially when I've given reasons for why some players are null. You've also conveniently excluded Confidently Wrong in your own reply list, who I've stated I think is town.

We're a few days into the game, I think everyone should have formed plenty of opinions by now but anyone who says they have a confident read of basically every player participating. I'd much rather be honest and admit areas where I'm blank instead of lying and making up a false read out of nowhere.

[MalcolmTucker]

As an example on the above readslist, Mala has made a total of five posts so far, most of which were incredibly brief. Anyone claiming they have a completely confident read on that slot so far is bluffing or lying. I'm not going to pretend I have a confident view on whether Mala is town/scum just for some cred from a player who might be scum anyway.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'll go first then

FancyPants
BBT, Frederick, Malcolm
Shoshin, Malakittens, Lowell, Eiralox
Confidently Wrong, Cat Scratch Fever --- null
Loftwing
kenny

Hmmm I have too many townreads probably

Looking back at Irrelephant's read-list as well, it's a bizarre criticism to get at me for having null-reads when they're in the exact same boat, with one of those nulls being completely identical. He also admits he probably has too many town-reads as well, which might as well be an admission some of those supposed town-reads should probably be moved down to the null slot.

[Confidently Wrong]

As an example on the above readslist, Mala has made a total of five posts so far, most of which were incredibly brief. Anyone claiming they have a completely confident read on that slot so far is bluffing or lying. I'm not going to pretend I have a confident view on whether Mala is town/scum just for some cred from a player who might be scum anyway.

believe it or not people can make reads on people with under 10 posts that are confident and accurate. i know you have little confidence but if you actually committed to reads more you'd put better pressure on scum with your play. that is to say i find your play matching your town play more than anything.

[MalcolmTucker]

As an example on the above readslist, Mala has made a total of five posts so far, most of which were incredibly brief. Anyone claiming they have a completely confident read on that slot so far is bluffing or lying. I'm not going to pretend I have a confident view on whether Mala is town/scum just for some cred from a player who might be scum anyway.

believe it or not people can make reads on people with under 10 posts that are confident and accurate. i know you have little confidence but if you actually committed to reads more you'd put better pressure on scum with your play. that is to say i find your play matching your town play more than anything.

I have a tendency to be wrong as town though. In the past I've twice been the player with what was essentially the casting vote in a final three and on both occasions I got it wrong. Town get it wrong all the time. I'd rather acknowledge that in my play rather than pretend I'm completely confident at this early stage as to where I am.

I'd also disagree I'm not putting much pressure on anyone either. I'm applying pressure to Irrelephant with some of the above posts and have done so beforehand as well. You can see me questioning Loftwing on the past couple of pages.

[MalcolmTucker]

Not trying to out your alt CW, and you don't have to answer, but have we played before, and would you say your usual style matches how you're approaching this game?

[MalcolmTucker]

*played together, that is

[Irrelephant11]

I am not trying to antagonize you, MT. You're right, I missed that you townread CW. That does make me feel a bit better. It was not a trap, I'm not suddenly voting you or trying to get you elimmed. If you didn't have many strong reads, though, you could have said as much, or at the very least written a whole lot less. It struck me at first as scum trying to gain townpoints by complying with a townie's request and writing lots of words, though perhaps the fact that we're now arguing means that wasn't really your intent, seeing as I'd be the townie most likely to townread you off complying

When I said I had too many townreads I meant scum has probably slipped into my townpool, btw

[MalcolmTucker]

I am not trying to antagonize you, MT. You're right, I missed that you townread CW. That does make me feel a bit better. It was not a trap, I'm not suddenly voting you or trying to get you elimmed. If you didn't have many strong reads, though, you could have said as much, or at the very least written a whole lot less. It struck me at first as scum trying to gain townpoints by complying with a townie's request and writing lots of words, though perhaps the fact that we're now arguing means that wasn't really your intent, seeing as I'd be the townie most likely to townread you off complying

When I said I had too many townreads I meant scum has probably slipped into my townpool, btw

I'd rather elaborate on why I null-read someone, even if it's rather basic, instead of just making a basic list. I personally find it much easier for scum to come up with a basic list that makes them look more decisive - in this case I'd have potentially been less likely to attract a negative response had I just groped, say, Frederick and Cat into my townpool, for example, but that would've been dishonest because I don't have a confident read on them yet. Ultimately I only null-read 4/12 players, with the rest either scum/town reads or leans. I don't think that's unreasonable.