Mini 2273: Science Diagrams That Look Like Shitposts 2 [END]

[gibus]

Oh I get the thirty-second post? What an honor... What to do with it do? Give a speech? Randomly vote? Claim to be a town leader and get shot night one? So many choices.

I'll stick with the basics though.

VOTE: Crescent

... I'll make a better vote later.

[gibus]

@Gibus
Why did you vote Crescent if you said that your vote was ''bad''?

as a dog person, I say we lynch all cat people

[gibus]

What is your view on the idea of eliminating a lurky player D1?

dumb

And can I interest you in another wagon? There's a new and small one on Elsa but I'm a dog person -

man say no more
VOTE: Elsa

[gibus]

Feeling that something is scummy/towny using guts is normal, but assigning a ''performative'' value to something you're not even sure is meaningful feels more like he's making things up.

Not too sure about this. What exactly isn't meaningful here?

[gibus]

Feeling that something is scummy/towny using guts is normal, but assigning a ''performative'' value to something you're not even sure is meaningful feels more like he's making things up.

Could you rephrase this for me?
How is it scummy to suggest a forced read is performative?

[gibus]

How is it different from your own read?
Maybe vivax's "performance" is only a chip in a potential pile and not significant by itself?

[gibus]

I can pressure someone without voting for them. There's not exactly a lot of posts to go on so far, but from what I've seen you are obvscum.

I will not pay any attention to people's pressure unless it is backed up by a vote, it is just posturing otherwise. If it ain't jn a vote count I will totally forget it ever existed

This suggests he could find such a thing "performative", but he never once accuses anyone in the game of such a thing. Not even me, when I pressured a few on day 1 but voted none of them.

To immediately jump to George's defense is a more stark contrast to last game than I've been thinking it is.

In his defense, GB didn't really seem like he was forcing a casual entrance to me. The accusation does come off as quite strange.

[gibus]

Gibus, I don't understand what's your point.

Are you trying to read my slot or the accuracy of my read?

Well, I can't join you in your pursuit if I'm not convinced.
It would be nice if your responses turn out ai tho.

[gibus]

I've got nothing new to bring to the table except that the case on ger is flimsy as hell

[gibus]

Interestingly enough, an ISO of Gibus shows he defended Gera and George at the same time but otherwise has done virtually nothing this game.

And to look further... Both Gera and Gibus have both defended George at one point, and Gibus/Gera have defended each other at one point. Them all being scum would be too easy, but there is a very very high chance there's at least one scum in Gera and Gibus buddying up here.

Or just town genuinely confused by bad reasoning. Not sure how you'd differentiate.

[gibus]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Really just coincidence.

[gibus]

Spoiler:

Alrighty. Making my own tentative list of townies and scum.

People who are probs good

Crescent
Vivax
Umlaut
Alex
Eiralox
Clidd

Peeps who need more analysis

Corwin
Goldfish
George
Owen
Gera

If they die I wouldn't mind

NotMaf
Gibus

Clidd's position here does bother me.
Could you walk me through your read?

[gibus]

I've got nothing new to bring to the table except that the case on ger is flimsy as hell

Can you atleast tell us why you're still voting Elsa? Popping in to shade a wagon and then saying you have nothing to add, while on a wagon you're not actively pushing says you're on a vanity wagon.

90 really only gained credibility over time.
And her read on clidd was premature.

[gibus]

I should point out that the games clidd mentioned were a lot more fast paced than this one. Not sure if the meta read is very accurate.
I'd much rather elim Elsa over ger if it were up to me.

[gibus]

I should point out that the games clidd mentioned were a lot more fast paced than this one. Not sure if the meta read is very accurate.
I'd much rather elim Elsa over ger if it were up to me.

ok but if not Elsa then where would your vote be atm?

What's your reads on Crescent, George, and Corwinoid?

No idea. GB I guess?
I don't want to sound like I'm white knighting ger, but his vote based on the 2 posts feels rushed and panicky.
It'd make sense for him to divert all that attention asap as scum. Just a feeling though.

[gibus]

That said... I actually can't find a scum/scum motive there. I don't understand what my purpose would be in voting for him only to have him immediately post after because that would serve no value but to make him look worse. It's better just to nudge him into doing something without the theatrics because it gets him scum equity and reflects null on me. It's a net negative.

This gives me strong town vibes

[gibus]

Unofficial Vote Count

GeorgeBailey (2):

Not_Mafia, Eiralox

Corwinoid (2):

UNOwen, vivax

geraintm (2):

clidd, GeorgeBailey

gibus (1):

Elsa Jay

clidd (1):

geraintm

Not_Mafia (1):

GoldfishFromTheMoon

UNOwen (1):

Corwinoid

Elsa Jay (1):

gibus

Not voting (2):

Crescent, Alexcellent

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-12 13:13:00)

[gibus]

Still an 8 way vote split huh.

The top 3 trains though... Cannot say any of them are particularly bad. Got one probable scum, and two guys with lingering scum equity that could definitely still give us more than they have.

We now have THREE pairs of people countervoting though: Elsa/Gibus, Clidd/Gera, Uno/Corwi. Many of these votes came a long time ago, too. I'd like to hear a renewed argument from both Elsa and Gibus about why their votes are still there. Uno's spoken on it lately, Corwi countervoted because he got... Tired of it? Gera blatantly countered on Clidd, then called it "random" (sure. "random".) and has left it sitting there while shading me. But these two? I need more out of these two.

I'm not sure I've ever seen so much countervoting as I have so far this game.

I've got nothing new to bring to the table except that the case on ger is flimsy as hell

Can you atleast tell us why you're still voting Elsa? Popping in to shade a wagon and then saying you have nothing to add, while on a wagon you're not actively pushing says you're on a vanity wagon.

90 really only gained credibility over time.
And her read on clidd was premature.

Gotta add that her insistence on policy limming me with 2 days to go and 2 other SRs is very anti town.

[gibus]

VOTE: Corwinoid

[gibus]

Speaking of Gibus, I do find it interesting that Gibus' only chiming in on this was a vote ok Corwin with no words.

Would like to see something of his own argument instead of just plopping down vote #4 silently.

I just want to see blood

[gibus]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[gibus]

L-1;

[gibus]

RIP Corwin wagon.

George should claim in his next post.

Is this intent to hammer?

[gibus]

Unofficial Vote Count 2

GeorgeBailey (6):

Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Alexcellent, Crescent, gibus, Vivax

UNOwen (3):

clidd, Elsa Jay, GeorgeBailey

Corwinoid (1):

UNOwen

Crescent (1):

geraintm

Vivax (1):

Corwinoid

Not voting (0):

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-12 13:13:00)

[gibus]

Of course Cres decided to ignore the crumbs from our PR and made him reveal. Great going there.

What crumbs

[gibus]

Detective, I can see if someone performed a Nightkill during the night or a previous one.

how does this clear people as town

[gibus]

1 scum down
gn town

[gibus]

sure, but a negative result doesn't clear someone as town

[gibus]

VOTE: Goldfish, Not_Mafia, geraint

[gibus]

VOTE: geraintm
Will catch up in a bit

[gibus]

Man that was a very busy week. Here are some thoughts on the start of D2.

Spoiler:

Speaking of which, does anyone know why this image is in Alex's ISO? ^

I don't, but maybe you do.

Ok, that's a crumb probably would be my best guess.

Methinks this is a bit too laid back to come from scum.
Mafia try not to leave any vulnerabilities in their posts, and discussing pr crumbs is an easy target for being anti town.
Could be calculated but considering the timing of his response, idt that's likely.

Spoiler:

I'm assuming that the scum team didn't actually know Unowen's alignment given he's a traitor

Clidd is an interesting kill. RIP Clidd and George. Sorry for the bad read on you George.
I'm going to have to review some stuff but I sorta felt weird about Clidd/Elsa throughout D1. Not sure how Clidd's death affects things. Elsa is still high up there for me I think.
Def want pressure on Goldfish today. Felt a lot of apprehension and not a lot of scumhunting from her D1.

Nothing super exciting jumps out at me from a glance at Unowen's ISO. He voted Corwin all day long until he hammered George. Maybe worth noting he asked Elsa for an opinion on Corwin and seemed very interested in the answer to the point of repeatedly questioning her. Maybe that's a traitor trying to find out what his scum companion thinks without being able to directly communicate? But also it's admittedly pretty loose. It just kind of jumps out at me because of him repeatedly directing the question her way. And then there's this:

I don't think Elsa suggesting she didn't give me any further thought until now after my lame response to her initial poke is a good sign for her alignment.

Also this is prob worth noting:

I really want to know what your fascination with me is.

I think you're scum.

Does the traitor super bus his scum buddy all D1 long like this? I know this is WIFOMy but I like getting it out into the open. Felt like Owen would have stayed on that wagon and IMO Corwin was at genuine risk of being eliminated yesterday until George wagon got bigger. I feeeeeel like that makes me slightly more leaning town on Corwin. But yeah, WIFOM.

Owen's insistence by itself is wifom sure, but I like Corwin's response.
Quoting the wiki page on traitors:

"identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists"

If corwin is scum, wouldn't it have been better play for him to first ponder over whether this was a signalling attempt or not? Instead there's an immediate OMGUS with 0 hesitation or reconsiderations later.

Won't say who yet but reading the last four pages made 2 people move up in my town list and 1 down. I'm here to interact all day as well.

Where is Corwin on your list and why?

I really want to know what your fascination with me is. Since your RVS vote you haven't even looked anywhere else or engaged meaningfully with any other slot in the game. Seriously, what's going on here?

VOTE: UNOwen

Spoiler:

What makes you think NM is town?

Because there's a 75% chance he's not scum. None of his activity has moved that.

This also is a good post from corwin altho I don't agree with the sentiment. He made it clear that his stance on null players is that they are town by default based on probabilities, meaning scum!him won't be able to push any policy elims on them in the future. Basically the opposite of keeping his options open.

I've got a good townread on this slot so far.

Spoiler:

I'm perfectly happy to die on this hill. Are you?

Better for me to be alive and hunt your partner, but it's perfectly fine town to trade me for scum this early when we've already got one too.

VOTE: Vivax

To anyone still scumreading corwin - pause for a second and explain to me why scum would EVER in a million years continue to death tunnel someone more trusted in this situation?
Wasn't that what got him so close to an elimination yesterday? And to keep doing the same as scum with only 1 teammate left.. No way.

[gibus]

Corw v Vivax is 90% TvT.
I'm p sure scum picked sides somewhere in between.

[gibus]

All of that to explain a town read on someone under 0 pressure.

Cool.

Who is scum?

I'm still behind by.. a lot.
Based on poe tho, both scum have to exist within Not_maf, geraint, Elsa, and goldfish.

[gibus]

thanks gibus ; ) i haven't walked yet fml so quick questions before i do: Thoughts on Crescent, Toffee, gera and Elsa? Toffee wants you dead, right now you're second on my list(sorta) so would appreciate feedback.

Crescent was almost confTown to me so I;m surprised her wagon got to e-3

[gibus]

Gibus isn't scum hunting.

His entrance into the game felt too try hard to be jokey/flowy (really hard to explain this, 35 and 97) and his questions are just basic and don't actually lead anywhere (post]179[/post] 229
242 Scum looking for town to give him direction in the game. Adds the bit about hoping it's AI to appear town.

The point of 179 and 229 was to highlight the fact that clidd's read on geraint was contradictory. I didn't think this necessarily meant clidd was scum, hence 242.
And yes, I spent countless hours and many sleepless nights trying to come up with my entrance. You've got strong instinct my fren.

100 posts and 4 pages later, returns to the game after;

Eira saying Gibus/Cres could be scum/scum
Clidd has him as scum in a RL
A NM wagon happened
Eira pushes crescent for her TR on Gibus
No interest in Vivax's attempted deflection of NM/Gibus wagons

Then pops back into game when a wagon starts forming on him with nothing new to add. How?

> Not sure what I can infer from Cres mistaking my vote.
> Clidd had me as null. Not unexpected.
> And NM gave us nothing.
> Nothing to infer here. My vote on cres wasn't serious.
> Not alignment indicative to ask for reads outside of the policy lim pile.

354 Random posts like this - why is Clidd the most important part of this reads-list? He follows up with 414 where he questions Elsa's premature read on Clidd. If this pings him, why doesn't he question Crescent's premature read on him? Happy to have the town read, I'm guessing... He also uses an early-game Alex post to justify his vote remaining on Elsa (page 4 reasoning on page 17). To me, this shows no progression of reads/processing of any new information.

Because it could be argued that clidd's read on geraint was formed in bad faith. Nothing in his iso stood out as town, meaning there's a good chance the trs on him were fabricated. Elsa was already on my hit list so, why not?
In hindsight, I should have been more vocal about my townreads, since those are part of what intensified my scumreads.

Then the new stuff like showing why he town reads someone. Like, why? As scum, he already knows who is town so forming and justifying town reads is very easy. But why Corwin? It's not like the slot was under pressure or whatever, it's just a content post for the sake of it to look like he has reads.

This is the best I can do with someone who has 30 posts in over 50 pages

It was context for why I think Corw v vivax was TvT.
I'm sure it's a step in the right direction.

[gibus]

Gibus wanting to elim GB in 425 literally came from nowhere.

This is a really bad post.

Why is it a bad post?
If you think 100 posts were enough to develop proper scumreads, explain how I should, in good faith, feel that GB's reasoning in 400 is genuine.

[gibus]

OK, so if the contradiction in Clidd's read on Gera didn't affect your read on Clidd as you wasn't sure if it was AI, then why mention it in the first place? It's a post just to look busy, as I said, not leading anywhere.

Point from 242 still applies, you're looking for direction instead of creating your own.

To see how his reads progress? Or how ger's wagon progresses? It might even be useful for post flip analysis?
At least it lead to my suspicion of clidd's placement in elsa rl.

Do you really think it's not towny to doubt questionable reads and see what follows?

I was talking about Eira saying you could be scum w/ Crescent. Why would you not question/interact with this?

Like I said, I get where Eira was coming from. Cres, as far as I understood, didn't register my vote on Elsa, which lead to some strange consequences in her wording. This was settled in the very next post.

There was a wagon forming on NM - you acted as if it didn't exist. No opinion on it at all.

Nope. I'd be surprised if he wasn't pushed for reads at some point or the other.

I'm not talking about your vote on Crescent. I'm talking about Crescent townreading you for your vote and you didn't question it whatsoever. My problem is with you just accepting someone townreading you for such a poor reason. Scum like to be town read, town are interested in how people form reads. You showed the former.

Wrong. If I'd accepted Cres's reason for townreading me, I'd have come up with some bs to justify my random vote earlier.
I made it clear that I think dogs make superior pets and anyone who disagrees should be policy limmed.

Again, Vivax is talking about moving wagons away from you/NM. Don't you want to know why?

Was he? All I remember was him asking for reads outside me/NM. Which makes sense since it doesn't help progress the gamestate if we're deadset on discussing policy lims.

My point is that a fair bit not only happened in the 4 pages between your posts, but there was a decent amount that was actually relevant to you. Given you had no direction in the game, as your 'GB I guess?' post indicated, why would you not pick up and run with one of these things?

^

Again, it could be argued that Crescent's read on you was formed in bad faith -

but you just accepted it.

^

Corwin was under no pressure so maybe try explai why the guy with 4 votes is town over the guy with none? Or, even better, maybe try to come up with some scum reads?

Dude. I'm still reading. Scum would have 100% picked sides during the tvt. I've already got a pool of players I think are scum, so be patient pls.

425 is a bad post because you're lacking scum reads. You could see from thread flow that GB was about to be the guy coming under pressure from multiple directions and you jumped on that straight away with literally no reasoning.

I did give you reasoning
It felt rushed and panicky.

[gibus]

Ok Gibus I have a question. 10 posts after Vivax countervoted Gera, you voted Gera.

Are we ever going to like, learn why?

Random from my poe pool lol.
I didn't want to get kicked due to inactivity.

[gibus]

One thing I will add is the guy who voted me is probably town. I tend to be a magnet for unexplained early votes from people who haven't played with me before, and they're almost always town. It's why I got sus of Gamma last game for openly townreading me for no given reason in the first 60.

gibus is probably town if his read was serious

P.S.

I think the difference is some town get bad-vibes from it and decide to pressure me to get a better read, but it doesn't really ping anything from scum as something worth pursuing, which is why that vote usually comes from town.

What makes you think that gibus wasn't just random voting?

maybe he was random voting?

@Gibus
Why did you vote Crescent if you said that your vote was ''bad''?

as a dog person, I say we lynch all cat people

I was random voting.

[gibus]

wtf

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[gibus]

Crescent, you have complained about votes being spread out in the game.

You seem to have an opportunity to create a second wagon. Why are you not taking it?

Yeah cres.
Vote BBT w/ me.

[gibus]

I wouldn't mind hearing how Gibus came to 180 on his Gera read, too. I just noticed he is voting him.

I never townread gera fyi.

[gibus]

I never townread gera fyi.

Aww man, I was hoping you'd say that...

No idea. GB I guess?
I don't want to sound like

I'm white knighting ger

, but his vote based on the 2 posts feels rushed and panicky.
It'd make sense for him to divert all that attention asap as scum. Just a feeling though.

because you can only white-knight someone you town read. Or was that a scum slip?

Man read the whole sentence.

I don't want to sound like I townread gera with all this defense, ..

[gibus]

How did this day suddenly turn to me being -3 and just as suddenly turn into two guys voting for each other and vying for my hand?

This entire progression feels unnatural.

Gibus why did you vote BBT? I think his inquiry was rational.

I've definitely answered all of his queries sufficiently, but he makes no attempt to reconsider. Town is never that confident on scumreads.
It seems like he's doing everything in his power to throw hade at my iso (try hard entry for example, which obviously isn't genuine town thought process)

[gibus]

But why point to Owen questioning me on it (and he's not the only one) when asked to show yourself questioning it?

I mean, there's no point is there. Clarifying my intent was enough in that scenario.

[gibus]

By intent, I mean clarify whether my vote was random or not.

[gibus]

Again, missing the point.

My problem is not whether your vote was random or not.

My problem is that from your vote (random or not) Crescent town read you. Scum!Gibus thinks 'Cool, an early town read, I'll take that' and town!Gibus thinks 'Why the hell did Crescent just town read me for a random vote?' You did the former.

The

why

is explained in 47. I felt no need to "question" anything more. Nor would any other towny be compelled to.
The read is a logical consequence of a non random vote. If the vote is in fact random, the town read doesn't exist anymore.
I made it clear that vote was random, thereby nullifying said townread.

That should clear things up, no? Or am I being slow witted.

Not only did you do the former. You had a problem with somebody else throwing out an early town read that you felt was in 'bad faith'. Is this not exactly what Crescent did?

Not at all. There was no good follow up to elsa's read, unlike cres.

[gibus]

Also am I ever gonna get an answer to why I'm near-conf town because you kiiiiinda seem to be completely ignoring that.

You have a lot of game-solving posts that I think are hard to fake as scum.
Clidd(town) had a good townread on you which is a +

[gibus]

How did this day suddenly turn to me being -3 and just as suddenly turn into two guys voting for each other and vying for my hand?

This entire progression feels unnatural.

Gibus why did you vote BBT? I think his inquiry was rational.

I've definitely answered all of his queries sufficiently, but he makes no attempt to reconsider. Town is never that confident on scumreads.
It seems like he's doing everything in his power to throw hade at my iso (try hard entry for example, which obviously isn't genuine town thought process)

I am conflicted by this post.

Town is never that confident on scumreads.

Unsure how you can have this mindset and also think Corwin and Vivax are both town. Those dudes have spent 98% of this game confident that each other are scum with the flimsiest arguments and you think they're TvT. (I agree btw, I also think they're probably TvT), but BBT is scum for being confident. The defensive vote with this as the reason is iffy.


The thing here conflicting me is that I feel BBT's push on Gibus is quite forced and I don't mind the rest of Gibus's reaction - but this stands out to me.

Confident even after I provided adequate answers that dismantle his reasoning- it's not the same.

[gibus]

With 2 days left, I expect the same final crunch we had day 1 to happen again. Maybe even the 8 wagons too. Tho with only 10 alive that becomes significantly harder to do.

I think we can at least agree who we are NOT eliminating today?

Nobody's really going for Alex, Eira, or me today, so I think we can take

those

3 out. Funnily enough the three of

them

are also the only ones not getting voted in the last VC either.

Corwin is more townread then Vivax who is more likely to get elimed between the two so he's safe too. Seems the Crescent stuff has also died now.

So that leaves us with Gibus, Toffee, NotMaf, Vivax, and Gera. Minus Toffee so far it matches what I think we should be between.

If your vote isn't on one of those you should probably get moving soon.

Strangr wording here. Why refer to herself in third person?
Sounds survivalistic while trying not to come off as such.

[gibus]

How did this day suddenly turn to me being -3 and just as suddenly turn into two guys voting for each other and vying for my hand?

This entire progression feels unnatural.

Gibus why did you vote BBT? I think his inquiry was rational.

I've definitely answered all of his queries sufficiently, but he makes no attempt to reconsider. Town is never that confident on scumreads.
It seems like he's doing everything in his power to throw hade at my iso (try hard entry for example, which obviously isn't genuine town thought process)

I am conflicted by this post.

Town is never that confident on scumreads.

Unsure how you can have this mindset and also think Corwin and Vivax are both town. Those dudes have spent 98% of this game confident that each other are scum with the flimsiest arguments and you think they're TvT. (I agree btw, I also think they're probably TvT), but BBT is scum for being confident. The defensive vote with this as the reason is iffy.


The thing here conflicting me is that I feel BBT's push on Gibus is quite forced and I don't mind the rest of Gibus's reaction - but this stands out to me.

Confident even after I provided adequate answers that dismantle his reasoning- it's not the same.

Best you could explain imo is how you got to word town read as white knighting.
Because white knighting, also called simping has nothing to do with town reading.

Thought it did. That's what I got from the wiki at least.

[gibus]

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... reviations

WKing: White Knighting. Aggressively defending another player, implied to be town.

[gibus]

With 2 days left, I expect the same final crunch we had day 1 to happen again. Maybe even the 8 wagons too. Tho with only 10 alive that becomes significantly harder to do.

I think we can at least agree who we are NOT eliminating today?

Nobody's really going for Alex, Eira, or me today, so I think we can take

those

3 out. Funnily enough the three of

them

are also the only ones not getting voted in the last VC either.

Corwin is more townread then Vivax who is more likely to get elimed between the two so he's safe too. Seems the Crescent stuff has also died now.

So that leaves us with Gibus, Toffee, NotMaf, Vivax, and Gera. Minus Toffee so far it matches what I think we should be between.

If your vote isn't on one of those you should probably get moving soon.

Strangr wording here. Why refer to herself in third person?
Sounds survivalistic while trying not to come off as such.

Gibus, why no Elsa vote here? She's in your scumpool. Cres and me are already voting there. We have like a day left. I'm unsure why you are sticking with Toffee here.

I was kinda hoping for a counter waon but it looks like I'm the only one seeing toffees obv scum agenda.
And the fact that his wagon gained no traction.. very sus. I don't think scum misses a chance to aim for town!toffee since that would be quite easy to case and it makes it easier to set me up for a miselim later.

But yeah, I'm fine with an elsa lim too. Seems like the logical conclusion to Corw v vivax.
Still think her third person survivalism is scummy.
VOTE: Elsa

[gibus]

Moving back to toffee if she claims pr or smth.

[gibus]

I mean so far it's DEFINITELY a townread on Toffee's actions and only because of Fish do I still have some minor doubts. Like with Crescent, if fish had another lurker as a partner with no Coach she could've just abandoned the game. Demotivated after the traitor is gone. Another certified Elsa theory.

All he did was throw out 2 unsubstantiated srs on 2 verytowny players outside of his push on me. I don't get where this is coming from.

[gibus]

Unofficial Vote Count 2

GeorgeBailey (6):

Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Alexcellent, Crescent, gibus, Vivax

UNOwen (3):

clidd, Elsa Jay, GeorgeBailey

Corwinoid (1):

UNOwen

Crescent (1):

geraintm

Vivax (1):

Corwinoid

Not voting (0):

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-12 13:13:00)

ok, checking Gibus

Day 1 i get nothing. there is a bunch of votes all around the place, very little in the way of opinion or thought (except consistently saying i am town) and ended up on the elimination 3rd last

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

that was their vote on George Bailey

I should point out that the games clidd mentioned were a lot more fast paced than this one. Not sure if the meta read is very accurate.
I'd much rather elim Elsa over ger if it were up to me.

ok but if not Elsa then where would your vote be atm?

What's your reads on Crescent, George, and Corwinoid?

No idea. GB I guess?
I don't want to sound like I'm white knighting ger, but his vote based on the 2 posts feels rushed and panicky.
It'd make sense for him to divert all that attention asap as scum. Just a feeling though.

and this was the only time befor ei can really see them having any opinion on George. that vote looks awful now.

VOTE: Goldfish, Not_Mafia, geraint

their open to day 2

their opening thoughts strognly townread Corwin (and soon after think vivax is likely town too, though nothing backing that up)

All of that to explain a town read on someone under 0 pressure.

Cool.

Who is scum?

I'm still behind by.. a lot.
Based on poe tho, both scum have to exist within Not_maf, geraint, Elsa, and goldfish.

narrows down their scum team. im in it now though they spent previous saying i was town.

post 1338 has a lot of thoughts but they are still claiming to be reading....

Ok Gibus I have a question. 10 posts after Vivax countervoted Gera, you voted Gera.

Are we ever going to like, learn why?

Random from my poe pool lol.
I didn't want to get kicked due to inactivity.

oh, this is bad

One thing I will add is the guy who voted me is probably town. I tend to be a magnet for unexplained early votes from people who haven't played with me before, and they're almost always town. It's why I got sus of Gamma last game for openly townreading me for no given reason in the first 60.

gibus is probably town if his read was serious

P.S.

I think the difference is some town get bad-vibes from it and decide to pressure me to get a better read, but it doesn't really ping anything from scum as something worth pursuing, which is why that vote usually comes from town.

What makes you think that gibus wasn't just random voting?

maybe he was random voting?

@Gibus
Why did you vote Crescent if you said that your vote was ''bad''?

as a dog person, I say we lynch all cat people

I was random voting.

ditto

wtf

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

this seems random, but at least the vote is within that random 4 person scum pool

Crescent, you have complained about votes being spread out in the game.

You seem to have an opportunity to create a second wagon. Why are you not taking it?

Yeah cres.
Vote BBT w/ me.

how on earth are they trying to persuade Crescent, an obviously hesitant voter, to start a wagon on Toffee with this bare minimum effort???

I wouldn't mind hearing how Gibus came to 180 on his Gera read, too. I just noticed he is voting him.

I never townread gera fyi.

the what now???

i present

I've got nothing new to bring to the table except that the case on ger is flimsy as hell

and the one where they say they aren't white knighting me...but

With 2 days left, I expect the same final crunch we had day 1 to happen again. Maybe even the 8 wagons too. Tho with only 10 alive that becomes significantly harder to do.

I think we can at least agree who we are NOT eliminating today?

Nobody's really going for Alex, Eira, or me today, so I think we can take

those

3 out. Funnily enough the three of

them

are also the only ones not getting voted in the last VC either.

Corwin is more townread then Vivax who is more likely to get elimed between the two so he's safe too. Seems the Crescent stuff has also died now.

So that leaves us with Gibus, Toffee, NotMaf, Vivax, and Gera. Minus Toffee so far it matches what I think we should be between.

If your vote isn't on one of those you should probably get moving soon.

Strangr wording here. Why refer to herself in third person?
Sounds survivalistic while trying not to come off as such.

Gibus, why no Elsa vote here? She's in your scumpool. Cres and me are already voting there. We have like a day left. I'm unsure why you are sticking with Toffee here.

I was kinda hoping for a counter waon but it looks like I'm the only one seeing toffees obv scum agenda.
And the fact that his wagon gained no traction.. very sus. I don't think scum misses a chance to aim for town!toffee since that would be quite easy to case and it makes it easier to set me up for a miselim later.

But yeah, I'm fine with an elsa lim too. Seems like the logical conclusion to Corw v vivax.
Still think her third person survivalism is scummy.
VOTE: Elsa

switch to Elsa because their attempt to get toffee eliminated didnt go anywhere, and justified because no one joined them in voting toffee???

i cannot work out how this slot could be town. their day 1 was not great, their vote ended up on the elimination

Detective, I can see if someone performed a Nightkill during the night or a previous one.

how does this clear people as town

and they even posted after GEorgebailey's claim and didn't unvote.
and day 2 is a mixture of poor votes, poor attempts tostart wagons, claimed laziness

this slot looks bad

VOTE: gibus

Nah

[gibus]

I don't know about Smellsa, his posts are pretty hava

I looked up hava and got "help america vote act". So what in the world do you mean. My mind can't get a different word for good or bad or weird or anything.

prolly meant half assed

[gibus]

town combined doctor checker

[gibus]

I can protect and check the same person every night

[gibus]

May I enquire as to who you targeted last night Gibus?

Cres.
I didn't receive a no result.

[gibus]

VOTE: BBT

[gibus]

The existence of a scum rb should solve that, no?

[gibus]

Damnit Cres stop focusing on other games and play with me.

Because if I claimed Bodyguard in a later post then immediately after someone claimed Doctor I would be called a liar.

I come back from YouTube and see that shit.

I... don't think that would have been the case?

Did you crumb this anywhere?

UNVOTE: Elsa

My immediate first post this game specifically mentioned me dying night one.

I guarded Eira if you were curious. Regret it completely since I listened to Cres talking about scum killing one of those 2 and went with the one I townread. Would've been on Clidd otherwise I guess.

Thought you were crumbing vig in your first post.

[gibus]

The strat I had in mind was that elsa's vig claim would either confirm her as scum or town. Either way I'd have a solid target during the night to protect.

[gibus]

The check was successful

[gibus]

I didn't realise what Checker did, my bad.

Why did you choose Cres?

Town leader vibes.
Whom would you have picked?

[gibus]

UNVOTE:

[gibus]

Oh and this is for Gibus: if we both promise to go on one person they literally can't die. If your role is correct them roleblocking you with notify you what happened, and then instead of the person dying it would just be me. This way we both make sure one guy can't die.

Do we target each other if we lim a rb today?

[gibus]

Cres, Alex, Eira.
Preferably Eira

[gibus]

Intent to hammer

[gibus]

Don't you want to give him time to claim?

[gibus]

Fish rolecopped Owen N1

Convenient. What are your abilities?

[gibus]

NM is the roleblocker. Got it.

[gibus]

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[gibus]

GN

[gibus]

VOTE: Vivax

[gibus]

Same. Check went through.

[gibus]

I mean I haven't voted there yet since we'd still have to find the partner but yeah Doc is 99 percent fake.

Eh

[gibus]

I'm pretty slow. Gimme time to collect my thoughts.

[gibus]

Spoiler:

I mean I got a new spicy theory for scum Crescent if you wanna hear it Eira. I know it's getting old there but whatever.

Though if the Crescent Mastermind theory isn't worth pursuing it's something along the lines of either Vivax today. Or NotMaf has to go since if we're wrong again we're in MyLo and unable to just Launch NotMaf day 4.

always up for theories elsa : P

what about gibus? u trust the claim at this point? Is gera on the table? Corwin conf town 2 u?

Actually the theory involves both Cres AND Gibus here honestly.

Let's be honest with ourselves. Do we really think there's 2 Protectives left, especially since the JOAT also had a 1-shot protective as well as a commuter? No. So while I want today to also focus on the other slots so we can find the partner, Gibus is probscum.

Let's start with Combined Doctor Checker as the first claim. Then in my first post after this I claimed [Redacted]-Enabler Bodyguard.

So while I mentioned it today, I also hinted earlier after Crescent ruthlessly tried to argue my [Redacted] was a scum claim because it implied a fifth PR. The mistake there was not assuming it was for any of the other claimed roles at the time. Slight shading there maybe? Not as important.

Then I get too confident and basically out what I really was with my hypothetical post mentioning scum Roleblocker. Didn't mean to basically spell it out there but oh well. So it's also why I believed at the time there was a Doctor Checker because it specifically also mentioned a Roleblocker counter ability while mine was an enabler.

But is it really surprising SCUM knows about a Roleblocker? And a Doctor who "heals" Crescent as the possible partner to basically garuntee they just never actually heal to prove it? Hell while I did crumb I was healing Crescent all signs pointed to Gibus wanting to heal Eira. His direct quote was "Eira Cres Alex, preferably Eira". It felt more weird to heal the same person twice in a row when as doc you'd rather try healing the Vigilante. Unless Gibus has mentioned anything about thinking Cres was Vig I don't think healing Cres is the town move there.

That and compared to Bodyguard who still gives scum a kill via my death to save someone, Doctor would prevent a kill entirely. If it wasn't a JOAT with two forms of protection available you could've argued Doctor was valid but it makes way more sense for it to be Bodyguard.

Here's the Flipped PRs

Non-consecutive Vigilante
Detective
JOAT (Follower Commuter Rolestopper Rolecop)

Does town seem better with a Doctor who appearantly KNOWS when they get Roleblocked, or a Bodyguard who's trying to die to disable a scum Roleblocker they enable? Town enabling Scum abilities is as common as well as town ones so I wasn't sure at the time but this confirms it to me.

I think Gibus is actually the Roleblocker claiming to be a doctor to have avoided getting launched and/or to get the actual PR to out themselves. But I think because I mentioned possibly being Roleblocker enabler they just probably Roleblocked me to prevent me from dying to keep their ability AND to keep cover. Particularly after the JOAT flip. Plus they'd still want to hunt the Vigilante too.

But with literally all the Other PRs dead I've outlived my usefulness so I'm dying tonight if we get Gibus, or if we didn't focus on us we would've been the two fighting in MyLo. Hence me stating it now Gibus is probably the evil one.

Can someone do the math and find out how balanced a doc/bg/vig setup is?

[gibus]

VOTE: geraintm
To avenge clidd, gb, and bbt

[gibus]

Fish do you think it was weird that the shift from Corwin and Owen to George felt rushed? How do you feel about the events that happened?

I think the mod will lock thread in the morning when the actual deadline hits so be quick with a response. I want your opinion before the night phase happens.

For the wagon analysis... It feels better to look at where the people were voting before they all jumped onto George. Obviously the hammerer turned out guilty, but I think at least one opportunist jumped on there as scum. One who probably was voting Owen/Corwin but jumped ship.

All of the last 4 votes on that wagon came directly off of me, very quickly.

Day 2, Crescent and gibus were stacked on you until they decided to jump for Fish. Gibus coming off the driver seat to hammer seems really weird to me also

Why is it weird. I didn't want anyone to lolhammer him is all.

[gibus]

OK

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[gibus]

UNVOTE:

[gibus]

Is it too far fetched to think there might be 4 mafia aligned players in a universe where both me and Elsa are town prs?

[gibus]

I'll vote whomever crescent votes

[gibus]

OK yeah, my posts have been crap today. I'll actually focus on the game now.

[gibus]

Can someone unvote NM before he lolhammers himself?

[gibus]

Fwiw, if having 2 protective roles is mathematically imbalanced, I think today's launch should be either Elsa or me.
That should guarantee that we reach 4player lylo with 1 scum worst case.

[gibus]

If we let either of us influence todays lim and succesfully hit town, then a miselim tomorrow would lose us the game.

[gibus]

Does the fact that I've neither been role blocked or nked imply that there's a rolestopper instead of a roleblocker?

[gibus]

But is it really surprising SCUM knows about a Roleblocker? And a Doctor who "heals" Crescent as the possible partner to basically garuntee they just never actually heal to prove it? Hell while I did crumb I was healing Crescent all signs pointed to Gibus wanting to heal Eira. His direct quote was "Eira Cres Alex, preferably Eira". It felt more weird to heal the same person twice in a row when as doc you'd rather try healing the Vigilante. Unless Gibus has mentioned anything about thinking Cres was Vig I don't think healing Cres is the town move there.

I can use the same argument against you.
If town!you thinks there's a scum rb, why wouldn't YOU target Eira (assumed vig) to make sure she stayed alive? Double protection was your idea after all.

I switched to a stronger tr since Eira crumbed she wasn't the vig.

[gibus]

Does the fact that I've neither been role blocked or nked imply that there's a rolestopper instead of a roleblocker?

On this note, can you even be an X-enabler if X doesn't exist?
Maybe there really is an impostor among the two of us.

[gibus]

VOTE: Elsa Jay

[gibus]

It's too late for policy lims, cres.
Vote me if you think it's NM/me.

[gibus]

Also I feel like you actually work in a team with most people. If you got voted off and flipped scum, Gibus just gets shot and we have 0 indication of who he actually thinks would be scum with you.

Gera obviously.

[gibus]

Well, his sudden spike in activity isn't scummy if that's what you mean.
Him dying as either alignment loses him the game.

[gibus]

Also I feel like you actually work in a team with most people. If you got voted off and flipped scum, Gibus just gets shot and we have 0 indication of who he actually thinks would be scum with you.

Gera obviously.

What indications have you given that makes this obvious?

Scum!elsa can't throw NM under the bus, given she's in a 1v1 with me.
Vivax I still think is town.

So poe says gera is the partner.

[gibus]

I voted vivax out of impulse for calling me clueless - cus scum (with a rb I thought) just let me be last night.
Terrible reasoning I know, I voted somewhere else the next time I came online.

[gibus]

I can't defend a lack of activity. What can I say except I had other things to do?
Same goes for NM too.

[gibus]

Whatever. Guess it wasn't that obvious. I think vivax and eira are both town.

[gibus]

Not in NM's case, no.

Going for him is the strat with least resistance. Lim town!NM, and then me (1v1 with elsa) to win the game.

[gibus]

Not worth the risk since I had alex as a potential target.

[gibus]

Does the fact that I've neither been role blocked or nked imply that there's a rolestopper instead of a roleblocker?

Does the fact that I've neither been role blocked or nked imply that there's a rolestopper instead of a roleblocker?

On this note, can you even be an X-enabler if X doesn't exist?
Maybe there really is an impostor among the two of us.

What do you think of this?

[gibus]

gibus has a point that the enabled role doesn't have to exist, but how in the hell is this balanced if that's the case? And I think we're in serious trouble of getting into outguess-the-mod territory here.

@gibus, do you think Elsa's town?

Nope. I was meaning to say her claim makes lesser sense since a roleblocker may not even exist

[gibus]

Gibus was calling me "near-conf" town. That's a pretty strong crumb.

This is wifom for scum actually.
The 3 of you were all likely targets.

[gibus]

Cres, Alex, Eira.
Preferably Eira

[gibus]

Although in elsa's defense, scum!she could have just claimed rolestopper-enabler?
I'm back to being confused.

[gibus]

It's possible that there is no mafia roleblocker/rolestopper at all, and she claimed rb-enabler since there was no mention of rolestoppers yesterday

[gibus]

What are all the possible modifiers that interfere with checks

[gibus]

BBT had a 1-shot rolestopper.
There's no guarantee scum even has a checker notifying modifier.

[gibus]

Cursory summary:

Elsa's initial claim came 26 minutes after Gibus, it was her next post, and it was in response to Alex voting her.

No one other than Gibus, Alex, and I were posting at the time. It's not what I'd call a

significant

amount of time to come up with a plan that extended into day 3 just to mess with Gibus more when Gibus already looked not-great.

I believe her entire claim would've had to be planned out beforehand in the 26 minutes between yours and hers. Her reaction to my immediate assumption she was claiming she enabled a town role fits the claim she ultimately made.

You should be concerned about how she urged me to give a name to double protect in the night, only to target somewhere else.

[gibus]

What are all the possible modifiers that interfere with checks

Any ascetic, blocker, commuter, redirector, or relocator (bus driver). Neither of the latter two in Normal games.

I meant manipulative roles, yeah.

[gibus]

I can frame this as a defense of Vivax.

It was.

[gibus]

Just go for Geraint Tomorrow.

Both jumps onto Gibus and Me were scummy

Rmemeber Geraint.

And one of Crescent/Elsa

[gibus]

Prefer BBT, but I'd sheep a Geraint wagon. I think there's scum in one of those slots.

Tbh I've just been kind of null on Geraint all game. I've been kind of ignoring him because he seems like busy/disinterested rather than inherently scummy, but also very little (if any) pro-town stuff has come from him too. His earlier Vivax vote felt weak and the move to Gibus is convenient. If Gera were to flip scum I would prooooobably feel better about BBT.

[gibus]

I thought elsa was a vig at the time.
There was no point running up another potential pr anymore since I was outed as a doc.

[gibus]

Oh I get the first post? What an honor... What to do with it do? Give a speech? Randomly vote? Claim to be a town leader and get shot night one? So many choices.

I'll stick with the basics though.

Morning my fellow townies, what a glorious day to

find evildoers and put them towards execution!

... I'll make a better speech later.

[gibus]

Ngl I have no idea what you're accusing me of

[gibus]

The strat I had in mind was that elsa's vig claim would either confirm her as scum or town. Either way I'd have a solid target during the night to protect.

[gibus]

Moving back to toffee if she claims pr or smth.

I realized way before I claimed.
This was a crumb of sorts.

[gibus]

@gibus so between vivax and Not_mafia who would you rather elim?

Assuming Elsa is town? Definitely NM.

[gibus]

I'm not saying.

Hammer me.

NM is the roleblocker. Got it.

here again....


@Elsa u really think gibus/Not_MAfia is a good pairing? cos im not seeing it. hmmmmmmmm.

Not that it matters anymore but, I was entertaining the possibility that bbt wanted to die to save his rb buddy so that elsa/me wouldn't auto town win.

[gibus]

game suddenly got busy. first half of the night's posts seem to be people pairing me with elsa as a team because we've not talked to each other.

2nd half of the night's posts seems to be people flinging mud around, i dunno i got bored.

i havent intereacted much with elsa because Day 1 i was messed around by Crescent. Today they are basically not Not Mafia. Day 2 i cannot remember.

you lot work out what you want to do. i still cannot see how any of your ideas solve Vivax and Not mafia and i am going to be so pissed if town loses this game because those two have just sat and done nothing the whole game and we talk ourselves into some big brain plays.
i am assuming the Dead THread are just bashing their heads at all of this.

Why did you feel the need to justify your lack of interaction with elsa?
You're the top pick for her scum buddy because other pairings make no sense.

[gibus]

you lot work out what you want to do. i still cannot see how any of your ideas solve Vivax and Not mafia and i am going to be so pissed if town loses this game because those two have just sat and done nothing the whole game and we talk ourselves into some big brain plays.

Do you think it's balanced if town has potentially 3 protective roles?

[gibus]

^ that

Vote Count 3.2

Vivax (4):

gibus, Elsa Jay, Not_Mafia, Eiralox

Not_Mafia (1):

geraintm

Crescent (1):

Corwinoid

Not voting (2):

Crescent, Vivax

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

Notes:

• Yes I know that strictly speaking math diagrams are not the same as science diagrams, thank you very much

Vote Count 3.3

Not_Mafia (3):

geraintm, Elsa Jay, Vivax

Vivax (1):

Eiralox

Not voting (4):

Crescent, Not_Mafia, gibus, Corwinoid

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

NM/vivax is by far the most outlandish conclusion to come to as town

[gibus]

we talk ourselves into some big brain plays.

That's the problem.
If you spend enough time on it, you can picture any scenario possible. There is such a thing as overthinking it.

If you start from Crescents analysis of the wagons and look at Eiras activity explosion before, you should think that Eira is mafia no?
Or why did NM do his big flashy post voting for me?Is that in any way similar to how he played on D1?

It's Gibus/NM,

Gibus/Vivax

, or Elsa/Gera.


"Any scenarios".

Why would I back myself into a corner instead of hammer NM then

[gibus]

^ that

Spoiler:

Vote Count 3.2

Vivax (4):

gibus, Elsa Jay, Not_Mafia, Eiralox

Not_Mafia (1):

geraintm

Crescent (1):

Corwinoid

Not voting (2):

Crescent, Vivax

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

Notes:

• Yes I know that strictly speaking math diagrams are not the same as science diagrams, thank you very much

Vote Count 3.3

Not_Mafia (3):

geraintm, Elsa Jay, Vivax

Vivax (1):

Eiralox

Not voting (4):

Crescent, Not_Mafia, gibus, Corwinoid

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

NM/vivax is by far the most outlandish conclusion to come to as town

It's clearly gera's attempt to derail my 1v1 with elsa.
How does town see 2 dudes putting each other at e-1 and call them a scum team.

[gibus]

^ that

Spoiler:

Vote Count 3.2

Vivax (4):

gibus, Elsa Jay, Not_Mafia, Eiralox

Not_Mafia (1):

geraintm

Crescent (1):

Corwinoid

Not voting (2):

Crescent, Vivax

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

Notes:

• Yes I know that strictly speaking math diagrams are not the same as science diagrams, thank you very much

Vote Count 3.3

Not_Mafia (3):

geraintm, Elsa Jay, Vivax

Vivax (1):

Eiralox

Not voting (4):

Crescent, Not_Mafia, gibus, Corwinoid

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to launch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-06-30 12:40:00)

NM/vivax is by far the most outlandish conclusion to come to as town

It's clearly gera's attempt to derail my 1v1 with elsa.
How does town see 2 dudes putting each other at e-1 and call them a scum team.

In general, why shouldn't two at -1 be a scum team?
When you work with a town core in your mind, you can rule it out.

Because elsa/me can auto win if the bus on the roleblocker succeeds, given gera doesn't think either of us are scum.

[gibus]

There's a consensus that there's 1 scum in me/elsa.
If gera has a solid reason for both of us to be town, it's an auto win or close.
Otherwise it doesn't make sense to not vote for us today.