Not Quite Normal Multiball II (Game Over)

[Klick]

So I've very loosely skimmed most of today's content so far

I think Klick/Math scumteam theory is pretty ridiculous. In that hypothetical, Math making the clear on me today would literally only serve to get Math killed when I die, when Math would probably be fine in a situation where I flip wolf.

I'm just town, and the take that it's not only possible but likely that Math and I are scum together is disappointingly bad.

[Klick]

@StD and Flavor Leaf: I would like to reach an agreement with the two of you on who is likely to be a wolf, and hard shove that wagon through today.

I think it's pretty silly to be aiming for Mafia with today's vote, Flavor Leaf should just be off the table. I don't particularly care if Mafia stay alive today or not, they should be aiming for a wolf and forcing the wolves to kill me, getting rid of me isn't their problem. We need scum blood, we haven't had it four game days in a row, and I think that's because we're giving the scum too much influence for no reason.

If StD, FL and I agree on who to vote, then that's three votes that have no wolf influence. Or do it without me if you really want, but I'm not a wolf lol. My point mainly being that we're a lot less likely to hit a wolf by majority vote when three wolves are still in. We've got a pretty big chance to hit a wolf today if we actually play it smart instead of folding to majority opinion.

I think town should be interested in this as a decision-making tool for today's elimination.

[Klick]

I'm probably going to drown out most noise that isn't FL or Fen today

[Klick]

As for my actual reads:

I think Sword of Ducks is still blatantly town. Childish, but this play reads exactly like town who is tired of being in this game, not scum who could at least get some guidance from buddies on how to approach things. He feels entirely isolated from the rest of the game. He's my hardest townread.

I really don't think it's Menalque, for reasons that I've stated previously. I don't want to vote there today.

I think MathBlade is probably just town, I felt the same about MonkeyMan. I got annoyed enough yesterday that I wanted to just vote there, but I don't think his play makes very much sense as scum here unless he's Mafia desperately looking for a play to endgame.

I think Keeper and bnuuy are two slots that can really easily be wolves here and those are the two I'd be most interested in voting today. I have leaned town on Nashville/tictac/Nero previously, but these are the reads I feel least strongly about and scum often winds up there so I'm open to considering any of them today as well.

[Klick]

Town have had 4 elims in this game, have killed 4 town
The scum have had a much higher success rate at killing scum than us

Aiming specifically for Mafia with 0% chance of hitting a wolf is ridiculous and I'm not entertaining it

[Klick]

A lot of the things you state as facts are blatantly not, it's a manipulation tactic and I'm not going to entertain it. Last response on the topic.

[Klick]

That's why mafia is effectively leashed to kill tictac or klick.
Wolves leashed to Flavor or StD.

This is not true. Mafia have no forced incentive to kill me since I can't be a wolf either. They can make it the wolves' problem.

[Klick]

That's why mafia is effectively leashed to kill tictac or klick.
Wolves leashed to Flavor or StD.

I thinknim reading MathBlade as Mafia atm?

[Klick]

sorry klick i'm into it but i don't think it's happening

I'm not satisfied with this. Non-conf-town-MathBlade isn't currently calling the shots by shouting faulty logic into the thread. Town can listen to me today. If there aren't enough town players willing to drone out Math's noise, then I'll settle on a Math elim today, but that is explicitly the reason that I'd do so.

VOTE: bnuuy

[Klick]

VOTE: bunny

the reason I'm not keen on this one is because this fade is going to happen within the next couple of days, no stopping it. Math/Bnuny is a pairing I see for sure, but i seriously dont want another day with Mathblade vs FL, and if I end up dying, Mathblade's gonna swing through near the end and eliminate threats to make the gamestate better for them.

I can relate with the feeling of wanting to vote MathBlade for the sake of the gamestate. It's also basically how I felt about you on D1.

But now it's D5. We need to eliminate scum. I don't think MathBlade!Wolf is impossible, but I see it as the least likely alignment for that slot. The way MathBlade is playing seems desperate to control the gamestate in a way that fits a lot more with Mafia on his last leg, or Town who actually just thinks his takes are correct and need to be listened to.

[Klick]

klick what are you thinking

It's really hard for me to keep focus on this when there's so much noise.
If FL wants to vote MathBlade then I am fine to do it because I could see myself just being wrong. It's not what I'd like most though.
The more I think about it the more Math's insistence that Mafia has to kill me has scummy af motivation. Mafia have no compulsion to kill me at all, they can absolutely delegate that to the Wolves.

[Klick]

klick i need you buddy you were here a while ago

Sorry, the kids needed me slightly more for bedtime

[Klick]

klick are you 100% not for mena

Yes

[Klick]

i think keeper townslipped earlier by not knowing mastina was a mafia

Very interested in this, can you point me at the relevant post(s)?

[Klick]

SoD, bnuny is secretly Kaiba

Loool this one got me

[Klick]

Keeper has been playing both sides of Mathblade-FL, and I could see them as final Mafia.

bnuuy ain't happening.

I will gladiate this if it comes to it, and "save bnuuy" if only because frankly I've now put way more effort into this than I was ever wanted to and frankly I want a day of discussion that isn't you/mb.

I am completely fine with this outcome btw @FL and StD. Keeper hasn't followed through on this threat yet, and when they do I'm fine to vote them.

[Klick]

VOTE: Mathblade

Keeper said they'd save Bnuuy, so we can't go there.

Fade Math today.

Then we just vote Keeper when they do that

[Klick]

sorry klick i'm into it but i don't think it's happening

I'm not satisfied with this. Non-conf-town-MathBlade isn't currently calling the shots by shouting faulty logic into the thread. Town can listen to me today. If there aren't enough town players willing to drone out Math's noise, then I'll settle on a Math elim today, but that is explicitly the reason that I'd do so.

VOTE: bnuuy

Math is currently the one giving you conftown status.

Other than that, what reason do we have to listen to you? You've genuinely made no impact on me all game other than calling me out for not taking some bait.

The fact that I'm town and that this town has voted incorrectly four times in a row by doing exactly what it wants to do a fifth time.

[Klick]

We are obviously not voting the Monk with 3 wolves alive

[Klick]

Town has to work directly with Mafia today and Mafia has to aim for a wolf at night if we miss

[Klick]

I'm very glad that we did not vote Mafia yesterday because I don't actually have much faith in this town to all come together at this point

Sword of Ducks, can I ask that you please sheep Flavor Leaf's vote today? He is guaranteed to not be a wolf, who we absolutely need to aim for today.

[Klick]

Ah yes, the kill reduction thing

We don't particularly need to aim for Mafia at all when Mafia has incentive to shoot Wolves
Also, Mafia probably recognises that they need to basically townie at the moment because this town is not getting it done during the day

[Klick]

I STRONGLY suggest that we go with the strategy I suggested yesterday, where we have our own opinions but ultimately sheep the confirmed not-wolves (FL and myself).
The four town and one wolf are not going to individually agree on voting a wolf today.

[Klick]

Four town and one mafia*

[Klick]

I think we should follow your opinion on who the wolves are. However, FL is just going to say tictac. That's in his interest. Tictac may be a wolf, but his position is telegraphed.

This is valid reasoning and I'm fine with this. I just don't have confidence in people listening to me so I might need your help to sway people to this way of thinking.

[Klick]

Unless we’re confident we can hit 2 scum in a row going for the last mafia seems more sensible

We’re at 4:3:1 rn
Hitting a wolf and a town leaves us at 3:2:1
If the kills go poorly n7 we lose that night with those numbers going in

Meanwhile if we hit mafia today tomorrow is 7p ELo, which while still tense is more skill-dependent of an outcome

Skill-dependent doesn't trump the odds being strictly lower for town winning.

I also don't think Flavor Leaf or anyone else is confirmed Mafia enough for us to specifically aim at them. I can see this as reasoning to aim in people who could be either scum, but I'm not going to vote for Flavor Leaf today.

[Klick]

With no kills likely happening tonight, that means if we hit a wolf, then we’re at 7.

We hit another wolf Day 7, we at 6.

With a 4-1-1 split. Going into night 7, worst case scenario we get to a 2-1-1.

Crosskilling stops that, but it’s risky.

If we hit wolf today, then mafia tomorrow, we at 6 in a 4-2 split going into Night 7, and we end up in a 5p eylo.

2-1-1 is not very likely, and is also a better outcome than 5p ELo.

[Klick]

This game has been a masterclass in throwing lol

VOTE: FL

I don’t care if this is wrong or not, wolves go for it it town

I agree with you in almost every sense

I don't think this town can come together for a win. But I'd like a chance to try, as the player currently holding the cards.

[Klick]

@Klick - where’s your head right now?

Sword of Ducks is very likely town
Menalque is very likely town

Wolves are in {Nashville, Nero Cain, bnuuy, tictac}

I need to look more in-depth before I'm happy to solve within those four.

[Klick]

This game has been a masterclass in throwing lol

VOTE: FL

I don’t care if this is wrong or not, wolves go for it it town

I agree with you in almost every sense

I don't think this town can come together for a win. But I'd like a chance to try, as the player currently holding the cards.

I mean, sure, but I think we need to kill scum first then wolf hunt and hope to hit them all in a row, unless my elo math is off

That means we kill FL today and I’m realistically very unlikely to ever shift from here

I still think Nero slot is likely town, why do you think they could be scum?

You haven't actually explained why you think we need to vote Mafia today Menalque
You've just said you don't care if you're right on FL or not you just want to vote him
The time to do that was D1.

[Klick]

If its so obvious that we should vote Mafia today, prove it in a conversation with me please Menalque

[Klick]

Claim: Town isn't the alignment that has the burden of killing Flavor Leaf. Wolves have to kill Flavor Leaf, Mafia has to kill tictac, and they both have to kill me.

We shouldn't waste the town's eliminations on slots that scum have to kill.

[Klick]

also looking for one team is easier than looking for both imo, and if FL

isn't

scum then we 100% need to lim maf tomorrow or as they have kills back tomorrow night is GG for town and it's wolves v maf where wolves prob win

I mean wolves prob win anyway atp but I think it's the best shot

???

If we lim town->maf then wolves just win outright

[Klick]

I'm not sure on tictac. I was leaning town before but I'm far from certain, and he's in PoE at this point.

[Klick]

anyone who doesn't vote FL today needs to rethink their game

This still doesn't feel like it's been justified

[Klick]

the fact that math was convinced on FL scum and we now know math was 100% town and is a good player

Math's explanations for things were blatantly false in several areas. I do not trust Math's judgement.


Let's talk a bit more about 4-3 vs 4-2-1. I think the latter is faaaar better a position for town.

[Klick]

ESPECIALLY if FL actually is mafia. He'll just die to wolves.

[Klick]

SUPER ESPECIALLY because neither of us trusts this town to coordinate.

Like you want this town to enter 'have to agree all together on the scumteam' territory

When we could just rely on the scum doing this for us, when they've shown to be pretty damn good at hitting each other

[Klick]

So your proposition is to no lim?

? What is this in response to

I'd love some more focus on the conversation Menalque and I are having and less distractions from it

[Klick]

Let's talk a bit more about 4-3 vs 4-2-1. I think the latter is faaaar better a position for town.

ESPECIALLY if FL actually is mafia. He'll just die to wolves.

SUPER ESPECIALLY because neither of us trusts this town to coordinate.

Like you want this town to enter 'have to agree all together on the scumteam' territory

When we could just rely on the scum doing this for us, when they've shown to be pretty damn good at hitting each other

Basically I'd like anyone who's town to have a really clear read of this and realise that we're probably not winning 4-3, while we very well could win 4-2-1.

[Klick]

Everyone will sheep me instead of no limming because I am a town voice.

[Klick]

I intend to make one solid push today that will go through. Feel free to explore options for the day, but I intend to be the deciding factor in today's vote, as we're not getting a town-decided elimination otherwise.

[Klick]

Hey bnuuy! What are your thoughts on entering 4-3 ELo vs going 4-2-1?

[Klick]

would rather do 4-3 as that's just a skill issue, 4-2-1, if we don't hit the 1, becomes RNG

I hard disagree and I want you to dive deeper into this.

You want a 4-3 in this game because then the game will be determined by the town's skill. How much confidence do you have in this town's ability to all accurately identify each other and vote together against the three remaining wolves?

Then, you argue that 4-2-1 is 'RNG' if we don't then vote Mafia tomorrow. First of all, what is RNG about either scum team's night kills? Wolves are very likely to kill FL; Mafia are very likely to kill tictac. What are your reads on these players? That should be influencing whether you think this is a valid play or not.

The actual odds of town winning increase if we aim for wolves today, even if the actual control is out of town's hands. And control being out of town's hands is a good thing when there is not confidence in the town's ability to pull off ELo cooperation.

Unless someone's read for the wolves is like exactly Sword/Mena/X, I don't think town should be willing to induce ELo.

[Klick]

What town needs to realise here is that the Wolves are so far ahead that the Mafia kill has strictly town utility. Getting rid of it is ridiculous. It's like voting out an actual Vigilante in this position until significantly later if Mafia get lucky.

Similarly, because that utility is so high, Wolves must aim to eliminate it.

[Klick]

We are the weakest influence of the three alignments right now, bringing only an elimination that can have scum influence if we're not careful. The scum are much more threatened by each other.

[Klick]

let's say night 7 starts 3-2-1
the only good outcome is both scum crosskilling
wolves hitting mafia or town and mafia misfiring results in 2-1-1 wolf majority, with the only possible outcomes atp being wolf win or draw
wolves hitting town and mafia hitting a wolf results in 4p kingmaker (which might be more prisoner's dilemma than kingmaker but it's still bad)
even both teams shooting you is not great because atp it's a situation of the mafia needing to townside or the wolves win, and I feel like it's pretty likely someone just gets it wrong and wolves just end the day there, at which point they're all but guaranteed to win

All of this gives us much better odds than winning 4-3 ELo though.

Mafia is much less likely to miss a Wolf in 3-2-1 than the Town is in ELo.

[Klick]

I haven't decided yet Menalque. Watch my vote if you want.

(Yes I'm conftiwn)

[Klick]

I think once one wolf falls the rest come in order
so town only has a 3/7 guess (3/6 for any individual player)
with you around as well, it becomes 3/5 in essence

This doesn't happen though, we have different players with different opinions making different choices

Making one correct decision in 7p ELo is not a win, even 3p ELo is very low odds for town and the odds only get worse with more chances to miss

Why does everything go town's way in your calculations for voting Mafia, but everything goes rather scum-sided in your calculations for voting a Wolf?

[Klick]

eh hm
who would you eliminate today + tomorrow if you had your way, klick?

I've already said I'm not sure yet. I'm still thinking

[Klick]

I don't know why the concept of being 'locked into voting Flavor' has entered the conversation

[Klick]

But what basis did you have for thinking they might be locked?

No one's locked into anything when half the living players are scum. We're following a town voice today. Going rogue is equivalent to scumsiding at the moment.

[Klick]

The group of 4 town, 3 wolves, and 1 mafioso should not be deciding today's elim by group discussion and majority vote.

[Klick]

i mean there's 9 scum you can be like there's definitely scum in any 4 people and probably hit

there are 6 mafiats tops

@SoD do you know what fencesitting is and why it's bad?

never heard of it.

god you are so adorable

I'm going to take this out of context!

i mean there's 9 scum you can be like there's definitely scum in any 4 people and probably hit

there are 6 mafiats tops

Original post says 4 on each team + Malefactor.

This is like the 4th time we’ve brought this up.

It’s confirmed 9 scum

There...

was

the Werewolf alignment in the sign-up/starting posts, correct?

Found it -

The alignments that can exist in this game are Town, Mafia, Werewolf and Malefactor (only one; wins when the town loses).

arg dammit

I was thinkin by 9 scum you meant nine mafiats

fair enough, nine scum, nine threats to the town

I would like everyone to legitimately, deeply think about these posts in the context of the rest of SoD's play and tell me what their read is on this behaviour. I'm less interested in a discussion about it influenced by others' opinions, and more interested in everyone's personal opinion on this when they look at it carefully.

[Klick]

If Wallflower was a wolf then she basically just spent all of D1 calling people that weren't her partners town and powerbussing her strong scumbuddy.

Doesn't really seem that likely

[Klick]

Yeah especially since catboi seemed to legitimately dislike the pressure on himself, I don't think that was a coordinated bus.

[Klick]

I know where I'd like to vote today and I'd be happy to move past today at this point.

If anyone has anything else they want to say, go ahead and feel free, but when I vote I'd kinda like it to just go through instead of getting derailed by further discussion.

[Klick]

VOTE: bnuuy

I really struggle to see bnuuy flipping anything but scum.

[Klick]

My current read is exactly bnuuy-tictac-Nashville.

Freedom should not be eliminated, ever. They're just town.
I really don't think SoD is scum either.

[Klick]

If bnuuy is town for some reason then it's Menalque-tictac-Nashville. I don't think that's going to happen though.

[Klick]

I don't think tictac is a good vote. I think Mafia has every incentive to shoot tictac, who I think will flip wolf. Meaning town controls their own vote while Mafia have to kill in town's interest.

FL currently reads as Mafia who thinks Menalque is town.

[Klick]

I mean I do too really. But voting tictac today is literally just doing Mafia a favour. It does nothing to limit the pool of potential Mafia for Wolves to kill in.

[Klick]

What an interesting situation we've found ourselves in.

[Klick]

Exactly how confident are you that tictac is scum here, FL? And that it's not something like Mena/Nashville wolves, Freedom maf?

[Klick]

I'd like to negotiate a scenario where we go on to have a town that can win this game after a Mafia elimination today.

Basically I have some pretty strong confidence in my townreads this game but I also think those players aren't that likely to stick together without me being here basically forcing them to stick together, especially with players like FL and Titus being in this endgame who can convince people of things through sheer force of will regardless of their alignment.

To be specific, Menalque and SoD are town and I'd really like it if I had confidence that they'd sheep me on each other if I wasn't around.

[Klick]

This is scum!Menalque approximately 0% of the time

[Klick]

Yeah I'm not interested in aiming for wolves today. That can be Mafia's problem if we miss, it shouldn't be too hard at that point. I want to hit Mafia.

I'm still not sold that FL is like, *comfirmed* Mafia, but that is currently my highest suspicion. I know tictac thinks it's just FL. I'm interested if anyone has other suspicions.

[Klick]

Is there anyone else you particularly read as town other than FL?

[Klick]

I really don’t think I make it through the night, though.

VOTE: TicTac

Just hit scum, and let the chips fall.

@Sword - TicTac moved off of Nashville, which is something I was testing.

Quite likely you don't, which is why I haven't voted you. The catch is that if I'm unsure if you're mafia, I am struggling to figure out where I should vote. If we vote you and you're town, then we go to 3 2 1.
Mafia must shoot a wolf. Wolves can shoot either but probably try for mafia.
If either misses, we either lose to wolves or go 2 1 1 kingmaker.

If we lim tictac and he flips wolf as expected, then wolves shoot you incorrectly. That puts us at 3 1 1 with mafia shot unknown. If mafia miss 2 1 1 kingmaker.

You wanted me to check this

In terms of pure math this is correct. I think the actual decisions made affect things significantly though. For example, I don't think Mafia misses, they shoot tictac who is probably a Wolf. The problem is that Wolves don't really have a big incentive to aim for Mafia.

That's the problem I have with the 2-1-1 Kingmaker scenario as well. One faction doesn't have incentive to aim for the other. We don't know which, but we know that the factions can't draw with only each other. That either means 0-1-1 is a 3-way draw, or otherwise one of the factions wins in 0-1-1.

[Klick]

Is there anyone else you particularly read as town other than FL?

You and Freedom. Maybe. I dunno. This entire game I've relied on my gut, but now my gut doesn't even know anymore.

I have Freedom as town. Where we differ is FL vs Menalque. I have Menalque as super hard town.

The problem I had last day phase was that I was concerned town couldn't come together and agree on voting out who the scum are. I think there's a chance we can make that happen now.

[Klick]

I don't think FL-town, Freedom-Maf is impossible though ftr. I think that's the second most likely scenario we're in.

[Klick]

I think tictac and Nashville are the wolves because everyone else is not a wolf.

[Klick]

I don't think FL-town, Freedom-Maf is impossible though ftr. I think that's the second most likely scenario we're in.

That overstated how likely I think that is ftr - I still think this is rather unlikely

[Klick]

The reasons he's been scumread link up really hard with the reasons I've been scumread and his approach considering his various issues with how this game has gone has been nearly identical to my own approach. I see Menalque as a mirror to me in this game. I also don't think his posts over the last 2-3 game days are a way that he'd be satisfied playing this as scum.

[Klick]

Basically if Menalque is scum here he has mirrored a town perspective on this game that is different from his own typical meta to an extreme level, in a way that accomplishes nothing except the potential to get exactly me to townread him. Because his approach has done him zero other favours in this game if he's scum.

He's just town.

[Klick]

I feel like even if you're town your elimination doesn't doom us. At that point the remaining Mafia really does have to shoot a Wolf, and the Wolves are better served shooting for Mafia than for Town to avoid Mafia shooting them again the next night.

[Klick]

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

[Klick]

I guess I just want to stress that like... I feel fairly strongly about my reads at the moment? And if you're not confident, and SoD isn't sure on his reads, then I'd love it if my reads were sheeped to endgame. Because I don't really see another valid way for town to come together for a win at this point other than getting behind a unified set of reads.

[Klick]

I guess I just want to stress that like... I feel fairly strongly about my reads at the moment? And if you're not confident, and SoD isn't sure on his reads, then I'd love it if my reads were sheeped to endgame. Because I don't really see another valid way for town to come together for a win at this point other than getting behind a unified set of reads.

Quoted for pagetop

[Klick]

Thoughts, SoD?
My main thing at the moment is that in order for town to win at this point, we need to get all four town on the same page. Unifying is just as important as getting it right. Without the town players on the same page, we cannot eliminate scum here.

[Klick]

I'd like to discuss this with you in particular SoD because I think you're very obvious town and think we need to cooperate to win.

[Klick]

I'd like to discuss this with you in particular SoD because I think you're very obvious town and think we need to cooperate to win.

Thoughts? I trust no one but Flavor.

I am confirmed town. I am a Mason, and MathBlade has a result on me that I am not a Werewolf. I cannot be scum here.

[Klick]

Howdy howdy

I have my result.

I was going to wait and see if CSF tested Klick but given CSF is dead then

VOTE: FL

Klick is not occult and is conf town.

So can we please elim FL now?

Titus can you please just let go of this FL is town pipe dream you have here?

It just doesn’t work.

[Klick]

I really don't want to just drop this into the chance that both scum teams decide it's in their best interests to aim for each other. But if that's what we have to do, then so be it.

It helps that that likely is both of their best plays, considering the town can't coordinate.

[Klick]

There is no sort of guarantee that Mafia and Wolves target each other tonight. Your plan assumes there is. But there isn't. I wish there was. But there is not.

[Klick]

I feel like even if you're town your elimination doesn't doom us. At that point the remaining Mafia really does have to shoot a Wolf, and the Wolves are better served shooting for Mafia than for Town to avoid Mafia shooting them again the next night.

This doesn't square with 'my fade leads to a Wolf victory almost 100% of the time'

[Klick]

There is no sort of guarantee that Mafia and Wolves target each other tonight. Your plan assumes there is. But there isn't. I wish there was. But there is not.

I'd rather take that chance.

With this, the last care I had goes out the window

[Klick]

VOTE: tictac

Not letting this turn into Mena getting mislimmed

[Klick]

Not interested in getting into a back-and-forth with FL or Titus about nonsense.

Hopefully Wolves see the necessity of killing FL tonight.

[Klick]

Ceph wouldn't put a Godfather in a game lol.

[Klick]

Ceph wouldn't put a Godfather in a game lol.

I'm going to look at this later and laugh, I think.

Ok

[Klick]

I say it as someone who knows Ceph rather well personally. Godfathers ain't it

[Klick]

If I'm scum most of the last two days would've been a complete waste of time when I could've just voted you yesterday instead of actively making a bnuuy vote happen.

[Klick]

At the very least I hope everyone recognises that Sword of Ducks is just blatantly town at this point.

[Klick]

This game features two scum factions. Their win conditions are not compatible to allow a joint win, and there is no such thing in this game as a draw between only certain factions.

Menalque is actively not thinking about this. That is because Menalque is town and it is not relevant to him.

[Klick]

I don't really have an opinion on how this play looks from Sword!town perspective
I do know Sword's play makes zero sense coming from scum

I also know FL is actively trying to pander to Sword with basically every post at the moment

[Klick]

Not interested in getting into a back-and-forth with FL or Titus about nonsense.

Hopefully Wolves see the necessity of killing FL tonight.

It’s a forced draw between wolves and maf atp unless either side gets greedy

Menalque, in this post, is not aware of the fact that scum can't draw between themselves.

This is information that Menalque would be aware of, if scum.

[Klick]

I don't really have an opinion on how this play looks from Sword!town perspective
I do know Sword's play makes zero sense coming from scum

I also know FL is actively trying to pander to Sword with basically every post at the moment

This is not alignment specific.

Didn't say it was. Sword should definitely be aware of this, though.

[Klick]

Not interested in getting into a back-and-forth with FL or Titus about nonsense.

Hopefully Wolves see the necessity of killing FL tonight.

It’s a forced draw between wolves and maf atp unless either side gets greedy

Menalque, in this post, is not aware of the fact that scum can't draw between themselves.

This is information that Menalque would be aware of, if scum.

So you use this to town case Menalque but when I brought up drawing tomorrow, it’s different?

You brought it up directly after seeing Menalque townslip on it.

[Klick]

Quote shouldn't be there

[Klick]

@Klick - who should Mafia shoot?

Who should wolves shoot?

Like from your POV, who do you shoot in those scenarios.

I'd rather Mafia and Wolves make the choices that they're going to make without further influence from me.

I think I'd like the things I've posted about in the last page to not get flooded out.

[Klick]

Not interested in getting into a back-and-forth with FL or Titus about nonsense.

Hopefully Wolves see the necessity of killing FL tonight.

It’s a forced draw between wolves and maf atp unless either side gets greedy

Menalque, in this post, is not aware of the fact that scum can't draw between themselves.

This is information that Menalque would be aware of, if scum.

[Klick]

Well that's an incredibly validating flip!

We won't rush today. We've got lots of time to come to a decision on the last wolf. I'm certainly leaning Nashville at the moment, but I'll give the game another proper look at least.

[Klick]

Can you remind me what all your results are Nashville?

[Klick]

We won't rush today.

Not necessarily binding fwiw

[Klick]

*popcorn*

[Klick]

I suppose that's SoD confirmed town, though he was never getting voted here anyway

[Klick]

Nashville claimed Vanilla Cop

[Klick]

That's why we're now in a you vs Nashville situation.

I'm going through some of Nero Cain's old games right now

[Klick]

I don't think the Freedom slot is scum at all.

[Klick]

Nero Cain is slightly more rigid and goal-oriented as scum from what I've read
This Nero has malleable thoughts and reads and isn't trying to heavily push the gamestate, which lines up more with his town game

Also if Wallflower was a Wolf she spent all of D1 hard bussing and distancing her whole team. She had a huge town list and none of them were wolves, except bnuuy at the bottom of her list. And she was the hardest voice against catboi. I don't think that's like impossible to do as scum, but it's definitely taking the hard road.

[Klick]

@Titus/Mala: What have you done in this game that you feel you wouldn't have done as scum?

[Klick]

As for 11692, I don't feel I have a townrange or a scumrange. It's more about my relationships. So I'm not going to pretend there's a magical towntell for reading me.

Fair enough. I think there are definitely players that would have a confident answer to this, but I believe you when you say you don't.

@Klick, Nero Cain always FoSes me as town. It doesn't matter his alignment. You can check every single game we are in together. He FoSes me. He didn't here.

I'm not sure what I'm meant to extrapolate from this?

[Klick]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

[Klick]

I can't tell if you're trying to confuse us into not suspecting you or what.

Nashville claims Vanilla Cop
Nashville claims Freedom is Not Vanilla
Freedom claims Vanilla

= either Nashville or Freedom is lying.

[Klick]

I feel confident enough to vote right now based on my own reading. If you want to change my mind, the way to do it will be by showing me how the Freedom slot is scum here.

[Klick]

Basically, we're still playing Mafia. If you're town, take the scum and show me why they're scum. You might have confbias now, but if you're town you should still see where the slot does things that help the Wolves.

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Klick]

By the way, can anybody explain why scum!me doesn't just NK Klick instead of FL? It is more beneficial if scum!me wants to win.

I'd like to hear a response to this from Nashville

[Klick]

SoD Vanilla
Mastina not vanilla
Cassowary not vanilla
Keeper not vanilla
Bnuuy vanilla
Menalque vanilla
Freedom not vanilla

Something I'm particularly bothered by is that every single result Nashville has given is confirming (or in Freedom's case, refuting) the claim of someone who had already claimed in the thread.

[Klick]

So I love to hear sort of the justification behind the targets you chose each night Nashville. I'm assuming you both discussed it between each other each night?

[Klick]

SoD Vanilla
Mastina not vanilla
Cassowary not vanilla
Keeper not vanilla
Bnuuy vanilla
Menalque vanilla
Freedom not vanilla

Something I'm particularly bothered by is that every single result Nashville has given is confirming (or in Freedom's case, refuting) the claim of someone who had already claimed in the thread.

I largely unilaterally made the choices towards the later half.

I deliberately wanted to target outed roles to confirm or deny scum as it is highest utility. People pushed Sword, and I think Freedom did in particular (if memory serves), but I didn't want to eliminate my match. If mastina was a vanilla, they'd be outed scum. Cassowary got a nonvanilla result, when we suspected most town would be vanilla. Hence the minor FoS.

Afterwards, we massclaimed, so we could only confirm or deny. That's the point of a VC.

What went into the Keeper decision?

[Klick]

I deliberately wanted to target outed roles to confirm or deny scum as it is highest utility.

Would you consider this sort of the 'guiding principle' behind the choices you made?

Also is this Titus making these decisions?

[Klick]

@SoD I'm curious what you think.

[Klick]

I won’t vote yet in case ducks/freedom wanna respond to that

I would prefer tictac being limmed before FL.

I think there's very little reason for this as a wolf when just going for a FL vote probably just wins Freedom the game.

[Klick]

Freedom, when you read through upon replace-in, how much did you read? And how much would you say you have read since then?

[Klick]

Frankly I think Freedom's play also makes little sense as wolf. His reads are all over the place early upon replace-in. He has tictac/bnuuy/Menalque as his initial PoE, then quickly switches Mena to leaning town without explanation. He then has tictac/bnuuy/SoD, but goes off the SoD scumread as well before deciding he is 'misreading' Nashville. His constants are scumreads on tictac and bnuuy. I feel this would be a very strange way to play it out as scum with the information we have, but I have no issues seeing it as a town thought process.

[Klick]

VOTE: Nashville Dreams

I have done proper consideration of the possibility of Freedom!scum, and I don't think that's a conclusion I'm going to come to today.

[Klick]

(~_~ )

[Klick]

The game isn't progressing.
Still interested if you're leaning any particular direction, SoD. The longer we wait the more I start to overthink things in a way that isn't really helpful for finding out which of them it actually is.

[Klick]

Basically, having someone else's perspective here would be the only thing left that could give me a new helpful view of things I think.

[Klick]

Freedom, can you talk to me about your read on SoD as you replaced in? What were your initial thoughts on him, and why/how did they change? I want a fairly clear picture of how you read the slot over time, and what things changed your read.

[Klick]

As I said in 11269, I trusted SoD when I repped in. I forgot what made me think that TBH.

But this is the bit I'm most interested in! You had them as one of your four trusted players, surely there's something you can remember from your catch-up?

[Klick]

Fair enough, it happens haha.

[Klick]

I don't have much more to say right this second really

[Klick]

Welcome MT, thanks for helping us finish up this game.

To be clear, if the last Werewolf didn't kill FL last night, then there would be no elimination today and scum would shoot again to close out the game. Town would just lose by eliminating at 2-1-1.

[Klick]

Yeeting FL today would never have been an option. 2-1-1 is never a scenario in which town would eliminate anyone.

I think FL legitimately thought Menalque was the wolf and didn't really differentiate between Nashville and Freedom.

[Klick]

Nashville and Freedom have also both generally townread each other prior to this endgame.

[Klick]

MT, if you want more time for this then I don't mind if you want to no lim today and make the decision tomorrow.

[Klick]

(I mean a large part of me does want this game to just be over but for game-winning purposes the above applies lol)

[Klick]

This is a nice sight to wake up to

Well played all, glad this mess turned a win in the end.

[Klick]

Could we have the scum PTs?