Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[hutmeil]

i see what mala is saying, but that is probably not going to stop me from demanding more effort from her today

i'm gonna go eat something, then start going through on-wagon slots

Ditto. I re-read some of VP's post and saw this 1391. I guess VP was no longer SRing Mala towards the end.

But same point as Dats, Mala should post more today.

@hut, what is the current status of your save the dragons read, and why?

Vulture's mason thing is still noted. However, I don't see anything scummy with what STDs been doing up to now. Plus the fact that he TRs me eventhough I've SRd that slot at first tells me that he's really playing the game and analyzes things. STD!scum could have seen I was LHF and pushed there but didn't.

So overall, I'm getting townie vibes from the slot.

Just want to point out that VP had 3 SRs - Peng/Mala/Andante. He got Peng right. Maybe that got him NKd? I get the Mala SR. But Andante I have to think about more...

he tunneled me at one point sure, but if he still SRed me he'd have kept tunneling? so idk what the point you're trying to make here even is? Scum was obv hunting for masons, killed someone that no one SRed, assuming he'd be mason, and they were wrong, there's is no way scum kills him for his reads cause I'm town, and if this is your attempt to start a tunnel on me? think again

Hmmm, I'm not sure he dropped his SR on you? See 1371. I acknowledge implo's post 1626 on why you might be town. But this could be WIFOM so I'm still sus on that since the only conftown (VP) we have , has been SRing you from the beginning.

i know hut was trying to say BREAKING DAWN PART 1 but the thread was locked before they could and i tr them for that

LOL!

sorry if you're not a he hutmeil, i don't know what your pronouns are and i default to he

Yup, I'm a he!

[fireisredsir]

yea ok hut can be town

this game is easy let's gooooo

VOTE: georgebailey

[Andante]

Hmmm, I'm not sure he dropped his SR on you? See 1371. I acknowledge implo's post 1626 on why you might be town. But this could be WIFOM so I'm still sus on that since the only conftown (VP) we have , has been SRing you from the beginning.

hut if you want to 1v1 me let's go. Why am I scum. We're not playing this game all day of "oh you must've killed VP for his read on you" let me hear the case. lets go. let me hear it.

[Andante]

cause I don't like this weak push on me, you are literally waiting to see if someone agrees with you before you push this take, so let's hear it. Why is andante maf?

[Andante]

Actually, hut I have an easier question for you, as much as I want you to actually commit to this SR on me,

I also want to know, do you genuinely believe the only reason VP died was cause of his reads being "100% correct"

Why is it so hard to believe he died due to being a universal TR, and SRed by literally no one.. meaning, from a mafia pov, he would most likely be a mason. This is also kinda tripping me up, cause hut, you're all "VP died cause of andante!!!" but that's the "entire case" also... lol at the pop in right as we're talking about you

[implosion]

my first thought is that the day's yeet should be on-wagon. while i'm not gonna force this if someone off-wagon scumclaims, my recent experience from the champs game is telling me that there's probably scum on-wagon, at least one if not both. i think most scumteams can't help but jump onto the wagon as they see the buddy going down. especially with a wagon that seemed as easy (or stalled i guess?) as penguin's

i agree there are a lot of *possible* explanations for why penguin didn't fight back, but i think all of them (other than "other scum were literally not playing at all and had no clue what was going on") mean that at some point, other scum were going to be inclined to bus penguin. do you disagree with this assessment?

I feel that this washes over an important layer of nuance. Scumteams aren't hiveminds, they're players who are already embroiled in the gamestate. Could GeorgeBailey have jumped on the wagon as he saw Penguin going down? No, because his only stated scumread was hutmeil, the other wagon, there'd have been no way to do so convincingly. Could Malakittens? Not really, she posted almost no content after the wagons got to their late-day state, she probably didn't have RL time to craft a narrative for a bussing jump that would look legitimate (evidenced by the fact that she didn't jump on Penguin even as the alternative shifted from hutmeil to her). Could Something_Smart? He's not exactly known as a wagon hopper but yeah, he could have in theory, but is Something_Smart the kind of player that would feel that sort of pressure to bus? I don't think he is, or at least not in the same way, due to his meta. I could go through this exercise for more players but basically this is a blanket statement that I think ignores the realities of how scum have to play a game.

and i skimmed a bit around that vc, it seems like baltar was pretty loudly advocating for penguin and against hutmeil wagons? which makes it at least more likely someone bussed imo

Why does this make it more likely someone bussed? Wouldn't scum typically want to kill on-wagon if there were no bussers?

[hutmeil]

Hmmm, I'm not sure he dropped his SR on you? See 1371. I acknowledge implo's post 1626 on why you might be town. But this could be WIFOM so I'm still sus on that since the only conftown (VP) we have , has been SRing you from the beginning.

hut if you want to 1v1 me let's go. Why am I scum. We're not playing this game all day of "oh you must've killed VP for his read on you" let me hear the case. lets go. let me hear it.

Uhmmmm I'm quite zzzzzz ..... You're not a sure scum for me, if you remember my list D1, I actually TL you. Others here do too. But I can't ignore our only conftown's SR on you though. Of course he could be wrong.

You tried to divert the Peng wagon to Mala. Implo said Andante!scum would not this because it's useless to save a scummate that's about to go down. But I say maybe Andante!scum is trying to WIFOM and devious so she goes with it to appear towny.

I'm just putting this out here for everyone to think about since you asked for more info.

[hutmeil]

Actually, hut I have an easier question for you, as much as I want you to actually commit to this SR on me,

I also want to know, do you genuinely believe the only reason VP died was cause of his reads being "100% correct"

Why is it so hard to believe he died due to being a universal TR, and SRed by literally no one.. meaning, from a mafia pov, he would most likely be a mason. This is also kinda tripping me up, cause hut, you're all "VP died cause of andante!!!" but that's the "entire case" also... lol at the pop in right as we're talking about you

I don't remember saying that's my only reason? That post was just a different point of view that we could look into.

To be clear, I agree that scum is mason hunting just because that's they're best play.

[hutmeil]

*their

[implosion]

And my implosion issues were with 1111 and 1113
Like, those posts talking about penguin just feel super odd/distancey to me, cause this is the point where the Penguin SR is gaining momentum, so it's like "here's awkward posts that will later justify my SR on penguin... and to me they feel very odd, but then his response to me last night didn't seem too bad? but these 2 posts, I still can't get over how non towny they seem with their approach to penguin

I kind of feel like just not responding to this but bleh.

I sort of disagree that this is the "point" where the penguin SR gains momentum; it's the point where my read on Penguin is refining from "absent but should be easy to read if he shows up" to "okay, he really needs to actually show up at this point bc what he's posted is slightly nonsense".

The 1111 question is me trying, essentially one last time, to get Penguin to interact meaningfully with me.

1113 I sort of see what you're saying; it's also sort of a desperate "if Penguin is town I should be able to figure that out but he's not letting me", but it's also sort of the first thing in Penguin's play that I actually found explicitly scummy. So yeah like. The explanation you gave is theoretically sound if I'm scum. I just happen to not be. I can understand someone not liking the way I jumped on Penguin, but also it's really not like it was inevitable that Penguin was going down by the time I jumped him, and also if this is the point where momentum shifted against Penguin, then I'm like, a significant reason for that shift. I mean you cited your earlier post as the "first good point against penguin" or something, but in that post, you also say that I've already kind of said what you're saying there about penguin >_>

(still catching up)

[Andante]

if you remember my list D1, I actually TL you.

I do, which is why I'm confused why you're suddenly like "the only reason VP died was his reads"

But I can't ignore our only conftown's SR on you though. Of course he could be wrong.

so when he's alive, you didn't care about his reads, but now that he's dead. we must put his "reads" on this high pedestal? you town leaned me, and he had me as like lock scum half the day.. if you actually cared about his reads, why did you not interact while he was alive?

You tried to divert the Peng wagon to Mala.

Yeah, because he was copying his town game... as I literally pointed out.. said he was town or scum copying his town meta.. I had penguin as a SR till he got townier, and then mala continued to do nothing, except when she was under pressure, like, I have no problem with the fact I was trying to flip it to mala, remember how you were sheeping VP? VP also SRed Mala. So if we're playing by VP's reads, I flipped it from 1 maf to another... we have no way of knowing what the exact situation was till mala flips. And if mala flips red, I'd almost bet we're not having this conversation about how I'm maf for trying to flip the wagon to mala

Implo said Andante!scum would not this because it's useless to save a scummate that's about to go down. But I say maybe Andante!scum is trying to WIFOM and devious so she goes with it to appear towny.

Right, cause I'd make a SOLID case about penguin being scum, then completely move on... as scum. I litereally was like "yall. I really think penguin scum" at one point, and shortly after that penguin was changing up his play, so I had doubts, and a mala wagon literally was not bad there...

I'm just putting this out here for everyone to think about since you asked for more info.

What is there to even think about?

[Something_Smart]

that was a joke but the fact that gamma felt liberated enough to do that makes me feel town vibes

Idk, in RC's uPick Gamma spammed for pages to make it the longest D1 ever. I think if she felt liberated enough to do that as scum she can make a single Twilight joke.

[Andante]

And my implosion issues were with 1111 and 1113
Like, those posts talking about penguin just feel super odd/distancey to me, cause this is the point where the Penguin SR is gaining momentum, so it's like "here's awkward posts that will later justify my SR on penguin... and to me they feel very odd, but then his response to me last night didn't seem too bad? but these 2 posts, I still can't get over how non towny they seem with their approach to penguin

I kind of feel like just not responding to this but bleh.

I sort of disagree that this is the "point" where the penguin SR gains momentum; it's the point where my read on Penguin is refining from "absent but should be easy to read if he shows up" to "okay, he really needs to actually show up at this point bc what he's posted is slightly nonsense".

The 1111 question is me trying, essentially one last time, to get Penguin to interact meaningfully with me.

1113 I sort of see what you're saying; it's also sort of a desperate "if Penguin is town I should be able to figure that out but he's not letting me", but it's also sort of the first thing in Penguin's play that I actually found explicitly scummy. So yeah like. The explanation you gave is theoretically sound if I'm scum. I just happen to not be. I can understand someone not liking the way I jumped on Penguin, but also it's really not like it was inevitable that Penguin was going down by the time I jumped him, and also if this is the point where momentum shifted against Penguin, then I'm like, a significant reason for that shift. I mean you cited your earlier post as the "first good point against penguin" or something, but in that post, you also say that I've already kind of said what you're saying there about penguin >_>

(still catching up)

hmmm I don't think I want to flip you for now.. I guess you're safe lol

and yall, is it a bad idea to flip mala? like, she needs to give like significantly towny stuff to save her here, but like, I kinda still agree with my d1 "case" where she does nothing unless there's actual pressure, and especially since the counter was a maf wagon, I really don't see why the mala wagon gained no momentum

[fireisredsir]

im also good with mala

im trying not to get too confbiased here but everything i see continues to fit with how i currently view the gamestate

and that gamestate includes the scumteam being exactly mala+george

[implosion]

I mean, I'm 100% certain there's at least 1 partner on that wagon, basically why I was really looking at implosion like "what are these posts..." with 1111 and 1113

Strong statement.

Why do you think e.g. a Malakittens/GeorgeBailey scumteam is literally 0% likely to be the case? Like,

george didn't do anything all game, and mala was VERY absent at that eod.... you're trying to tell me, scum!george and scum!mala were trying to wagon hut to save penguin??? WHAT KIND OF LOGIC IS THIS???

I know this was responding to fire, but no I'm not saying this, I'm saying they could be scum who just... didn't jump, and not for any real reason. Just because they didn't. They weren't there to, and even if they were there, maybe they wouldn't have.

[implosion]

VOTE: GeorgeBailey

[hutmeil]

But I can't ignore our only conftown's SR on you though. Of course he could be wrong.

so when he's alive, you didn't care about his reads, but now that he's dead. we must put his "reads" on this high pedestal? you town leaned me, and he had me as like lock scum half the day.. if you actually cared about his reads, why did you not interact while he was alive?

He TRd me, and I TRd him. I don't think there was anything to discuss.

You tried to divert the Peng wagon to Mala.

Yeah, because he was copying his town game... as I literally pointed out.. said he was town or scum copying his town meta.. I had penguin as a SR till he got townier, and then mala continued to do nothing, except when she was under pressure, like, I have no problem with the fact I was trying to flip it to mala, remember how you were sheeping VP? VP also SRed Mala. So if we're playing by VP's reads, I flipped it from 1 maf to another... we have no way of knowing what the exact situation was till mala flips. And if mala flips red, I'd almost bet we're not having this conversation about how I'm maf for trying to flip the wagon to mala

Exactly why I don't like meta-gaming. Anyone can game others by copying their meta.

Implo said Andante!scum would not this because it's useless to save a scummate that's about to go down. But I say maybe Andante!scum is trying to WIFOM and devious so she goes with it to appear towny.

Right, cause I'd make a SOLID case about penguin being scum, then completely move on... as scum. I litereally was like "yall. I really think penguin scum" at one point, and shortly after that penguin was changing up his play, so I had doubts, and a mala wagon literally was not bad there...

You have a point here. But still that's just one possibility.

[fireisredsir]

datisi can we do off-wagon today pls

i think ari's vca is good

[implosion]

I like StD's reasons for townreading hutmeil, for both StD and hutmeil. I think it doesn't really feel like a sort of pet townread or a pocket from StD scum, I think he feels earnest in not being totally sure but having these vibes and wanting to explain them. I think the points around hutmeil essentially looking like he's trying make sense. I'd been thinking after the flip that hutmeil is probably town mostly for wagon reasons because I don't really feel like yesterday shakes down the way it did if it was 2 scum wagons, though I can't really give a good explicit reason why.

I think my reads right now are something like this (unordered within tiers):

{StD, hutmeil, Andante, Datisi, Gamma}
-gap-
{fire, S_S}
{Aristeia}
{Mala, GeorgeBailey}

Some caveats/descriptions for some people I haven't elaborated on: 1) I think Datisi becomes somewhat more likely scum if he lives for like, two more days. But I still would probably think he's more likely town than scum. 2) Aristeia is in a sort of limbo. I need to put more effort into sorting her. 3) Gamma just feels strongly like PYP to me and StD was also in that game, and is describing a Gamma scum game that was very different, and I feel like meta is a pretty effective way to read Gamma in general. And I don't think I've been wrong about her in a while iirc.

[Andante]

VOTE: Malakittens

[Aristeia]

I feel like if hutmeil/pengy were scum/scum it would've made much more sense for them to consolidate on Fire or decide to sheep there rather than consolidate on each other and make two big s/s wagons which is kind of ???

[Aristeia]

implosion's reasoning for his pengy progression makes sense to me - I also don't see why scum!implosion doesn't just sheep VPBaltar on the Andante push rather than waiting to sheep him on the Pengy push instead - that seems silly and self-defeating.

[Save The Dragons]

i regret posting that because now people are going to be like "your town read of gamma sucks because it's based on her saying Eclipse" when it's really more importantly based on vibes about her play this game

that was a joke but the fact that gamma felt liberated enough to do that makes me feel town vibes

Idk, in RC's uPick Gamma spammed for pages to make it the longest D1 ever. I think if she felt liberated enough to do that as scum she can make a single Twilight joke.

[Aristeia]

Yeah, because he was copying his town game... as I literally pointed out.. said he was town or scum copying his town meta

I think this is factually untrue.

Town penguin under pressure is kind of angry sounding - this penguin came back to being top wagon and lol-catted and claimed it would be sad he wouldn't get to analyze these wagons or w/e. There was no blaming the town for being "wrong".

[Something_Smart]

-

I literally didn't say the thing you said you were afraid of people saying