Mini Normal 2276: Around the World - Game Over!

[Alexcellent]

Lol I forgot Corwin was bulletproof as well, yikes

[Alexcellent]

So the setup would look something like this?

1. Town Simple Traffic Analyser Neighbour
2. Town Simple Vigilante Neighbour
3. Town Novice Complex Non-Consecutive Friendly Neighbour

4. Town Ascetic Miller Mailman
5. Town Simple Doctor Voyeur
6. Town One-Shot Novice Complex Vigilante
7. Town Neighbour

8. VT

9. VT
10. VT
11. Mafia ??
12. Mafia ??

13. Mafia Bulletproof Traitor Jailkeeper Neighbour

Coloured lines are ones confirmed via flips.

That just feels like way too few VTs for a game that has multiple roles that only get anything out of interacting with a vanilla role.
Crescent was VT. We have myself, Marci, Scamp, Gamma all claiming Vanilla. I assume that at least one scum is probably just a goon. If Corwin wasn't a traitor I'd say it could just be goons left.
Feeling like at least one of those PR claims is bogus. I could see one scum make a claim and the second scum just lay low as VT or something. Idk, I have no hot takes here.

P-edit: lots of posts happening
P-edit 2: I'm not cleared at all.

[Alexcellent]

If I were judging on play alone I'd be heavily suspecting Freedom. I guess he could be scum based on the fact that we had a friendly neighbour so that maybe makes it more possible that there were 2 scum in the hood.
I've been town reading there largely over the setup and also I was townreading Shoshin but that's from a lot of minor early D1 stuff.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking. Sticking to my guns and saying Freedom is town.

[Alexcellent]

Those claims are so good, like in a shit way. Like simple doctor is so useless here, it fits this game perfectly. And 1-shot complex vig... I'm kind of inclined to buy it because the fact it's 1-shot vs. the simple vig which wasn't 1-shot I think implies this probably is a very PR heavy game? So maybe there are only 3 VTs. I can see that being like a balance thing. But also it being 1-shot and apparently that shot already being used, it's impossible to prove/disprove going forward, we just have to accept what Datisi's saying.

Think Ausuka is right and probably just need to vote based on actual play and content.
Will wait for Johnny's results too though.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah Idk. There's a scenario here where scum could have already won if Datisi's claim is legit.

D1/N1: town mislims, StD shoots a VT, scum shoot a townie
D2/N2: town mislims, StD shoots a VT, Datisi shoots a town PR, scum shoots a townie

7 townies dead before D3 starts which would leave us with 3 scum/ 3 town, GG. This is assuming this isn't like a 2 scum game for some reason.
Odds of this happening are super unlikely and would mean a next level bad performance by town and vigs but it's still a possibility and I feel like that's a thing that might get brought up for review? But I don't mod or review games so maybe someone can correct me. This just feels like it may not be balanced.

[Alexcellent]

What message did Ausuka send you Freedom?

They claimed their role and said that they figured out that the hood is all PRs, which they thought scum might've done as well after Corwin's flip.
They told me that who they suspected to be scum and told me to crumb in my daystart post, recommending the word 'even' to tell them that I recieved their message.

But you're not a PR outside of being a hoody?

[Alexcellent]

viewtopic.php?p=13378298&user_select%5B ... #p13378298

I think this is an interesting read

My first thought here is just like, she seems to struggle with scumplay a bit? So I'm more inclined to think she's scum here rather than too-scummy-to-be-scum.

Also she said she tends to be more bitchy as scum? I'm not 100% sure whether or not that applies here and I think it's hard to evaluate without being Potentially Rude

Yeah okay I’m on board now

UNVOTE: Johnny
VOTE: Marci

Reading through Alex's ISO the thing that stands out most from day 1 is this post. He pretty consistently townreads Marcistar before this point and while I can see how this meta point could make him doubt that townread, the flip onto the wagon feels very ???

Yeah I still don't really know what to make of Marci. D1 is a crapshoot for me and I don't really trust my reads much. I thought she was probably town early on but then her reaction under pressure combined with some of the scum meta that was shared on her made me happy enough to join the wagon.

She made some D2 posts that look a bit more convincing as town and I feel like scum would be trying harder to appear helpful if that makes sense? But yeah hard to read.
I do kind of like the logic that there's likely scum between her and Datisi.

[Alexcellent]

I asked a magic 8-ball

[Alexcellent]

@Ausuka, what do you think of Johnny?

[Alexcellent]

Datisi what's the progression you found?

Spoiler:

ur so buddy buddy

in before

I see.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think the scummy stuff necessarily needs to be looked at through the lens of a scum strategy.

This is a good point.
Not everybody strategises as scum. Some people as scum panic and do ridiculous things like locking into a minigame that is the easiest for scum in GotF early.

noo can we pretend it was planned... my egos shattered....
early game is easiest to find if im scum i think since ill panic easier... but my associatives always suck ass too so

can we vote corwin

Explain.
Is it to do with their push on STD?

no
its bcuz of the buddy buddying!!

in before

I see.

What I'm trying to say is I don't think the scummy stuff necessarily needs to be looked at through the lens of a scum strategy.

This is a good point.
Not everybody strategises as scum. Some people as scum panic and do ridiculous things like locking into a minigame that is the easiest for scum in GotF early.

noo can we pretend it was planned... my egos shattered....
early game is easiest to find if im scum i think since ill panic easier... but my associatives always suck ass too so

can we vote corwin

Explain.
Is it to do with their push on STD?

no
its bcuz of the buddy buddying!!

I see.
Where did STD buddy Corwin?

not that

i think corwin buddy buddied bellaphant

i don't think that main-scum, who is aware that there is a traitor in the game, goes out and attacks someone for "buddying". i think that buddying is something they'd actively be on the lookout for from their traitor, so it's counter-intuitive to be making false cases on people getting "buddied" because that's something they're currently looking for.

but even if she did to this^^, then i think there would've been a progression of "aha, i said corwin is buddying bella!! corwin flipped traitor!! therefore xyz" and not whatever 1679 is, which was also made after she was specifically asked, as opposed to immediately/early

i'm not sure i fully get this read but it feels like a read that comes from town in terms of it being a slightly outside the box thought process, and im somewhat thinking marci is town regardless

tbh though going back to yesterday, I do sort of like this as a good point for town!Datisi. I find it hard to think scum!Datisi gives this sort of town read on Marci and Scamper's analysis of it being outside the box seems pretty solid.

P-edit: that's a spicy take, I think half of it could be accurate

[Alexcellent]

What does reverse volume clear mean?

[Alexcellent]

i dont change reads often

I mean maybe I'm misunderstanding your reads then but i think it's still true that it's not super clear what's going on in the Mind of Marcistar

I was getting town vibes from johnny earlier but like, he hasn't been doing much sorting or evaluation? Especially I feel like he's basically just had one push on Alex sustained the whole game. So I don't really know. What do you think about him?

I am the only person he has voted all game, so that probably influences my view of him since he looks to me like someone that's done nothing but push against town all game. The fact his reads don't seem to have advanced at all since D1 is concerning. He also pushed for Bella's claim before she was at E-1 which felt off. He's really had little to no interaction with her and it's hard to see anything in the way of pro-town scumhunting in his ISO. The only things that make me hesitate there is that he might just be lazy town. Still waiting on his results.

[Alexcellent]

I've seen scum!Datisi a couple times now and this isn't it. If you don't have much of an opinion on him then he's very likely town; he's generally high activity as scum and working hard to make people want to keep him around and empathize with him.

eh maybe he's town i dunno. i think scum datisi would have more wall-y posts

look

do you think i make these kills at night

wake up sheeple

I mean this is a bit WIFOMy. But also, I was thinking about StD mentioning that. I don't know how you play as scum but the dead people seemed to think you're town so ehh and have meta with you.

[Alexcellent]

volume clear is when you clear someone because they're posting too much for their scumrange

i'd be efforting much more if i were scum here lole

i think my issue here is that nobody instinctually makes sense as scum. like, johnny does, but like he doesn't strike me as a type of scum player to come up with the claim he did come up, yknow. unless he's scum with like, idk, ausuka or something. and i don't wanna think about that

A bunch of the flips have been simple or complex so far. I don't think it's too much of a stretch for scum to throw that role together. But yeah I don't know. I kind of still am inclined to think that there'd be more VTs in a game with multiple simple-modified PRs.

[Alexcellent]

new hot take

alex/johnny?

I don’t think Johnny’s role is scum based on Corwin’s flip
I also don’t think he’s fake claiming

What's the correlation between Corwin's flip and Johnny's alignment?

[Alexcellent]

gamma, who is scum?

My best guess atm is Ausuka/Marci

Imma also need to hear more on this

[Alexcellent]

You know what, this may be controversial but I'm actually inclined to town just leave corwin for today. He did mention some rl shit in the newbie and like....if he's scum, we don't need to sort it today.

I'm soft, though.

scum post
VOTE: bellaphant

nah bella scumclaimed
I caught a grammatical error that indicates she backtracked on calling Corwin town and instead opted to just say she was leaving him alone for today

You know what, this may be controversial but I'm actually inclined to town just leave corwin for today. He did mention some rl shit in the newbie and like....if he's scum, we don't need to sort it today.

I'm soft, though.

scum post
VOTE: bellaphant

Does Corwin buddy up Bella right away if they're both scum?

don't think they're both scum if I'm right
scum would be more likely to backtrack calling someone town if they wanted to keep them as a misyeet for later

the issue is the TYPE of error
why did you backtrack that thought of Corwin being town?

I didn't. Town clearly doesn't belong in that post. When I type to into my phone, the middle option comes up as town. I just wrote 'to' twice and it autocorrected.

I get what you are saying, but that sentence would have to end very differently for it to make sense? I hadn't said they were town before, so why would I be inclined to leave corwin as 'town', if I was scum? If not only have had to write nonsense, but to....lie about a read I'd been really clear on and provided evidence for?

If I was scum and the sentence ended 'town bin' or whatever, what's my motivation for even posting?

okay
VOTE: Corwinoid

Wouldn't mind opinions on this progression. This is from D1, Gamma was voting Corwin and then he jumps onto Bella for a grammatical thing. An hour later moves back to Corwin.
The thought crossed my mind that maybe it's scum!Gamma just wanting to get off the Corwin wagon realising maybe Corwin is likely the traitor? But overall it does have an organic "I found a scumslip!" feel to it. Kind of think if scum wanted off the Corwin wagon, they'd come up with something else? This just feels like a weird little detour from Corwin to Bella for scum to make.

[Alexcellent]

I guess so.

Game is hard.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Ausuka
Something just clicked for me, I’m 100% on this read. Not that I expect to get him voted out but fuck it, legacy vote.

[Alexcellent]

yeah, i do see where you're coming from and i think it's +town for gamma but i think there are more reasons to be suspicious?

did you think my reasons for voting gamma made sense?

Sort of. I think you have some points but I don't think any is like a smoking gun or anything. But the 839 you quoted does look bad.

Do you have much meta with Gamma?

VOTE: gamma

meh

someone convince me it's not gamma/marci i guess

How about the fact that leaves 2 fucking VTs when typically in my exp the minimum tends to range out at 4
Turn on your fucking brain asshole

^ is this sort of tone normal or alignment indicative for him at all? I've seen a few pretty snappy and defensive posts. That's not always AI though.

It did strike me when Gamma was complaining about the setup and review mod that it just felt weird. Like he's simultaneously bought the PR claims and is angry at the set up but also trying to fight the legitimacy of the claims.
It's hypocritical of me though since I'm sceptical about Datisi and Johnny's claims myself. But I think that does give more weight to the idea of Marci/Gamma being the team.

[Alexcellent]

@Gamma, what's your case on Ausuka? And why do you think Johnny's alignment is related to Corwin's flip?

[Alexcellent]

Kinda feel that TBH I don't really expect these kinds of roles in a 'normal' game but maybe that's sour grapes on my part. They're all normal in the wiki so it's fair game, I guess.


I don't think Ausuka is scum. Or rather, only way I think Ausuka can be scum is if they're a mafia mailman and lied about the miller part, or it's Ausuka/Freedom. Which, either way, GG? Regardless of what Ausuka's claimed though I feel like their entire play up until now has been crazy pro-town and it's so hard to fake a lot of that content IMO.

I'd be open to a discussion on why there's an ascetic miller mailman in a game that doesn't appear to have a cop. Have we discussed that yet and I missed it? Is the implication that there's a mafia cop? Or is it just a troll role?

P-Edit: I have noticed that one tends to follow the other and they seem very on the same page a lot. You don't think that it could be the other way though? And it's scum!Datisi buddying to town!Ausuka?

[Alexcellent]

@Gamma, what's your case on Ausuka? And why do you think Johnny's alignment is related to Corwin's flip?

As for Corwin’s flip impacting Johnny, I heavily doubt scum have both a Doctor and JK on the team. That would make the vigs near-useless. I have a baseline for this from a review of a large normal I designed so I can refer to that if needed. I also think his role has to exist since otherwise some other scum role had to have interfered with STD’s shot.

Okay I follow now... I think it's possible though that Johnny just made it up and could be some other form of scum PR maybe.
But yeah I don't know.

It's been a long time since we've heard from Johnny, still waiting on them results.

[Alexcellent]

I don't think Ausuka is scum. Or rather, only way I think Ausuka can be scum is if they're a mafia mailman and lied about the miller part, or it's Ausuka/Freedom. Which, either way, GG? Regardless of what Ausuka's claimed though I feel like their entire play up until now has been crazy pro-town and it's so hard to fake a lot of that content IMO.

How has his play been "crazy pro-town"?
Also I accused Ausuka over Datisi because I had previous thought Ausuka was possibly buddying Bella. So given one charge of buddying or two, I'm gonna suspect the person with 2.

Their ISO is full of what appears to be genuine attempts to solve the game and sort people between town and scum IMO. If that approach dropped off after D1 then I'd say it could have been them trying to figure out the traitor but it is extremely difficult to view Ausuka's play as scummy to me.

[Alexcellent]

i also think my read on freedom has grown really stale and i should prob revisit that

I'm very paranoid of Freedom because a lot of my town read there hinges on my feeling that Corwin was likely the only hood scum. I did feel that Shoshin was probably town but like, it's not based on anything remotely solid. Freedom's had very little actual contribution in a pro-town sense.

[Alexcellent]

someone ask me abt stuff while im.in imense pain and laying in bed and maybe ill be forced to answer due to bordem jdjdjsjjd

What are your current reads outside of Gamma?

[Alexcellent]

Eh, I don't think scum!Ausuka would lose anything by mailing you. You're fairly well trusted and townread and can confirm the letter which confirms her mailman claim, which kind of makes her appear more town. The other alternative is you're scum partners together But compared to every other possible team in the game I find this super unlikely.

[Alexcellent]

I also think he's deliberately excusing this behaviour which advances scum wincon using self-meta. He brings up in 1772 that as scum he wouldn't use fence-sitting because it's against his meta. He also brought this up earlier in 574; he's clearly very aware of his 'scum meta' and I think is intentionally breaking it and then telling everyone he should be townread for that.

I think going back to this, this argument bugs me a bit because this logic could apply perfectly to Datisi, who has pointed out his own scum meta and wants to be town read for it.
I don't think it means that Gamma is town, I just think if this is a point against Gamma it's also a point against Datisi, or the argument itself is maybe flawed.

[Alexcellent]

this is a game that i was thinking of during the night btw

viewtopic.php?p=13296575#p13296575

where pooky said he likes putting townies + scum traitor in a hood

i know expecting him to repeat setups can be foolish, but /shrug

Could be something to it.
Do you think the other town roles having the added ability of being able to interact in private (Bella as the friendly neighbour; Ausuka as mailman) might make it more likely that there's a second scum in the hood or not really relevant?

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, just a thought that crossed my mind, idk what goes into balancing a game.

I think I'm still probably sticking with the idea that Freedom is town and Roden was probably killed to weaken the hood or something.

[Alexcellent]

I was going to make a post complaining about how paranoid of everyone I am and how hard this game has become, but that wouldn't serve a purpose outside of whining.

I'm going to vote between Gamma or Marci today, unless someone has a compelling argument for someone else.

I've spent some time looking through potential teams and the vast majority of them ended up in the "highly unlikely" pile.
However I think I can see Gamma/Marci as a team. I can alternatively see Johnny/Marci, but I'm probably not pushing Johnny today due to his claim.
Haven't decided fully on which way I'm going but I'll probs drop a vote in the next day or so.

[Alexcellent]

I've spent some time looking through potential teams and the vast majority of them ended up in the "highly unlikely" pile.

huh honestly I would say a lot of teams are at least possible? Though maybe I haven't looked into it enough

the gamestate is sort of stale but idk what to try and do differently

From where I sit most of the teams involve me having to scum read a town read or involve some pretty heavy busing and nifty scum play.

I do get the feeling like maybe my town reads aren't as great as I think they are

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Freedom

Eh I'm convinced this is a better vote than gamma for now

Join me, easily manipulated townie

VOTE: freedom

pocket go brrr

You guys are killing me.


Shoshin's play was so erratic but not in like a scum flaily way but in a town "idk what's happening and suspect everyone" sorta way.
Granted Freedom's posts are really, really weak and it was kind of funny that I mentioned his lack of scumhunting and he immediately appeared to start asking Marci the same q he's been asking since D2 (which -- fair play I don't think she's ever answered).

This is what I mean about a lot of teams being unlikely, if it's Freedom scum then it means the hood was 2 towns 2 scum.

[Alexcellent]

having looked at freedom, yeah, he's really not offering anything in the way of analysis, like, at all and outside of mech spec and an inherited read from shoshin i dont have good reason to townread him

but at the same time, i feel like this is the 3rd? 4th? time johnny has shown up and done nothing except to promise he'll deliver more content later

so...

VOTE: JF

Thing is part of me is sort of starting to buy lazy town Johnny, but I should probably take a look at some other games of his. I don't know if he were scum if maybe he'd be trying harder or whatever. He's basically active lurking at this point.
I'd say if he still doesn't post something more soon I'll be joining the wagon.

[Alexcellent]

I think the thing as well is that maaaaybe Freedom is just town neighbour who has no one in the hood to talk to and everyone's already town reading him so he's just coasting. Like I've played with people who lose interest and don't care if they're VT or they lose their power for whatever reason. But then I think if he was a townie that cbf he'd be playing more like Johnny is? I do see that agreeableness and like, a lot of the questions he asks are very surface level.

2268 makes me think he's town because idk why scum!Freedom makes an argument against himself, but then that WIFOM is probs the reason he'd post it.

I'm overthinking in this game way more than I normally do and I think it's at my detriment.

[Alexcellent]

i dont particularly feel like voting freedom

i think their gameplay makes sense for them,

but i wont stand in the way of it :shrug:

what makes me pause is basically by logic their claim is v weird when all the other neighbors had additional roles. also the way ppl r acting makes me go hmm but thats a problem for a diff day

Agree that "Town Neighbour" is very plain compared to everything else in the game but maybe that's overthinking, idk

[Alexcellent]

do u live in thread wtf

I have a lot of free time on my hands at the moment pls don't judge

[Alexcellent]

Yeah whatevs VOTE: Freedom I'm going to ignore roles and just go with play

[Alexcellent]

I think that's E-2

[Alexcellent]

Was there any specific reason why you sent your letter to Freedom or were they just your strongest town read at the time?

[Alexcellent]

I’m phone posting here but yeah, I have no clue
I was looking through her ISO before and did find that she seemed to start the game off appearing to scum hunt and ask q’s but then once votes went on her she just went into full flail mode.
The post you quoted is one that gives me doubt about scum!marci and there was some stuff d2 that I can’t quite remember but did at least appear like she was trying to help.
If she’s town she’s being very difficult. But yeah. A lot of her pro town stuff is cancelled out by her anti town stuff.

[Alexcellent]

Ausuka; Scamper
Datisi
Gamma
Johnny; Marci; Freedom

[Alexcellent]

Yeah sorry, I think we're kind of spinning our wheels here.
I'm kind of starting to think Gamma's probs town. Or at least more likely to be town than others. I don't think scum!Gamma comes after you and Datisi, although maybe scum Gamma wants to avoid the low hanging fruit, idk. That's the thing, every time I find a reason to town read someone, I can then think of why they might also be scum for it.

There's just nothing happening. I don't know why Marci is acting the way she is about Gamma, it just seems anti-town. Part of me wants to launch her or JF.

Once I catch up Ima right everyone's name and what I gut read/remember them doing in this game to get my thoughts straight. You should donthe same! I don't trust my POE from yesterday

Like this is 2 days old and still nothing. JF has a pattern of coming in, saying he'll do stuff soon and then disappearing. Is this lazy town or is this blatant active lurking and prod dodging? Like aside from his claim and sharing his results there's been no content here today.

Freedom's at least sharing reads but it still feels like bare minimum.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah, honestly if Freedom had been here all game long and Shoshin wasn't a thing it'd be really hard to TR there at all.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: marci
I have little confidence she’s scum but she’s not really coming off town anymore and if she’s town I want that known in 6p.

I get this, but do you have higher confidence in someone else being scum?

[Alexcellent]

listen i cant explain it but datisi is scum

Can you try though?

[Alexcellent]

I believe Johnny/Marci works

[Alexcellent]

I follow Aussie's logic with Marci, but Alex jumping there as well makes me nervous, I'm still more confident we get a red flip there

Johnny agreeable about Marci but wants me dead instead

i also wouldn't cry if we yeet marci instead

I don't love this as an alternative, either.

Now against Marci launch

i think its mostly hard cuz ppl have this like golden trio of suspects
im in the golden trio
so i know the golden trio isnt it
but i dont know where exactly everyones clowning

if yall want to lim me go ahead, since corwind claimed jailkeep i would be the better lim anyways.
but that doesnt change what im saying
yall are wrong somewhere.

Yeah actually Marci's town here

Alright caught up. More inclined to vote Corwin than Marci here, but would still rather Alex.

I don't think we should end day until we hear back from Scamper and Penguin tho

Hopping in the shower now, ask me questions if you want

Think the first line ^ is pretty bad.

i think johnnys town

Marci has been repeatedly asked about this town read but never explained it.

Johnny/Marci is very possible IMO

[Alexcellent]

There's also this

Probably leaning towards Corwin or Johnny today

im fine with both these options but i prefer corwin slightly

This was whilst she was voting Datisi but it was also before Corwin started openly scumming it up so I guess it's possible scum!Marci just viewed Corwin as a potential mislim at the time and not necessarily the traitor?

I don't know though. Game is hard.

P-edit: ugh... yeah that's a point there

[Alexcellent]

Happy scumday btw!

[Alexcellent]

Yeah I've been trying to put myself into scum shoes. I think personally I'd still just play the game like I normally would and rely on the traitor to not get themselves limmed, then at night maybe look for crumbs. But I think scum are still going to spend the day looking for viable mislims.

[Alexcellent]

@Freedom, who do you want to vote today?

[Alexcellent]

Maybe?

There's a lot of short kinda nothing comments throughout Johnny's catch up. Lots of "don't like this", "I like this" sorta stuff that's all non-committal. There hasn't been a lot of interaction between them that I can recall although did notice Johnny's surprise at Freedom being voted.

[Alexcellent]

Woah wait where are the freedom votes coming from?

Notably not actually taking a stance- not agreeing or disagreeing with the Freedom votes. Just kind of an empty post that makes it look like he's got some kind of opinion here but he doesn't actually express one.

[Alexcellent]

I'm town simple combined doctor voyeur.

I visited Crescent n1, and should I say who I visited n2? Or do we wanna potentially catch them in a lie?

Tbf I had to ask several questions to even fully understand what my results meant each night anyway

Ok ya confirming scamper is vanilla. Was hoping to protect

I hate reading this back in retrospect. Like I sort of wish we pushed for him to give his results upfront because him waiting as long as he did gave him time to see everyone's claims and pick the safest one to fake if he's scum.

[Alexcellent]

Ok I had a look at Johnny's past games, I couldn't notice any obvious difference between his town and scum game. He is definitely capable of lurking as town. I guess I struggle to sort people like that in general.

Yeah agreed. I glanced at a scum mini he had from like 2020. I didn't give it a full read but it's similar low content postings and such. But yeah, I guess this could also be lurk town.

[Alexcellent]

I think it was asked before but can simple doctor voyeur be a scum role? I feel like the voyeur aspect is unlikely to be scum? But I guess with multiple vigs a scum doc could be possible?

[Alexcellent]

You know what I've talked myself into this.

VOTE: Johnny

[Alexcellent]

Parked his vote all D1 on me, has contributed pretty much nothing to town, hasn't done any scumhunting, most of his posts are so non-committal, actively appears to prod dodge. Like yeah, he's got the simple doc voyeur claim but that can be scum PR and his results can be fabricated. I feel like this game stagnating how it has probably benefits him as scum more than anything and he can hide behind the guise of disinterested town.

Like I don't like Freedom's play and Marci's hard to read too but I feeeel like there are more things backing them up as town then there are with Johnny. I feel like I'm making up excuses to say Johnny's town rather than just accepting that the scummiest player is probably just scum.

P-edit: I feel like JK can be a double edged sword for scum given that the traitor had it. Corwin wouldn't have known which scum was killing which town and probably would have inadvertently ruined NKs more than protected his team mates from vigs or roleblocked town or whatever.

[Alexcellent]

There's also the possibility that he's just like, lied about the doctor part too.

[Alexcellent]

Yeah the Shoshin thing is probably what's keeping me from staying on Freedom. But idk, we have 3 days left and not much happening. I think Johnny is the play.

P-edit: lol that would be brutal

[Alexcellent]

Snap. I was literally just looking at Shoshin's ISO.
Also Shoshin voted 5 people, none of which were Johnny.

There's also this in Johnny's ISO

i saw but didn't want to comment on shoshin until i was caught up, but *big sigh* at the replace of shoshin, i was p darn sure she was town and page 19 is just very very unpleasant to read

I vibe w/this

[Alexcellent]

There were defs people pushing against Shoshin and I think she had a vote or two, I feel like StD and someone else was scum reading there but I'd need to go back and read again properly

[Alexcellent]

I have a massive headache and kind of don't want to look at this game but I did anyway
Vibe from reading Johnny's posts is he's prob just saying what he thinks town wants to hear but idk
Agree with Dats - Marci needs to give reasons and explanations for things. She's dodged so many q's. If she thinks Datisi is scum then she needs to provide a genuine reason for believing that, also want to know what the deal with her Gamma vote / read was, also want to know why she was town reading Johnny since D2 and never gave an explanation and dodged every question about it.

what are marci's reads right now anyway?

idk what are they


jk

stay tuned for my next day off for an epic readslist

Where this?????

[Alexcellent]

Yarp. She kind of started making some okay posts D2 again so that's why I sort of bought into the idea that maybe she did just feel trapped with so many people scum reading her. But she's done nothing positive today and has kinda reverted back to how she was on D1.
I'm stuck in this loop of "why would scum act this way? ... but also why would town act this way?"

[Alexcellent]

like what was it u found persuasive enough to change your mind between those last two posts?

Blatant sheeping if I'm honest.

I've been saying pretty much all day that Freedom's play in a vacuum is scummy, the only thing that gives me doubt is him being neighbour and Shoshin's play.
I'm still very mixed there and am still open to voting him. I feel like there's reasonable odds of JF and/or Freedom being scum.
I am changing my mind a lot though and I'm pretty aware of how wishwashy I'm being. This game is hard to decipher between scum and anti-town.

[Alexcellent]

That's the thing, I looked at a scum game of his and it was kind of similar levels of content.
As I was reading his input I was just kinda thinking he's saying what he thinks town wants to hear and the fact he had a scum read on me all game but now doesn't because we have the same reads rubs me the wrong way. I feel like I'm being reasonably town read by people now and so maybe I've become too hard of a push? But then idk, maybe he's on the level.

[Alexcellent]

We got 2 days left, I kind of don't want the day to end without Marci TRYING though. I'm open to a Freedom launch still, but if Marci doesn't come in with some actual analysis and case for why Datisi is scum then I think I'm going to push for her launch instead.

If she can't present a case beyond "trust me guys datisi is totes scum" then I take that as an admission from her that she doesn't actually have one and is thereby mafia.

[Alexcellent]

I'm kind of getting to the stage where I think she's probably the correct choice for elimination anyway.

She could be scum or she could be town. Thing is she's done nothing today that suggests she's town. Like I don't trust Johnny and I don't fully buy what he's selling, but I can buy that he's genuinely probably busy and has other stuff going on and that's why he's so lurky and doesn't add much. On the other hand, Marci still takes the time to come in and troll the game. So it's more like she actively doesn't care to share reads, answer questions or present a case. This is either a player that is openly scum, or she's a player that stopped caring about the game a long time ago and is just here for the lols now. In either case, a wagon there is probably a good idea.

Going to mull it over though, I kind of change my opinion on the game state every couple of hours. But yeah, Marci's a decent elim. Freedom and Johnny also work for me.

p-edit: noice

[Alexcellent]

UNVOTE: Johnny

It's 2:30am here, imma decide where my vote lands tomorrow

[Alexcellent]

alex, how much of a tryharding scum are you when you're scum?

Pretty try-hard. My activity would probably be around the same level but scum!Alex is also pretty decisive and not very wishwashy. He's everything I'm not.

/end wifom

[Alexcellent]

Marci plz help. I'm in a position where it's tough for me to see scum!Datisi, but you might've seen something that I haven't/might be looking at it from a different angle. Pretty much what Gamma said, if you're town and we end up in ELo without you or whatever, it's good to have this information.

[Alexcellent]

My gut is kind of saying this AtE is townie

[Alexcellent]

More just gut but feels more likely to be town that's thrown in the towel rather than scum
But idk, I don't have any real confidence here

[Alexcellent]

I'm still happy to vote between Johnny/Freedom/Marci but idk, I'd be very surprised if scum somehow isn't in there.
Very strongly town on Aus/Datisi/Scamper. Gamma is somewhere in the middle

[Alexcellent]

Fuck it VOTE: Marci going to follow what I said last night in that she probably is the best elim. That's E-1.

P-edit: much more strongly than others in the game

[Alexcellent]

At the same time I'm not sure I could justify voting him when he's been more helpful than most of the game

That's kind of where I'm sitting at the moment. If Marci flips green then I probably have to significantly re-assess there but if she's red then I'm happy to just say he's town, so I think there's value in this wagon in any case.

I've felt like some stuff like him bringing up Freedom's alt's meta or whatever sort of felt town to me. But also like, D2 him hopping his vote around all over the place and then elimming Bella feels like a really blunt and ballsy thing to do as scum, but idk how he plays as scum.

But yeah, I was paranoid of his claim at the start of day and there's some early day stuff that I was sceptical about, but if I compare his overall contribution against half the player list it's really difficult to view him as maf.

[Alexcellent]

Why do you think Datisi is scum?

[Alexcellent]

So I'm gonna vomit thoughts into the game.

I like Marci's post in a lot of ways. I kind of sheep Scamper's view in that I don't fully agree with everything and it doesn't make me scum read Datisi, but it feels authentic and a lot of stuff I do vibe with.
On D2 I was very suspicious of Datisi joining the Bella wagon and it felt weird to me that he was okay with that launch. And I do see the buddying with Ausuka. But maybe that's hypocritical since I've sort of just been sheeping a lot of what Ausuka/Datisi do today. Like maybs they're both just town on the same wave length. I do thing the buddying is really blatant though to the point that maybe it's too blatant?
Overall, going back to what I said earlier, it's hard for me to compare Datisi's contributions against half the player list and single him out as scum. I think he probably is town. But I think what Marci is pointing out has some merit and doesn't necessarily strike me as a bogus case that scum would throw together?

Also yes, my votes have been bouncing around all day, because I'm struggling to read this game and the state it's in. We can't really associate much from the Corwin flip since he was a traitor, and the PR claims are just ridic. Like they can't be proven or disproven. Gut wants to say that there has to be more vanilla than what's been claimed but I'm not sure. It's convenient to me that Datisi claimed to shoot me after I already claimed. It's also convenient that Johnny didn't reveal the result of his results until everyone else had claimed. Like it bugs me because those can be perfectly honest, legit claims/results, but they can just as easily be fabricated and we don't have a way of disproving them.

Johnny still bugs me because he's just done nothing, he scum read me pretty much all game long and seemed like he was just active lurking. Fair enough real world gets busy and such, but the posts he's come back with I feel like can be faked as scum, and him suddenly having this strong town read on me based on agreeing with my reads feels disingenuous. The problem is I've glanced at some other games as his and it's not like he seems to try significantly harder or post with much notable difference that I can tell depending on alignment.

Marci is also super hard to read, because it's felt like she's just sorta trolling for a long time and hasn't helped much. But every now and then she does say something that feels town and like I said I think her Datisi read isn't bad, and her AtE feeeels like it's probably townie more so than scummy. I'm just worried there because if she gets a pass and ends up being scum I'm gonna be real irked.

Gamma's just sort of gone under the radar for me, although I feel like scum maybe doesn't go after Ausuka or Datisi, so I feel more townie on him than most.

I'm still sticking with Ausuka/Datisi/Scamper being town.

If we're not launching Marci I think Johnny is my preference, but I'm okay with Freedom

P-edit: @Gamma, I just feel stronger town on others. I've found some of your posts to be defensive and your reaction to the claims today initially pinged to me as though you believed them and were mad about them rather than being unsure and sceptical, which made me think you could be scum that's annoyed at the setup. I think I proooobably misread your tone in those posts, but ultimately I think you have higher odds of being town than say Johnny/Freedom/Marci, but I'm not as set on you as being town as say Ausuka or Scamper.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: Freedom

E-1

[Alexcellent]

I don't really have a lot to add here. About 12 hours to go until deadline. And it's been almost 12 hours since Scamper asked for a minute soooo I'm okay with anyone hammering at this point.

[Alexcellent]

Lul

I was thinking though if Freedom is scum and flips red, it probs solidifies Dats as town. I don't think Shoshin/Datisi's D1 interaction happens if they're both scum together

[Alexcellent]

Ausuka low key trying to save her scum partner Freedom /s

[Alexcellent]

I too am ready to end the day

[Alexcellent]

Hello

*sigh*

I'm not even sure where to begin right now...

I didn't think datisi was likely to be scum, but I am a little surprised he was the NK

Agree

[Alexcellent]

I think it does help though a bit because I was feeling Datisi is probably town but between the more townier players he was the one I was most paranoid of.

[Alexcellent]

Hello Johnny, who did you target last night?

[Alexcellent]

i re-evaluated and concluded Marcistar is scum with Johnny

Why Johnny? I think Johnny is the one partner that makes no sense for Marci. In fact, I would go so far as to call him almost conftown. I don’t think any scum team with Johnny on it makes that kill except Johnny/scamper exactly.

I don't think this checks out
I think Johnny/Marci is extremely possible

[Alexcellent]

Datisi was killed because of his PR right, surely?

Either there's scum PR out there that's scared of getting killed by Datisi or there's a VT claim that lied and didn't want Datisi catching them out.

[Alexcellent]

Hey, I protected scamper. He was the one among those I

could

protect who seemed like a likely target

Yeah that's fair. I assume no result on the voyeur thing?

[Alexcellent]

Oh lol, i forgot he's 1-shot. I'm a simpleton.

[Alexcellent]

Normally don't like no elim but I agree it's probably a good call here

[Alexcellent]

i dont get why anyone could think im scum here

Okay why not?

[Alexcellent]

1. Datisi - Town One-Shot Novice Complex Vigilante
2. Bellaphant - Town Novice Complex Nonconsecutive Friendly Neighbour

3. Ausuka - Town Ascetic Miller Mailman

4. Crescent - Vanilla Townie

5. Alexcellent - Vanilla Townie
6. JohnnyFarrer - Town Simple Combined Doctor Voyeur

7. Corwinoid - Mafia Bulletproof Traitor Jailkeeper Neighbour

8. Save the Dragons - Town Simple Vigilante Neighbour

9. Scamper - Vanilla Townie

10. Roden - Town Simple Traffic Analyzer Neighbour
11. Freedom - Town Neighbour

12. Marcistar - Vanilla Townie
13. Gamma Emerald - Vanilla Townie

I'm kind of starting to lean towards Johnny's claim maybe being legit. On play alone I don't trust him but I think the flips and kills probably point to him being more likely on the level?

I can see remaining mafia probably just being goons. Look at Corwin, look at that shit. BULLETPROOF JAILKEEPER NEIGHBOUR. Like his role is weakened by being a traitor but the rest of those roles are so strong for mafia to have. If rest of mafia is goons, it pretty well suggests that remaining scum are in the VT claims. It also checks out why Datisi is killed - it's someone Johnny can't protect/voyeur. It doesn't reeeeally explain why Ausuka wasn't killed because tbh I was fully expecting her to not be here today. But Datisi was pretty keen on Marci being scum. Like Occam's Razor I guess says it's Marci/Gamma but that does seem very easy.

Datisi could only kill scum PR -- but he couldn't kill Corwin if he were still around because of the bulletproof, which may have given Datisi a false clear on him. Datisi could really only use his role to give very soft clears on people being vanilla or not. That seems very weak and more weighted towards helping scum than town.
StD could kill mafia goons or VTs, and kind of confirm somewhat if someone's a PR. I guess in theory slightly more useful to town than Datisi's role but still not great.
Ascetic Miller is useless, the mailman can maybe help? But Ausuka couldn't really have turned up a result for Roden if he had investigated her.
Bella's role limited her to visiting Datisi, Johnny (if he's telling the truth), Corwin, StD, Roden and I think Freedom? If there is another scum PR, then them too. But idk.
Roden could only use traffic analyst role to track goons. Like if he used it on Ausuka it'd have been useless right? Because of her being ascetic miller - am I understanding that correctly? And there would been no purpose to him using it on Corwin given that he knew Corwin was a neighbour. I think that again points to the remaining scum being goons rather than PRs otherwise we just have a bunch of mostly useless power roles - which I guess again makes it more likely that Johnny's claim is genuine.

I think from my point of view the scum team is in Marci/Gamma/Scamper -- and it's very hard for me to see scum!Scamper based on how Corwin acted towards him.

[Alexcellent]

I actually don't know if my logic is sound, I probably need smarter people to weigh in.
I instinctively don't want to trust Johnny and I'll be just very, very irked if scum!Johnny wins this, but I think the setup suggests that he's legit.

[Alexcellent]

I was going to ask what you think of that about Marci post.

I do think of Johnny is actually the doc then that very likely makes Marci scum IMO.

[Alexcellent]

Also I mean, town are now confirmed to have 2 vigs, also against (presumably) 3 scum. The idea that we wouldn't have at least one protective role of some kind against that many potential kills seems unlikely.

I hate this but I think I've talked myself into believing in town!Johnny

[Alexcellent]

I mean I guess the mafia JK can work in town favour accidentally as well, so I don't know. I need to stop pretending I know anything about game balance.

But I am thinking Johnny is probably for real, and I don't think I see myself voting for anything that isn't a no elim or a marci elim.

[Alexcellent]

Johnny pls. I'm trying so hard to TR you, and I thiiiink I probably have been wrong about you but that is a bad take

Do you actually think scum wouldn't bus each other on D3?

P-edit: ^

[Alexcellent]

I don't know their metas personally but if they're scum together, they were D3 into a game where they're more or less probably cornered into claiming vanilla (and they probably are just goons?), one of them is being heavily scumread by a lot of the playerlist and they don't have their traitor bulletproof jailkeeper neighbour to fall back on if things go bad. They're probably going to feel like they need to bus but they're not going to actually want it to happen if that makes sense.

[Alexcellent]

I don't think Johnny makes these posts as scum. I think if he's scum with Marci or Gamma, it's easier for him to just be agreeable to a no lim today, then tomorrow he can either bus his pal or try and wagon me. I don't think scum!Johnny calls me scum today.

[Alexcellent]

VOTE: No Elimination

[Alexcellent]

I actually don't know if my logic is sound, I probably need smarter people to weigh in.
I instinctively don't want to trust Johnny and I'll be just very, very irked if scum!Johnny wins this, but I think the setup suggests that he's legit.

I am both dumb and irked.

[Alexcellent]

GG though, well played scum
I think if I made it to ELo I would have 100% voted for Marci anyway
It was SO hard to buy you as scum, Scamper, after the way Corwin blew up at you on D1, that was crazy convincing

[Alexcellent]

Thanks for modding Pooky!

I don't want to pile on too hard although I do sort of agree with Ausuka and Gamma. I know these roles are "normal" but this many combinations of them and this many layers to the game feels significantly more complicated than I guess what I would expect when signing up for a "normal" game. But I'm also more of a casual player these days so it might just be sour grapes on my part.
I DO appreciate the effort and how tough it would have been to put this game together though and I did have fun even though I played pretty horridly

Thanks all!

[Alexcellent]

Thanks for all that Mastina!
I do agree a lot of this game comes down to the day play ultimately. And Roden's right about it being swingy. I think any game with a vig, let alone two, has potential to be super swingy but obviously not townsided or scumsided from the get-go.
Again, as a boring person I think I queue for a normal game expecting something a bit more basic but that might be on me. But I don't want to dunk on it much because obviously a lot of planning and thought went into balancing and modding this, and I definitely know people who would love this sort of setup so it's more of a not my cup of tea thing personally.