Mini Normal 2275: Roguelikes - Day 3: Endgame!

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: CW

[Confidently Wrong]

Eira i hope u know that if town loses your bad case on me is the primary reason thanks

[Confidently Wrong]

Lowell definitely continued to push loft’s elimination *even though* momentum was shifting away from loft/the wagon was stalling. Like at one point on D1 scum!Lowell had to think “I’m bussing no matter what! I WILL kill my teammate even if an easy alternative exists!!”

You were completely right here before switching onto the vote for Lowell. Lowell not only wanted to vote for Loftwing but actively encouraged us to finalise the hammer at one point. That moves from bussing to active self-sabotage for me given the clear, eventual scum plan was for Lowell to claim a role. Lowell's play as scum only makes sense if there'd been a fairly weak vote which either remained there without much comment, or a vote that was quickly removed.

Level 0 analysis

[Confidently Wrong]

Malcom read my.iso challenge and respond to literally anything [failed]

[Confidently Wrong]

I'm going to do an exercise and try to go through lowell's ISO and find reasons to townread them and make a list. I ask people who are townreading the slot to do a similar exercise and look for reasons to scumread them. Its an exercise called "trustfalls" and "distrustfallls" I've learned from my home site of epicmafia that has helped reeval. I'm also rechecking malcom because we haven't heard from them in a while and their posts this phase were .. unimpressive.

I am like 90% sure that I did this earlier and found them spewed town but I'm going to dig deeper and see if it was definitely the case because I am seeing some town things peeking thru on Lowell but I want to be .. sure.

Dunns kinda not doing work I'm asking them to properly is not helping because I wanted them to narrow down the PoE as much as possible and show what they thought about people, like explain what they saw that spews X person townie, etc. rather than just whatever it is they did. I'm still confident on BBT town though I think theyre kinda obvtown in a way that is hard to explain this day phase and I lowkey think theyre one of the townier slots despite their anti town plays in the game.

I've had a busy few days and been a bit disengaged so apologies for that, I appreciate I've not contributed as much as I'd have hoped to on this turn.

I'm not sure how you'd be able to read my ISOs/interactions and come back with anything other than solid town. I was the first player Shoshin pushed. I then pushed back at Shoshin and hinted they might be scum because it was a lazy and incoherent push. I then later pushed Loftwing. We know Gamma/Shoshin bussed on Loftwing's slot when it came to the vote. A scumteam of Loftwing/Gamma+Shoshin/myself would basically rely on all three scumteam members regularly pushing each other.

I literally fucking made the conclusion earlier buddy.
Try not to.omgus and instead realize.im.fucking uninformed and also am human. I dont remember everything

[Confidently Wrong]

Like damn very few people are thinking "what does koba do as town here" only thinking "koba would do this as scum so confirmed scum"

Mainly speaking at eira and malcon

Im fucking allowed to tinfoil shit when people are being wrong on me and double check my work. If you're town you have literally NOTHING to fear.

[Confidently Wrong]

Sorry been busy, will catch up on recent posts.

lovely hope to hear from u soon

I think your case on CW a few pages back is pretty solid to be honest, it's given me more confidence in where I was before after some doubts.

I don't think Lowell's responses have been pretty great - I'd have liked to have seen a more proactive effort from them to towncase themselves, but I also feel like scum Lowell would perhaps be more pushed to make said towncase if they were scum given I'd likely be on their side.

I also appreciate the risk of getting too actively involved in an argument with CW where it ends up just taking up pages and pages without the game progressing and nothing happening expect lots of doubt being sowed.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

Youre afraid of being proven wrong because you care about your ego more than being right on me
You dont give. A shit if im town or scum.

[Confidently Wrong]

I'm unsure I like SCP floating Bnuuy on the basis it has to be an alternative to Nashville when we still seem to have plenty of time and could explore various different options.

Here's a recent example of malcom being blatantly.wrong on me while im pushing actual.scum in a diffrent game btw

He refuses to learn how to read me bc basing a read on feelings.is easier than reconsidering logic lmao

[Confidently Wrong]

I pushed your mislim.im that game malcom and i used it to improve. If im scum i just push you as scum this game because its easy to copy recency. Solve from your own slots pov.

God how the fuck am i supposed to argue against incorrect logic this is impossible. And my top scumread getting cleared for what can easily be a bus when both scum kills were actually
Wagon context too fucking hard amirite.

Not a fucking fan of BBT just sheeping the most consensus wagon available though.

I get fucking extra scrutiny because im loud but lowell just changes a read with 0 progression for no reason and people sleep.

WHY DOES LOWELL INSTANT PUSH KENNY AFTER CALLING THEM TOWN THE DAY BEFORE. Nothing changed at all.

[Confidently Wrong]

And if i am eliminated i strongly insist on sticking a PoE that is [lowell, bbt, dunn] and thats it.
And make sure all of them are pushing contributions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Sorry been busy, will catch up on recent posts.

lovely hope to hear from u soon

I think your case on CW a few pages back is pretty solid to be honest, it's given me more confidence in where I was before after some doubts.

I don't think Lowell's responses have been pretty great - I'd have liked to have seen a more proactive effort from them to towncase themselves, but I also feel like scum Lowell would perhaps be more pushed to make said towncase if they were scum given I'd likely be on their side.

I also appreciate the risk of getting too actively involved in an argument with CW where it ends up just taking up pages and pages without the game progressing and nothing happening expect lots of doubt being sowed.

VOTE: Confidently Wrong

Youre afraid of being proven wrong because you care about your ego more than being right on me
You dont give. A shit if im town or scum.

Again these are baseless appeals to emotion aimed at making me doubt my reads without actually outlining why you are not scum. Literally any player could reply to my posts with this if I was suspecting them - someone has to be scum and by process of elimination I think the third one is likely to be you given how play has gone so far.

Again the frantic nature of these posts isn't convincing me either. I don't want to get complacent but the game is currently heavily balanced in favour of the town. The town stands a strong chance of winning now. If I am wrong on you, I would be willing to reconsider Lowell - as it stands I think it's just genuinely a bit stupid to eliminate someone who was delightfully pleading for us to hammer scum on D1 on the off-chance it's some sort of 4D chess. Who knows, I might be wrong - I don't think I am and I'd rather eliminate the player I believe is most likely to be scum first before then revisiting someone else.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm unsure I like SCP floating Bnuuy on the basis it has to be an alternative to Nashville when we still seem to have plenty of time and could explore various different options.

Here's a recent example of malcom being blatantly.wrong on me while im pushing actual.scum in a diffrent game btw

He refuses to learn how to read me bc basing a read on feelings.is easier than reconsidering logic lmao

What feelings? I don't claim to be a great player but I'm typically try to follow a more logical approach instead of an emotional one - I'm generally not the most confrontational player and certainly aim not to have any lasting beef with someone going from one game to another. Again, under this logic you are suggesting there is simply no way I can feasibly scumread you, because any scumread is inherently going to be portrayed as wrong by you since it is the job of scum to convince others they are town.

[Confidently Wrong]

Nah u dont wanna be convinced. Take the L and learn

[Confidently Wrong]

You're not convincing me of your logical approach very well. You got scared over me being thorough when if you used logic instead of accusing me of not clearing you off your iso you'd see i already did that

[MalcolmTucker]

I pushed your mislim.im that game malcom and i used it to improve.

If im scum i just push you as scum this game because its easy to copy recency.

Solve from your own slots pov.

God how the fuck am i supposed to argue against incorrect logic this is impossible. And my top scumread getting cleared for what can easily be a bus when both scum kills were actually
Wagon context too fucking hard amirite.

Not a fucking fan of BBT just sheeping the most consensus wagon available though.

I get fucking extra scrutiny because im loud but lowell just changes a read with 0 progression for no reason and people sleep.

WHY DOES LOWELL INSTANT PUSH KENNY AFTER CALLING THEM TOWN THE DAY BEFORE. Nothing changed at all.

Not really though. I've been pretty obvious town since D1 when I consistently pushed Loftwing because I genuinely believed they were scum and by the time we became aware Gamma was scum I looked even more townie because Shoshin and I pushed each other D1. Again - constant attemps to defer to meta here because you evidently feel it's your most viable way to make players doubt a scumread on you.

[Confidently Wrong]

Love being considered simultaneously the worst and the best scum player at the same time. As well as informed of my team but also playing as if i was uninformed. All scum play like this it is so true. /s.

Tell me - what would i do here as town in your view? And dont give me bs that i will just do it if you say it bc I don't play how others want me to .

[Confidently Wrong]

Sorry malcom but ive played this game long enough to know that bussing exists and just pushing scum doesnt clear someone. Similarly just not pushing scum doesnt make someome scum. Unless you think BBT and I are both scum here.

[MalcolmTucker]

VOTE: Loftwing

Subject to change but time to cast a vote somewhere. Not confident their opportunistic jumping around from wagon to wagon is townie. The vote on Mala felt particularly opportunistic as I said earlier on.

I think fundamentally the reasons you are presenting for reading people is flawed and not consistent(results wise) in any way.

So I envision it shall be difficult to convince you similarly to the last time we played together.


Jumping around wagon to wagon is not a scum behavior.

Again here's a perfect example of a post where you're trying to argue I'm using flawed logic to find scum when said player genuinely ended up coming back as scum. In the end I'd argue my logic was pretty sound - I'm generally very hit or miss at identifying scum but this was an alright effort for D1. Instead of convincing me why Loftwing was not scum, you insist their play was not "scum behaviour", something which I'd argue is inherently flawed in itself - you know all players are different in how they play as scum and good players can indeed switch up their game to appear more townie.

[Confidently Wrong]

Malcom - real shit - why does going for the best option to doubt a scumread on me make me scum? Thats not logical at all. That's just personal feelings. Of course as town I will pushbto convince someone the best way I can. I know I'm town i can explain it however i want.

Just because YOU roll over and die when you get pushed like you did in the multiball game doesnt mean all townies do.

[Confidently Wrong]

Ok. If you dont wanna find me town whatever. My fucking concern is people like you misclearing lowell and are gonna push like irrelephant in 3 way over him and lose us the game. You make me this promise - after i flip(and it will be town) you shove your "lowell pushed scum to flip" and listen to the arguments ive presented rather than stubbornly cling to what clearly led you the wrong way aside and put lowell in that PoE like i am asking.

[Confidently Wrong]

You need to promise you are going to actually consider my argument on him instead of disrespecting my work to find context and clear other players by reading the game.
THIS is 50% of why im so hardcore pushing this. Because ive seen this shit before. Dude gets cleared for good bus and then wins in endgame. Hell, ive been that player.

[MalcolmTucker]

I have Eira basically locked in as mafia and there is nothing that can happen that will cause me to stray from this course. The evidence is there. It is reasonable and it should prove that Eira is mafia. I'm going to be passive about the Mala and Lowell wagons as I like info but I'm actively against the current loftwing wagon.

I'd argue that posts like this generally reflect a pretty major change in your play once the Loftwing wagon came about.

Early on you were very memey and jokey and had a more playful posting style. Obviously that's common for most of us early game but you pretty much alluded to playing with a fun gimmick.

Once scum was under pressure that went away. It'd make sense if you realised a teammate was in trouble and you started to try to exert greater force over the town so other players would come under pressure. And it sort of worked - Loftwing claimed, you jumped onto the Fred wagon (like, three posts after correctly identifying them as a RP) and Fred got eliminated.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

CW, I'm sorry but your Lowell scum read literally makes 0 sense.

[Confidently Wrong]

Literally why the fuck do i hard defend shoshin after seeing them flake my game in a recent game and thus would assume they hate beint scum AND also seeing CSF fumble setting up thus not wanting to trust teammates to carry by bussing me. I would bus shoshin here. Its fucking logical..

But nah its not YOUR logic. It makes too much sense and it would mean changing your read. Changing your read badddddd. Cant do that lmao. Would be terrible to be wrong on me now that ive said mean words.

[MalcolmTucker]

Ok. If you dont wanna find me town whatever. My fucking concern is people like you misclearing lowell and

are gonna push like irrelephant in 3 way over him

and lose us the game. You make me this promise - after i flip(and it will be town) you shove your "lowell pushed scum to flip" and listen to the arguments ive presented rather than stubbornly cling to what clearly led you the wrong way aside and put lowell in that PoE like i am asking.

I've said like multiple times Irrelephant is absolute confirmed town. Fancypants was too so that slot is in the clear.

I think BBT is town based on play but if you fail as an elimination I'd be interested in going back there. I fundamentally think Lowell is town here but would want them put under heavy pressure and potentially eliminated if you are town if their responses to pressure don't stack up.