LOST (Game Over)

[Cytosine and Guanine]

Investigatives SHOULD get results even when they die by NAR as the mere act of dying is not a roleblock and does not interfere with the investigation in any way.
~Cytosine

[Dancing Puppets]

I wonder if it's legal to ask Penguin questions about Cephrir that Penguin would only know if Penguin could talk to Cephrir

Why wouldn’t it be? It was in Heroes Wanted.

[Cytosine and Guanine]

Oh - I can talk to dead people, but only Ceph since the other two weren't dead during N1.

Ceph isn't happy with a lot of you so ymmv in terms of getting something answered

Best Bird is town.
~Cytosine

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I wonder if it's legal to ask Penguin questions about Cephrir that Penguin would only know if Penguin could talk to Cephrir

Why wouldn’t it be? It was in Heroes Wanted.

i dunno there's weird new rules now

[MalcolmTucker]

has malcolm responded since the wagon on them started yet or no

Been busy to the point where I'd not been aware of there being a wagon on me. What's up?

[MalcolmTucker]

I reckon Luke and Rad is probably TvT. I don't agree with Rad on the read but they are making a genuine effort to solve early on even if their conclusions aren't necessarily correct. Attempts to drive the game forward earn townpoints from me and Luke doesn't strike me as the type of player to go after if you're scum wanting to appear busy.

I'm not convinced Frogster is town though, potential scum slot.

another post from malcolm early on that I don't like
this is in response to rad's case on luke 340 which is a reasonable case early on.
he didn't have any luke reads before this yet he called them TvT just because luke is pushing the game forward and he even called rad's conclusions 'not necessarily correct'.
I assume luke was a high poster during this time which makes for an easy town read to get away with.

Part of my TR of Luke came from us being in a hood together and whether it's for right or wrong their tone in said hood has felt townie to me, and nothing in their play since has indicated scum to me.

Surely the fact I TR'd Rad early on should indicate I'm not just hyperfocusing on one player? I thought they were pretty solid early game but my read has since evolved a bit, as is evidenced by SR'ing them. Trying to catch up though so could of course evolve again.

[MalcolmTucker]

what does this mean
is it a scummy post?

100%. Reeks of TMI. Like, you're confident enough to say that Math will flip town but not confident enough to do anything about it?

You bet Mathblade is town = confident
But your read is flimsy so you won't defend = not confident?

Your sentences literally contradict each other

BBT, I get the scum angle here, but how is it any more convincing than the town angle of "that's just literally how he's thinking about it"? He just joined the game yesterday. If he's town, doesn't it make sense that he'd be looking at the Math wagon and trying to figure out how legit it is, and after some time reading he might have that basic level of certainty/uncertainty? I mean shit, I've read the entire game and that's about the level of certainty I have on the Math wagon as well - not certain at all and something feels off.

Are you basing your vote on anything else besides this statement from him + Klick explaining town reads easier than scum reads?

Catching up - I'm split on this but it's not a terrible take from BBT. The "Math is probably town" very much feels like it could be scum hedging their bets and wanting to look like a correct townie if Math goes out. Mislim seems a bit bold for scum and I TR'd Klick, but it's also possible I guess for confident scum to come into the game a good way through and manage to miss some key points or be a bit too bold, as Mislim seems to be doing.

[Lukewarm]

Investigatives SHOULD get results even when they die by NAR as the mere act of dying is not a roleblock and does not interfere with the investigation in any way.
~Cytosine

Copy
Hide
Bus Drive
Block
Redirect
Protect
Miscellaneous

Kill

Recruit

Inspect

But not a hill I'm gonna die on

[Best Bird]

That order only applies to conflicting actions where the golden rule breaks down.

Now, that said, this isn’t a normal game and isn’t required to use NAR.

[MalcolmTucker]

At least one of Luke/Pooky/OTH are scum. Scum are driving the game too well for all of those to be town IMO

I confused by the make up of this trio? How did you land on these three?

These are the 3 that worry me most and I feel are pretty much universally town read and therefore unsuspected.

I think I could be holding onto an early scum read of OTH too hard though. I probably need to reevaluate that read at some point.

Pooky posts a lot but I literally can't think of anything that they have said this game.

You say all the right things and pick up on things that makes you town read people. But I don't see you aggressively pushing scum reads and this is the part that worries me.

If I'm completely honest, I'm also shocked that Dunn was killed over you/Pooky or someone else like that.

These reads can go on the back burner until Tomorrow or even D4 though. If you're all still alive, then questions will need to be asked.

This is an alright post from BBT - think they're harsh on Luke who I believe has pushed other players but they're fundamentally correct that some players are being given an easy ride, perhaps due to game size. Really not seeing the scum arguments for BBT at all, solid contributions.

[MalcolmTucker]

thats too many words for an old bear like me to read eager puppy

gonna need a tldr

this post is absolutely horrible and I hate the idea of having to explain why

you may hate the idea, but what about the action of explaining why...for those of us with bird brains.

If you've played mafia for awhile now I'm sure you've encountered one of those wordy posts that scum makes to look busy but the contents are pretty weak.

here malcolm did a play by play by commentary on rad's action while adding a bit of his own scum narrative as if every rad's actions are scum motivated.
they made it as if it's a big solid case but the content are weak and could be summed up in a few sentences

I'm bad at being concise, it's a habit of mine irrespective of alignment to be honest. I think your argument is weak. I outlined clearly why I believed Rad was potential scum on the basis of their posting. The point of the game, when you scumread someone, is to explain why. I tend to over-explain in an attempt to get my point across when I'm making it. Ironically feel like you're clutching at straws with your scumread here in the exact same way you're accusing me of doing.

[Cytosine and Guanine]

At least one of Luke/Pooky/OTH are scum. Scum are driving the game too well for all of those to be town IMO

I confused by the make up of this trio? How did you land on these three?

These are the 3 that worry me most and I feel are pretty much universally town read and therefore unsuspected.

I think I could be holding onto an early scum read of OTH too hard though. I probably need to reevaluate that read at some point.

Pooky posts a lot but I literally can't think of anything that they have said this game.

You say all the right things and pick up on things that makes you town read people. But I don't see you aggressively pushing scum reads and this is the part that worries me.

If I'm completely honest, I'm also shocked that Dunn was killed over you/Pooky or someone else like that.

These reads can go on the back burner until Tomorrow or even D4 though. If you're all still alive, then questions will need to be asked.

whats the point of targetting dunn

if you target frog at least you will get a result or something

I'd target Dunn over Frog. I haven't really played with Frog much, but I feel that Dunnstral would have the more insightful takes. A role cop result /could be/ useful, but there's no real guarantee.

That's what I was trying to say earlier. I don't think all the neighbors are just town, no, otherwise what's the point of masons.

No one is insisting every neighbor is town.

Spoiler:

All the talk about Corwin made me want to go re-read his ISO, so I did.

I didn't see any mention of a neighborhood with C&G. There are some things that stood out though.

In post 1442 he town reads C&G, and the list appears to be either ordered Most Town to Least Town or at the very least, the town part is sectioned into Town and Lean Town. We know he reads me as town from his 1469 so it makes sense that he's just reading C&G as a stronger TR there with a TL on Johnny and T-Bone.

In all of C&G's read updates, they're reading Corwin as town.

C&G's opening vote is on Corwin which feels breadcrumby.

There's no other interaction between the 2 of them.

Some take aways:

1. I think Math's "corwin was doing work for both" or whatever he said is absolute nonsense but not necessarily scummy nonsense. I see no proof of it, but town!Math certainly could believe that and we don't have access to the neighborhood if it does exist, so it's possible that's not nonsense.

2. If anyone has a reason to read C&G town at that stage of the game, it's someone in a neighborhood with them where they can speak freely. Shouldn't SvS there just make the

impossible to read due to limitation

C&G null? In some weird scenario where Math comes in and claims a fake neighborhood, that's SvS but it's a set up that makes sense as far back as C&G's very first post/vote and following through with the matching town reads. Like it tracks with Corwin's behavior and they never mentioned it until Math comes in.

3. The immediate flavor claim of Jin does support the idea of the restriction as well as the neighborhood with Corwin/Math (Sun). Luke brought this up earlier and it made a lot of sense before I started thinking the restriction was a lie.

4. I suppose all the nonsense COULD have happened and C&G really isn't lying. I feel blinded by it currently.

@C&G can you tell us about your conversations with Corwin before he left? Also, what gave you such a strong town read on him?

Unvoting until I can make more sense of all this.

UNVOTE:

I'm responding to the bolded, and I don't know if Guanine addressed this already. Anyway, the conversation with Corwin in the neighborhood was pretty short. Here is more or less a post by post summary:

0: Dragon says we're neighbors (standard private thread stuff).
1: Guanine reveals our post restriction.
2: Guanine clarifies it does not apply in the neighborhood.
3: Corwin asks if they can help us by posting on our behalf.
4: I respond that I think it is a valid workaround but wonder if it is a good idea to out the neighborhood so early. I also express some thoughts on Enchant and Pooky (which I don't think ever made it into this thread).
5: Guanine clarifies his read on Lukewarm.
6: Guanine expresses frustration with T-Bone.
7: Guanine expresses why he thinks T-Bone is scum.
8: Guanine acknowledges that his judgement is clouded by his emotions.
9: Guanine expresses a town read on T-Bone.
10: Guanine is amazed by Lukewarm correctly speculating about flavor in 522.
11: I post some notes I had from pages 5-10. (I don't these were relayed to the main thread.)
12: I ask why Corwinoid is so quiet in the neighborhood.
13: Corwinoid explains about IRL issues.
14: Guanine talks about his suspicion of Bell.
15: Guanine talks more about Bell and also a little about Luke.
16: Guanine fixes an error in post 15.
17: Corwinoid agrees implicitly with Guanine's Bell read and gives some thoughts of their own.
18: Corwinoid asks why we wasted words on a specific post.
19: Guanine clarifies he was checking his understanding.
20: I post more notes I had. The referenced post numbers range from 1136 to 1208. (Again, I don't think this made it into this thread.)
21: Guanine comments T-Bone is quite happy.
22: Guanine references and comments on Frog's fake vig post.
23: Corwinoid agrees with Guanine and talks about how upset they were shot at that point.
24: Guanine likes a post from Dunnstral about Bell.
25: Guanine fixes an error in 25.
26: Guanine says he likes Bell personally but not the way Bell is acting this game.
27: This is MathBlade's first post.

As for early town read, I can't speak for Guanine, but for me personally, it mostly comes down to post 3. Being willing to help us so early without really having any knowledge of our alignment is a massive leap of faith, and while it's not impossible, I don't think it's the leap of faith scum would make. I think the other facet of the read is an implicit neighbor bias that is stronger in the early game when you don't have many reads elsewhere.

I'm not sure any of that changes my take on anything though. Their content today has been bad - after a day post restricted I'd be wanting to get as many of my thoughts out as possible. My read on them isn't as tied up with my read on math as maybe it should be.

This is more or less a time issue for me. I don't have as many thoughts as I'd like because 1) I've missed a lot of context (I've only read maybe 5% of the posts in the game) and 2) once you're unengaged, it's hard to get back to that point. As for Guanine, I think he said he's pretty busy at this time phase too, so that's probably why he hasn't posted as much.

Actually, masons for the Math and C&G slots makes a lot of sense given both the flavor and their TRs on each other.

Is a setup with 2 mason groups ridiculous and unheard of? My main concern with this idea is:

Yeah I'm not going to bother trying to keep up at this point, 70 pages is too much.

I can vaguely tell there's a wagon on me. I'm claiming Mason.

UNVOTE: Roden
(move Town)
-Guanine

A C&G mason would have to believe that 2 mason groups in this set up is totally legit and there's no reason to question the other mason claim at all.

I think considering the Math and C&G slots are viable wagons right now, they should just claim if they're masons?

Sadly, we are just regular neighbors.

1 more thing CaG

I would appreciate a response to my 8693 post please

Sure.
I'm pretty sure that we never told Math that he couldn't share.
Though, it's most likely that he misinterpreted something.
-Guanine

Math said this multiple times. Like a lot.

Why did you not try to correct it. Like, could have been 1-2 words, but if you saw your only interpreter repeatedly saying you said something you didn't say, why was that not a priority for your word use?

1) Most likely, we just... didn't see it? Maybe Guanine did, but I most certainly didn't.
2) It's not really that important in the grand scheme of things.

With that said, there was maybe one thing I asked not be shared on the 15th simply because I felt it would detract from the current thread momentum too much.

@luke, I disagree that Rad is town.

I dunno why C&g is playing how they are this game, but I doubt they haven’t seen my shade directed their way.
They’re intentionally ignoring me. Which I can’t do anything with.

If it's too subtle or you don't spell out one of our names, I'll miss it. I can only read like 3-10 pages a day.

At least one of Luke/Pooky/OTH are scum. Scum are driving the game too well for all of those to be town IMO

I confused by the make up of this trio? How did you land on these three?

These are the 3 that worry me most and I feel are pretty much universally town read and therefore unsuspected.

I think I could be holding onto an early scum read of OTH too hard though. I probably need to reevaluate that read at some point.

Pooky posts a lot but I literally can't think of anything that they have said this game.

You say all the right things and pick up on things that makes you town read people. But I don't see you aggressively pushing scum reads and this is the part that worries me.

If I'm completely honest, I'm also shocked that Dunn was killed over you/Pooky or someone else like that.

These reads can go on the back burner until Tomorrow or even D4 though. If you're all still alive, then questions will need to be asked.

I will double check, but I think Luke has had good takes throughout the game as far as I can recall.
Pooky is town by claim.
Off The Hook I'd have to think about honestly. I've seen things both ways for them.
~Cytosine

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think it's a bad take at all.

The way Malcolm describes my play is heavily descriptive on the scum!Rad side. I'm the sneaky snake scum and every single thing I do can be explained by some sneaky snake scum motivation. Read through Malcolm's content about me and tell me it doesn't read like a fucking mystery novel describing events in detail that assumes my scummy emotions at every turn.

I haven't concluded why he's approaching his cases about me like this, but I think it's probably 1 of 2 options.

1. town!Malcolm is conf biased as fuck and can only view my actions through the Rad Is Scum FOR SURE lense.

2. scum!Malcolm is bloating his cases on me with all the nonsense that Mislim Bait has spotted.

My scumread on you has weakened on the basis of your recent posting, feel like it's a lot more townie and to be honest it's possible I was tunnelled when a few of your posts pinged me as potential mafia.

But I don't think there was anything wrong with the read in itself. The point of this game is to theorise players and either come up with reasons for them being town or mafia. When I don't have decisive reads I'm often accused of being hedgy. When I do come up with a decisive read (typically once the game is more developed) I'm accused of being too tunnelled or too hyper-focused on one player. It's just an easy way to bat off accusations.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd still be up for a Johnny wagon. Nothing to convince me they aren't scummy.

[Best Bird]

Oh - I can talk to dead people, but only Ceph since the other two weren't dead during N1.

Ceph isn't happy with a lot of you so ymmv in terms of getting something answered

Ah.

I am interested in hearing his reads, post dunn and frog flip.

I had more specific questions for the two that you say you cannot talk to tho lol

Ceph think Math-slot is probably scum.

[Dancing Puppets]

So apparently DNA is right and dying did not prevent any actions from receiving results. Killing happens at the end of the night.

[T-Bone]

Tell Ceph I miss him.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Hell yeah get froggo on the phone

[Best Bird]

So apparently DNA is right and dying did not prevent any actions from receiving results. Killing happens at the end of the night.

Oh hey look. We are using NAR.

[Off The Hook]

I see there’s a hood blow-by-blow and BB claimed Sixth Sense, wtf is going on rn?

~GE

[Best Bird]

I mean - that. That’s what’s going on rn.

[Lukewarm]

I still lean towards calling up dunn

[Best Bird]

Why?

[Cytosine and Guanine]

I feel Dunnstral would give more insightful comments if they lack a specific role result.
~Cytosine

[Cytosine and Guanine]

*even if
~Cytosine