Large Normal 240: Baileyposting [game over]

[Enchant]

Wdm i wanted Prince dead, it's Malcolm guilt i even voted him.

[Vivax]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

[Crescent]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant? Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

I would be willing to have a go at someone we may believe to be scum with town consensus. Then you'd know in advance who I was going to hit.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant?

Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

I have voted Enchant now.

Your unwillingness to even entertain the claim is unhelpful - you are too deep-rooted here in assuming I am playing a logical and calculated game when I admit I have been a bit all over the place and uncertain with reads that game, something I apologise for since it's not been helpful for town. I defended Prince a while back because I didn't think they were particularly scummy. I vote sparingly and quite frankly can't remember why I didn't vote Enchant at the time - I could have been busy the next day and may have not wanted to place down a vote before being certain in case it was hammered. I may just simply not have bothered at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

I suppose it's possible scum could be in there but could also be vanity wagons - Lowell hasn't been too active recently so may just still be sitting on Prince. I suspect not all scum will be on me because when I come back town they won't want to look like they pushed it too hard. If I get yeeted out, watch out for any players defending me quite strongly for town-cred. Likewise, I'd keep an eye on players who have largely TR'd me but who are willing to eliminate me on the basis of being helpful to town consensus.

[Crescent]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

Lowell hasn't been around in ages, and Mala's only comment was to sheep Fire in defending MT when he was still -2. Enchant them got off.. So basically, scum was likely never in position to hammer.

The funny thing about Prince's wagon now is I said there's scum there, specifically pointed to where I think scum might be, and now the only two players left on him are players from that shortlist.

I believe at least two of MT, Enchant, and Mala are scum though. There has barely been anything resembling scumhunting from any of the three, but they sure do defend each other. I think if you kill those 3. Then you kill Lowell if it's not all 3 of them. Good chance game gets solved in there.

[MalcolmTucker]

MalcolmTucker [5]: Andante, Vivax, Unsure, UNOwen, geraintm
Enchant [3]: Prince of Paterson, Greeting, MalcolmTucker
Prince of Paterson [2]: Lowell, Malakittens
Malakittens [1]: Firebringer

not voting [2]: Crescent, Enchant

Can you make any sense of Lowell, Mala and FB's positions here?

Do you think there's no mafia there? Or is the mafia all on this MT wagon?

In which case, what's the downside to hammering around here?

Lowell hasn't been around in ages, and Mala's only comment was to sheep Fire in defending MT when he was still -2. Enchant them got off.. So basically, scum was likely never in position to hammer.

The funny thing about Prince's wagon now is I said there's scum there, specifically pointed to where I think scum might be, and now the only two players left on him are players from that shortlist.

I believe at least two of MT, Enchant, and Mala are scum though. There has barely been anything resembling scumhunting from any of the three,

but they sure do defend each other.

I think if you kill those 3. Then you kill Lowell if it's not all 3 of them. Good chance game gets solved in there.

Yes, me and Enchant regularly defending each other here.

[MalcolmTucker]

My scumhunting has been poor this game but I've repeatedly drawn attention to that - as scum I imagine I'd be a lot more self-aware in such a situation and a lot more determined to feign reads.

[MalcolmTucker]

my opinions this game are that Meg is scum and I would like to yeet them

Then why not give any sort of reasoning why, to help convince others to wagon there? As well as making post 387 which will only make people think that you aren't to be taken seriously.

I don't like stating "reasoning" because it makes scum feel more self conscious if you push them without stating reasoning because they don't know what you caught them on and freeze up

So do you think Meg's reaction to your push was indicative of them being scum?

Since Meg hasn't answered still, the reason I'm asking about his opinion on the wagon is that I'd expect someone who had the reaction they had to the mini pileup on Fred would also show a bit of concern about scum being involved in the almost completely unexplained five vote wagon against himself. Responding to it by ignoring the votes and instead accusing FancyPants of tmi for calling it a bad wagon doesn't seem consistent. To me it looks like Meg couldn't tell whether the wagon was a bluff or not and didn't want to risk looking scummy by overreacting.

Hadn't really thought Meg was scummy previously, but this is actually fairly convincing reasoning. I'm okay with this, maybe Pooky is right after all.

VOTE: MegAzumarill

Oof, not sure if it's been mentioned but I don't think Prince comes out of this exchange looking particularly great.

Initially very defensive of Meg, but quickly changes their tune once the case is made as the wagon builds momentum. Possibility they'd maybe have been most likely to bus here?

I suppose though if town feels my role isn't going to be particularly useful/may end up being more anti-town then I may make a good compromise elimination, I think the positioning around it has been interesting so it'd give you plenty of reliable info next turn.

[MalcolmTucker]

Didn't mean to quote that post above - but was just me highlighting where I'd been at re POP earlier in the game.

[Crescent]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant?

Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

I have voted Enchant now.

Your unwillingness to even entertain the claim is unhelpful - you are too deep-rooted here in assuming I am playing a logical and calculated game when I admit I have been a bit all over the place and uncertain with reads that game, something I apologise for since it's not been helpful for town. I defended Prince a while back because I didn't think they were particularly scummy. I vote sparingly and quite frankly can't remember why I didn't vote Enchant at the time - I could have been busy the next day and may have not wanted to place down a vote before being certain in case it was hammered. I may just simply not have bothered at the time.

I've made it pretty clear that just the concept of leaving your claim alive terrifies me, because I think we end up in WIFOM hell either way and I'd rather just idle out than deal with that.

And I don't care that you voted Enchant

now

. Prince was consistently ahead of Enchant in votes, and you did not even

acknowledge

that Enchant had a train. You weren't "too busy" to acknowledge Prince was getting a train, though.

I actually had a reason to be wary of the Enchant train at the time, a stance I've already elaborated on. It feels like there's a reason that's just missing from your explanation.

[MalcolmTucker]

My read on POP did soften but can't really recall why, not sure I posted that at the time.

[MalcolmTucker]

The problem with Malcolm still remains that even if he's town, I wouldn't ever want him to fire a shot, because I think the potential for harm outweighs the potential for good.

If he's allowed to live today, and doesn't kill anyone tomorrow, I am first post voting him, and going inactive until he is dead. I won't waste my time or my energy on the WIFOM. I am then ignoring his claim for the rest of the game no matter how it flips, and what he claimed to do.

And... He STILL never explained why he defended Prince, but refused to vote Enchant, who he had been calling scum. This explanation again being

why he got votes to begin with

. He's doing exactly what he did last night. He's leveraging the claim, but not actually giving us any answers.

Why did you refuse to vote Enchant?

Why did you effectively sit there as Prince, whom you didn't like the argument on, was pushed -1, and almost killed? If the 7 people who drove momentum on you are scum led, who are the scum leading it? You have failed to do even the most basic amount of work required to justify your play or your current position.

I don't want to hear any more about this claim. I want you to explain your actions.

I have voted Enchant now.

Your unwillingness to even entertain the claim is unhelpful - you are too deep-rooted here in assuming I am playing a logical and calculated game when I admit I have been a bit all over the place and uncertain with reads that game, something I apologise for since it's not been helpful for town. I defended Prince a while back because I didn't think they were particularly scummy. I vote sparingly and quite frankly can't remember why I didn't vote Enchant at the time - I could have been busy the next day and may have not wanted to place down a vote before being certain in case it was hammered. I may just simply not have bothered at the time.

I've made it pretty clear that just the concept of leaving your claim alive terrifies me, because I think we end up in WIFOM hell either way and I'd rather just idle out than deal with that.

And I don't care that you voted Enchant

now

. Prince was consistently ahead of Enchant in votes, and you did not even

acknowledge

that Enchant had a train. You weren't "too busy" to acknowledge Prince was getting a train, though.

I actually had a reason to be wary of the Enchant train at the time, a stance I've already elaborated on. It feels like there's a reason that's just missing from your explanation.

Cool, taking a step back I do actually get this. The role - as I've acknowledged - is a very double-edged one. So while it's annoying to be eliminated when I've claimed a town role and I'm not lying, I understand the reluctance to believe me - best for town to get it over with and then assess who was positioning themselves opportunistically on D4. Should be a good way to find scum.

[Crescent]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

I would be willing to have a go at someone we may believe to be scum with town consensus. Then you'd know in advance who I was going to hit.

Good lord no. The problem with your claim to begin with is that scum can easily just save your target if you're town.

You're claiming a role that is openly detrimental to town once claimed.

[MalcolmTucker]

Malcolm you are not like your namesake at all.

The only way your role is provable is if you kill a townie at night, which you've just said you don't want to do for the risk of hitting a PR.

I would be willing to have a go at someone we may believe to be scum with town consensus. Then you'd know in advance who I was going to hit.

Good lord no. The problem with your claim to begin with is that scum can easily just save your target if you're town.

You're claiming a role that is openly detrimental to town once claimed.

Sure, I get this. Best to eliminate me. On D4, as I say, best looking at players who are positioning themselves around my wagon opportunistically.

Greeting constantly TR'ing me but then being willing to eliminate me pinged me a bit.

I think you're probably town in the end but I do have a tendency to read more analytical players in a more biased ways because it's the type of posting I like, I do fear you're trying to approach my elimination in a deliberately logical way that allows you to eliminate town without looking scummy. But then you've suspected Enchant anyway - no reason you couldn't have just let that go through.

I think Unsure is probably just tunnelled town.

[Crescent]

And your claim isn't "double edged" at all. It's meant to fire like a madman and pick off the most suspected town in the game, or to find a scum and kamikaze it during the day. It's a very strong role. If I have that role, Fred dies night 1, and the entire game looks drastically different as a result. Your claim is only double edged once claimed.

But... It would fit a theme. Basically everyone I see with town power on MS horribly botches their role on every conceivable level. One-shot scanners wasting it on guys so obviously scum they got vigged anyway. Inactive vigs playing hero and shooting players no one in the game suspected.. And etc.

[Crescent]

Also in Greeting's defense a bit, he stopped trying to kill you after your claim, and merely supported the pressure on you to get answers out of you.

[Vivax]

This page has very strong ‚a fox got dragged out of its hole and is now howling‘ vibes from Malcolm.
If town, I don‘t really see the justification for the former apathy and stalling unless there‘s some sort of Schadenfreude behind it, which is hopefully not the case.

[Crescent]

Cat Meowing Vibes!

Meow~

[Vivax]

Currently sunbasking at a forest lake watching ducks swim by, I‘ll go for a quack

[Crescent]

If town, I don‘t really see the justification for the former apathy and stalling unless there‘s some sort of Schadenfreude behind it, which is hopefully not the case.

Actually one question. What is this specifically referring to?

[Vivax]

I hope that MTs talent to be able to contribute was being kept hidden because he‘s mafia, not town who should have no reason to do so.

[MalcolmTucker]

And your claim isn't "double edged" at all. It's meant to fire like a madman and pick off the most suspected town in the game, or to find a scum and kamikaze it during the day. It's a very strong role.

If I have that role, Fred dies night 1, and the entire game looks drastically different as a result.

Your claim is only double edged once claimed.

But... It would fit a theme. Basically everyone I see with town power on MS horribly botches their role on every conceivable level. One-shot scanners wasting it on guys so obviously scum they got vigged anyway. Inactive vigs playing hero and shooting players no one in the game suspected.. And etc.

Yes, but then you risk hitting other powerful town players. I fail to see why that's beneficial.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'd rather play cautiously than, say, hit a doctor or cop or something important.