Open 857 | Frienemies | Postgame

[Something_Smart]

Well, I liked fire's attitude at the end of the day yesterday.

[fireisredsir]

i actually didn't like yours lol

[fireisredsir]

unless you are somehow mason i guess but i assume thats not the case

[Something_Smart]

On the surface I struggle to understand why scum-Looker antagonizes me the way they did. If the purpose was to make me look scummy to save Datisi they could have pushed on me far harder, and if the purpose was to bait me into doing something that seems actively bad for the scumteam unless they expect me to come in and hard defend Datisi (which Datisi would know I wouldn't do).

[Something_Smart]

i actually didn't like yours lol

What was wrong with it? I extended the day until I could do the reading I wanted, did so, reached a conclusion, discussed with some people, and decided on an action.

[Enchant]

Either mafia bussed or Looker is scum.

Otherwise there's simple not enough votes to kill Datisi.

[Something_Smart]

Hmm.

Scum are now 4/4 killing on the Penguin wagon. This could just be a coincidence. But if Looker is scum it means that scum have been deadset on killing everyone on that wagon except for them.

[Something_Smart]

I guess if scum expected masons to be on that wagon, then it implies Looker is scummier because they were able to hit one on the second try, meaning maybe they had a smaller pool to pick from.

[fireisredsir]

I've reread everything I want to. I would like to kill Datisi. However, that seems like it immediately loses us the game if Datisi is town.

I guess it probably doesn't benefit us for me to explain my reasoning.

I would also be fine killing Looker, if that somehow materializes.

what i took this as is you claiming VT. here's why:

from a mason perspective, there could be 2 or 1 mafia in the unclaimed. under an assumption that me/enchant are town, a datisi townflip means that the other 2 unclaimed are mafia and thus the game is easy.

from a vt perspective, there are 2 masons in the unclaimed and 1 mafia. a datisi townflip means that me or enchant are mafia which is bad bc it means that masons will vote you, the VT, instead, and therefore the game is likely to be lost unless you can somehow convince them that me or enchant are the last mafia

so by saying that you felt a datisi townflip loses the game, you are softing VT. there's actually zero benefit to doing this as VT if you're just going to vote datisi anyway, especially when you then go on to say "despite my best efforts, a mason will probably still die". if that was still your top priority, you wouldn't have softed VT

the only possible world where it makes sense to do that is as like a bait as mason and hope that mafia picked up on the fact that you fake softed VT??? which would be kinda nutty lol but props if you did that ig

[Something_Smart]

from a mason perspective, there could be 2 or 1 mafia in the unclaimed. under an assumption that me/enchant are town, a datisi townflip means that the other 2 unclaimed are mafia and thus the game is easy.

this doesn't make sense, why would I be assuming you and enchant are town in this case?

[fireisredsir]

because implosion was mason and made the call that he was willing to assume me and enchant are town

regardless the point is that the possibility of me or enchant being scum is the thing that makes the game much harder, because current town consensus was assuming us as town

i don't believe that there's any other reason to think that a datisi townflip would immediately lose the game, but you're free to explain your thought process behind that statement if you'd like to

[Something_Smart]

I don't think there's a point to continuing this unless the consensus is that I should claim.

[fireisredsir]

that's fine. i will probably be voting for you since even without that i think you make the most sense as a datisi partner, but i want to give things another look first

to clarify the point further: it doesn't matter if you're assuming me and enchant are town. but for a mason, a datisi townflip doesn't make the game any harder. they know where they want to look for mafia after that. nothing has fundamentally changed. implo clearly had that possibility in mind and had a plan to move forward. even if they have some suspicion of me/enchant, a datisi townflip provides no new information that would make them think the game was immediately lost.

a VT being in the unclaimed, however, would know that the game would be significantly harder to win if datisi flipped town

[Something_Smart]

so you're making a case for why I'm most likely VT and also saying you're going to vote me? or what, what's my motivation to say that as scum?

[fireisredsir]

my case is that it doesn't make sense for you to say that as VT because you have been playing this game very guarded about that sort of thing and there is no benefit to a VT to suddenly throw that away at the finish line when it doesn't actually contribute anything to town wincon to say that unless you are unwilling to vote datisi

there is obvious benefit to saying that as mafia: you look like you're having towny doubt at the final moment, you look like you're thinking about future possibilities from a town mindset, and you might even convince someone that we shouldn't kill datisi there

[Something_Smart]

You can't think of any reason why VT-me might not want to show up and hammer town-Datisi with 0 discussion?

[fireisredsir]

i can't see why you would soft VT as your only point of discussion, no.

if protecting masons is still your priority, then either talk about some other reason for your doubt or just deal with it tomorrow

if you've already given up on protecting masons, and instead you want to just share your thoughts and discuss whether datisi is the best elim here, then i don't think being coy about it in the way that you did makes sense

[Something_Smart]

So you think I should have been like "I'm VT and I'm afraid that Datisi and Looker are both town and Looker will instavote me tomorrow"? What in the world does

that

help?

[fireisredsir]

im confused how that could possibly be your thought process

in that world would you be thinking that me and enchant are both mafia?

[Something_Smart]

It would have been possible, yes. Also possible that Enchant is the town and votes me.

[fireisredsir]

i just struggle to believe that your worry about that possibility would override your desire to protect the masons when stating the worry doesn't really accomplish anything anyway

and you've throughout the game been willing to sacrifice sharing plenty of thoughts with the justification of protecting the masons

[Looker]

Hilarious

[hutmeil]

so by saying that you felt a datisi townflip loses the game, you are softing VT. there's actually zero benefit to doing this as VT if you're just going to vote datisi anyway, especially when you then go on to say "despite my best efforts, a mason will probably still die". if that was still your top priority, you wouldn't have softed VT

I've been thinking about this. How does a TownTisi immediately lose us the game? It doesn't, as evidenced by D5. So why say this? Every player on this game is a veteran except for me. So maybe SS is trying to sway my noob mind to remove my vote on Dats like Dats did on 2806. Since I'm a universal TR, if I unvote maybe others will too?

Or SS might have meant something else.

As SSTown, SS might be implying that one of Fire/Enchant is not Town.

As SSScum, it could be:
- a last ditch effort to save Dats
- or as Fire mentioned, SS is simply trying to look Towny
- SS is throwing shade on Fire/Enchant

I'm inclined to believe the latter because I'm still set on Fire/Enchant as Town.

I'm also surprised Datisi didn't try to defend himself toward the end. He was unusually quiet. Maybe scum decided to bus again? In others words, SS bussed?

As for Looker (previously STD, previously Vulture), I still haven't forgotten Vulture's suggestion for the Mason to out early. Then STD was a lurker. Then Dats brought up the bussing idea which right now leaves Looker (STD) as the only remaining bussing candidate on D1 (and me of course but I'm town obviously).

So I guess what I'm saying is I'm only voting for either Looker or SS today. @Enchant @Fire, let me know who we are voting today.

[Something_Smart]

How does a TownTisi immediately lose us the game?

Both Enchant and Looker seemed pretty eager to vote me. And it makes no sense for an Enchant/Looker team to do that if the Datisi mislim is right there. So one of them was probably town, and would probably just vote me in limlo without thinking.

[Something_Smart]

Yes it was VT indicative. I felt like the risk of losing the game due to townies tunneling me was important enough to slightly increase the chances of a mason dying.

There's another thing that I forgot to mention-- me spewing VT wouldn't actually increase the chances of a mason dying. Because of the pressure on me, if scum thought the masons were me/X, they'd always kill X. And after Looker turned on me, the only viable X's left in that equation were the real masons.

The only thing that might conceivably happen is Datisi flips scum, one mason dies, and I somehow manage to convince scum I'm the last mason. But given the pressure, I didn't think that was likely either (and that thought seems to have been correct).

My explanations yesterday were halfhearted because I was trying not to claim VT but now that 100% of living players have expressed suspicion of me there's no reason not to. This is, I think, the main reason why I felt okay saying that.

And another side note, in case this wasn't obvious-- "I need to reread" meant "I need to figure out who the masons are". I was pretty convinced Ari was mason because of how she pushed Enchant and seemed confident they weren't mason despite that being the most likely explanation for why they quickhammered someone who was softing mason.