Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Loki Dokie]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

GL is obviously very townie and I think Ari is as well on rereading her iso.

I also think that in this setup, scum is far more likely to engage in distancing. And Kitty singled out Dann’s vote on me specifically. Kitty went down to give scum towncred, that’s why he didn’t put up much of a fight.

And that’s why Kuti is the perfect mislimbait to put with Dann because what fighting chance would scum have with Kuti? And Kuti wasn’t on Kitty which also makes them a great option.

But nothing about their iso is actually scummy and Dann jumped on them for ridiculous reasons. They’re a new player, so of course they’d be asking for game links irrespective of alignment, so no reason for Dann to jump on them for that.

Town!Dann is also more likely to townblock this early but here, he jumped on multiple players like Ari for example and also Bell.

[Loki Dokie]

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

I don't really like this

kutiplz have you gotten any value out of reading cold meta in the past?

Why tf. is Dann sr this anyway? In what world is this a scummy question?

These serirs of posts also ping me. Why is asking for cold meta reads ever scum indicative? Not saying scum couldn’t ever make such a post but it’s a weird post for Dann to be jumping on.

It could be used by scum to provide an appearance of doing something without actually contributing to the game. Especially if all that meta reading never gets brought up again, which I don't believe it was in this case.

I never said that was town indicative of itself but it’s at best town indicative and at worst nia. The point is, it’s not in itself scum indicative. Especially since we know Kuti is a newer player. And he did do the exact same thing in a previous towngame, which he pointed out.

[Loki Dokie]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

[Bell]

ISO’d kitty. I don’t really see much there. One push looks near identifical to the next. Besides my interactions with them I don’t see much that’s interesting and it’s only interesting to me, because well, I was seriously considering changing my vote out of boredom and then they died.

[furtiveglance]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

I don't think I was at the exact reads I am now when I first read this, but have we overlooked Town!Kuti plz being killed for their reads?

[furtiveglance]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

I don't think I was at the exact reads I am now when I first read this, but have we overlooked Town!Kuti plz being killed for their reads?

I just get genuine vibes from this looking back - townreading KittyTacky in particular when there was a lot of pressure on them, and there's scumreading Dann/Ari which weren't mainstream opinions.

[Radical Rat]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

[furtiveglance]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

About GL, sometimes mafia decide to leave a UTR uncontested because pushing them looks bad. I don't think reads in general matter as much for this game, and I'm realising my earlier comment about voting with townreads is probably not the right way to play. It doesn't matter who among the living is town as long as I vote correctly each day.

[Loki Dokie]

Town ish vibes:

GuiltyLion: my first tr of the game, very much like they were in our previous games, just overall a gut and soul read
Loki: feeling good about this slot, their solving is logical (like how they are doing it in the thread), I like the effort to look into Vivax old game. In p#602
Greetign: weakest of the three, I feel like her emotions have been genuine. Dunno how to feel about the buddying
Kitty: weakest of them all, a town lean, their tone is genuine and maybe im weak to it.

Scummy vibes:
Dann: I feel like they kinda fell off since the beginning (I know I'm being a hypocrite)
Ari: I dunno how to feel about them trying to buddy everyone and her post have been agenda driven
Vivax: his tone and what not is not what I'm used to. He doesn't feel towny because he's missing his trademark tinfoil. I am sus of him
VOTE: vivax

I don't think I was at the exact reads I am now when I first read this, but have we overlooked Town!Kuti plz being killed for their reads?

Possibly?

I’m just seeing way too many red flags with Dann and Kuti just looks like such obvious miselimbait. I just think that if Kuti’s actually scum here, scum would go with someone who’s more strongly tr to go up against Dann and I stand by Dann was being overly lamisty here for rvs and his vote on me - with the juxtaposition of both “weird” and “funnier” didn’t look genuine to me. How can I both be acting both “weird” and a vote on me be “funnier” at the same time? And his non-reaction to fire’s unvote just doesn’t make any sense coming from town!Dann. Town!Dann townblocks alot more but here he just threw out multiple srs, some for reasoning that made very little sense to me. Also all of the associatives that look like terrible scum theatre aren’t helping my townread on him any. Kitty just happens to dislike Dann’s vote on me the most and after reading that scumgame, it’s hard to not see Dann and Roden as buddies.

And I’m just really not buying his subpar chicken little impersonation either. It’s fucking rvs and it would be fine to push and ask questions but at rvs, it was a ridiculous over reaction. Sorry fire, I jusy don’t agree with you. At a later point in the day, I’d view it very differently but to me it screams let’s jump on a townie for the silliest possible of reasons. I’d probably not judge a newbie player extremely hard for that but Dann has had plenty of experience.

[Loki Dokie]

I think the main thing GL picked up on with fire that appealed to me was that they seemed to have a post-hoc justification for a read that didn't come off to me as an entirely natural train of though. Rather, it felt like it could have been someone searching for a reason to support that read. The whole logical error part of the argument is less enticing to me. Town make logical errors in their thinking all the time, it's more the feeling that it wasn't a natural train of thought for fire that lead me to like GL's argument.

I'll chicken out and say fire is still a pretty mixed read. They strike me as a good player and while the stuff GL is putting pressure on has me suspicious I think I need a much larger volume of content from them to develop a better read.

Meanwhile, Roden's pop-in was lacking a lot to be desired. It took the form of that cookie-cutter scum pop-in that I tend towards a lot when I have a red PM.
1.

place a vote down on an easy to push townie

2. throw out a read for content
3. make one more post about anything to appear natural

more votes here

Roden is right about one thing, It’s extremely hard to miselim me. And most players who pocket me usually wind up to be players who initially jumped on me for silly reasons because it’s so difficult to tell the difference between actual town who changed their mind and scum doing the same thing. Of course Kitty was obviously an exception.

I thought you were mislim bait and that was your whole paranoid shtick this game.....probably doesn't matter but yeah

If a relatively inexperienced player like furtive can see its bs, how does an experienced player like Dann not see it?

[GuiltyLion]

And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.

if I'm deep wolf and my goal here is to get a point on behalf of mafia kuti, wouldn't it be easier for me to put kuti up against whoever is town in you, Roden, Vivax, etc? I guess one could argue getting Dann out *and* getting a point would be the best world for scum!GL, but I dunno it'd be a huge uphill battle

do you have any points for why kuti is scum based on their ISO/posts?

[Radical Rat]

Well, so far it seems like GL and Loki are leaning towards Dannflor, and Fire/Vivax/RR are leaning towards kuti plz.

Anyway, follow up to this is I'd know who I'd rather vote with, regardless of who we're actually voting.

This actually does concern me as well. Unfortunately, I have concerns on both sides, and those concerns aren't likely to be alleviated until I get to see how Dann and kuti flip.

What are your concerns and who with?

Vivax is the obvious one. It worries me greatly that my top scumread from D1 has arrived at the same conclusion, but with so many scum it seems a bit farfetched that BOTH leading wagons were on scum. Plus if kuti IS scum it actually makes Vivax look significantly better.

And then I also have a growing paranoia that GL could be deepwolfing here, but that isn't really substantiated by anything yet. I just find it very strange that no one has really expressed suspicion on him. Like, you'd think at least one or two scum would be trying to sow doubt on a true obvtown. And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.


But without flips I can't really draw proper conclusions here. Kitty's flip is... Spectacularly uninformative, which is why there may have been merit to scum sacrificing him. This pair is going to be much juicier though

About GL, sometimes mafia decide to leave a UTR uncontested because pushing them looks bad. I don't think reads in general matter as much for this game, and I'm realising my earlier comment about voting with townreads is probably not the right way to play. It doesn't matter who among the living is town as long as I vote correctly each day.

And that's why it's little more than paranoia right now.

[Loki Dokie]

@RR what do you think of my arguments for Dann!scum? You seemed to have ignored all of them to focus on paranoing GL.

[Radical Rat]

And then if Dannflor flips green.... Not a great look.

if I'm deep wolf and my goal here is to get a point on behalf of mafia kuti, wouldn't it be easier for me to put kuti up against whoever is town in you, Roden, Vivax, etc? I guess one could argue getting Dann out *and* getting a point would be the best world for scum!GL, but I dunno it'd be a huge uphill battle

do you have any points for why kuti is scum based on their ISO/posts?

Kuti like. Barely played, hard to glean anything meaningful on their alignment from their posts. Which is what makes them the perfect scum to play here: no real contribution to day play, so safe to remove from the team, but also nothing immediately scummy to make the vote too easy. The ideal weapon for WIFOM.

I've been trying to avoid thinking about hypothetical alternate pairings, because that is a giant rabbit hole I will not leave once I enter. I will say though that it certainly doesn't look like it IS an uphill battle for you. Most people seem at least open to the idea, and even my own opinion here is on very shaky ground.

[Radical Rat]

@RR what do you think of my arguments for Dann!scum? You seemed to have ignored all of them to focus on paranoing GL.

I'm gonna go through them properly in a moment, but general statement is that they make sense and I'm considering it.

[Radical Rat]

Too lazy to gather and trim quotes right now, but...

Shading kuti for asking for past games
- I see your point that it's probably NAI and a weird thing to push, but it was pretty early without much else to go on... Could go either way.

Theater with Roden
-A bit presumptuous, but very possible, especially with the provided quotes from past games. And you're right that distancing is crucial for scum in this setup

Kitty shading Dann
-This one is real interesting to me, because it does seem to foreshadow Dannflor's presence in the test today, and while speculating on what we were supposed to think of Dannflor after Kitty's flip is WIFOM I will not engage with here, I do think it's more likely scum planned which of them would die ahead of time than them planning a Townie.

Referring to you as an easy push
-This is probably the most compelling argument for me. I do not believe that him either recognizing or not recognizing you is AI, BUT even without that it should have been plainly obvious that you're not going to be easy to get rid of that way, so it does kinda sound like scum had decided you'd be a mislim target and Dannflor was slightly slipping that.

[Radical Rat]

Did I miss anything?

[Loki Dokie]

Did I miss anything?

Yeah, I’m not sr him for not recognizing who I am. I’m sr him for not reacting to fire’s unvote of me and why. I also know that he correctly alt read in a previous game, so I don’t believe that he had no clue who I might be after fire’s unvote.

I also find him simultaneously calling my reaction “weird” with saying him voting me was “funnier”, doesn’t makea whole lot of sense.m

Calling my reaction “weird” means possible scum but juxtaposing that with voting me is “funnier” strikes me as tmi tr me.

Also, the sheer number of srs he threw out is very atypical for Dann. And the only game I think he was probably ever obvtown was Forrest Fire but he played very differently there. His srs were very focused and you could see how it made actual sense from a townie perspective and yes, he had way more trs than srs.

Also I think he might have slipped when he mixed up Kitty and Kuti.

[Loki Dokie]

long answer short my vote on fire isn't doing anything right now

your reaction to him and me is weird

and voting you is just funnier right now

I see both of these thoughts as being inconsistent. Why would he think my reaction was funny if he actually thought I was possibly scum or “weird”?

It reads like he knew he needed to somehiw justify his bad vote on me, which makes it read insincere.

[Loki Dokie]

I mean his vote on me. It’s only “funnier” if his intention was to troll me. And why would he want to troll me as scum? If he genuinely sr me my reaction or thought it “weird”, than why his vote on me funny?

Very obvious perspective slip with this.

[Loki Dokie]

Spoiler:

We are currently in rvs so nothing is pinging me as awkward or stiff in an uncomfortable mafia way yet.

How do I share photos

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

idk what the optimal way to play it is but i just know that town!you would be thinking about it

wouldn't scum!Ari be thinking about how town!Ari would play and how town!Ari would think about it? I don't think this is a town indicative thing

shhhh im letting her pocket me

i think its slightly town indicative. i don't think that ari's main priority as scum is to match how she'd play as town, and i don't think most people would really would have that reaction or that she would expect them to. so if it was performative it was a very directed performance

Why are you trying to pocket her

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

this sounds like a post made by someone who feels obligated to start posting real content but doesn't really have much to say yet

Code: Select all

Do you believe this is due to AI programming, or a simple human instinct?

Is this going to be a game long gimmick

I'm going to be honest none of these posts or the bolded questions inside of them really feel like genuine thoughts to me. Or rather, they are very surface level questions pushed out so that you have something to say

I'm not really getting the sense you actually want the answers to any of these questions nor that you hope some productivity will spark out of them. I might be being unfair if this is a strategy you've relied on in the past but the first one especially pings me because it strikes me as highly unlikely that anyone would be able to get reasonable value out of trawling through past games of a bunch of players they are unfamiliar with

as the very first step

to getting to know them. It seems like a way to seem productive but actually avoid having to prod people about this game. Instead it would seem more natural to me if you were prodding people about this game.

granted, you are doing that too... sorta. but "how to post photos" and the "is this going to be a game long gimmick" are both questions that like don't really require an answer, or I'm not sure what value you're hoping to gain by posting them in thread

i also find the part of the fireisred's post that you latched onto like the least interesting part because it seems clearly jokey

Yes we are in RVS and you claim nothing has been pinging you as off - but that means I expect your following questions to be trying to prod people that you think are off or just trying to get people out of their comfort zone, but I feel like I'm seeing more just posts to fill space

pedit:

it is very possible your playstyle is more fluffy here and I am misreading you based off that. how would you describe how you're trying to play this early game?

Another really odd take. Its really not unusual to not have anything particularly pinging you during rvs. It’s far more usual for scum to jump on this sort of thing though.

Aei jumped on Kitty for being inconsistent not for not doing enough. This kind of take makes sense post-rvs but it’s once again an over the top reaction.

[Loki Dokie]

Spoiler:

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

I don't really like this

kutiplz have you gotten any value out of reading cold meta in the past?

Yep I like to do this when I'm new to sites so I can familiarize myself about how people play and their micro tells like sentence/word/behavioral tells

Hi Dann, *waits politely to the side*

You can view old games by clicking on the player name then going to view topics and it will show you all the places they've posted in, most of which should be games unless they're social.

Fair enough, I just assume people play on sites outside of ms

I'm here. Town obviously.
No reads yet.

But the cake is a lie

Scum.

Basically reading how people play helps me read them better so. I'm not misunderstanding them due to play style reasons. I think I make sense to people that aren't me?

Hi Dann, *waits politely to the side*

You can view old games by clicking on the player name then going to view topics and it will show you all the places they've posted in, most of which should be games unless they're social.

Fair enough, I just assume people play on sites outside of ms

Nobody ever links those games unless you harass them. For the best, I swear they have a policy of posting totally differently depending on the website they're on.

Spoiler:

We are currently in rvs so nothing is pinging me as awkward or stiff in an uncomfortable mafia way yet.

How do I share photos

Furtive glance and anyone else,

Want to share your old games so I can get a feel of how you play as either alignments

:curtain:

idk what the optimal way to play it is but i just know that town!you would be thinking about it

wouldn't scum!Ari be thinking about how town!Ari would play and how town!Ari would think about it? I don't think this is a town indicative thing

shhhh im letting her pocket me

i think its slightly town indicative. i don't think that ari's main priority as scum is to match how she'd play as town, and i don't think most people would really would have that reaction or that she would expect them to. so if it was performative it was a very directed performance

Why are you trying to pocket her

they seem to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

but the random town reads from Aristeia make me uneasy, especially in this setup

this sounds like a post made by someone who feels obligated to start posting real content but doesn't really have much to say yet

Code: Select all

Do you believe this is due to AI programming, or a simple human instinct?

Is this going to be a game long gimmick

I'm going to be honest none of these posts or the bolded questions inside of them really feel like genuine thoughts to me. Or rather, they are very surface level questions pushed out so that you have something to say

I'm not really getting the sense you actually want the answers to any of these questions nor that you hope some productivity will spark out of them. I might be being unfair if this is a strategy you've relied on in the past but the first one especially pings me because it strikes me as highly unlikely that anyone would be able to get reasonable value out of trawling through past games of a bunch of players they are unfamiliar with

as the very first step

to getting to know them. It seems like a way to seem productive but actually avoid having to prod people about this game. Instead it would seem more natural to me if you were prodding people about this game.

granted, you are doing that too... sorta. but "how to post photos" and the "is this going to be a game long gimmick" are both questions that like don't really require an answer, or I'm not sure what value you're hoping to gain by posting them in thread

i also find the part of the fireisred's post that you latched onto like the least interesting part because it seems clearly jokey

Yes we are in RVS and you claim nothing has been pinging you as off - but that means I expect your following questions to be trying to prod people that you think are off or just trying to get people out of their comfort zone, but I feel like I'm seeing more just posts to fill space

pedit:

it is very possible your playstyle is more fluffy here and I am misreading you based off that. how would you describe how you're trying to play this early game?

Dann already knew Kuti was nrw to the site and just like him not at all reacting to fire unvoting me, he fails to take any of that into account. Contrast this with Bell’s reaction which is focused on being helpful.

Bell doesn’t look to be having any agenda with his posting. That is a strong alignment tell in general. Again. Ari had valid reasons to push Kitty but Dann didn’t have valid reasons here to push Kuti.

[Vulture]

Wolves down bad.

Not to form a wolfy little narrative but I kind of want to bumrush through this day with a Dann elim. Feel decently okay about him being a wolf, and I think maybe the idea was for someone to like, really build up a case on Dann and flip and go throughout the game, hope wolves can get up to like 2-2 and then send it home for them.
Seems simplistic but this game is ? right now.

[Radical Rat]

long answer short my vote on fire isn't doing anything right now

your reaction to him and me is weird

and voting you is just funnier right now

I see both of these thoughts as being inconsistent. Why would he think my reaction was funny if he actually thought I was possibly scum or “weird”?

It reads like he knew he needed to somehiw justify his bad vote on me, which makes it read insincere.

I don't really think this is as big a slip as you think it is. In tandem with everything else though... yeah, I'm coming around to Dann looking worse than kuti.


Problem I have though is that it could just be because kuti doesn't have that many posts with which to appear scummy... But it's probably fine. Deal with it after the flips.

[Radical Rat]

Wolves down bad.

Not to form a wolfy little narrative but I kind of want to bumrush through this day with a Dann elim. Feel decently okay about him being a wolf, and I think maybe the idea was for someone to like, really build up a case on Dann and flip and go throughout the game, hope wolves can get up to like 2-2 and then send it home for them.
Seems simplistic but this game is ? right now.

Is this shading Loki?