LOST (Game Over)

[Rad]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

Because there's still a bit of time till the turn is gone and naturally the town is unlikely to eliminate someone right away. If you're scum then your gambit has potentially worked here by making people less likely to vote for you. Certainly it was the main driver of my doubt yesterday.

Nobody wants this day to go for its full length. It's anti-town to push for that, tbh. Townies are going to continue to get more and more frustrated and apathetic the more we spin wheels here and delay.

[MalcolmTucker]

Push harder bb, I can't even get the rad wagon to happen but I'll happily hammer myself if you can pull it off.

Because there's still a bit of time till the turn is gone and naturally the town is unlikely to eliminate someone right away. If you're scum then your gambit has potentially worked here by making people less likely to vote for you. Certainly it was the main driver of my doubt yesterday.

Nobody wants this day to go for its full length. It's anti-town to push for that, tbh. Townies are going to continue to get more and more frustrated and apathetic the more we spin wheels here and delay.

I'm happy to end it soon but would also rather not rush it too if anyone is unsure. Apathy is a choice and all that after all, we've had some relatively quickish turns post the marathon that was D1 and seems natural one would come along where we'd get bogged down.

You'll also surely see that when someone starts openly advocating for their own elimination it typically makes the town more reluctant to follow through. It's a bold tactic but could hypothetically be working here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one. How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

[Best Bird]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one. How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

Okay but I still don’t see how that makes RAD scum? I also think that Dunn clearly softed vig and we know Math is was scum rb, so you think that Bella would just risk letting Math die, when he was strongly sr?

That alone doesn’t make Rad scum, it’s just not clearing as you suspect it is. I have to get off my phone to paraphrase the rest of the case and I can’t do that rn.

Following up on this:

Luke pointed out that Rad's thoughts on a role with the ability to talk to dead people has been inconsistent with someone who is actually trying to sort me or Mala (when it was assumed that was what she was claiming in the early game). Instead, it comes across that he is looking to support an assumed stance instead of trying to use information to develop a stance.

Spoiler:

So I went ahead and read through Luke's ISO so far...

luke's 85 is referring to Off the Hook (marci version I think... yeah confirmed in 166). I think this town read is a super easy thing for scum!Luke to say to town!OTH, but also a reasonably easy thing for scum!Luke to say to scum!OTH. Does town!Luke really have this much confidence in a town read that soon based on meta alone?

luke town reads Mala in 78/166 from Mala's 2 opening posts. 2. opening. posts. I was thinking about Mala's potential power claim - being able to talk to the dead? Intitially sounds like a townie type power,

but what if it's a scum power? That would be really powerful as well

, being able to talk to the dead and make up dead town reads as they see fit. Plus I think you'd be more likely to just let that one slip early as scum to try to look like a town claim, cause if you're town and you just gave away a huge power like that, you're not even going to get a chance to use it as you're most likely going to be the first NK. So I'm not sure where this town read is coming from beyond potentially reading that power as a town power and not thinking it through?

Beyond that, for the most part, Luke's posts are just about the game's flavor, some past game banter, some non-AI style conversations about game rules or theory.

I'm not saying Luke's just trying to look useful without saying much... but... yeah that's the impression I just got from reading the ISO so far. I mean I was expecting to go into it and get some decent content out of it, but it was really thin on anything useful. I know it's early game so everyone's been spamming a bunch of useless bs, but Luke's ISO reads like it's serious from the start, and all I really got out of it was 2 bad town reads and a lot of nothing.

Hey

@Frogster

take a quick glance at Luke's ISO and tell me if you see the same lack of content. I ask you specifically because of your 270 which makes me believe you've got an eye for that sort of thing.

In this, Rad is looking for a reason to call Luke scummy early Day 1 so he looked for a reason and basically develops a: it's nonsensical it is for Luke to think that is could be a town power so Luke could be scum. However, Rad later calls me town and is asked why, he states

I can't fathom why scum!BB would be given the PR to talk to dead people.

I guess scum!BB could find out a dead person's role or target and then potentially manipulate town with that info however they chose to.

I had never thought of something like that. For me, it was either town!BB is telling the truth or scum!BB is lying.

Which is inconsistent with his early statement.

Luke has also pointed out that Rad's play around Mala was really bad (he said he basically hated every post Rad made about targetting Bella) as it was the right play and Rad was just latching on to push the wagon through:

Spoiler:

they said that math is roleblocker
idk why they haven't claimed any results for n4 today

Ah yeah, looking back, I guess they did claim Math in some weird ass roundabout way.

So Mala targeted:

Ceph - lol, but yeah, only possible target so whatever
Math - good target
Bella - why do we care about Bella there over Dunn?

This is also all information available to scum!Mala whether they're coroner or not because no reason to believe Ceph didn't full claim. Coming up with a claim on someone like Dunn who we've been curious about is counter-claimable via a town!BB or town!OTH.

Dunnstral is theorized to have been the vig, but i don't remember when we settled on that theory. D4 perhaps?

Either Luke or bell can be coroner'd tonight

The question is why does Mala target Bella over Dunn. What info do we get that we care about from targeting Bella?

Dunnstral is theorized to have been the vig, but i don't remember when we settled on that theory. D4 perhaps?

Either Luke or bell can be coroner'd tonight

The question is why does Mala target Bella over Dunn. What info do we get that we care about from targeting Bella?

Mala!scum could target Dunn and give Bellas info in its place sure. Since they’d already know Bella’s role.

I moreso meant that town!Mala targeting Bella doesn't make sense when Dunn was an option. Bella's flavor matched the doc claim. So Bella was either just telling the truth and was a scum doc, or she was stealing it from a scum partner. Do we actually care one way or the other? Does confirming scum!Bella's doc role after the flip matter? Clearing up the Dunn mystery would at least give us some info about N1.

Even if there's some weird town explanation for bella over Dunn, there's no town explanation for frog n4 besides "whoops I don't care about this game so I made bad decisions"

I already said math was a good choice and ceph was your only choice. Bella is arguably bad and frog is lolol

But bella is scum so it literally doesn't matter even if their claim make sense or not.
Since it's natural for scum to lie removing any doubts about their real role would be more beneficial.

I dunno what to tell you man. What does town gain from knowing Bella was a doc or not? Who cares? We'd learn more from Dunn. You may not have been around during the dunn discussions but we were all pretty confused by the 2 town kills n1 and knowing dunn's actual role could have helped clear things up. Ultimately we don't know if scum targeted dunn or frog n1 and that info could help us understand. I don't see what knowing bella's a doc or not really helps.

The second quote is probably the most egregious one as it starts from the standpoint of already knowing that Bella was true claiming when Town wouldn't have known that. Wouldn't town!Rad have been curious to see if she was true claiming since she flipped mafia? That comes across as a perspective slip of him already knowing Bella was a scumdoc, but really wanting to know what Dunn was since he wouldn't have had that info.

I've already presented the info on why Bella flipping scum!Doc and "protecting" Rad N1 is not clearing and discussed how Rad reading Luke's scum games.

I mean I am reading (as is Luke) and your repeated posts about you needing to die for the game state, it's inevitable, don't feel bad out it, etc...but then go on to be like "hey guys, I'm town and I'm going to make sure that I tell that to literally every single person that shows an inkling of scumreading me and then i'm going to tell them to reread the game thinking I'm town, and everyone who town reads me please speak up" is scummy. The second half makes the first have feel sooo fake and with the intent to get town reads.

You swapping to a potentially viable alternative wagon to yours just reinforces the fakeness.

[MalcolmTucker]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one.

How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

The consensus on that slot seems to be town since Math didn't seem bothered about who was voted out during the gladiate but I'm not too confident on the slot - as I've said there's likely been some scum theatre somewhere and if Math gauged Taly was the initial likely elimination (or vice versa) then I don't think it's impossible the slot is scum. I felt like Taly was asking a lot of questions to look busy without doing much before they replaced out, and like you say Yeet has been non-existent in the game since replacing in. Feel like more pressure needs to go here.

[MalcolmTucker]

Agree with BB's compilation post above.

[butterflies]

I took a look at that C&G CW that contained the 2 Green Peeks from Pooky on it (Luke and T-Bone) along with BBT and Johnny.

This can easily be a wolf CW that had a wolf top wagon as well.


VOTE: C&G

That tells us absolutely nothing. CW to what even? T-Bone, Luke, Bell and Ceph all wanted to kill Taly at one point, so what is your argument?

CW to Math that can be wolf.

Why is a CW to Math scum?

[butterflies]

Now thing is do people want to vote Optimally or does town want to keep doing the ML.

Maybe if you stopped making ridiculous arguments, people would not roll their eyes at your posts? Idk what DNA is but your argument for sr them is nutso.

Not really.

I took a look at that C&G CW that contained the 2 Green Peeks from Pooky on it (Luke and T-Bone) along with BBT and Johnny.

This can easily be a wolf CW that had a wolf top wagon as well.


VOTE: C&G

That tells us absolutely nothing. CW to what even? T-Bone, Luke, Bell and Ceph all wanted to kill Taly at one point, so what is your argument?

CW to Math that can be wolf.

Why is a CW to Math scum?

[butterflies]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

You and Malcolm mind-melding here

[Rad]

Though I've explained the "why" - because I'm a huge liability at end game. The "who" I have no clue.

Also I could be wrong and I'm not being flipped easily for some other reason.

[butterflies]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one. How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

No absolutely not. If I have one 100% locktown read. it’s that one. I’ve already explained why already numerous times. Toog’s second post and Math/Taly interactions during gladiate. Yeet is NEVER ever scum here.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Fwiw I think Rad (if town) and I are basically Elo poison if we make it that far.

If I had my way today I'd prolly vote out CSF or C&G. I'm willing to compromise on basically any non-confirmed slot.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I forgot Yeet replaced Taly, I agree Taly is likely town.

I was actually thinking of Mislim. My bad.

I need to look over the Rad thing from BB when I can read it properly.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

CSF is a wagon I could get behind

[butterflies]

We have over 6 days left. Can we get a consensus wagon anywhere else?

Malcolm and Rad feel town, enough people seem to think Johnny is town that I'll concede that one.

How about Yeet? Virtually non-existent since replacing in?

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

The consensus on that slot seems to be town since Math didn't seem bothered about who was voted out during the gladiate but I'm not too confident on the slot - as I've said there's likely been some scum theatre somewhere and if Math gauged Taly was the initial likely elimination (or vice versa) then I don't think it's impossible the slot is scum. I felt like Taly was asking a lot of questions to look busy without doing much before they replaced out, and like you say Yeet has been non-existent in the game since replacing in. Feel like more pressure needs to go here.

That’s not the only reason. Toog’s second post. Toog NEVER makes that post as scum.

[Rad]

Fwiw I think Rad (if town) and I are basically Elo poison if we make it that far.

If I had my way today I'd prolly vote out CSF or C&G. I'm willing to compromise on basically any non-confirmed slot.

Ahh elo poison's a good term for it. Absolutely what I'm saying here.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We're nowhere near ELo so yeah, that seems silly.

[butterflies]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

You and Malcolm mind-melding here

Well, it’s a pretty logical question. If you’re town, why wouldn’t scum want you gone? I really don’t understand that at all?

[butterflies]

Though I've explained the "why" - because I'm a huge liability at end game. The "who" I have no clue.

Also I could be wrong and I'm not being flipped easily for some other reason.

But you could arguably make that argument for other slots, couldn’t you? Also Drap isn’t helping anything because his reasoning for pretty much anything makes absolutely no sense to me.

[Rad]

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game. I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who is the scum who don’t want you gone and why?

You could catch another scum tonight drap. You should probably die the following night anyway. If you're at end game with me and you're town, I'm probably going to vote you cause you shouldn't be there. So there's no end game scenario where you and me win this for town. If I show up at end game with someone like BB or Malcolm and they're town, we lose. It's just too easy for scum to mix me in with whoever they choose to win the game.

I'm a hard wagon today because scum don't want me gone yet.

Who do you specifically think doesn't want you gone and why do you think they want to keep you in the game? In this scenario it'd suggest all the counterwagons to you are town, no? Otherwise scum would surely prefer to see you eliminated, even if they're careful about how they go about it.

I dunno. It's hard for me to work out who's what here cause I've never been in this scenario before.

You and Malcolm mind-melding here

Well, it’s a pretty logical question. If you’re town, why wouldn’t scum want you gone? I really don’t understand that at all?

I've explained it enough and I think it's an easy concept. I don't think scum just cares about killing any town any day. Some are better to keep around until later. Even if I was a good normal ML yesterday and today, I think I'm even better now for late game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Scum are almost certainly happy with the game-state because there has been barely any movement anywhere else.

Game is stale as fuck

[butterflies]

Fwiw I think Rad (if town) and I are basically Elo poison if we make it that far.

If I had my way today I'd prolly vote out CSF or C&G. I'm willing to compromise on basically any non-confirmed slot.

Idk what CSF is but re-ISOing Corwin/Bella, I definitely can’t say associatives are clearing for them.

[Best Bird]

Can someone concisely explain why Malcolm or Rad are scum please? Nice, short paragraph will do.

Luke's PT summary but paraphrased:

Rad looks like he is partnered with both flipped scum.

Corwin: When Luke did his whole "Town Leaded" thing day 1 (2061) he said that we was leaning between Corwin or Toad. Rad had scumread Corwin (2087, 2088) but voted Toad instead (2098). Leaning scum on your scumbuddy, but then going and finding a better place to park your vote is "The Gold Standard" for partners.

Math: Rad then continued to say that he scum read the slot, but avoided voting there until the very end when it was inevitable. Luke provided a break down of this in 11009.

Bella: Tried so hard to save her.

---

Scum!Rad is the only thing that Luke can come up with for why Bell was night killed on Night 2. Bell was a claimed "just a Neighbor," and was not the most town read player in the game. However, scum decided not to PR hunt or to kill off more town read players / the masons. Remember that Bell was also repeatedly chiming in to tell Luke that he scum read Rad. At that time, Rad was probably the player that the scum team felt most able to endgame (Luke is aware that that has likely changed as of now). This would also explain Luke dying before TBone.

---

In the same vein as to what I said above, Luke doesn't like Rad's alternation between his acceptance on needing to be eliminated; his telling people its okay to vote him coupled with the sheer amount of survivalism in his posts...it just feels fake. And, Rad has been doing it for more then just today 11499.

---

Mentioned in Luke's case above, Luke hated the way Rad threw a temper tantrum over how horrible it was to vote out Taly because Taly and Caph were both Town, but in Rad's more recent reads list (13408), he has tried to completely distance himself from that (likely because he wants to make a Taly miselim viable).

---

In Rad's reads list, he really likes to leave his options open. He has town read nearly every person this game, but he has left a "paranoia read" line next to them, so he keeps it viable to push them later. Also, he does not commit to scum reads except for his current push (His first reads list (5169) has no scum reads, null is the worst. His most recent reads list (13736) has 3 red names. Mason 1, Mason 2, and C&G. C&G being based exclusively on the Posting Restriction)

---

yeah i dunno, maybe doc was on you luke? but again, the more town!Luke survives, the more sus he becomes. Very specifically town!Luke fits that scenario of "if he's at end game, this guy is scum" kind of scapegoat possibility.

Luke also feels like this post was a "TMI" of the scum plan. Luke felt like this is exactly what the scum team was doing to him until Pooky cleared his slot. Luke doesn't think that it makes a lot of sense for a town!Rad to be in this headspace.[/quote]