Mini Normal 2279: VGSR - GAME OVER

[hutmeil]

@Ausuka

Are you open to the idea that hutmeil's townplay has qualities of people pleasing which is the cause of their scummy appearance in this game?

I'd be willing to consider it. I've read his other games to compare, and I don't think his playstyle explains his play here, though. I also think, while people pleasing could explain some of his scummy behaviour, there are other things I scumread that would not be explained by that.

I'm interested to know what you think my playstyle is?

People pleasing? Hmmm, I don't know maybe it's just difference in cultures. From where I'm from we try to be accommodating and polite as possible. But that's RL. Maybe next time it shouldn't spill over in-game since it seems to be misconstrued as scummy behavior.

Also if Hutmeil is town playing scummy I would be very surprised at the lack of momentum that has built on them

They were playing almost exactly the same way as Juice except like slightly less blatant about it and when Juice was at E 1 no one was even talking about hutmeil

I'm not saying that any particular individual is scum with Hutmeil or something - part of the reason this happened is because Juice was blatant, as I said - but as an overall trend it's concerning that so few people have called him out.

Is hutmeil guaranteed to be scum? No. Is he the most likely to be mafia right now? Imo, definitely.

I'm at E-1 now, happy?

I honestly don’t remember why I did this. I played one game with him where I was scum, and felt threatened enough that I killed him (Newbie 2095). I probably saw the same tone as in that game and just put him into the townbin for that. I will have to check to make sure though.

I remember that game. BBT came in strong and scum killed him for that (as you said).

But I also remembered how you played scum in that game is similar to how you are playing now. You we're posting as needed ( I guess so as not to get prodded ) and flying under the radar and acting helpful to newbies which of course makes you look townie to them.

Which newbie did I help this game? I am scumreading

hoppip

, who sounds like a newbie, because this isn't the Newbie queue.

How am I flying under the radar? I have like 3-4 people voting me now.

This post makes zero sense actually and says nothing about how "

BBT

came strong" in your opinion. So you agree with my read and you think I'm likely scum?

I'm not talking about this game. I'm talking about the newbie game where you're helpful to newbies and telling/reminding them what and what not to do.

You have 3-4 people voting you as of your saying that and I believe it's because it's exactly that - you were flying under the radar. I know there's real life and V/LA because of RL, but this could be used by scum to coast. That happened in my last game too. The slot was V/LA because of good actual RL reasons but the slot was scum.

Again, I was talking about the newbie game when I said BBT came in strong and intimidating. I agree that BBT was intimidating that game. You were scum and feel intimidated. I was town and felt it too.

But my point has nothing to do with BBT. What I'm pointing out is, how you're playing now is eerily similar to your newbie scum game.

I just don't really get the hutmeil case. Like I could maybe buy into

he's not being as active as normal

but beyond that its ????

Part of me just feels like voting out MND or Gandhi would be fairly constructive b/c I don't trust Gandhi's

leave me until day 3

and I think MND's plodding catchup is fake.

Ok, I'm going to lay out the case for Hutmeil in this post all together. If it still doesn't go through at least I tried

So, the #1 thing for me is how reactive Hutmeil has been. Almost everything he's done has been *in response* to the actions of someone else, and he's shown very little that looks like genuine scumhunting. In fact, I think unvoting furtive after RVS is one of the only things he's really done proactively and even then you could argue it's just convenient for scum Hutmeil to not be voting anyone.

I agree that I've been reactive this game. I don't think that's AI though? What's wrong with watching how the game goes to see who's scummy and who's not without talking much?

As I've already mentioned I don't like vote hopping. I'd rather vote when I'm convinced with my vote.

I'll give examples to demonstrate this point. In 243 Hutmeil begins his push on Juice after being promoted by Frog and encouraged in that direction.

Pushed and encouraged? If you read that post, there's no pushing or encouragement there, just a question for 3 people which I answered.

Later, in 345 hoppip encourages Hutmeil to place a vote - he quickly responds that he will do so later, and is indeed willing to place an E-1 vote on Juice. I think it's fairly shady how the development of this read was influenced so heavily by others - and it'd be one thing if this was an one time thing, but it's a consistent pattern.

Juice was scummy. Others found him scummy too. What's wrong with voting the scummiest read you have? Sure I reacted to hoppip's post but so what? He asked me to do something and I obliged. I guess I could have been more proactive but I don't think proactive = town. My last game, one of the most proactive players was scum. So no, proactive is not AI.

He only gives a readlist once I press him for one. He becomes more active after being pressured, and most of this is just responding to people talking to or about him. For example in 525 he's responding to Frog and me, and suggests Frog is scum for pushing him, but in response to Frog changing his read, Hutmeil changes his in turn. I challenge him on it - 613 - in a way that suggests he should still be scumreading Frog . And in reaction to this, hutmeil goes back to scumleaning Frog, and waffles that the action was "townie and scummy at the same time" - given he explicitly made a post calling Frog's change of mind townie, I have a very difficult time buying this. I think again, he is very reactive to the other players of this game, and it does not look like he's making an effort to find scum independently, but rather to avoid making any obvious mistakes and skating by.

Again, with all due respect, I don't think being reactive is AI. So when you ask me a readlist and I give you one, that's fine right (I mean you ask me for something and I oblige, I deserve a thank you, no??).

About that Frog exchange, I guess I better clarify since you've been reading it wrong. What I'm trying to say there is that both Frog!Town and Frog!Scum have reason to unvote. Frog!Town unvoting and admitting he was wrong makes sense since why vote for someone if you are wrong about that slot? Frog!Scum unvoting could be as you said an opportunistic move (to go look for a better wagon). So what I'm trying to say is Frog's action was NAI. I was just pointing out the 2 sides of the coin.

Hutmeil displays a lot of conventionally scummy behaviour which I believe is in fact actually scummy. This is definitely similar to the previous point, but there's not much content in his ISO and there's nothing that makes me feel like he's genuinely uninformed and trying to find scum. I believe his readslist post - 408 is a shining example of this. His reads don't have any serious level of thought or depth - players who are active and would make for difficult pushes like me are town, Juice who he has been encouraged to scumread and has been blatantly scummy is his only scumread, and everyone else 'gets a pass' with no real intent to dig into any of their posts or sort them.

I like that you said this. I wanted to see how people react to a 'shitty' readlist as you said. But having said that, I'm updating it to show how I read people now seeing that it looks like I'm about to be eliminated (E-1).

There's no intent to hammer but I've been in a game where people just hammer without claiming intent so I'm claiming VT.

hutmeil

- Confirmed Town. At least that's what my PM says.

Ausuka - She's my biggest adversary right now but I'm town reading her for that. Why? Because I agree that I look scummy. Not only that, she made an attempt to really sort out my slot. Sure scum could have done that too but I feel that her slot sorting is genuine. On the other hand, I've seen super towny slots before that turned out scum. So I also have my doubts there. If I were scum, I might be intimidated by this and kill her off. So if she survives late, I guess it's worth reevaluating that slot. But right now, I'm town leaning her because of what I said previously plus the fact she's the one who's been slot sorting the most.

DeltaWave - I think the slot is town. The posting seems natural and not forced (like how scum would post). And her posts makes sense to me.

Mapuche Never Die - The former Juice slot. A complete contrast. MND is active. I don't have an actual read yet on him though.
hoppip - No updated reads yet.
Eiralox - No updated reads yet.
Nero Cain - No updated reads yet.
Crescent - No updated reads yet.

BlueBloodedToffee - I think the slot was prodded? There was a time that the slot posted a lot of content but after that he's gone. Could be scum biding his time.

furtiveglance - A lot of people have been townreading this slot. I'm focusing though on how he's defending me. Like most of the players are scum reading me but he's strongly defending me, why?
Furtive!Town could be thinking we just finished our newbie game a few games ago and I'm playing cluelessly. Furtive!Scum could be setting himself up so that he gets townie credits once I flip green. Looking back to our newbie game (where he was town), his game was more fun and fluid. Right now he's playing too serious and the vibe is different. So I'm scumleaning him.

Greeting - This is like a small reunion for me, Greeting, Furtive and BBT (newbie game). As I've explained above, I feel that her play now is similar to here scum game before so I'm scum leaning her.

Frogsterking - The survey guy. I still don't see the point of the survey in this game but hey the survey was fun! Anyway, the slot has been all over the place, trying to push multiple wagons. He WAS in my wagon, then opted out when it didn't gain traction and now he IS in my wagon again. He tried to convince Ausuka that I was scummy only because I was "people pleasing" but when the attempt failed he went back at me. Right now, I'm scum reading him.

Nuclear Gandhi - I really don't get why he's able to post loads of content but not able to give a current read. I think that's a blatant scum strategy to buy time.

There's also some behaviour which I think is waffly in a scummy way. 243 is an early example of this. He calls the post 'interesting', and scumreads it while making sure to emphasise repeatedly how uncertain he is - it feels stilted to me.

I don't know what's wrong with that? That's just me thinking out loud. Was looking at Scum!Juice and Town!Juice.

A much better example comes later in 730 specifically his response to me. There are two things I want to highlight - firstly, he flips on Frog when Frog townreads him (of course this is convenient for scum Hutmeil to do) and when I push him on it he argues it's simeltaneously townie and scummy, and then repeats that line in this post. Frankly I think this is nonsense - if you're conflicted about a post made by someone you scumlean, it doesn't make sense to call that post 'townie' and not elaborate until pressed on it. I think the most simple explanation is that Hutmeil wanted to reconcile with Frog, an active player, to increase his odds of survival, but later believed he couldn't successfully justified this and tried to backtrack a little. It's not a great scum strategy but it makes more sense than any other town explanation.

I guess this is similar to the above (and I also explained this higher up).

Some people will probably respond to this by calling a lot of my concerns playstyle. I encourage them to look at hutmeil's completed games as town; they show a lot more independence, genuine scumhunting and overall vigour than he's shown here.

Meta is good but can be manipulated. You can play one way one game and play it differently in another.

Finally, I want to point out his opportunism. He pushes on Juice when that's the done thing, and seems to move on when it's not.

This is taken out of context. Everyone is scum reading him because he was blatantly scummy. When he was replaced, the logical thing to do was unvote to give the replacement a chance to redeem the slot.

When scum Gandhi is being pushed by a lot of people due to his frustrating playstyle Hutmeil is happy to pile on the pressure.

Yes sure because I agree with what others said and I wanted to voice out my frustrations too.

And more recently he's decided to voice a suspicion of Greeting, presumably in preparation to join the wagon. This isn't a massively strong point and I acknowledge all of these players have been scumread fairly widely - but it is convenient for scum Hutmeil that he's always willing and able to jump on the most viable miseliminations.

This is me being proactive. This is me giving out information without being prodded. So you find me scummy for being reactive and proactive???

Anyways, this is my Day 1 final PoE.

hutmeil
hoppip
Eiralox
Mohab500

Left out

Mapuche Never Die

and

Nuclear Gandhi

because both of them produced sufficient amounts of good content.

I am happy to eliminate anyone out of these four really and

hutmeil

is a good candidate. I don't think I really need to expand on the

hutmeil

case as everything has been said. His only case was Juice, and when he got replaced, he didn't build a second one.

@

Nero Cain

: if anyone is actively lurking this game, especially since Juice's replace-out, I would say it's

hutmeil

.

What?? Sure I'm being reactive like Aosuka said but I'm not lurking at all. I've been actively responding to questions and vote requests. And unfortunately I'm being scumread for this

I mean MAYBE its just something like a hut/bbt/ and one of hoppip/Eiralox and scum are doing kinda shit all but we'll see.

I sort of don't think Furt would blatantly town read his scum buddy but thats maybe a flip we could consider if the game isn't solved after ^ are flipped. Of course this all depends on hutmeil flipping scum and if he doesn't I think that raises both Furt and Ausuka's scum chances.

VOTE: hutmeil

someone should intent so he can claim and we have time to do something else if we wanted to.

At this point, I think I'm sure to be eliminated. If no one wants to hammer, I'll do it myself. When I flip green, make sure to look at my scum list plus Ausuka (if she lives long enough).

[Eiralox]

ok so much to read/ mohab was my towlock, crescent remains so.

My guts says greeting is a better vote than hutmeil. where's gandhi? me asking this has become a habit.

[Nero Cain]

just claim guy

[Nero Cain]

if you town flip then it makes it look like furt knew you were town and Ausuka gets a huge downgrade. Also, you were a MND counter so your town flip also makes him very sus

[Nero Cain]

oh you did claim VT...eh...

[furtiveglance]

I mean MAYBE its just something like a hut/bbt/ and one of hoppip/Eiralox and scum are doing kinda shit all but we'll see.

I sort of don't think Furt would blatantly town read his scum buddy but thats maybe a flip we could consider if the game isn't solved after ^ are flipped. Of course this all depends on hutmeil flipping scum and if he doesn't I think that raises both Furt and Ausuka's scum chances.

VOTE: hutmeil

someone should intent so he can claim and we have time to do something else if we wanted to.

Hold the phone....you're setting me up here, I don't want to get punished for being right.

[furtiveglance]

if you town flip then it makes it look like furt knew you were town and Ausuka gets a huge downgrade. Also, you were a MND counter so your town flip also makes him very sus

Ok stop it right now. Why are you excluding Greeting from this terrible analysis? They're currently the main cw.

[Eiralox]

oh you did claim VT...eh...

yeah i didn't see that, didn't read all recent stuff yet.

hutmeil was scummy/lurkey early but honestly i think we'll hit VT. Greeting seems disconnected to me, seemed like that whole game. idk something's off....

gandhi...... like a few others i can see town in gandhi. but not enough, nah not nearly. by tone one can frame gandhi as town, but by actions im where i was at: not engaged with current affairs.

mapuche is.... interesting, i having nothing more heavy to say there yet.

[furtiveglance]

Can we get off hutmeil, some bad people jumped on this.

[furtiveglance]

Greeting, Frogsterking, Nero ^^^

[Eiralox]

hutmeil's recent reads are very good in my opinion. also the callout of bbt, bbt has been on the sidelines this game and has given me a strange few vibes.

[Ausuka]

I'm interested to know what you think my playstyle is?

People pleasing? Hmmm, I don't know maybe it's just difference in cultures. From where I'm from we try to be accommodating and polite as possible. But that's RL. Maybe next time it shouldn't spill over in-game since it seems to be misconstrued as scummy behavior.

I mean, I'm not calling you scum for people pleasing. And I don't have much sense of your playstyle, this is my first time playing with you.

I'm at E-1 now, happy?

Yes!

I agree that I've been reactive this game. I don't think that's AI though? What's wrong with watching how the game goes to see who's scummy and who's not without talking much?

It's scummy because I don't think you were doing much of 'seeing who's scummy and who's not' - for most of the game you've just been blending in and making few waves, not really scumhunting.

Pushed and encouraged? If you read that post, there's no pushing or encouragement there, just a question for 3 people which I answered.

I think we both know that isn't all that was going on there. Frog was directly asking you and others to comment on what was on the surface a very scummy post for Juice. Frog and Delta both made noises indicating they found it scummy. The 'scum points' you replied with is the natural conclusion of what Frog's asking. There isn't anything wrong with this independently but it contributes to a worrying trend in which, again, you look more interested in blending in and not making waves than finding scum.

Juice was scummy. Others found him scummy too. What's wrong with voting the scummiest read you have? Sure I reacted to hoppip's post but so what? He asked me to do something and I obliged. I guess I could have been more proactive but I don't think proactive = town. My last game, one of the most proactive players was scum. So no, proactive is not AI.

Yes, other people found Juice scummy. That's what makes them such an easy target. I think consistently not being proactive is AI, yes. Nothing is a perfect indicator, and very proactive people are only somewhat more likely to be town than moderately proactive people, but if someone is constantly focusing their play around how others interact with them and view them, I'm going to scumread that. Again - I read your previous games to check and I didn't get this same feeling there.

Again, with all due respect, I don't think being reactive is AI. So when you ask me a readlist and I give you one, that's fine right (I mean you ask me for something and I oblige, I deserve a thank you, no??).

I think that as a broader trend it is - or more precisely, lack of proactiveness is scummy. Reacting to questions is fine, but when your content all comes at the prompting of someone else, that's concerning. I'd be less worried about it if your readslist was good!

About that Frog exchange, I guess I better clarify since you've been reading it wrong. What I'm trying to say there is that both Frog!Town and Frog!Scum have reason to unvote. Frog!Town unvoting and admitting he was wrong makes sense since why vote for someone if you are wrong about that slot? Frog!Scum unvoting could be as you said an opportunistic move (to go look for a better wagon). So what I'm trying to say is Frog's action was NAI. I was just pointing out the 2 sides of the coin.

Ok, but originally you called it 'townie'. That is not NAI. You went back on it when pressed and this doesn't really explain why.

I like that you said this. I wanted to see how people react to a 'shitty' readlist as you said. But having said that, I'm updating it to show how I read people now seeing that it looks like I'm about to be eliminated (E-1).

Eh... I'm kind of struggling to see why you would intentionally make a shitty readslist, and not really talk about it until now.

I agree that I look scummy.

This concerns me as well because this isn't the vibe I get from the rest of your post - you seem borderline indignant that I'm scumreading you at times.

I don't know what's wrong with that? That's just me thinking out loud. Was looking at Scum!Juice and Town!Juice.

I suppose there's nothing inherently wrong with it if you're town but it came off as hedgey and performative to me. All reads are uncertain, especially this early, so putting the emphasis on how uncertain you are rather than the read, and repeating yourself in this regard, feels off.

Meta is good but can be manipulated. You can play one way one game and play it differently in another.

Sure - but I don't see why town you would manipulate your meta here?

This is taken out of context. Everyone is scum reading him because he was blatantly scummy. When he was replaced, the logical thing to do was unvote to give the replacement a chance to redeem the slot.

Sure, that's fine. But I would have expected to see more of a focus on Mapuche from someone who was scumreading Juice exclusively for most of the game.

This is me being proactive. This is me giving out information without being prodded. So you find me scummy for being reactive and proactive???

No, I don't think making one scumread, which goes along with the trend of the thread, after already having been called out for not scumhunting proactively, is enough to count as proactive.

I mean, if you're town and genuinely feel cornered here, sorry. There's no perfect tell but I think you're our best shot at flipping scum today.

[Eiralox]

Can we get off hutmeil, some bad people jumped on this.

like in a weird world i can say that everyone on greeting is town. i havent towread you and gandhi but ever since the mohab vote i haven't felt ultra bad about the ppl who jumped on. so yeah defs 1 or more scum on hutmeil maybe.....

[Ausuka]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

[furtiveglance]

Hutmeil, you're right about me not being as fun and fluid this game. That just depends on my IRL mood, I don't force it if I'm not feeling it.

[Nero Cain]

Why are you excluding Greeting from this terrible analysis? They're currently the main cw.

Were they? kinda. Vc 1.8 has MND in the lead so in my opinion his wagon overtook his, the Greeting wagon just kinda sat there.

Greeting has a sorta scummy playstyle and I was scum reading them earlier. I think if hut townflips then Greeting should be a consideration for the chopping block.

[furtiveglance]

I need to go now but get off hutmeil and get on Greeting.

[Eiralox]

cos if hutmeil isn't scum and greeting is the unspoken vibe i've gotten from a few players(won't mention who yet) is a dire need to draw attention away from greeting.

[Nero Cain]

I need to go now but get off hutmeil and get on Greeting.

cos if hutmeil isn't scum and greeting is the unspoken vibe i've gotten from a few players(won't mention who yet) is a dire need to draw attention away from greeting.

no way scum is just these two and hut and they are trying to hard push a Greeting wagon, right?

[Eiralox]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

[Eiralox]

I need to go now but get off hutmeil and get on Greeting.

cos if hutmeil isn't scum and greeting is the unspoken vibe i've gotten from a few players(won't mention who yet) is a dire need to draw attention away from greeting.

no way scum is just these two and hut and they are trying to hard push a Greeting wagon, right?

no way

[Ausuka]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

I thought that you were joking because townlocking Mohab is really silly

[Eiralox]

Don't think inutile was scum, don't think Nero replaces in and starts pushing me in the way he did either

Also, since when is mohab a townlock lol

?

I locktowned Mohab in my first post. strange that you missed it?

I thought that you were joking because townlocking Mohab is really silly

i disagree. mohab/crescent is town.

[Greeting]

I am staying on

hutmeil

. Alternatively, I can vote out someone else from my PoE. But I won’t be going after the rest, at least not today.

I am not sure what is so scummy that I’ve done in this game. But the composition of my wagon isn’t really that great either so probably not much. I’m still townreading

furtiveglance

, but less so, because the level of certainty with which he’s pushing my wagon over one tell is concerning, especially that the push seems to be coordinated with

Eiralox

.

[Greeting]

Oh, and welcome,

Crescent

.