Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Alduskkel]

Having read the first 7 pages, here are my current opinions:
Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

mrfixij: The buddying with SL is kind of suspicious, and post 148 seems like trying to cast suspicion on someone without actually having a valid reason for suspecting them.

Panamon: Bad logic. Period.

Mastin: Probably the question on everyone's mind is what I have to say about my predecessor's posts. I personally think he was just a newbie, and his posts fit with that. I don't think anything he's done can be construed as a scumtell or a towntell.

orangepenguin: Might be a scumbuddy with mrfixij. Otherwise not very scummy.

Everyone Else: Not particularly scummy.

Remember, this is just my thoughts 7 pages in. I still have 5 more pages to read. I'll do that tomorrow.

=======================================

Page 13 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (0/5)
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (1/5) WeatheredClown
Moses le fou: (2/5) Battle Mage, orangepenguin,
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (2/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (2/5) Crysnia, mrfixij,

Not Voting: (1/9) Alduskkel,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
=======================================

[Alduskkel]

Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

EBWOP: To clarify, I feel this is scummy because it shows an eagerness to lynch without giving much of a chance for QM to respond. Every townie counts.

Oh, and SL, nice to see you again, even if you did help get me lynched last game.

[orangepenguin]

mrfixij and ME? Where did that idea come from?

[Alduskkel]

Oops, I meant mrfixij & Spring Lullaby. Post 150, just so you know.

[Moses le fou]

Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

EBWOP: To clarify, I feel this is scummy because it shows an eagerness to lynch without giving much of a chance for QM to respond. Every townie counts.

Oh, and SL, nice to see you again, even if you did help get me lynched last game.

I did say "Let's give QM time to RC," so I did suggest we should wait, but at that point, I was mostly getting impatient with QM not responding. So yeah, you're right on that one.

Meanwhile, on to BM: Switching from one vote to another because of a gut feeling is incredibly non-committal.

And now you're accusing me of not believing my own argument? Where on earth are you getting this stuff? Yeah, I'm appealing to other players. Because I believe you're scum, but can't lynch you without their votes. Thus, I am showing them instances in the day in which they have agreed with the same principles that I'm arguing and applying them to your case. Surely, you don't think that I expect to get you lynched entirely by letting you bait me, do you?

[Battle Mage]

I notice a lot of talk of strategy and people being "experts" on this game. I was under the assumption that this was a beginner game. Everyone who keeps assuming that they are more knowledgable about Mafia than the rest of us should 1)Stop beating up on the newbies who may not know much about the game and this is their first go 2)If you are really that advanced, then what the hell are you doing in the newbie game.

/rant

the word you seem to be looking for is: IC.

BM

[Battle Mage]

@Battle Mage

I disagree with Battle Mage enough in his defence of Panamon

and his tone to keep my vote where it is: I don't think he's really strengthened or weakened my suspicion.

He acknowledged the one point I mentioned against Panamon as a potentially valid scum-tell

. He certainly gets points for honesty, but I never had issues with Panamon's honesty.

This paragraph bugs me. First you claim that

RED

and then claim that

GREEN

.
If i acknowleged the one point you made against Panamon, how are you disagreeing with my defence of him? How can you consider me defending him atall?

Right now, the best direction seems to be getting Battle Mage to formally present a case against Moses le fou to justify his vote and going from there. Again, I don't see anything much against Moses so far, so before I consider voting for him, it would help if someone explained Battle Mage's vote better to me.

So you've kept your vote on me, but you are interested to follow my suspicions? Wtf??

The case on Moses is pretty self explanatory. He is flailing openly, is trying to push a case he neither believes in, nor has any merit, and he won't admit he is wrong. Hence, he is scum.

BM

Perhaps I was unclear. That you agreed I was responding to a potentially valid scum-tell is honest, but it's not part of a defence of him. You just said something like "I'd agree with you if I didn't know Panamon's alignment." If you consider that a good defence, then I disagree with you. If that was a non-defence, then I'd only move my vote from you to lynch somebody scummier.

That's not a defence. It's a fact.

Which leads to the second point. I'm not less suspicious of you and you're not near lynching, so I'm not inclined to move my vote. Of course it's possible that I'm wrong and of course there's another mafia player out there so I'm going to see if you dig anything up. If either you or your suspects flip, it might tell me something about the other's alignment. I don't see what's so illogical about keeping my vote on you while expressing interest in your scum-hunt. It seems wisest to me.

Again, i've gotta query why you are expecting your alleged 'main suspect' to scumhunt for you. It seems to me like you are happy to pursue a BM-lynch unless i can find a hotter wagon for you to join. There's nothing inherently wrong with watching who your suspect interacts with. But i am a bit wary of the fact that you seem keen to hold onto my coat-tails, so to speak.

IGMEOY

BM

[Battle Mage]

Meanwhile, on to BM: Switching from one vote to another because of a gut feeling is incredibly non-committal.

You should really look up the definition of 'non-commital'. A pocket dictionary is a worthwhile investment! lol

And now you're accusing me of not believing my own argument? Where on earth are you getting this stuff? Yeah, I'm appealing to other players. Because I believe you're scum, but can't lynch you without their votes.

If you believed in your case- No, if you HAD a case, the facts would speak for themselves. You are afraid to backtrack, and hence, are begging people to follow you blindly.

Thus, I am showing them instances in the day in which they have agreed with the same principles that I'm arguing and applying them to your case.

Lol, were you hoping that i'd be a fairly easy lynch? I guess popular support can change.

BM

[Battle Mage]

Having read the first 7 pages, here are my current opinions:
Moses le Fou: Not very scummy, except for this post:

Can we just lynch QuestionMark already? I think at this point we're at a crossroads and need the info gathered from a lynch. Let's give QM time to RC in case he's a doc or cop, but beyond that, it doesn't feel like anybody has anything new to say.

That was a while back, but I don't think he's done anything else that's scummy.

mrfixij: The buddying with SL is kind of suspicious, and post 148 seems like trying to cast suspicion on someone without actually having a valid reason for suspecting them.

Panamon: Bad logic. Period.

Mastin: Probably the question on everyone's mind is what I have to say about my predecessor's posts. I personally think he was just a newbie, and his posts fit with that. I don't think anything he's done can be construed as a scumtell or a towntell.

orangepenguin: Might be a scumbuddy with mrfixij. Otherwise not very scummy.

Everyone Else: Not particularly scummy.

Remember, this is just my thoughts 7 pages in. I still have 5 more pages to read. I'll do that tomorrow.

So, thus far, you dont find ANYONE very scummy?
I'll be interested to see your views on Moses Le Fou's case on me.

BM

[WeatheredClown]

I notice a lot of talk of strategy and people being "experts" on this game. I was under the assumption that this was a beginner game. Everyone who keeps assuming that they are more knowledgable about Mafia than the rest of us should 1)Stop beating up on the newbies who may not know much about the game and this is their first go 2)If you are really that advanced, then what the hell are you doing in the newbie game.

/rant

All newb games start out with a couple of experienced players to get the ball rolling.. additionally, we seem to be picking up more as newbs sub out.

On an unrelated note..
I may be changing my vote depending on what we hear from our new player..

[Alduskkel]

So, thus far, you dont find ANYONE very scummy?

Give me a chance, I still have 5 more pages to read. Plenty of time to pick up on scumtells.

[springlullaby]

Hi Aldusk glad to see you here, even though I contributed to your lynch, I think you made the newbie game really good fun!

Weathered Clown, what do you think of BM?

[Alduskkel]

I've finally finished reading, and it took me like 5 hours... here's what I have to show for it.

With regards to the argument between BM & Moses, I'm not really sure what to think. On the one hand Moses hasn't had the soundest logic, and I think BM makes some valid points against him. On the other hand, BM does seem more logical but I find his constant joking and friendliness to be somewhat akin to buddying up to all of us. And Moses does make some valid points against him. I'm kind of torn between who to believe, I'd like to hear more from them.

In the meantime, I think Crysnia is the most suspicious. She had bad reasoning for voting for Panamon: That he didn't vote, merely FoS'd. I hardly see that as a scumtell. (This was Post 40)

In Post 118, she casts suspicious on mrfixij because he's being "too helpful." Not only is this a fallacy ("too townie to be town"), but it also means that she's trying to get rid of a player she admits is helpful! That hardly seems productive.

As noted in Post 230, she only brings up the possible pairing of SL and mrfix after they attack her.

I think Crysnia has been behaving quite scummily, so

Vote: Crysnia.

Also,

FoS: mrfixij

for reasons also listed in 230.

In any case, I'm not really sure what your case on BM is, Moses. Could you explain to me what you're trying to say?

Finally, I don't see why L-2 is such a bad thing. I think voting someone to L-2 applies a healthy amount of pressure and if you really want to you can just unvote if they hit L-1. 2 votes won't just instantly happen.

[Crysnia]

As noted in Post 230, she only brings up the possible pairing of SL and mrfix after they attack her.

I would like to point out that I was the third person to point out the pairing.

It is day one. The only defense that I have is that I am a simple vanilla townie. My vote for Orangepenguin still stands.

[Alduskkel]

Okay, but the remaining 2 reasons still warrant a vote.

[Moses le fou]

How do I make solid points against BM without the soundest logic and without clearly making a case? I'm willing to clarify, but I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly.

[Battle Mage]

How do I make solid points against BM without the soundest logic and without clearly making a case? I'm willing to clarify, but I'm not sure what you're saying, exactly.

I agree....with Moses. 0.o

BM

[Crysnia]

Okay, but the remaining 2 reasons still warrant a vote.

Then obvious you really haven't read the past 12 pages. I've already addressed those two points.

You vote against me or you don't vote against me. I really don't care at this moment but my vote is staying where it is.

[Alduskkel]

First of all:

Then obvious you really haven't read the past 12 pages.

I've finally finished reading, and it took me like 5 hours.

I want no more of this talk, Crysnia. I put in a ton of time for this game.

In any case, I did look at your posts again with a closer eye, and I think your reasons for voting for Panamon are reasonably solid. So I guess

unvote

since the remaining reason isn't good enough to warrant a vote.

I've already addressed those two points.

Not really. You've pretty much only explained your vote for Panamon.

I'm going to take a better look at Moses' accusations against BM and maybe I'll come to a firmer conclusion.

[WeatheredClown]

Weathered Clown, what do you think of BM?

I think that BM is doing an admirable job. I haven't identified anything that he is doing as an obvious "slip up" but it is clear that he's working very hard to clear his name. This could just as easily be either because he is A) innocent or B) guilty. Given that, I've decided to go for simpler picks on day 1 in hopes that a pattern of guilt or innocence will immerge wrt BM.

Of course, having said all that, I would follow a BM vote if that's what we needed to move the game forward since its one of our few obvious possibilities. (Mastin seemed like another obvious one)

[Alduskkel]

I've taken a close look at both BM and Moses' posts again, and there cases against each other, this is the conclusion I came to:

-Panamon bandwagoned on Mastin for no good reason except for a "scummy vibe."
Neutral, see below.

-Rule Breaking could be either a townie trying to hard to scumhunt or a scum trying to stir up chaos.
Neutral

There's this:

Quick aside: Why isn't springlullaby backing me up on this? Didn't SL push on Schez basically because he has observed that he's only been tempted to break the rules when he's scum? Wasn't that the crux of SL's push against Schez?

Buddying up? Maybe trying to get your scum buddy to help you out?
+Scum to Moses Le Fou

Scummy statements like:

You clearly dont even believe your own arguments.

Oh yeah, I'm sure Moses doesn't believe his own arguments.
+Scum to BM

And then there's this:

Plus i think [Panamon's] reason was perfectly acceptable for a vote at this stage.

It was, in fact, acceptable at that stage in my opinion as it was still only page 2.
-Scum to BM


Overall I don't think Panamon himself has done anything scummy. But BM's response to accusations seems scummy.

To sum things up, BM has:
-Used Bad Logic, such as:

You claim as part of the case against me that putting someone at L-2 is scummy, and yet you put me at L-2, SOLELY BECAUSE OF THIS.

Not solely because of it, but also because Panamon's rule breaking too. And:

Rulebreaking is not scummy. You can take this to just about any experienced player on site, and they will tell you the same thing.

Do you have any proof of this claim?
-Cast suspicion on people without backing it up without evidence.

Scheherazade is giving me bad vibes. Will carry on reading tomorrow probably.

So, in conclusion, I don't think votes for Panamon were justified, but accusations against BM stirred up an interesting response which I think deserves a vote.

Vote: Battle Mage

Battle Mage, what say you to my accusations? Moses, what say you when I say that Panamon did nothing scummy?

[Moses le fou]

I have to admit that I wasn't 100% on Panamon. It was more like I was at 80% or so, but my next guesses were scarcely cracking the 50% mark (fijit and Crysnia, for the record). And it's not as much WHAT Panamon did as HOW he did it. I was concerned that mastin was at L-2 and looked back to figure out why. So I looked back to figure out why Panamon put him there. And he didn't give much of a reason. And while you might disagree, I do feel that L-2 is a precarious place to have a player for basically no reason. His lack of reasoning for voting, plus his nonchalance in going from Schez to mastin (which read as "I can't get this bandwagon going, maybe I'll jump on one that's already running"), plus his earlier incident with Panamon amounted to enough little things to convince me that he was our best bet.

[Alduskkel]

That's a pretty good explanation, Moses. I see where you're coming from, even if I don't agree that L-2 is a particularly precarious place.

[impatient]Still waiting on BM; he's already posted in several other places just today. I wonder why he hasn't posted.[/impatient]

[Alduskkel]

[impatient]O Battle Mage, Battle Mage! wherefore art thou Battle Mage?
-Spoken by Juliet (with slight modifications) in the play

Romeo and Juliet

by Shakespeare

BM has been posting a lot in other places... possibly avoiding the game purposefully???

And if the rest of the players have anything new to say, then I'd like you to say it. Only 2 posts yesterday...[/impatient]

[Scheherazade]

Let's just lynch him, then, and see what happens.