Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Eiralox]

Sol voted for bbt and in the same breath said they were ok with bbts read on me, which felt trolly.

hhmmm I guess, i think my definition of trolling is someone doing something entertaining, but i get how that can seem sus. didn;t notice it tbh ; 0

[Eiralox]

Also, the whole thread isn't unreadable now at all, but there are like two lots of at least three pages that turned my brain to jelly.

ikr ^.^ like i'm not always the sharpest pencil but im not dumb, yet a few places like i was trying to parse what i was reading an my brain just said 'nah u ain't gonna grasp this'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Shea and BBT's arguments are alot to unravel in terms of where logic begins and personality ends, but the core of the matter is that BBT is just, yeah kinda scummy. So here's to less flopping around like fish and more pushing votes and wagons.

Talk about what I've done that makes me scum? Interesting that your vote finally comes after I start looking to potentially vote you.

VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Scum. Opportunistic votes are opportunistic.

Also I was in that lost game, I'd rather not elim bbt day one

What does this mean, Bella? Can you expand a little?

It's a bit hard to understand some of this post but, basically: Only a handful of the players are particularly active, and they all did not particularly agree with eachother on a wagon at the time (this has sorta changed since). So this one, in the interest of actually getting something pushed today, something it agrees with already, votes BBT. Frogster is still high in it's scumleans, and it intends to push that letter tomorrow as it wants to stick with the BBT wagon, to both actually get a wagon going and because it does sus BBT. That's it's logic there.

This is scummy - a great way to absolve responsibility for being on a wagon. Again, this vote came after my brief conversation with Grib regarding voting HPE. I'm not sure if both Eira and HPE can be scum though because they were pretty close together when piling on my wagon and that seems less likely to come from two scum slots.

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

My town read on Bella comes from playing with Bella an awful lot. She was to the point with early reads and I think this is much more likely to come from town!Bella.

Understood. I’ll sheep this read with low certainty.

Like, in what world do town go 'Hey, they guy is using really bad reasoning to scum read me so he must be town'

I really don’t think you’re engaging with TSQ’s actual reasons for voting you? TSQ just isn’t voting you because of your overdefensive post, he’s voting you because of your bad reaction to his pointing out that overdefensive is a bad scumreading tool.
VOTE: BBT
I’m not fully caught up but I’m willing to vote here for now.

These two posts one after the other have blown my mind and makes me want to reeval my town read of Solway. What is going on here?

I don't need to engage with TSQ because the premise of his push was awful and he knew that. If you push someone for bad reasons, you should expect push back. TSQ tried to set me up with some 'gotcha' moment, it's standard scum play.

What I really want to know is why BBT’s read on Bella meta-based.

I know, I kind of hate it but it is what it is. I have played with Bella a fair bit and I suppose some meta creeps in whether I want it to or not. I find Bella quite fence-sitty as scum and a lot more to the point as town. She could easily use this knowledge against me to fool me (which is why I don't like meta) but I'm good with that read for D1 at least. I should also emphasise that I have 0 confidence in being able to read Bella, I don't know whether that's because she always seems to be scum and I instinctively want to town read her, or what, but yeah.

Eiralox could be scum. #hottake

Yup

Bella isn't as fence sitting as i originally thought reading that last post. I don't like how few reads she seems to have any committed to but i think thats a problem with a general lack of not being as engaged to read the thread and me seeing "the game is unreadable" and getting a little annoyed reading that.

Anyways would also support the HPE wagon right now.

How do you find Eira? I find almost every single post of his to be like 'could be this, could be that and I don't really know'. He doesn't actually commit to anything, outside of Aisa being unshakeably town which he still hasn't explained.

Ok why? I've already questioned sol's and grib's logic on 517, so idk why u think their reasons re: Erynis there are solid?

Because I don't have a particularly solid read on the slot and some pressure might help with that. Since then, I really don't like their recent posting regarding voting me and their reasoning for it.

From the start this has been about my response, and your reaction to it. I admitted that yeah i cAMe off as bit defensive there, so your initial sorta sarcastic reply i can chalk up to a knee-jerk to my... cockiness, acerbism, i guess? So one of the few places i've felt in line with bella, excepting their defense of Asia, is when they said you and the status quo sorta feel like siblings fighting, but i'm not even gonna consider classing such thread clutter as TvT tho. Where i've tried to follow the tsq/toffee chaos my brain started feeling gooey, so meh. I think the one thing that stands out to me is you calling Eira/Quo, cos i never got the feel that they defended me and i don't think you adressed this when i asked you about it.

They defending you by attacking me.

there are a whole lota meta reads this game, guess i'll have to get used to it.... hopefully things even out later once folk come to grip with each other but whatever, to each their own I guess. Basically you and bella have been townreading each other pretty strongly thus far, and i'm not sure how i feel about it. I'm pretty much on board with sol that bella's posts don't feel particularly towny or scummy to me, early on they felt sussy but they've made a few points that have some logic behind 'em so eh. I think in terms of engagement i'll definitely place them above N_M and Enchant, but town?

I get you've asked me to explain on Asia, i'm coming to that, but what i'm looking for here is some expansion on bella, not merely 'meta and early reads' but recent Bella as well

As I said earlier, my read on Bella isn't super strong but it's good enough for D1. Now, Aisa please?

Bbt i've had a few moments we're i've felt they were being sincere under pressure, i struggled to follow what they're saying at times but I guess that goes for TSQ as well, but on general tsq carries on in a more methodical and town-seeming manner. I think the main thing on toffee is that strange tsq/eira pairing, and maybe strange vibes from asking me to talk about asia? which im coming to hopefully so meh. I earlier had a hunch on bbt/elements when they defended you(or i thought they did) so that's a pairing i won;t discount rn.

You're really struggling to explain this town read, huh?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: HPE

[Eiralox]

@eir, come talk to me, not about me?


I think fire could be town and frog could be scum. I low key think aisa might be town but it's a meta read and not a good one. Grib can be town. In annoyed no one engaged me on hpe. I find the back and forth between grid/tsq/fire/frog/a little bbt soeta unreadable' because it looks like a pissing contest and I never get anything out of them.

So, there's some stuff to get your teeth into

P-edit enchant could well be scum. I don't want nm ans enchant to be scum but I've played with both of them recently and won in a scum team with nm, they could both be doing more

oh lol missed this post XD

yeah i'm feeling pretty good on fire. i'm lost on frogster tbh, i rarely self meta but i'll say last game i correctly called them as town post 1 then later fully believed they're scum during their miselim so honestly a slot i'm hanging a bit back from atm. I haven't really so far felt any reson to doubt myself on Asia, i'll try to be back later toady after this prolific round of posting to flesh out my read, so far they've felt pretty much level-headed and open-minded tbh, which are traits i always like for town. grib i think i'll put in third for my prob towns at this point behind Asia and fire, i haven;t always followed their logic but so far i'm feeling they've held a very broad and considerate view of the game, pushing into various places.

RE: the pissing contest, i went after u for saying thred unreadable but yeah like i said a few times, and as u said that u meant, a few places in this game i was like 'wtf am i reading i'm not getting anything AI out of this'.

I also like N_M and Ecnhant >.< so honestly with you that i hope they're not scum. way too hard for me to guess either way at this point tho tbh


anyway i think imma break. gonna try to be back later 2dAY, out for now : P

[Elements]

Anyway, why are you voting Asia for a third time?

I'm sheeping TSQ whenever he's on BBT, then Aisa is the person I want to flip most after that

[Grib]

Honestly, I wouldn't mind flipping Aisa. It's not a great reason, but I don't know why but I'm struggling to pin down a definitive feel for her posts. I keep coming away with could be scum could be town shrug.

Have a couple hours free so making my way through the thread now, if anyone's around and wants to poke me.

[Enchant]

Who the hell is Ecnhant

[Grib]

UNVOTE:

On a reread, I don't really want to kill BBT.

[Elements]

Why not?

[Grib]

Looking back now, I think Shea's "catch" on BBT would have been waaay more airtight if he could've demonstrated a pattern of behavior, rather than aruging BBT is scum because of one singular reaction test he failed. It's one thing to be like, okay BBT's response to this reaction was on the scummier side - but I think it would've been incredibly valuable to take it a step further. What about BBT's earlier posts is similar to how he reacted to the bait? Or what other questions could one ask him that'll confirm or deny this assumption? Immediately revealing the gambit and then shading all of BBT's posts after the fact made future analysis way harder to parse imo.

[Grib]

I'm also coming back around to a townread on Bella, which is only tangentially related.

[Grib]

I'm having a pretty time sorting reads. There's too many slots where I'm like, yeah their content isn't great but I think they could be villagers because they don't seem to care how they're read? Which is pretty annoying.

For example, I want to townread Elements because they clearly don't give a shit and had a fair amount of votes on them for most of Day 1. And they've had a couple of detailed takes that I agreed with, or that I felt were aimed to clear things up rather than cast doubt or confusion.

I have mixed feelings like that on them, HPE, Solway, and Eira. I'm completely ignoring NM and Enchant, don't really know what to do about them now or ever, unless they decide to start playing seriously Day 2 or 3.

[Grib]

ebwop: pretty *hard time

[Grib]

VOTE: Solway Firth

I triple checked to make sure this wasn't E-1. I did skim the recent pages this morning and saw someone asked me why I put BBT at E-1. That was just a derp on my part. I counted five votes, placed my vote, and then had the number five in my head so I thought that was the fifth vote when it was most definitely the sixth.

[Grib]

I have an appointment coming up in a sec, so I'm gonna dip for a handful of hours and then my V/LA will be over.

[HighPrincessErinys]

Why do you think Enchant is Town, Frogster?

I'm shamelessly and fearlessly abusing meta

yeah i want more than this tbh. same with the status quo going 'enchant tends to lurkscum', i'm not onboard with this. now i don't want to get into an argument tbh, i get folk meta adn that it works for them, but at this point enchant is so null to me that anyone putting them above or below the line is gonna catch my sightballs.

Right now tbh enchant's hyper focus on Asia might shift them slightly red for me, but that alone isn't near enough for me to casing on rn. So i'm on board with what Asia's asking here, and I get you've answered the question but personally i'd like to hear more on enchant town! than 'cos meta'.

Definitely echo Eira's discontent with the meta going around. Really wanna see more "in the moment" reasoning instead of defaulting to meta knowledge.

You've both focused on the least important bit of that sentence, I don't know if i'm just ridiculously unclear.

I thought its initial take was really surface, that's why I mentioned the scum agenda of making the thread unreadable, that it didn't feel like it had engaged with. My main point was about it's further reads and vote: it felt like it was making two steps toward a read, then walking it back, etc. Do you not get really self conscious vibes from their posts? I can find more in its iso! They don't feel organic to me at all.

Genuinely would like some explanations/examples about what you mean? This one can't really see what you're talking about personally but that might like. Be the issue. It's, either way, not particularly

trying

to one step forward two steps back it's own reads :>

Shea and BBT's arguments are alot to unravel in terms of where logic begins and personality ends, but the core of the matter is that BBT is just, yeah kinda scummy. So here's to less flopping around like fish and more pushing votes and wagons.

Talk about what I've done that makes me scum? Interesting that your vote finally comes after I start looking to potentially vote you.

This one already elaborated some on why it susses you in 426 and 469. Could be boiled down to just "bad vibes", if you want. There's not an element of OMGUS here either, it just genuinely scumreads you and figured "yeah, frog wagon ain't taking off". So, onto it's next scumread who already has a growing wagon.

It's a bit hard to understand some of this post but, basically: Only a handful of the players are particularly active, and they all did not particularly agree with eachother on a wagon at the time (this has sorta changed since). So this one, in the interest of actually getting something pushed today, something it agrees with already, votes BBT. Frogster is still high in it's scumleans, and it intends to push that letter tomorrow as it wants to stick with the BBT wagon, to both actually get a wagon going and because it does sus BBT. That's it's logic there.

This is scummy - a great way to absolve responsibility for being on a wagon. Again, this vote came after my brief conversation with Grib regarding voting HPE. I'm not sure if both Eira and HPE can be scum though because they were pretty close together when piling on my wagon and that seems less likely to come from two scum slots.

Don't see how this is a "absolving responsibility" when this one fully and clearly says it's got a bead on you and isn't just compromising. Stating "I scumread this person" and then hopping on a wagon for them because you scumread them doesn't sound like a lack of responsibility for being on the wagon to this one. And again, not really an OMGUS.

VOTE: Solway

Still wondering about this sudden change of heart considering you were the most vocal against BBT, Shea.

[Thestatusquo]

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

[Aisa]

Yeah Grib hasn't actually explained why they "don't want" to vote BBT, just said that TSQ's catch is not strong. Though that's pretty similar to the reason I feel bad voting BBT, so ??? maybe Grib is still town.

Given the little-to-no interest for an Enchant wagon I will abandon that idea for now. By the way, I agree Ench is not necessarily the easiest to read, but I wouldn't have suggested a wagon there if I didn't seriously feel they could be scum. I have no interest in starting a N_M wagon right now, for example.

Coming up next on this ISO: why YOU should consider putting your vote on Solway.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

HPE, in both 426 and 469 you're far from decisive in your read.

In 426, you say 'but this one does also see it as potentially being not very AI. Pretty half and half on if it's scummy or not overall.'

In 469, you say 'Mostly think that TSQ has something of a point. Not a decisive one, but something of one' as well as 'Your actual defense, to this one, feels like it could be either a town or scum defense, so it doesn't think this adds up to too much in it's book, for now.'

Is there something that happened to significantly increase the certainty of your read?

[HighPrincessErinys]

HPE, in both 426 and 469 you're far from decisive in your read.

In 426, you say 'but this one does also see it as potentially being not very AI. Pretty half and half on if it's scummy or not overall.'

In 469, you say 'Mostly think that TSQ has something of a point. Not a decisive one, but something of one' as well as 'Your actual defense, to this one, feels like it could be either a town or scum defense, so it doesn't think this adds up to too much in it's book, for now.'

Is there something that happened to significantly increase the certainty of your read?

Beyond that one doesn't need perfect certainty to vote, this one wasn't saying those posts decisively outlined why, just elaborated on it's reasoning at those times. "Fully" might have been an overstatement but "clearly" wasn't, and those two words pertained to it's actual post where it votes you (711) and states that yeah, it's scumreading you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Right, and I asked why your read had developed into a vote and you linked posts from 14 pages ago as if that somehow correlates to how your read developed. You haven't answered my question.

[Grib]

I don't like gribs votes moving with momentum rather than actual changes. He's now reevaluated BBT twice and both times nothing had changed except the momentum of the wagon.

Well, people are complaining about consolidating and not having a last minute rando wagon. Let’s be real, the only real momentum the BBT wagon had was due to your case, and I decided that wasn’t enough for me. I paid more attention to the people saying that BBT often gets flack for playstyle.

Anyway, Solway has momentum, that slot isn’t villagery enough imo, there were some takes I agreed with but I also massively feel like he’s making easy posts. Which is ??? when he did say that this game his thoughts are much more fleshed out than he usually plays.

[Grib]

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think I reevaluated BBT twice? I voted him fairly early, then Shea did his reaction test, I stayed to see what would happen, I moved to HPE at some point, and then switched back to BBT because Shea shaded me for vanity voting.

Shea shades a lot tbh.

[Aisa]

Why

you

should be voting Solway Firth if you are not doing so already! Great timing, Grib.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

I’m pretty sure I responded to your questions, unless I’m missing something. I’m not voting BBT because I don’t scumread BBT enough to vote him.

You said they're you're highest scum read????

Yes. And I’m not voting him. What is wrong with that?

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

My town read on Bella comes from playing with Bella an awful lot. She was to the point with early reads and I think this is much more likely to come from town!Bella.

Understood. I’ll sheep this read with low certainty.

1. This apparent contradiction between his scumreading BBT and deciding to sheep the read on Bella. This is an instant classic, a must-include in any Solway case between now and the end of this game.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

Then why aren't you voting there? Why are you ignoring my questions?

I’m pretty sure I responded to your questions, unless I’m missing something. I’m not voting BBT because I don’t scumread BBT enough to vote him.

You said they're you're highest scum read????

Yes. And I’m not voting him. What is wrong with that?

...Why would you sheep BBT's read on Bella if they're your top scumread?
VOTE: Solway Firth

Why is that even remotely scummy

BBT says he has a meta read on Bella

Idc if BBT is my top scumread, if he presents a good case as to why someone is town or scum and I agree with it I’ll sheep it

It’s not like if scum is townreading someone that means their townread is automatically scum

2. This "what's scummy about this?" reaction seems scum-indicative to me. If Solway is Town, there is some chance he has an actual thought process behind the questioned posts and that he decides the make that thought process explicit when asked about it. We're not in that universe, so, yeah.

Spoiler:

I am fully caught up. My most confident scumread right now is BBT.

3. He seems focused on stating and commenting on scumreads. ISO him and you'll see what I mean. I think there may exist a certain brand of not-very-experienced scum player who feels the need to Fake Scumreads and Achieve Miseliminations. This possibility may be supported by his tone in posts such as the quoted one: his tone feels quite controlled, as opposed, to, say, "I think BBT might be scum". ...I feel like I'm reaching a bit here, YMMV.

Spoiler:

I can see what bbt was saying though? Tsq kinda jumped on a thing and then was like 'haha you did a thing' when he responded. It felt like siblings more than s v s or s v t. I don't think tsq is scummy for what they did and I feel they believe in it, I still think it's lame and weird.

If you're scum, consider me pocketed. Again.

I don’t understand BBT strong townread on Bella. Bella’s ISO is some posts complaining about the game state and a bit fairly good content. I don’t see anything that jumps out as a shining beacon of towniness, Bella’s tone seems neither towny nor scummy and her analysis isn’t very deep.

Do you think that means BBT is faking the read on Bella?

Yes, I think that is possible. To elaborate more, when I disagree with someone’s read, that doesn’t make them scum. But here it looks as if BBT is trying to draw a townread on Bella despite her lack of real content.

The posts leading up to his stated sread of BBT seem somewhat uncharitable. I agree there's nothing BBT couldn't have made up in his read on Bella, but a more usual town reaction might be "huh? what is this?" imo. BBT's post specifically reads "consider me pocketed

again

", so I think it would be fairly clear even to someone not familiar with site culture that what's happening here is that two players are familiar with each other. The progression from "BBT is faking this read" to "oh I will sheep this with low certainty" feels, uh, possibly disingenuous.

I could be wrong if this is just Solway's personality, but, uh, that's always how it is I guess. I also think that if Solway is scum they've shown some skill in responding to pressure and answering questions, but this is true of almost everyone in this game, so the bar for what is a convincing, towny response is raised.

Finally, let me drive my point home with a good old meme ^^

Spoiler: Meme