Mini Normal 2283 - Game Over!

[Cat Scratch Fever]

VC 1.15

With 13 players, it takes 7 to make a decision. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-10-18 11:30:00).

VC

Aisa [5]:

Firebringer [80], Enchant [721], Elements [746], Not_Mafia [813], Thestatusquo [822]

Solway Firth [5]:

Frogsterking [595], Aisa [735], Grib [789], BlueBloodedToffee [843], HighPrincessErinys [844]

BlueBloodedToffee [2]:

Eiralox [713], Solway Firth [733]

HighPrincessErinys [1]:

Bellaphant [716]

Not voting [0]:

[Thestatusquo]

Fwiw I'm pretty willing to flip either of sol or aisa. I think aisa's response to my pressure was pretty good.

[Thestatusquo]

I still think BBT is scum but I'm not really seeing the votes there.

[Thestatusquo]

My waffling is due to the fact that I'm not sure I see a world where aisa or soles to is scum with bbt and I'm still pretty confident BBT is scum.

[Eiralox]

I want to put HPE in my towncore. I agreed with whoever said it was "blowing with the wind" and in some sense it still feels like an apt description in that often Erinys goes with a point someone else brought up first. However, even when all it is doing is arguably sheeping someone else's read it explains its thought process in a way that feels pretty reasonable. The explanations are really helpful and make it sound like its reads are real.

Beyond that, I feel a bit lost. There is a world in which the scumteam is something like Not_Mafia, Enchant, and Solway Firth, and if we are in that world I am still doing alright. If we are not in that world, however, then I am fast running out of people to scumread. Even Elements feels kinda like good vibes, although obviously my brain is telling me I'd be a fool to townlock her for, uh, being generally unable to explain her read on me.

I guess it could be some of BBT/Bella/Frog, and who knows what alignment Fire is, but ugh.

Maybe I'll just chill on the Frog wagon for a while. VOTE: Frogsterking

Okay, Solway, it turns out you weren't

actually

answering any of my questions in 576. I was correct about that in 577. Then I went and made a mess of everything with 579 and 580.

But you've since been answering my questions, so we're good!

Also, maybe I'm underestimating how much mafia experience you have, but way to town it up in the space of about 10 minutes.

I will now exile myself from the thread for the night before I make 30 more posts. Bye~

BBT: Urrggghhhh this moment probably had to come sooner or later but I was hoping it would be later.

I still think Eiralox is probably town. It did cross my mind yesterday that if they're not then I'm making an absolute fool of myself. I tried looking for a scum game but didn't find any.

Things that might make me think they're scum eventually: admittedly they could be hiding and looking like they're doing things by sheeping a lot of the things I say. However, I feel that this is mitigated by the fact they've produced some independent content e.g. by talking to you by now.

Evidence that makes me think they're town that I haven't commented on yet: the promising to elaborate on a read and then needing at least a couple of real-life days to do is something I've seen them do before as town.

I still feel their play is more consistent with them being town than them being scum.

Yeah i just don;t see how any of these posts woulld more likely come from scum. from page 1 Aisa has felt green to me, and thruout that tone has been pretty consistent..........

For instance in above posts there's definitely solving being done, independent read-forming, but overall this early i don;t find that particularly indicative from anyone, it;s something scum can adeptly fake. but me saying 'yeah i felt it from the start' is probably a nothing-burger so late in, and as Asia is at 5 votes, i feel i need to speak up.

I mean read through above posts and tell me why they come from scum: note how Aisa keeps an open mind on various things, and even deciding upon a course is still conscientious enough to look at it from another angle, to play devil's advocate. Post 499 makes it pretty clear to me that Aisa is still feeling quite uncertain at that point, lost as they stated, and i don;t think that's a tone that can be easily faked nor is it one more likely to come from scum. And i fail to see an agenda in that post, for instance, reasons are set out for and against elements and erynis being town, which seems way more like something someone would do from a towny perspective?

#587 there's just no way i can feel this tone coming from scum? this seems very considerate and open-minded, which is exactly the vibe i've been getting from the start and which leaves me so confused as to why Aisa is now even at -2. like i think i've seen people think Aisa has agenda or something but posts like these, where they push while also alerting others about their own fallibility, come off as exactly sans agenda to me.


And again in #504: If Aisa were scum i don;t get why they would be posting this, or why they would have acted like that toward me on page one tbh. I honestly don;t understand what utility there would be for scum! Aisa to try something like that on me, it's a risk way i see it, and the fact that aisa has never backed down from going with their early feels on me, just as i haven;t on them, is A whole lotta town equity in my mind. i mean if someone feels green on me so early, then absolutely sticks with it, i just don't get the scum angle.

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Even tho i do feel good on fire, the fact that they and enchant are still in the same tunnel they've been basically all game , and all the reASONS i've seem from them are.... watery at best, just doesn't vibe well with me. I'm not sure how i feel on Solway here, mostly so far they've flown under my radar, i admit them sheeping bbt on bella did rAISE an eyebrow when others pointed it out, and aisa brought up a logical-seeming case but with my brain's current state i'm not even gonna try and dissect. my vote stays i guess, don't really get bbt's angle
-------

So I wanted to do way more than quote three posts RE: Aisa then talk mostly about tone/nature, but i hope what i said makes some sense.


Please don't kill Aisa, so far i really haven't seen any stellar reasons from anyone for being on them tbh. I want to expand this tommorow, like in 9-12 hours, i'm spent rn and imma sleep. saw a few posts i feel i do need to answer but not now.

so imma clock out, good night and sweet dreams ya'll >.>

[Thestatusquo]

I'm vibing with that post a lot.

[Thestatusquo]

I also think eirolox is town. They're not here a ton but when they are here there is a depth of analysis to their posts that makes me feel like they're really trying to discern alignment.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can you talk about why you so strongly town read Aisa in the early game as opposed to posts that literally came hundreds of posts after you stated your read?

[Bellaphant]

My issue with fire is that they are still on the same vote from page three. Like, that's just fucking weird.

[Thestatusquo]

Part of my issue with grib is that basically all his analysis seems completely on the surface, and he keeps demanding people justify themselves to him without really giving much justification of his own outside of very baseline stuff.

Like ironically if I'm looking for someone in this thread who is trying to make sure he has Reasons TM for everything he's doing and every progression it's grib, the problem is I haven't really found any of those justifications to be compelling.

[Thestatusquo]

My issue with fire is that they are still on the same vote from page three. Like, that's just fucking weird.

How would you expect town firebringer to act if he still thinks the person he voted on page 3 is scum?

[Thestatusquo]

I went back and reread Aisa and grib's isos.

Hard for me to put a finger on it but there's just an earnestness to Aisa's tone that makes me town read them.

It's possible that could be me getting snowed but I just don't read it as someone who is being deceptive.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Grib

[Thestatusquo]

I'm willing to switch to solway at DL if we need my vote. I'm not willing to switch to Aisa.

My preference is Bbt and then grib in that order.

[Thestatusquo]

Actually that makes no sense

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BBT

Theres a wagon here already.

[Grib]

I don't think not being compelled by my reasons is at all the same thing as my stances not being as justified as you (or anyone) would like them to be. You can think someone explained themselves well or has good reasons for thinking a certain way, and still disagree with the premise of what they're saying. I just think you're conflating the two.

I'm happy to elaborate on anything I've said that's lacking.

[Thestatusquo]

My problem wasn't lack of elaboration, my problem was that I think your thought processes are surface level and not actually conducive to finding scum.

[Grib]

Can you demonstrate what you mean?

[Thestatusquo]

Like I don't think you're displaying very much critical thinking with how you're approaching getting reads. From the start of the game your approach has seemed to be to point at something that's slightly weird and scum read it vaguely without the next critical step of asking "is this more likely to come from scum or town"

[Thestatusquo]

I mean your attack on frogsterking in the early game, your attack on me based off the "weirdness" of me posting after frogster supposedly called me out, your insistence on continuing to press me on a HPE read that I am clearly not interested in talking more about.

[Grib]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

[Grib]

So basically what you're saying is that I am scum because I'm only pushing out surface-level reads? Is there anything else, or another layer to that so I don't oversimplify?

[Thestatusquo]

I am saying you're scum because I don't think you're actually scum hunting. None of your takes feel like the takes of someone who is actually trying to figure out the scum because I think their surface level nature demonstrates a lack of curiosity towards whether or not you're right but rather is concerned with simply being able to point to a reason.

[Thestatusquo]

But I did give reasons for why the things that jumped out at me felt more scum-indicative than not. You just disagreed with them.

I tend to stick with asking "would town do this, yes or no?" rather than asking if scum would do it, because I find that scum players are, in general, more likely play in ways that defy expectations. But I also spent most of my mafia games in two communities and played with the same overlapping group over and over again, so there was a higher tendency for zany scumplays.

See, here's the thing: I do not think you're actually doing a lot of "would town do this yes or no."

Again, perfect example is your picking at the me and frogster thing. You didn't stop to think at all whether it would make any sense at all for me and frogster to purposefully do that as scum but it was a WEIRD THING you could point out to look like you were trying to find our alignment.

[Grib]

That's kind of a contradiction, no?

Even if you think the way I approach the game lacks critical thinking, I think it's pretty obvious that I'm trying to understand other players and leave little room for misunderstandings, or misconstruing their posts. You said yourself that I "demand" justification from other people, and that is precisely why. And I feel like you're not making that connection on purpose, which is one reason I'm entertaining a world where you're scum.

Do you feel the same way about my read on Solway?

[Thestatusquo]

Your scum team of me HPE and solway is another example of just...complete lack of critical thinking. You think my play as scum would be to spend the whole day just saying my buddy is town for no reason and refusing to explain when asked? Why? In what world would scum act that way.

It's like you're stopping at baseline level of "I think HPE is scum, shea defended HPE, therefore shea must also be scum" without thinking that the world where I stick my neck on the line for a barely posting scum buddy for no reason and then steadfastly refuse to explain is essentially nil.